Forum:First Chamber

__NEWSECTIONLINK__ In Lovia, Congress is the national legislative body and the most powerful branch of government. The First Chamber is one of the two chambers of Congress, in which the Members of the Congress propose bills and debate them. The Second Chamber is where they are eventually voted. Paradoxically, Lovia does not have a bicameral parliament: there is only one group of MOTCs that both debates and votes the proposals. For the current composition of Congress, see this.

As prescribed by Article 6 of the Constitution, all Lovian citizens "may write and propose motions to the Federal Law", that "are presented to the Members of the Congress in the First Chamber." The MOTCs' duty is to "read the motion and form a personal opinion about it. In order to obtain the support of a majority of Members of the Congress, changes may be proposed in the First Chamber." If a majority is likely to be found, the proposer will move the bill to the Second Chamber for a vote.

The First Chamber is not a popular assembly where all citizens can express their personal interests. Polling the population ought to happen outside of Congress.

Composition of Villanova I Government
Before we do that i thank you all, and we need to vote on one proposal, Condenseing the departments to help our congress and future congresses. So here's what I think.

068. Condensement bill
Ruling Monarch - Kept

Prime Minister - Kept

Culture/Eductaion/Heritage combines with REAC and NMS - Even though these two are already mostly the same CEH would take over REAC so when it's unactive like now it could just take over all educational issues. With NMS all issues that would have been done by NMS are done by CEH.

Energy and Environment - Okay, kept

Foreign Affairs - Combine with Tourism and Lesuire. Job would also to promote vactions and things like that. Sports would be done by other users.

IAT - would also take over Transportation and be called "Economy and Transportation"

Justice - Dismantled. Congress can make proposals for judges and appoint them.

Finance - Combines with Welfare and the Federal Charity Fund, and would be called "Finance and Welfare"

So any comments? Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:18, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

This sounds good, but there's something weird about it that I can't put my finger on. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:27, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

The ruling monarch isn't our monarch anymore. So, what to do? Aesopos 12:35, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Aesopos, we have a Line of Succession. His closest living relative should take over the throne - since he has no son or any issue his brother will take over or his nephew. The Master's Voice 12:39, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Dimitri abdicated? Well, I guess Alexander takes over now. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:39, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

He's even more unactive! Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:43, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Well, Dimi was active two days ago, so let's wait this out. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:45, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

True but let's focus on this first i need some straightfoward feedback. Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:48, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

It seems fine. Could we discuss (067) Hamlet Act Revision? No one seems to have seen it. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:53, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Whenever a new government comes in Lovia is kinda tradition to approve the new department heads, but i kinda slowed it down with the condesement act. After we approve the heads that'll be the first thing we get to! Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:55, May 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * If you're going to "hand out" the departments, would it be possible for me to get Culture, Heritage and Education? HORTON11  13:45, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * It is tradition for the PM to work out a proposal and Congress has to approve it. I'm sure Marcus will count in our preferences as far as possible. 14:20, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Basically i'm not going to argue over it but if you want a position i'll give it. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:23, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

As my favorite author (approximately) said, the reports of my abdication are greatly exaggerated. 17:18, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Official Composition of Villanova I Government
Here it is!


 * Culture, Education and Heritage - Justin Abrahams


 * Energy and Environment - Lars Washington


 * Foreign Affairs - Yuri Medvedev


 * Economy and Tansportation - Nathaniel Scribner


 * Finance and Welfare - William Krosby

that's basically it. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:40, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Cool. Taking this to second chamber. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:23, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Just letting you know we should always wait a day for discussion, somtimes even a week. But due to very active attitude around here it's fine. Love the exictedness though! Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:31, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

We don't really need to discuss this. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:40, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * I, I. G. La Blaca, on behalf of the UNS and the rightists of Lovia, demand a department too... All departments are currently given to leftists, which is not really a proper way of sharing, is it? The Master's Voice 20:27, May 2, 2011 (UTC)

The PM gets to select it. I guess he doesn't want the UNS's ideas in Lovia. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:30, May 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * He considered us worthy of joining his congress, then he should also consider us worthy of taking up an office. Congress has the authority to remove me from office if they desire to do so, so I see no problem at all. The Master's Voice 20:31, May 2, 2011 (UTC)

Not to be "that guy" but i'm keeping it real. In the US for example all presidents stock there cabinets full with firends with the same view points and ideals. These departments really do nothing more but propose bills which would come from there departments, which you could do anyway. Also your a facist, since when do you like sharing Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:57, May 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * At the beginning of this year there was quite some fuss about the composition of the Government not being "diverse" enough; the PM was forced to accept people he did not like for positions they did not furfill properly and who were from different parties. Besides: did I ever insult anyone on here or make unfriendly remarks? The Master's Voice 04:50, May 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * At the beginning of this year there was a progressive majority in Congress, so the PM could simply not appoint his fellow conservatives - the bill wouldn't pass. Our new PM can!  08:00, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

069. Lovian Currency
I would like to propose a bill to create a Lovian currency, and to help achieve a greater degree of economic independece from the U.S. Basically it would be a Lovian dollar, divided into 10 Dimes and 100 cents. It would be issued in banknotes (from 2-500 dollars) where $1 LOV= 75 US cents, and coins of 1,2 and 5 cents; 1, 2 and 5 Dimes. HORTON11 01:19, May 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * This has been mentioned before. I think it would be a good idea. However, I'm not so sure it should be pegged to the dollar. Maybe to very stable currency, which is what I want. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:38, May 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Tying up our coin to the US dollar gives us more financial independence than we have today (using the US dollar). Also, a stable exchange rate spares us the cost of always having to update a (fictitious) altering exchange rate. I'm pro, though I think our coin should be a little stronger. Perhaps somewhere between $1 LOV = 80 US cents and $1 LOV = 90 US cents? We could write in the bill that we will take action if the limits would be crossed (printing money or taking it out of the market). 05:57, May 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure, we can make the value higher ($1 LOV= 90 US cents) HORTON11  14:26, May 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, let's go with that. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:11, May 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * @ TimeMaster- I had made some designs for banknotes at User:Horton11/Lovian_Currency. I may have to make updated/new designs for some though. HORTON11  16:14, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

I'm an own currency. If I'm right 1 dime = 0,1 $ and 1 cent = 0,01 $? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:30, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

Would give an extra feel to Lovians to be proud of themselves! As PM i love this idea for a more independent Lovia. Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:38, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

@ Oos- Yes its correct. HORTON11 23:49, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

Should we pass this to the second chamber? HORTON11 20:35, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

PM is fine with it. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:18, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

Just Noticed
What if two people want to mayor of a place. Should we re-vote on this and add an admendment that July is Local elections month and anyone can contest if you live in that place, and only people living in that area can vote in that city or town. Just pointing that out beacuse there might be some confusion. Also that you can only be the mayor of two towns or one city.

I say July is local election month and you get elected by having the most votes, nothing more than this

Marcus Villanova Jane Doe Marcus would be the winner.

Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:57, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

We don't have mayors anymore. OuWTB convinced me to remove them. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:07, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

Oh really? The what was the point of that bill. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:10, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

It was to add villages. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:11, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

=/ Hummm Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:13, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I should have ignored him. Was he oversimplifying? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:15, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion yes. But (I think you agree with mayors) We are greatly out numbered on this one sadly Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:24, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

No, I think we aren't. Yuri only changed to Contra because of the hamlet population thing. By the way, should I move the census thing to second chamber? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:52, May 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and move the census. About the mayor thing: Still some doubt in my mind. I admit it would be fun, but local elections will be controversial and it is not like a major has any autonomy. In previous laws we always moved power from local levels to Congress because it was easier that way.  06:08, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

Local elections may be fun and a little competitive. Marcus/Michael Villanova 10:28, May 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * We need proper elections for our most important institution: Congress, the representatives of the people. Aged youngman 13:55, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

Hey, we already have 5 states which are lead by a governor. If we'd also add mayor, we'll really run out of enough users to keep the political system functioning (and trust me, this has happened before) and there's also no need for another political level. :) I'd say you just run for governor soon! Also, IRL not all people are politician è :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:32, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

True we were suppose to have state elections in April but didn't and mid-term elections in June. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:17, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

Amish Kinley
As you know I live in America, New York, Yonkers, but if you met me my favorite state is a toss-up between Pennsylvania or Vermont, but leaning Penn!! I vist that state at least once a year. In the western part there are blue collar people, in the southeast 75% of the population lives there (my favorite part) a war took place there, a country was formed there, a city thrives there, chocolate is made there and then Lancaster County is filled with Amish people simple people. Maybe for the fun of it Amish Kinley a LRC (Local Rieligous Community) could have a mayor. If you check Nova Times archive 2010 around agust september i worte about Amish Mayoral elections, in which the leader would just lead and lead the LRC in prayer. Maybe we could make an exectpion for LRC's, let them have not "mayors" but "Reiligous Leaders" with local elections every year in July. We would obviously made up the election results (in which the CCPL would win ) and Nova Times could report.

So should we have Amish Kinley have Reiligous Leaders? For the fun of elections? Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:35, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

This is not really necessary, and anyways most of Lovia is atheist. HORTON11 22:06, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

There is already a Amish Kinley made before you came, just before about, a LRC which is under Lovian rule but is also sorta independent in a way. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:10, May 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, see also Mayors of Hurbanova. Hurbanova still has a "mayor" as an unofficial, ceremonial function. In Dutch they also call this lintjes knippen (referring to the otherwise useless monarchy) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:28, May 6, 2011 (UTC)

Well also we forgot to add LRC's in the Bill so maybe we should add them and say they could have useless reiligous leaders. Marcus/Michael Villanova 10:39, May 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd just keep it this way. A mayor should now be considered more like a spokesman for a town :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:16, May 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:42, May 6, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah maybe we should have a proposed bill like this/add this in: So is this good? Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:37, May 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Every Town, City, or Local Reiligous Community can elect a spokesperson.
 * This person has no political power.
 * The purpose of the spokesperson is to promote his or her views and the best for his city.
 * A spokesperson is elected every year in July.
 * The spokesperson has no term limits.
 * A citizen can only be the spokesperson of two towns, or one city.

We don't have LRCs, replace it with village. And don't explicitly say "July" either. What if we need to suspend it due to lack of candidates? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:31, May 6, 2011 (UTC)

Well we could just make up a person for that area that doesn't have a spokesperson we can make one up, we can also make up elections so let's say: I want to run for Noble City Mayor, but no one else does we can just make up people to run against. Were the only country in the world that doesn't have a local level! Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:38, May 6, 2011 (UTC)

And we did have LRC's before in Amish Kinley. That way the amish can live peacefully in there simple ways. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:41, May 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Marcus, our local level are the states :) Take Oceana, if we had a governor and a mayor, both men would run exactly the same terroritory, even if East Hills would become a village, still it would be a useless function. Just run for governor in Sylvania. TV is dead anyway. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:00, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

So is the governor Martha Van Ghent hasn't made an edit in months. So i guess so but the spokesman would have no political power. Maybe we could just have this for LRC's? Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:50, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

Notification to all fellow congressmen
Please re-propose all bills, that were going to be voted on or were in the process of being voted on, to the first chamber. This way the new congress can disscuss and vote on them (This is aimed at Yuri Medvedev beacuse he wrote three beautiful bills that shouldn't be abbandoned) So if you did have a bill just re propose it please to the first chamber for short disscussion and back to the second chamber for the new congress to vote on it. Thanks, Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:47, May 6, 2011 (UTC)

070. Lovian Banknotes
On the Lovian Dollar page I made the definitive designs for the banknotes. They are modern in design, but with several traditional elements and layouts. HORTON11 02:25, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * They are nice, though I think the Euro banknotes really rule. I love the idea of a monotone color scheme per note and one theme throughout the series. 11:37, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Very good? So we won't have conis? Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:02, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * On the Lovian dollar page are some designs I made. They are out-dated though. 12:14, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * I saw with the 1 and 2 dollar coins, I though they were nice and we should circulate them! I always like they feel of coins instead of some crinkled balled up dollar, but then again there worth more... Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:26, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

Prime Minister Calling for new elections
I want to have new elections with a new PM and everything. Boy didn't Villanova I Government go fast! In any case I want this done very fast, we'll use this same voting system and everything. So here it is:

Candidancies: May 9th - May 17th

Elections: May 20th - May 28th

This way it's short and sweet and we don't have the drastic vote changing everyday.

Also i'm setting the ammount of MOTC during the three day span. Considering the fact there are very few candidates, these elections are more for setting up a elected govrnment (which i wanted to do in the first place) and a elected PM. Which i'll be campaigning for. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:49, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sweet, I will support your candidacy! 13:54, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I hope the rest of congress supports this. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:02, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

Wait a little longer, maybe until June, for more activity to build up. Maybe some of the old users, like Martha or Galahad will come back. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:04, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

Doubt it we should just continue with the activness we have now. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:12, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

No, I disagree, for the reason I stated. Time for my census. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:13, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Wait with it. Some people might miraculously become active again. We really need the experience of older users! --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:15, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hummm maybe we should see how the other congressmen think. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:16, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Both options have their pro's and con's. I say that if the Provisional Congress is not hindered we can continue as we are. 14:20, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

Back on subject, So what if we move everything foward two weeks, makes eveything convinent for eveyone. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:20, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

Four, please. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:11, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * This might be too early since we are still discussing but can anyone participate? Also do you need to be with a party or not? Aged youngman 20:40, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

Also the consitution calls for a three week period in which candidancies need to be open so in that case it must be so and also a 25 day period for voting.

So here's the new plan:


 * Candidancies: May 10th - May 24th
 * Voting: May 30th - June 23rd

So this is final, supposing this are federal elections, i don't need congressional approval.

@Dae-Su- You can run as an independent if you want but the CPL.nm is always looking for new members. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:41, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

If the CPL doesn't suit you, look at the List of political parties in Lovia. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:17, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

True but we'd love go have you! There are many parties though. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:01, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

We also need to rename the conservative party. . . right now it is a UK mirror party, which is dumb. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:07, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Humm how about Conservative Alliance. I'll change it. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:13, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Let's have candidacies from May 23rd to June 6th, and the Elections from June 13th to July 4th. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:02, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

I moved the candacies up back one day. The reason we're holding elections so soon is that the "protesters" want a democratically elected congress, if we don't have that then they'll keep complaining and everything. I say hold them now and they'll stop. Besides the PM also controls the number of Congressmen elected, which will probaly be nine +king = 10. So everyone will probaly be elected. Marcus/Michael Villanova 10:37, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

Ten is the red line? Okay. Or maybe that is nine, because of the king. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:39, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

Ummm. I'll decide that during that six day period between candidancies. It'll probaly be nine making ten people in congress. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:57, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

I thought we were supposed to decide before the elections? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:12, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, according to the constitution PM's can decide this during elections, In my opinion this just seems a bit undemocratic. I mean if I see CPL.nm is doing great but the UNS and Conservatives aren't i'll just put that number @ 6 or somthing. Or if it's the other way around. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:47, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

Tirade

 * Agree with OWTB: Let us wait for a couple of months. We aren't in a hurry. Let's build up some more activity first. Fakking Held 17:13, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * We don't need more people like you. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:35, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Says someone who just called me a pig, for no reason at all... Why get personal? Clearly you cannot win the discussion, so you get personal... How weak of you, sir. I piss on your attitude. Fakking Held 17:41, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * This will stop AT ONCE. Final warning! 17:45, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Why remove my comments and not his? Is it because he is a communist like you, and our PM? How weak... Fakking Held 17:50, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Why you little rascal! You still don't get it, do you? Marcus has made valuable contributions to this site. He can (and does) make mistakes, but that is probably due to his short temper with extremists. You on the other hand have only spread you're unconstructive fascist commentaries. 17:55, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * If you have no life except messing up other peoples lives then you really need therapy or somthing. Sorry Fakker. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:58, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * For your information, kid, I happen to have a rich social life. I am not the one with 5,000+ edits... Fakking Held 18:04, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep up the bad work and I'll make sure you'll never get there. 18:08, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * @FH-True but at least not all my friend have swazitkas on there heads, and where army boots. Glad your the most popular nazi in your private nazi compound. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:12, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Marcus, playing is allowed but shouting not. He's blocked for three days and I warned him he shouldn't return without bettering himself. 18:14, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

Banning Tobacco
Simply add it to the other banned substances, like marijuana. Then I'd add its legalization to part of the green hemp party's platform. What do you guys think? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:37, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

that makes absolutley no sense. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:46, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

how does it make sense to ban somthing no one wants banned? Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:47, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Only you want it not banned so far. The only true reason in real life we don't ban tobacco is because so many people use it. In Lovia, that is diminished. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:33, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Apartenley Oos does, he said he started when he was 12 You probaly won't get his support.

We could do this one of two ways:


 * 1) Ban it completely


 * 1) Put a very high tax on it like (50%, i.e. pack of cigs 5.00, 2.50 would be the tax) but then the poor smokers would probaly not like this.

Ummm we do have alot of laws which make smoking around kids and public places a pretty big fine. I personally hate smoking but we'll see how other congressmen and Oos think about this. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:54, May 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow, I feel bad for Oos. Started when he was 12! Why not put a huge tax now, then ban it completely a year from now? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:12, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nah, just keep it the way we do now we have enough laws to limit smoking. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:14, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

Guys, I know this is a fictive country, but we should stay realistic. Banning tobacco is not possible. About 40% of the people in the Netherlands smoke, so imagine banning it there. It would cause a lot of trouble for the state... And don't forget: most people smoke because they're addicted (like me :P) and/or because they like it that much that they even like to give up their health for it (also like me :P). Current laws are actually already unbelievably strict for a western country, so I don't think we need to make it even worse.. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 04:45, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * I support a ban of smoking in public buildings and at schools and other places kids are normally around in huge numbers. Another scenario I like is having a state monopoly on the import of tobacco and derived products. That way we don't have high prices that come with taxes and yet the state can make money to finance health care and anti-smoking campaigns. Anyone in for this? It would be still sold in stores but most of the profit would go to the concerned Lovian state instead of people who want maximum profit out of destroying people's health. 05:51, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

I say were controlling people way to much, if you wanna stop smokers we could put a 15% tax on it and issue government vouchers to pay for smoking patches and gum and all that. Marcus/Michael Villanova 10:29, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

Yuri, anti-smoking campaigns are probably the most useless waste of money. All smokers know the dangers and health risks of smoking and no matter how hard you're campaigning: they ain't gonna quit until they have some kind of mental change or a strong reason to. (believe me, I'm a shmoker, so I know shit like that :P) Simply raise the health insurance price for smokers: how would you like to check that? Very simple, just like the wietpas they want to introduce in the Nl, you create a card for smokers and you may only buy cigars/cigarettes/joints/stuff like that, if you have this card. Immediately also stops minors from being able to buy the stuff if they look old enough, but aren't. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:46, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * The campaigns are meant to prevent people form starting to smoke, I know addictions don't die out easily. About the solutions you put forth: I absolutely agree on a stronger enforcement of the age level. More control is a must. Not so sure on the higher health insurance though, it would hit the poorer strata of society where smoking is more present due to a wide variety of social phenomena.  09:02, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, we should be targeting minors and people below 21. They are the most common people to start, I believe. We should pay for the campaigns with tobacco taxes as well. $2.00 on a pack of 20 would work. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 10:55, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

071. Language Act
Basically I would like to make Oceana an official national language alongside English. Lovian citizens should eventually have a basic working knowledge in both languages, and schooling in Lovia should become 50/50 split between both. HORTON11 22:13, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * We do have this for the state of Oceana, I think the rest of the states should decide this on what they want there second language should be. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:56, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * I do of course agree with Horton, but I don't think it's really that useful. The original Oceana speaking area only covers Oceana and a very small area in Sylvania. Another problem is that there are about 400 speakers, which is only about 15% of the Oceana population. @Marcus: actually not, because of Dimitri's fear for another Hurbanova Crisis, I was not allowed to make education in Oceana different from the rest of Lovia, so it's 100% English with only a few hours Oceana literature in a week. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 04:49, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe we can allow the pupils to choose two subjects out of a list that covers the history, language and culture of a specific country/region? Each of the courses could be given one hour a week in the four last years of high school? Subjects certainly included should be Oceana, French and Spanish. I don't think with only 400 speakers we should make it a must, but I think most pupils in Oceana schools will choose for Oceana. 05:57, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we should simply accord certain languages 'special recognition', in that they are spoken by large minorities which deserve recognition of their culture. We could give it f.e. to Oceana and Dutch - I can't think of any others at the moment (except Russian of course ). English would remain the only official language. --Semyon 10:58, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure, though I would refrain from using the expression 'large minorities' in an official text.  12:46, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * There's only 400 speakers of this language. I think we should add in Oceana as a offical language for Oceana. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:35, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Oceana culture and language is worth keeping and safeguarding. If it is decided not to make Oceana the official second language of Lovia, then let us at least give it an official status so that we can properly protect it. The Master&#39;s Voice 20:38, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

I say make it offical language in Oceana, not anywhere else. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:41, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed. But it wouldn't work unless the language is given an official status and recognized by the government in Noble City. In Oceana, too, English has to be the first language. Yet nation-wide Oceana is the second biggest language, so why not make it the official second language of Lovia? The Master&#39;s Voice 20:44, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

Beacuse no one else speaks it, also Sofasian is spoken by 350 people, which use to be spoken by around 1,000 people. So we also make that an offical lanuage of Lovia? No we just make it an offical language of Clymene Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:52, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, we also make Sofasian an official language of Lovia. Either that or we both grant them the status of regional dialect and nothing more. We don't play favourites. Either all these languages are given an official status, or none are. The Master&#39;s Voice 21:03, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

Yes regional dialect, perfect wording. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:08, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

They aren't "dialects" of English all that much. They are more like languages. . . for example, Oceana has a more slavic grammar. Let's call them regional languages instead. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:15, May 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, Sofasian hadn't been given that state, because it was created after a language stop. In Lovia there had been so many languages created that more would be irrealistic. I'd say we keep this stop, but make an exception for Sofasian, so it can become an official regional language. One problem though: there's nobody here that can speak it, as there has hardly been made a dictionary, unlike for Oceana, and the creator has left Lovia... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:27, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

Fine, but Oceana should only an official language of Oceana. Marcus/Michael Villanova 10:23, May 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * In fact it's not that fine :) But indeed, Oshenna = Oceana. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:18, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand why it just can't be for one state, every state should have two offical lanuages to broden language horizions.

Kings and Sylvania: They only speak english very conseded

Seven: Dutch, Russian

Clymene: Sofasian

Oceana: Oshenna

Fine? Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:24, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Wait, what about Russian in Seven? (Novosevensk) —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:14, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Sure. Well see how others react Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:23, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I do think that it's important that we have people that can speak the language on this site as well, even if it's only somebody who knows the basics of that language. Otherwise it just makes no sense, because it's like: "hey guys, in our country/state we speak this language, but actually nobody speaks it..." --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:14, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Which you've made my point why made Oceana a National language when it's only spoken by one Place. It 's like saying "Hey I live in Kings and even though our national languages are English and Oceana we only speak English." See. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:08, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia calls them "recognised regional languages" (from memory). That's a suiting term, although dropping the recognised would be perfectly fine. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 11:35, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, originally this act was a part of the Oceana State Law and as these were abolished it was transferred to the federal law. I guess that's the reason why it's national. But "recognised regional language" is slightly different from "official regional language". The difference is that a recognised language may not be used in official documents, but an official regional language may. (at least, that's the case in the Netherlands). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:17, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

072. Tax System of Lovia
This is a law to be added to the constitution, so 75% needed.


 * All citizens 18 years of age and older must pay taxes to the Federal Government of Lovia.


 * All citizens must pay the taxes at the current rate set by the goevrnment.


 * The rate is to be set when the new congress comes in.


 * They must pass the rate from March 1st - April 1st, or the previous rates continue to go into effect, know as the tax code and record should be kept about the taxes of former years.


 * Congress may also pass a law on sales tax.


 * Congress may change this rate between the peroid of March 1st - April 1st.


 * Congress can also attach on benefits for certain types of people. (i.e. first time home owners, people with two or more children, small bisnuess owners.)


 * Citizens of Lovia must pay there taxes at a, local post office, mail to the federal govrnment, or deliver it to the government, between the period of April 20th - May 20th.


 * Citizens of Lovia who do not pay there taxes will be brought before the judical system of Lovia and punished with a felony.


 * Along with the felony they must pay the money and be sentenced with additional three years to the jail sentence.
 * Wikia Citizens say they didn't pay there taxes they should appear before the supreme court for a trial, the maximum sentance is four months, and the minimum is one month.

So any one like? Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:51, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Like. Let's just pass the law now, also. Why should we wait a month? Also, five years is way too much, since this is a wiki. Why not three months? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:56, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Wait five years? Where do you see that. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:00, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

We need this bill now, and we need a budget plan. Nathaniel Scribner 21:25, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, ummm also the bullet things are being indented. Crap. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:26, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

It says five years as the punishment. That's way too much. Also, I like Scribner's plan most closely. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:54, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Oh for tax evasion? I'll lower it to three. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:02, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Three years should be three months. Banning someone for 3 years for an IC situation is six times as bad as YgoD's 6 month ban for an IC thing. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:40, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

We should also introduce the sales tax, 6%. Also I wanted my plan's lower class tax bracket at around 30%. Nathaniel Scribner 01:23, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe to 28%? I think the lower classes might be paying a bit much. Also, the sales tax is good. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:28, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

And seriously TM, seriously? What user would just say "I want to be banned for three years" It's just to make the other "citizens" of lovia pay there taxes. Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:38, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, seriously. Look what happened to Donia for breaking an IC law. If someone evades taxes, we aren't going to ban them for three years. You get banned for IC here, if you didn't know that. I am not going to vote for this until it is changed. Realistic punishments for the wiki, not real life which Lovia isn't, are needed. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:45, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Again seriously? Since this isn't IRL we won't litterally say Going to pay taxes now, it'll just be done for us. When we create laws we create them for us and the other "Citizens" of Lovia. Why Would any one just want to be banned for three years? That doesn't make sense. Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:52, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

What about if someone explicitly says "they don't pay taxes". Then there could be a trial and they would get banned for three years. It does make sense. We need to have wiki punishments, not IRL punishments. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:09, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

If they're really that smart then they should be banned I'll put in a new clause, read it. But the dot aren't working. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:21, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Forget the tax plans, we have to focus on this law so that we have taxes! We can discuss that during the tax period. Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:48, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

O_o I just found an old tax plan of Yuri's that was never passed. It's in the second chamber somewhere, with those other massive financial bills. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:54, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah but it was in the old congress, i notified congress by saying all former laws should be re-posted in the first chamber, it wasn't here we are now. Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:07, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

His was really good, I think we should just be revising it. O_o —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:14, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

We should probaly. Let's see what yuri has to think about this. Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:16, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Some Charts and thoughts
Well here's three possible ways that seem most out there

I suppose this:

17,000 Lovians are above the age of 18 and recive income

I also suppose since we have such a high cost of licing and almost every user and character is a millionaire i'll say:

4% of all Lovians make a million dollars or more

4% make between 250,000 to one million

4% make between 100,000 to 249,999

75% make between 45,000 to 99,999

and the rest 13% make 44,999 and under.

Just guessing

So let's say:

16% (2720) of Lovians for this graph's sake make 500 thousand

and 84% (14280) make 60,000 dollars.

So here's the three plans:

Plan one
Tax them a very socialist way 20% on the lower, 40% on the higher

So let's do 2,720 times 500,000 times 40% that would get lovia = 544,000,000 to the Lovian Government, or 200,000 a person.

And the Lower Class, 14,280 times 60,000 times 20% = 171,360,000 to the Lovian Government or 12,000 a person.

Plan Two
A way Scribner put out which is the "enjoy limited taxes" eveyone pays around the same:

So the higher classes of 2,720 times 500,000 times 36% that would get Lovia = 489,600,000 to the government or 180,000 dollars a person.

The Lower classes, 14,280 times 60,000 times 28% that would get Lovia = 230,904,000 to the government or a person

Plan Three
Across the board taxes a very republican conservative plan, everyone pay 35%

So here we go 2,720 times 500,000 times 35% that would get Lovia = 476,000,000 or 175,000 a person.

And Lower Classes, 14,280 times 60,000 times 35% would get Lovia = 299,880,000 or 21,000 a person

So what we gonna do? Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:10, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Let's keep the discussion up there. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:40, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

So here's a chart showing the difference between rich (100,000 and more) and under you can make a decision by yourself. Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:41, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand the graph that well. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:45, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Read it, it shows that even though 16% of the people are just 16% they have 61.35% of all the money in Lovia. Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:52, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I see. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:09, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * I support the first plan though in Europe we'd call that 'normal progressive taxation' instead of 'very socialist'. 06:58, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

I think the lower class taxes should be reduced further in Scribner's plan. Maybe 25% for lower and 35% for higher, and some way to make a fluid zone in between. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 11:39, May 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * I say 38% and 23% is fine. Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:08, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

I think that the rich are being too highly taxed in your plan. Put them down to 35% at least. However, the 23% for the poorer people is very good. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:23, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * 35% for the richest is an absolute minimum too me, go underneath it and I'll vote contra. 13:05, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah but Lovia offers so much to people and so much more. Maybe 37% Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:06, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

We should really be focusing on the bill itself these were just different plans. Nothing has been set in stone. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:07, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

How much money does it take to run the country, anyone got the numbers?Nathaniel Scribner 19:00, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * It depends on a lot of things such as how big government is, what its tasks are, how large the country is, etc. Really no beginning at making up a realistic number. 07:33, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Can We really focus on the bill it's self so we have a tax program? Please? Anyway we'd have to look through all laws take number of lovian people it effects and how much it would cost. Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:05, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Sure. Let's do 36% on the rich and 28% on the poor. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:11, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

36% and 25% Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:32, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Okay. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:33, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

We need a budget plan, stop the estimations and lets get the numbers. People shouldn't be paying for a government who doesn't know how much the bills are to run the government. Alright, every department secretary should report how much there department would cost for the next year/ongoing year, making this essayer for the next term of congressmen. If its good in the end we could possibly lower the taxation for both of the brackets if we are in the clear for money, or we could use it on some other national project. Nathaniel Scribner 16:54, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Not to be that guy but why don't you do then. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:44, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Had to go to my sisters graduation, now I get to be that guy- do your department.

DoAiT : 10 million Lovian Dollars.Nathaniel Scribner 04:01, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * This is the budget for AiT? Foreign Affairs will need about 84 million (including aid-programs, participation in international research and a budget co-operated with AiT for foreign trade). 05:53, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Were are a nation of low populace and low poverty, we need small aid-programs and participation in international research would be be taken in small representation. 84 million is way too high, I could understand with 30 million for ambassadors and embassies. Seeing as 670,000 is too low I'd put it at 3 million Nathaniel Scribner 06:26, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * 34 million are the new costs. I re-calibrated them for our low population number. 06:45, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Love it. Nathaniel Scribner 06:47, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * I am cutting costs like crazy but would like an additional 13 million for international aid programs. It could be in a fund that when not spent on a disaster this year, it is used to fund the budget of next year. Would that be okay? 06:49, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * 8 million and allow the rest into our budget plan for future disaster's, also we should only to send it to nations with no activity with terrisom, is in good terms with us and won't use it for military spending. Nathaniel Scribner 07:03, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm making a plan here, can you take a look? I altered my approach to international aid and directed it all trough the UN. 07:13, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Our budget has to be at least around 75 million with a 36%, 25%, + sales tax also including tax rebates. See as the two biggest departments are accounted for, ummm...The police would need funding and so would the parks departments. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:09, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

073. Revision to the Sports and National Team Act
Currently, the law reads:


 * Minors may not participate in outside physical training or games when the outside temperature is below 10 degrees Celsius (50°F) or above 35 degrees Celsius (95°F), nor may they participate in inside physical training or games when the temperature in the specific room is below 15 degrees Celsius (59°F) or above 30 degrees Celsius (86°F).
 * Minors may not accept financial payment for sports achievements.

Firstly, the limits are too stringent, especially the lower ones. So minors (including 17 years olds) can't play a sport outside before 10 degrees. You can function fine at that temperatures. And besides, doesn't this mean a bunch of winter sports are illegal? I propose the limits be changed to -10 degrees Celsius (14 degrees Fahrenheit) and 35 degrees Celsius (95 degrees Fahrenheit) for minors, and no limits for adults. Regarding the final clause, I believe that this is ageist. Why not? Why can't they start a sporting career in high school? I think these age limits should be done away with or reduced for the final clause. What do the rest of the MOTCs think? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:19, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

As the co-sponsor and wirter, I also found this wierd. I think that the highest should be 87F all around and 0F. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:27, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think this is good but I'm not in Congress yet. I wanted to comment since nobody else does. Aged youngman 11:15, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, seems fine with me. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:12, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

No one else cares, and anyone who does agrees. Taking this to second chamber, with a rewrite to section 5 and deletion of section 6. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:04, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

Pro. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:14, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

I added some requirements for adults as well. -13 F and 100 F. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:17, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

074. A Fair Trial
I checked the Constitution and all we have is the following:
 * Lovia is a democratic and social state, governed by the rule of law, in which [...] justice and political pluralism represent supreme values (Article 1.A.2)
 * Every human being and citizen has the right to be arrested in a trial and to be treated correctly (Article 2.1.5)

Even Iran has a better developed concept of a fair trial and therefore I wrote an article I'd like to add to the Constitution. The most important change is that it allows a change of the judge if you feel he is not neutral. Also, a judge will have to motivate his decision thoroughly. Take your time to read it trough, it should not be in conflict with any existing legislation. Please notify my if you find an irregularity - typo's can be fixed on the spot. 11:35, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

Proposed Article 12 of the Constitution
Awesome. Now Iran will be looking pretty stupid. Marcus/Michael Villanova 11:41, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) All people accused in a civil or criminal case pending with a Lovian court are entitled to a due process of law as defined in this section of the Constitution, in correspondence with Articles 1.A.2 and 2.1.5.
 * 2) The due process of law is supervised by a Judicial Council which is an organ independent of any of the three powers judicial, legislative and executive.
 * 3) The Judicial Council consists of a Supreme Court Judge, the Secretary of Justice and a representative of the Congress.
 * 4) Of all the non-involved Supreme Court Judges the one with longest duty is chosen for every case-specific assembly.
 * 5) For every case-specific assembly Congress appoints a MOTC as its representative.
 * 6) All three seats of the Judicial Council are at any time occupied by different members.
 * 7) The Judicial Council must judge on the challenging of judges and motivations as described in 3.3 and 4.1 of this section of the Constitution.
 * 8) The Judicial Council may formulate an advice to the Congress on the appointment or removal of a judge.
 * 9) To ensure a due process of law a defendant in a civil or criminal case pending with a Lovian court has the following rights:
 * 10) To have access to an independent and impartial judge with the full judicial power to judge on both the facts and the rights.
 * 11) A judge is considered independent if he does not follow instructions of another judge or a political actor.
 * 12) A judge is considered impartial if he does not show any bias towards a party in a case he is judging.
 * 13) The fair access to a judge is guaranteed by allowing any involved party to challenge the judge before the Judicial Council.
 * 14) If the Judicial Council agrees to the challenge it can either appoint a replacing judge or judge the case itself.
 * 15) If the Judicial Council denounces the challenge the judge resumes his duty and his judgement is legally binding.
 * 16) To be provided the following means in order to be sufficiently able to exercise one's right to a fair defense:
 * 17) The ability to choose not to speak or answer any question by calling upon one's right to remain silent.
 * 18) The ability to get advice from and to be defended by a lawyer which can not be treated as a witness.
 * 19) A treatment in compliance with the presumption of innocence for the duration of the trial.
 * 20) The ability to contradict all elements of a case during the trial and to be given the proper time to do so.
 * 21) The right to contradiction is limited to the substantial case and does not apply to police research.
 * 22) The judge can make an exception to this right to protect an anonymous witness from harm.
 * 23) To be judged and hear one's verdict in publicity, ensured by entrance to the court room free to the public.
 * 24) The judge can cancel this right to protect an involved party from harm or to ensure public order.
 * 25) If the judge cancels this right he has to inform the involved parties at the start of the trial.
 * 26) To ensure a due process of law the parties in a civil or criminal case pending with a Lovian court have the following rights:
 * 27) To receive sufficient factual and judicial motivation for the verdict given in which all means raised are to be answered.
 * 28) If the motivation is believed to be insufficient, dubious or contradictory any involved party may challenge the verdict before the Judicial Council
 * 29) The Judicial Council can suspend a verdict if the motivation is found to be insufficient, dubious or contradictory though it can not be cancelled.
 * 30) A suspended verdict becomes executable when the judge altered its motivation to solve the problems determined by the Judicial Council.
 * 31) To be provided with a judgement within a reasonable amount of time, at most one month after the judge opened the case.
 * 32) No one can be sentenced for an act more than one year after the act took place, tough the question of guilt can still be the object of a trial.
 * 33) An an exception, the following crimes are always punishable: murder, genocide, slavery, severe deprivation of freedom in conflict with the law, torture, grave sexual violence such as rape or forced prostitution, targeted persecution or discrimination of an identifiable group or community and forced disappearance.
 * 34) To see the verdict executed once it is final as a means of assuring the rule of law.