Forum:First Chamber

__NEWSECTIONLINK__ In Lovia, Congress is the national legislative body and the most powerful branch of government. The First Chamber is one of the two chambers of Congress, in which the Members of the Congress propose bills and debate them. The Second Chamber is where they are eventually voted. Paradoxically, Lovia does not have a bicameral parliament: there is only one group of MOTCs that both debates and votes the proposals. For the current composition of Congress, see this.

As prescribed by Article 6 of the Constitution, all Lovian citizens "may write and propose motions to the Federal Law", that "are presented to the Members of the Congress in the First Chamber." The MOTCs' duty is to "read the motion and form a personal opinion about it. In order to obtain the support of a majority of Members of the Congress, changes may be proposed in the First Chamber." If a majority is likely to be found, the proposer will move the bill to the Second Chamber for a vote.

The First Chamber is not a popular assembly where all citizens can express their personal interests. Polling the population ought to happen outside of Congress.

026. Air Lovia
I'd like to bring this issue to Congress/Parliment. Air Lovia is formally requesting the ability as the national airline of Lovia. -- 中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 00:36, October 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * If by national airline you mean state-run provider of transportation services, I'm in! Even though any piece of legislation concerning this matter must also enshrine the relations between the national airline and commercial services.  05:47, October 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, I would like to oppose your former comment on deregulation - Lovian government has the duty to provide key services to its people. (Though you could argue if organizing airlifts is one of them). 05:50, October 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * Air Lovia is happy to be subsidized (subsidies) and be treated as a national airline. Thank you,

中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 22:24, October 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hello?! --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 22:27, October 26, 2011 (UTC)

We can bring it before Congress. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:35, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

Ooh, it got brought before Congress! —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:39, October 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Lol... --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 03:04, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Travel by are is not a key service. Except for medical/aid air travel this should be private. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:34, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Haha wtf. Njet. Il Duce Octavian 09:11, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Even if Canada's national airline is Air Canada, people still pay for tickets, because you still got WestJet... so, it's merely a name of honor, really. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 13:09, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, and some state-subsidy of transport would be good too. --Semyon 15:33, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

We could make it a state-involved company (minority owned) under the Economic Involvement Act. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:37, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

The plan is that Air Lovia will be subsidized and the shares will be like this: Walker (25%), Goyou (50%), and Government (25%).

Or maybe just Walker 35% Goyou 35% and Government 30%. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:56, October 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 22:16, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

027. The King?
Should we have a king anymore? I mean, it is unfair just because Dimitri founded this website, he doesn't even have to worry about being elected! He has been inactive for a long time and it's time to make Lovia with checks and balances. A new system will be proposed soon. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 03:38, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * NO! We will have a king. And if you have done your homework you would've seen that the automatic seat is no longer there. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:33, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, we will have a king. And he will kneel before the Emperor we'll soon also have! The glorious First Consul of Rome 08:38, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Wasn't Il Duce the Emperor? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:09, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Si, che vuole dire? :D Il Duce Octavian 09:11, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * My stance, and that of the CPL.nm, still haven't changed: Dimitri will be our last King. He can have his crown until he dies or steps down. After that, Lovia is to become a Republic. 09:39, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nah, I kinda like the monarchy. Let Dimi's oldest child take over, or his brother, nephew, niece or whoever is his next of kin. Lovia has always been a monarchy, and it's Royal Family has become a part of the Lovian culture and idenity. We shouldn't take that way, it would be foolish and not needed. The glorious First Consul of Rome 09:41, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, the issue will probably never be on the table as Dimi isn't expected to die any time soon. 09:45, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nope. Maybe sixty years from now our grandchildren will figure out something. The glorious First Consul of Rome 09:47, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Dimi is not active, as you say, so it's not really different from having a wholly fictional character on the throne. --Semyon 15:31, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

028. Deployment & ending this another message from the PM
Tomorrow UNLOR, the US and Mexican armies, and hired mercenaries will liberate Clymene, no doubt. All rebels in Clymene seen there have the direct order to be arrested or if in the act of violence even killed. This drastic measure has to be taken. The fact that these fascist war-heads are still attacking has to be stopped. The ban of rebel leader coming to congress has been lifted in hopes of new peace treaties. It would be to my best interest that Seven, Kings, Clymene, and sylvania are given back to the lovian people, and in turn Oceana a free republic. A measure many rebels should agree with. Back to the clymene rebels, 5,000 troops will be sent and in turn Clymene back to the Lovian government. Similar attacks to rebels will be sent out in the coming days in Seven, then Kings and finally Sylvania. The rebels will lose. And with that I commend this statement to the house. Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:03, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

I thought the rebels were already out of Clymene. Seven is almost gone. And Oceana WILL NOT be independent. They will just become an autonomous state. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:05, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * When HAMR was stopped, PAM took over. All PAM is asking for is a simple autonomy, because we hate Newhaven's laws, that's all. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 15:08, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * PAM doesn't have any real users that REALLY want autonomy, unlike Oceana. PAM is just a random independence movement that's there for no reason. UNLOR secured Kings 100% a long time ago. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:20, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * First "Hamr\Hammer", no PAMela... The glorious First Consul of Rome 15:23, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Timemaster: UNLOR controls Kings now. This PAM nonsense discredits my honest efforts. Aged youngman 15:39, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, but no offense Jeff. Also... is the Capitol building blown up still or was that reversed? *crosses fingers* —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:43, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * The building has been blown up - you said no godding. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 16:17, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Can yuri or somone good at maps please update the current rebel control situation? Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:33, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hehehe... this thing is a disaster. :D --LCPCOP Christopher Costello (Pikapi - Discuss) 03:26, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

029. Preparing future trials
There seems to be a general consensus on the decoupling of blocking accounts and trials. This is, most of us feel, for the best. It can't however not be an excuse not to make work of the trials. I feel we can already prepare the cases against Hessel Doorian, Dietrich Honecker, Kim Dae-su and Thomas Matombé. What I'd like to ask from Congress is that they find us a judge and a public plaintiff. I am willing to be the plaintiff if needed. 12:57, October 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Am I to vote over this too? Well I knew I had it coming so I wont block your proposal. That is, if the judge is trustworthy. Aged youngman 13:36, October 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * In that case, I wouldn't go for the guy who judged the Galahad v. The Brigade Trial. That was a total sham. The glorious First Consul of Rome 13:41, October 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yuri and Timemaster remain my favorites. Or Marcus if he isn't that angry with me anymore. But he's already our premier. Aged youngman 13:42, October 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * I can be imparshial and i am studying law so if you need a judge just call. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:40, October 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * I propose that in future two judges must judge every trial, chosen from opposite ends of the political spectrum to avoid travesties like the Brigade trial. --Semyon 20:52, October 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * And I fully support that, Semyon. In fact, I believe there has been a similar proposal once but it didn't get through. The glorious First Consul of Rome 20:59, October 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have been working on a few lawyer characters of my own. Once this war is over, things can only get more interesting (judicially, that is!). Cheers,--LCPCOP Christopher Costello (Pikapi - Discuss) 21:58, October 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * I would like to be the judge, if that's possible. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:53, November 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * So this far we have Marcus and TimeMaster as judges and me as a public plaintiff. If no-one else applies for these jobs I think Congress may vote.  08:17, November 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * If we have two judges we'd need to modify the Constitution. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 11:04, November 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * What is TimeMaster's political colour? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:42, November 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * In the middle, so I guess I don't qualify. We need a super-commie (Yuri) and a far-rightist-racist dude (Drabo), I guess. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:06, November 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * But I wanted to be plaintiff. Well, I still support the duo TimeMaster-Marcus, but if you guys disagree it will be hard to find another couple. We can't use any of the charged persons (OWTB, Bucu, TMV, etc.) - this leaves us with very little choice. 08:22, November 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * I suppose so, but I also wanted to defend Dae-su. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:45, November 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * I am willing to be either defense or judge, whichever TM doesn't want to do. (I'm in a nice mood today :P) --Semyon 19:54, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * In that case, I'd like to be judge. My "actor" (lol) will be Lars Washington, and if Aesopos returns, I'll turn over control to him. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:02, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

030. Clarification and passage of law
Would any other Rt. Congressmen want to clarify or allow the City Archipelago to become it's own state/country? How do we define Oceana now? Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:16, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

Allow The Empire of Oceana to become it's own country de facto then Ocean apart of it to. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:20, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

The Empire of Oceana should not become its own country, it will be ended soon. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:51, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

okay.Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:16, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

I say allow them to become they're own country, and own wikia. Lets see how long that nation will last. Richard Creed 01:11, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

One wiki, one law, one nation! (all references to historic slogans are pure coincidence). Serously though, if they want a country of their own they should start a new wiki. THIS is Lovia. 12:43, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

031. Some changes to the constitution
Here are some proposed changes to the constitution adding NC as a state and introducing the concept of 'districts'. Changes in bold.

Article 4
Article 4 – The structure of Lovia
 * 1) The Kingdom of Lovia is governed on different levels:
 * 2) The federal level encompasses the entire Lovian territory.
 * 3) The executive power of the federal level inheres to the Government of Lovia. This government consists of the Prime Minister and the Federal Secretaries, and has control over government departments, government institutions and civil services.
 * 4) All legislative power inheres to the Lovian Congress. This parliamentary body consists of the Members of the Congress, who are either democratically elected by the citizens of Lovia or who are Member by Right (the ruling monarch). Congress may, as the sole body in the nation, write and amend legal matters in the Federal Law and the Constitution.
 * 5) All judicial power inheres to the Supreme Court of Lovia.
 * 6) The state level consists of five states with limited powers: Clymene, Kings, Oceana, Seven and Sylvania, and one Autonomous City: Noble City.
 * 7) The executive power of the federal level inheres to the Governor and Deputy Governor of each state, and to the Mayor and Deputy Mayor in the Autonomous City, both democratically elected by the citizens of each state.
 * 8) The term ‘Autonomous City’ and ‘mayor’ are synonymous with ‘state’ and ‘Governor’ respectively, and the same laws apply to both.
 * 9) The local level, consisting of cities and towns, and the sublocal level, consisting of neighborhoods and hamlets, are governed by the state authorities.
 * 10) On the local level, states are further subdivided, on a geographical and cultural basis.
 * 11) In urban areas, the subdivisions are known as neighborhoods and hamlets.
 * 12) Neighborhoods are grouped together into towns or cities.
 * 13) In rural areas, the subdivisions are known as districts.
 * 14) Districts, neighborhoods and hamlets are governed by state authorities or the officials that they appoint.

Comments
Any? :) --Semyon 20:20, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I definitely do not agree to Noble City being an "Autonomous city". (Maybe make it something like the China PR People's Republic of China's "Direct-controlled municipality", like Shanghai, but I'd still disagree.) First of all, will Transcity split from Noble City? Second, if Transcity will become part of Noble City, where will Sylvania's State Capitol be? Definitely NOT Train Village! --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 20:43, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

How is this going to be useful, Semyon? We don't have ridings or districts based on politics at all. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:07, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Lol, I just read the notes section. In my Census, I just added 500 as rural population to each state. I don't think population should be based on users at all, though, because all it does is make the population go up and down and up and down again. It would be better to have nice and realistic population--30,000 for Noble City, 20,000 for Newhaven, 15,000 for Hurbanova, 12,000 for Sofasi, etc. And the autonomous city thing is kinda weird, a federal district or nothing at all would be better. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:14, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yay! Nobody listened to me! --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 22:46, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Transcity has been part of Noble City and it always will be... And what's wrong with Train Village? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:21, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I support this to the fullest. TV would also make a great capital for Sylvania, which is now too much synonym with 'NC' and 'Lovia'. Even the further subdivision of states is fun; it asks for new maps!  08:18, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * @Jeff: Sorry, I only just logged in. I don't think a new state capitol will be a difficult point; it could be located in TV or even in Charleston, if that was wished. It could help also to boost TV's population. @TM: If we're going to base everything on how 'useful' it is, we may as well delete the whole wiki :P. Doing things because they're 'fun', as Yuri points out is quite a good enough reason IMO. Personally I dislike the use of the word 'federal', partly because it sounds as if we've copied it from America (yes I know DC is not a federal district, but the word federal pops up everywhere) but more importantly because it's misleading - we're not a federation. (The name was BTW copied from Buenos Aires). @Yuri: Thanks for the support. :P --Semyon 10:38, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Great. Just great! I'd support splitting Sylvania into West and East where Noble City is the capitol of West Sylvania (or whatever name you want), then East Sylvania (or whatever name you want) will be governed by Charleston. I do NOT want Noble City becoming some sort of "Direct-controlled municipality" (like China). I can't see how it helps Lovia, and this will ruin the wiki. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 15:23, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I wish Hannis was here to give his "non-existent" problem speech...but this helps very little so most of my congressmen will vote pro. Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:28, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * How does a direct-controlled municipality ruin the wiki? I also don't see much reason here. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:32, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah again as i read over this is really does nothing but create more divisions. Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:34, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I never mentioned a 'direct-controlled municipality' so I don't know what you mean. --Semyon 15:45, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Frankly the 'non-existent problem' thing was a load of crap, because it allowed Hannis to sound profound while ridiculing others' ideas. No, there's no big 'problem' that needs a 'solution' but I think it would be a nice thing to do, and evidently so does Yuri. On a wiki of this kind that's quite a good enough reason for doing anything. If you disagree, by all means vote contra, but don't use that argument. --Semyon 16:07, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Read Jeff's comment, he said it would ruin the wiki. And actually, there are plenty of non-existent problems we've solved--however, not all solutions to those non-existent problems are problems in themselves (but some are--take the oasis skin--it sucks, monaco was better). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:20, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Listen, Noble City shouldn't be it's own "autonomous city". It really ruins everything, but if you want to, grrr... --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 16:29, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * No, how does it ruin anything? :S --Semyon 16:54, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I will agree if Sylvania's capital will remain in Transcity. (Even if Noble City is an autonomous city) --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 18:04, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think enough people have spoken out in support of the proposal. If moved to the second chamber it will most likely get approved. 06:00, November 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * If Transcity is part of Noble City, and Noble City would be autonomous, then how would the capital of Sylvania be located in Transcity? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 11:53, November 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I moved it. :) --Semyon 18:46, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

032. Standard Knowledge Assessment
I am proposing the default Lovian standardized test for all schools, no matter private or public, shall take the SKA until college. The last year it is taken, the scores will be a determining factor to allow students to show colleges and upper education institutes their SKA scores. No government interference shall take place, but a new organization called EduLovia or the current educational department will develop the test and set rules, etc. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 00:52, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Jeffwang, do you have any characters with a seat in congress? If not, than this is not the place to place such a request. Especially if you are proposing the idea that this poll is open to any citizens. --LCPCOP Christopher Costello (Pikapi - Discuss) 02:45, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

I strongly oppose any such proposal. I agree with a test to indicate how capable students are, but such tests should NOT determine what you can study. So mandatory tests without consequences of which the results could be used to indicate how well Lovian education is doing. 12:26, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

@cHRIS - Any citizen can propose a law or write in the first chamber, but only MOTC can vote and disccuss in the chambers.

I dissagree with this waste of money take it from a high schooler's POV. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:43, November 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Erm, you know what, I don't care if I'm not an MOTC, because if you look at the introduction, you will see your shame appear. Also, the proposal has been updated. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 23:48, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

033. The 11th Amendment regarding a national military
Recently, I've been asking why everyone in Lovia is so opposed to a national military. After a while of not being responded to, however, I checked-up on Ooswesthoesbes' talk page and found the answer. Dimitri opposes a military. I get that our king is pacifist, but no official rule has yet been established that outlaws one, so I am here to provide us with a cleverly thought out solution, that we create a military.

The Lovian Civil War has just ended, and we chose to sit back as the United Nations Lovian Order Restoration Force and the United States of America were left to do our dirty work. It took hundreds of civilian deaths in order to make the solution clear? We don't want this to happen again! We need to learn to adopt our own military!Think of it like this: if we had our own military, than that would mean that we could put down rebellion quicker and then enforce our laws with more efficiency. No more waiting around on our allies to get the job done and less unjustified deaths!

Below I've established an act for our Constitution that you all should take into consideration. The title, "Lovian Armed Forces", is definitely negotiable, if you would prefer "Lovian Royal Military" or something along those lines.

Cheers,--LCPCOP Christopher Costello (Pikapi - Discuss) 02:42, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

- Submitted the idea and sees this change fit (-Pikapi unsigned)

I do support this but I think that an independent military is not really justified for such a small country. What if we made the military a part of the police (like Costa Rica)? HORTON11 18:20, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Horton. And what's up with all this voting crap? The First Chamber is not for that. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:22, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

well i agree and don't I like a military but how well funded. I don't want our country to have 45 nukes, 4552422 guns and engaging in any wars. Tho, Chris i know ur smart so i don't think you intended that.

Ummm if you could change/add in That only the PM can propose an attack on another country but it needsa special majority of 60%. And in sense the REAL MAIN PURPOSE OF THE ARMY is defense. And chris Good job! Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:51, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, well I'll definitely make the changes that you suggested if you accept my decision. Also, you should know that only globally substantial nations harbor, much less have the ability to create nuclear weaponry. A military would be a smart step forward, and it's kind of my specialty...

The military would always take a defensive stance. Furthermore, we wouldn't engage ourself in foreign affairs and would remain allied with the UN and the US, but actually writing that stuff in the Constitution would make the Armed Forces seem less formidable. So what will it be? I'm taking this to the Second Chamber with your suggestions in mind. Thanks,--LCPCOP Christopher Costello (Pikapi - Discuss) 22:42, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

We should wait a day or two let the scruitiny and comments come in. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:56, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

I'm still in agreement with Horton, and I will not vote for this. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:32, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Let's add a Lovian Air Force. I can't believe you missed an air force, because we have islands and it's faster to travel by air. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 23:51, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

That's the worse idea. We've told you already, we're a country of 20000, the fact we offer social security without taxing is freckin amazing. And seriously i really can't agree with this. Our army should just be like 100-250 specialy trained people really to defend our nation in really important times of need, along with the other 500-700 police officers. But of course a nation of 20000 is going to attack Iran...yep let's do it now. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:29, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

We get it all off sports revenues and tourism! —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:44, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

All spearheaded by me But honestly an air force is just insane. Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:06, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * You are insane... let's just say UNLOR will step in again once something like this happens. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16)*跟我谈话 01:37, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good. It doesn't help the nation to have an official armed forces--for a nation as small as us, the police do the job. If a civil war happens, then UNLOR can help. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:43, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Also, let's put down "In case of dire emergency, the prime minister or congress may impose martial law and a request for agencies such as the United Nations or the United States' Army.", if TimeMaster agrees. -- 02:02, November 11, 2011 (UTC)\

ARE WE serious again? Dude,Marcus/Michael Villanova 02:08, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

No, the prime minister or congress should not be able to should decree "MARTIAL LAW GO TO UR HOUSE NOW KTHXBAI." —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:20, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

@Stupid Villa of Terra Nova: YOU SON OF A BISCUIT, I JUST WANT TO PROPOSE SOMETHING AND YOU OVERREACT. I KNOW I AM TOO KTHXBAI. -- 02:34, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I feel like we're in the middle of a yell fight in Parliament where two obscure representatives are yelling about how stupid each others ideas are. Except this time it's the PM and a non-congressor. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:53, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

The UNS (or what is left of it after the war) fully support the creation of a Lovian Army to prevent further conflicts in the near future. Without it, Lovia will never truly be free nor independent, as it will rely too heavily on allies such as the USA and Mexico to step in and save it's ass. The glorious First Consul of Rome 12:12, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Ha stupid villa of terra nova? Not even the jokes are good. On a more serious note I agree with Master voice, we do need a military, we do need it to be funded, no we are not going into any wars. Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:20, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * We aren't going into any wars, that's for sure. But we can easily be dragged into one against our will since we are a completely defenseless and rather weak nation. We are not Switserland, nor will we ever be. Lovia still has nationalists and extremists. It had them in the past, and they'll still be there in the future. The type of warmongering folk that begin conflicts are here and they are not going anywhere. To keep Lovia alive, free, and LOVIAN, first and foremost, our nation needs an army. The Civil War has proven, beyond doubt, that Lovia cannot sustain itself without one. The glorious First Consul of Rome 13:03, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:24, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Proposing a military does not mean that we are planning on stepping back into war. We are merely establishing an adequate defense force for those that want to take a stand next time insurrectionists try and overthrow Lovia. We do NOT plan on engaging in foreign affairs! An Army and a Navy are adequate, but adding an Air Force would mean more than just a shitload of military planes to produce. It would be a horrible idea in general. I proposed a Navy because Lovia is a maritime-based nation, and we should exploit the sea. Because we are such a small nation, I only approve of the two branches that I had proposed. Those two would be very possible to maintain with our resources.

Because the thought of us doing more than defending ourselves horrifies most of you, I had altered the name of our national military from the Lovian Armed Forces to the Lovian Defense Force. For the new, improved article, see: User:Pikapi/Thirteenth Amendment, and base your comments on that please. And please don't place any votes there, it isn't the official poll, that is just going to be my vote for when I copy & paste it to the Second Chamber, later. Thank you, and cheers.--LCPCOP Christopher Costello (Pikapi - Discuss) 14:26, November 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Your porposal sounds really good, so I'll be voting pro. HORTON11  14:42, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Why do you require an actual army? Why isn't a police, like the system in Costa Rica that Horton said, good enough for a country of 20,000? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:19, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Do we need an intelligence agency? I can't see why not. -- 13:21, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

I've learned to ignore your suggestions. Please think we're a peac keeping nation of 20000 Who is gonna bomb us? If we wanted to keep up a CIA of sorts is would take about 50 billion US dollars and since ours is prob weaker is would take a lot more. I'm socialist but i don't feel like taxing everyone and everything to 99.9%. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:28, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I say no to an army either. Just so you all know. 14:45, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Wait, Marcus, you don't approve? A military intelligence agency isn't one of the thinks that I need to keep, and it isn't really in the same field as the CIA. A naval intelligence agency only keeps track of what nations could pose a threat, and then analyzes their strengths and weaknesses. We don't have to tax anyone for this either. I have millions to kick-start a military. And we don't have to start producing weaponry, boats, equipment or anything! All of the equipment and tools of the dissolved Coastal Police would be transfered to the Navy, and I am willing to support the army to the best of my ability. Please remember that our military is not so much for outside threats as those that could tear our nation apart from the inside out...--LCPCOP Christopher Costello (Pikapi - Discuss) 15:13, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

If a civil war happens again, and somehow all those rebels have achieved really gun weapons, then we can call in UNLOR. Otherwise, a police force is perfectly sufficient for a nation our size. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:10, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Lovia should be independent and capable of taking care of it's own business, without having call in foreign nations to fight the battles for them. Only then can we truly be free and self-sufficient. All the arms you guys have taken from the rebels, what'cha gonna do with those, sell them, throw them in the ocean, give 'em to UNLOR? It'd be ridiculous. I say you take those guns and equip a LOVIAN army with them. It does not have to be big (in fact, it's more or less impossible for it to be big) but still. " 't is pompen of verzuipen"... The glorious First Consul of Rome 17:03, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Exactly my point! We, being a small little (mostly socialistic) nation, shouldn't even try pushing around the US and the UN, and calling them into our business. Eventually, they'll have enough. Lets not get pushed into this corner later, lets establish a defense force now!--LCPCOP Christopher Costello (Pikapi - Discuss) 02:43, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I still don't see how we can possibly upkeep such an army. . . they are very expensive and I also like the current names. An updated and strengthened police force, made by modifying the Federal Police Act and adding back the Local Police Act, would be a better choice, in my opinion. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:49, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Please don't keep amending my article, I never even had the chance to finish writing it yet. An updated version can be found here. --LCPCOP Christopher Costello (Pikapi - Discuss) 15:26, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

@Costello: It is not like the US shuns socialist countries. Just across the Ocean lies its little friend the UK, often ruled by a government that likes to think of itself as socialist. In fact, most of its European partners implement 'socialist' policies like huge social health care, price control mechanisms, etc. A lot of Americans would label certain Canadian laws as 'socialist' too. 06:28, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I am just stating that tensions may arise. On a similar note, you know what the US did when it suspected that the Russians would be converting Koreans to communism, right? An unnecessary war erupted. Anyways, I'll be proposing my article now before this forum gets to clogged with new stuff. Cheers,--LCPCOP Christopher Costello (Pikapi - Discuss) 00:14, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

035. Lovian Citizenship and Immigration Act
This is just to replace Article 3 of the Constitution, but this is a major rewrite.

-- 03:59, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

I find this a bit overdone. It seems to hand out universal citizenship to practically anyone. It also doesn't make enough distinction between the administrative side of the wiki and the creative/fictional one. I know this is a borderline subject, but still feel that the formulation of 'purely destructive for the wiki' doesn't belong on a piece of legislation. 06:51, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't the Constitution say that people can become citizens with x edits and y days, as well? Also, these scroll boxes are getting annoying, because they mess up the headers. I will have to either remove them or add includeonly tags. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:19, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

036. Rewrite the Constitution
With all these amendments being proposed, and the Constitution being cluttered even before this, I think we should heavily revamp the Constitution, reorganize it and change things. Thoughts? Some things we can add are the new police system being worked out by Pikapi, and possibly a new election system I'm conceiving. If we take this further we can just adopt a new Constitution, but keep several things the same, like what (fictionally) happened in 2007. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:39, November 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd support any amelioration. If you guys are in for some more radical legislation, I'm always willing to write a contribution too. But perhaps it is better to keep the amount of editors to a minimum, at least until we have a first draft version.  07:15, November 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * We could have a constitutional convention tomorrow (or Sunday unless Oos objects). Anyone up for 7 AM Lovia time (UTC -9 (not DST))? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:07, November 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, what is it? Or is it for MOTCs only? -- 22:15, November 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * No, everyone can come. Even you, Pierlot. I'll make a channel on Coldfront. 7:00 UTC -9, that's 19:00 in Belgium, and 13:00 in the US east coast, though we can make it earlier if any of you want, I guess. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:14, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so it's start up at #wikination. Instructions to get to the convention: Go to the chat. (Link) Accept all the warnings, and you should be in the #coldfront channel. Then type /join #wikination. Then go back to the #coldfront channel and click the X to close that chat window. Then type /nick [yourname], and you'll be set. I'm in there right now, so if you don't see me there was an error. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:20, November 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * Awesome but first two things::::::1) Let's set out a debate time frame like 13:00 -13:20 A debate on the role of congress, 13:20 - 13:40 Role of PM, 13:40 - 13;45 a break:::::or so forth.:::::2)I will be gone on sunday from 14:00 - 20:00 so i could still be there for 3 hrs.:::::and wait is this debate for today. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:23, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * It's telling to download some plug-in should I? Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:25, November 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, today, and do download the plug-in. There wasn't enough warning time so I am just starting once we get 4 people on or so, maybe 3. Before that we can just discuss things. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:26, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh well sorry. Can't do it family matters and such. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:29, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Not today? Why not? You were coming on before, before the plug-in debacle. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:33, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Also Marcus, what time zone were you using up when you were listing times? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:43, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

I cannot join. -- 13:59, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Weird, what errors is it giving? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:06, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Java (parse) errors. -- 14:21, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Is your java up to date? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:21, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * NVM, it was a stupid error of my fault. I'm on chat now. -- 14:22, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Damn thing isn't working, and I even downloaded Java. HORTON11  16:07, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * What errors is it giving? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:31, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Constitutional Convention
-- 16:59, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Pierlot and JeffW - In favor of abolishing states.
 * 2) JeffW - In favor of reforming the Unicameral system without two pages. One page will host all discussions and votes.
 * 3) Pierlot and JeffW - In favor of abolishing property limits.

I wouldn't mind merging the First and Second Chambers, but property limits and states are good. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:30, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * States should be kept - you know my stand on that. I prefer the unicameral system and here's why: it keeps everything clean. If you have voting and discussion on one page, it will get messy and you'll loose all oversight (my experience from the unicameral system in Mäöres) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 19:25, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's any worse than the current situation, though. Also, Oos, what times will you be available in the next week? I will be available mostly until thursday, friday, saturday, and perhaps sunday (8 days from now). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:02, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * So was there like only two people there? Or like 4 or 5 should we do another one? Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:20, November 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm never available actually, 'cause you guys are living in another time zone and you're awake when I'm asleep :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:15, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

There were three but only Pierlot and Jeff seriously discussed while I was afk. So we should do another one. And Oos, if you're in UTC +1, that's not the other side of the world from -5. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:15, November 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * Still this is not workable, 'cause at the time you are free to go IRCing, I'm at university or in the train :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:23, November 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * So i think we should do this again. sometime. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:34, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

Can everyone just list what times they are available in in Lovian time, UTC -9? We should aim for the first Saturday in December, about 11 days from now. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:58, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Eh? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:12, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Where is everyone? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:38, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

037. National soccer team
I would like to propose to congress to officially allow the creation of the Lovian National Soccer Team. I have created the page User:Horton11/Lovian National Soccer Team, but some coaching positions will need to be taken over. (as some users behind them are no longer here) HORTON11  15:38, November 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Make it yourself, it's fine. FIFA does not get subsidies from any country, does it? I don't think such strict regulations are needd. -- 16:51, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

038. Recess and Travel appointments
Under the certain holiday times I would propose a congressional law for lenacy for members during vacation times. Like the middle of the summer and the end of fall/begining of winter. Not to say congress would be shut down but just longer wait for bills in the first chamber and double the time for bills in the second chamber. Let's be honest no national assembly is open ALL YEAR. So let's change this.

Also within this for the next few days I will be meeting with foreign dignataries. With This I also have glad news two things:

1) In light of the global economy many investors are expecting the passage of a budget this year, I Will propose this in due time.

2)Our national economy grew to 77th largest in the world which is quite acceptional for such a small country.

In the next days I will be meeting with foriegn political leaders in Europe with some high ranking positions. Thank you. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:14, November 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * November 25th - First Minister of North Ireland - Peter Robinson
 * November 27th - President of Ireland - Michael D. Higgins
 * November 28th - The United Kingdom Exchequer - George Osborne
 * November 29th - French President - Nicholas Sarkozy
 * November 30th - Italian Prime Minister - Mario Monti


 * Jeff stop Only FIFA accepts a national team. So yeah it need congressional approval. I think it's nice . Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:14, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

The recess is pointless, but the second part sounds good. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:01, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

039. Labor Law Act
Several months ago, Yuri made this law to replace the current Labor Law Act which is not as good as this law. I think it ought to be made into law. What do you guys think? Here's the text: —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:50, December 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * 1) Every adult Lovian that foresees in his/her own income through labor as an employee can only do so by engaging in an employment contract.
 * 2) An employment contract is an agreement in which one party (the employee) commits himself or herself to work for another party (the employer) in exchange for a financial compensation.
 * 3) An employment contract is only valid when:
 * 4) Both parties are at least 16 and have permission from a parent or legal advisor when they are not yet 18.
 * 5) The function, working hours, working conditions, wage and duration of the contract are confirmed in a written agreement.
 * 6) Both parties agree on a voluntary basis and the volition is not deficient.
 * 7) It comprises the presence of a valid subject and a lawful cause.
 * 8) An employment contract is terminated:
 * 9) When the time of the duration of the employment contract as defined in the contract itself is expired.
 * 10) When both parties agree upon the termination of the employment contract under conditions specified and agreed upon by both parties.
 * 11) When at least one of the parties can not possibly fulfill his/her obligations due to conditions independent of that party his/her will.
 * 12) When one of the parties declares the employment contract terminated by issuing the dismissal.
 * 13) When the employer terminates the contract this way, the employee can demand a financial compensation of three month salaries.
 * 14) When the employee terminates the contract this way, the employer can demand the contract stands for up to one more week.
 * 15) When a judge declares the failure of at least one of the parties sufficient to terminate the employment contract as a whole.
 * 16) If declared terminated by a judge, the payment of a financial compensation for the duped party can be imposed on the party responsible for the failure.
 * 17) When a certain event enclosed in the employment contract as dissolving condition takes place.
 * 18) The following events can not be taken up as dissolving conditions: pregnancy, parenthood, marriage, reaching pension age and confiscation of the wage.
 * 19) When the employee dies or is missing for more than one week.
 * 20) After being employed under a labor contract for 40 years, an employee can retreat from the labor market, thus becoming pensioned.
 * 21) From the age of 55, all employees enter pension regardless of the years they have been under a labor contract.
 * 22) Pensioned people are legally entitled to a pension that is provided to them by the Social Security Fund.
 * 23) The hours an employee has to work are to be enclosed in an employment contract to make it valid.
 * 24) These hours are limited to eight hours a day and forty hours a week.
 * 25) All labor performed outside these limits are regarded as overtime.
 * 26) All labor performed from 8 p.m. to 6 a.m. is regarded as night labor.
 * 27) All labor performed on saturdays, sundays or recognized holidays is regarded as weekend labor.
 * 28) If an employee is put to work he/she has to work at least three successive hours.
 * 29) After six successive hours of work an employee has the right to have half an hour of rest.
 * 30) Each employee has the right to have eleven successive hours of rest a day.
 * 31) The conditions under which an employee performs his/her job have to be enclosed in an employment contract to make it valid.
 * 32) The conditions under which an employee performs his/her job may only pose the minimal acceptable threat to his/her safety, health or welfare.
 * 33) An employer is responsible for the consequences of his/her decisions on the employment conditions of his/her employees. End that he/she has to take the following measures:
 * 34) The prevention of risks and the evaluation of risks that couldn't be prevented within an acceptable margin.
 * 35) Giving priority to safety over profit when making decisions that affect the employment conditions.
 * 36) Informing the employee over possible risks in the light of his/her duty at his/her recruitment.
 * 37) An employee has to act in agreement with his/her training and given instructions to take care of his/her safety. End that he/she has to take the following measures:
 * 38) Make correct use of the provided machinery, tools and materials that may pose a threat to the employee's safety.
 * 39) Make correct use of the provided personal protective equipment.
 * 40) Make correct use of the provided safety mechanisms.
 * 41) The wage is defined by the employment contract but has to answer to the following provisions:
 * 42) The minimum wage is 14 dollars an hour, with a 30% digression for employees younger than 18.
 * 43) A compensating differential of 20% is to be given for labor at night, weekend labor, dangerous work or irregular hours.
 * 44) The wages as defined can be altered according to the inflation upon Congressional decision.
 * 45) The wages of all employees are protected by the following provisions:
 * 46) The employee can ordain his/her own wage without restrictions from the employer.
 * 47) All wages paid to Lovian residents are to be paid in US dollars unless he/she is employed in a foreign country, in which case he/she can demand payment in the coin of that country.
 * 48) Up to 1/5 of the wage can be paid in kind if this is desirable for the nature of the job and the employee was notified of this in advance.
 * 49) All wages are to be paid at least twice a month with no more than 16 days between each payment.
 * 50) Certain payments can legally be subtracted from the wage before payment.
 * 51) These subtractions should not comprise more than 1/5 of the total wage unless when the employee did deliberate damage or quits before the entire debt is redeemed.
 * 52) Payments that can legally be subtracted from the wage before payment are:
 * 53) Contributions for the Social Security Fund which are imposed by Congress through the taxation policy.
 * 54) Fines which are owed to the employer and are imposed by the agreed labor regulation of the employment contract.
 * 55) Damages which are owed to the employer and inflicted during the exercise of the job for that employer.
 * 56) Advance payments already made by the employer with agreement of the employee.
 * 57) An employee is default by disease if he/she unable to perform his/her job due to a physic disease or mental condition.
 * 58) An employee who is default by disease has right to full payment if he/she notifies his/her employer of the situation.
 * 59) The employer can demand proof of a medical opinion or ask for a second opinion of a competent examiner appointed by the employer.
 * 60) All wages paid to an employee default by disease for more than 30 successive days are paid for 60% by the Social Security Fund.
 * 61) If the default is caused by an occupational injury or disease, the employer has to pay the full wage for the entire duration of the default.
 * 62) All employers are obliged to take insurance against occupational injuries and diseases, either private or through the Social Security Fund.
 * 63) All employers are obliged to take as much measures against occupational injuries and diseases as reasonable.
 * 64) Extra regulation can be imposed through organized collective bargaining between unions and sectors.
 * 65) The extra regulation is only valid when all parties agreed on a voluntary basis and the volition is not deficient.
 * 66) The extra regulation may concern vacations, recruitment, working hours, wages and working conditions.
 * 67) The extra regulation may not violate the marginal boundaries and regulations of the labor law.

I don't know if I'm allowed to comment here but shouldn't this really wait until after elections? Kunarian 22:18, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

We're not even in the voting stage yet, I don't see it as a problem at all. This is just a good law to protect laborers. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:25, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

True, some parts are unquestionably good others may protect labourers but harm employers and businesses, especially small businesses. But thats my final word. This is a matter for the leaders of Congress not a backbencher. Kunarian 22:29, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

Any MOTCs up for discussion? Is this law missing anything? Yuri's laws are generally perfect, though, so perhaps not. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:19, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

Why does no one care? Would anyone mind if I move this to Second Chamber? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:08, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

Apologies, I didn't see this. It looks good in essence. I corrected one spelling mistake. --Semyon 19:43, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe Lovian English doesn't change -yed to -id (as in payed vs paid). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:03, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

I Like this as a Labour Party. I'll vote pro! Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:00, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

040. Census change
I want there to be a population boom for several reason. One to make things realistic. We have alot of sports clubs and things but only like 20000 citizens. I good population boom to 45000 or to 60000 is needed to make things realistic and kinda show we are a serious force.

Two we need to also pass a budget. And in this budget we have a pretty Socialized Health care system, Social Security and alot of benefits but for who? 20000 people that really doesn't make sense. Also what kinda loops into this is tax revenue. So I wanna change these numbers so we can have a serious and better lovia. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:06, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

So here's a formula (N = Variable):

All states start with 550 people do to rural regions which aren't incroporated into Hamlets or towns, etc.
 * Old Hamlet/Village formula: 200 + (N x 121)
 * New Hamlet/Village formula: 210 + (N x 130)
 * Old Town Formula: 1000 + (N x 121)
 * New Town Formula: 1275 + (N x 165)
 * Neighboorhood Old formula: 100 + (N x 121)
 * Neighboorhood New Formula: 120 + (N x 125)
 * And the city formula stays the ammount of neighboorhoods combined. This needs a quick response and vote and a new census will take place in the week...I'll do it of course. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:16, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

No, we should completely change history instead. The connection between the fake population and wikiusers should stop, so we can just set the number of people at a realistic number instead of multiplying wikiusers by a random number. Also, it's too early for a census. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:39, December 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * It has been proposed before to increase historical populations as well. I quite agree with doing that, but it would mean a lot of work. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:56, December 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * What do you think we should do? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:04, December 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Pass a law/whatever vote is necessary with this change so I can implement it (next week my Christmas holiday period of two weeks start) and there is no problem at all :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:55, December 19, 2011 (UTC)

Specail Forces of Lovia
I would like to come to congress to propose that the Special forces are recognised as a land companion to the Coastal police. I will say that honestly I do not like armies and violence, but in the Civil war there were many deaths and the regular police did not do well. I will let congress decide everything to be the most democratic and also so no body has unlimited control.Granero 01:42, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

This special forces has been operating as what is termed under Lovian law as a private militia. Congress has already refused the bill that would have made the so called special forces of lovia the standard land forces. I am taking them to court on accounts of illeagally owning firearms and of operating a private militia on Lovian soil. Kunarian 01:48, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

This is not a private militia! It is part of the police made for public security. If you want I can tone it down and make it more like a police, I can even rename to Special Police of Lovia. But, please I do not want to go to court for this, it is bad enough to go to court. Granero 02:44, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

And also could you recognise the Lovia Coastal Police, it is vital to the national security as well. Granero 02:48, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

It was my understanding it had been recognised. if not it may be included in the court case. Kunarian 03:15, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

I second the motion to recognize these entities which have been vital to Lovia's security during the Civil War. Though Kunarian dies have a point over control so maybe congress should operate them directly but with nominal control under Mr. Costello and Mr. Berbashov. HORTON11 : •  19:54, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

I argue that the coastal police stay as they were approved before, they are not in question. What is in question is the special forces of Lovia, they need to be taken from a military level and put onto a police level, I was hardly aware we had the money to fund this in the department of welfare and still have enough to fund hospitals, one of the two is being neglected and its not the "special forces". They should only operate on a law enforcement level as the coastal police has done and should not take priority over other items in the department of welfare. Kunarian 20:07, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

The Dept. of Welfare has not funded this yet, have you not seen our large hospital funding program put in operation recently? I agree theis should be more like a police (Costa Rica has a specialized police instead of an army). Perhaps we should rename it to Lovian Defense Force, used only for defense against any threats. HORTON11 : •  20:11, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

No, they shall not be our armed forces. And how do you expect to fund the 200 man force that equips itself with military weapons. Kunarian 20:16, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

Horton, you know I've already proposed the Lovian Defense Force a while back, and it got denied because no one wanted it. As much as I support a military, this isn't really the time or place to recap that earlier proposal. I would be glad to incorporate any willing members of the Special Forced into the Coastal Police for now, and when we have the time and we all decide to create a military, they can return as an Army, and the Coastal Police can become our navy. That would mean we don't have to deduct anymore of the Lovian population, that might serve in the military. Back to the subject, though, what do you think about my proposal?-- LCPCOP Christopher Costello (Pikapi - Discuss) 20:29, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

I am still agianst the idea. But to integrate them into the Coastal Police is the best short term solution but would mean taking on too many members, you may simply have to lay some off. We need quality in Lovia not quantity. Kunarian 20:34, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

I saw that the arguments were not doing anything good, and also I chatterd with my cousin and I decided to change it to Lovian Defence Force.

1. The Lovian Defence Force will act mainly like the civil defence and emergency aid team but secondly like an army.

2. The official abreviation is LDF

3. The LDF will do humanitarian aid for hurracanes, tsunamis, and natural disasters.

4. In times of wars like the Civil war congress may decide to have the LDF operate the army portion and use weaponst to protect Lovians annd defend the country.

That is my plan. Granero 22:13, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

This is just a face for you to install your own military piece as the Lovian Army. I will not support it and will make sure that other members of congress flatten these bypasses of the legal system. 82.18.203.83 22:21, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

This is not my own military piece, it is for all of Lovia. Granero 22:25, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

What that you lead and control without consulting congress one bit? not at all. not at all. 82.18.203.83 22:31, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

Congress will decide everything, not me. Granero 22:35, December 20, 2011 (UTC)