Forum:First Chamber

__NEWSECTIONLINK__ In Lovia, Congress is the national legislative body and the most powerful branch of government. The First Chamber is one of the two chambers of Congress, in which the Members of the Congress propose bills and debate them. The Second Chamber is where they are eventually voted. Despite the two-chamber system, Lovia does not have a bicameral parliament: there is only one group of MOTCs that both debates and votes the proposals. For the current composition of Congress, see this.

As prescribed by Article 6 of the Constitution, all Lovian citizens "may write and propose motions to the Federal Law", that "are presented to the Members of the Congress in the First Chamber." The MOTCs' duty is to "read the motion and form a personal opinion about it. In order to obtain the support of a majority of Members of the Congress, changes may be proposed in the First Chamber." If a majority is likely to be found, the proposer will move the bill to the Second Chamber for a vote.

The First Chamber is not a popular assembly where all citizens can express their personal interests. Polling the population ought to happen outside of Congress.

2013 Congress
Welcome again, MOTCs, to the 2013 Congress! First on our agenda is forming a government, followed by an election of the Speaker of the Congress. Afterward, we should aim to create a tax code, pass more laws relating to the economy, and possibly reform the states.

It appears that Ilava has won the informal vote to become Prime Minister, so I would like to invite him to propose a government. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:43, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Speaker.  Happy65   Talk CNP   09:22, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

He just said the Speaker still had to be elected. :P 77topaz (talk) 09:32, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Well, he was speaker before the elections, and he technically remains speaker until the elections are done. Therefore he is still speaker :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:26, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

So, Oos, can you propose your government? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:02, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Have we decided on the list? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:05, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe not, but you can still propose one. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:06, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Anyway, we need the ministry of Family, Youth and Elderly :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:09, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Okay :P But I'd also like Education --> Education and Research and Agriculture --> Food, Agriculture, (and Fisheries?). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:12, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good, including the fishery part :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:18, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

So. . . are you going to propose one? ;) —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:52, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Oh yeah, later today :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:01, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a proposal here yet. :P 77topaz (talk) 02:32, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, forgot it and there was noone in my time zone to remind me of it :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:40, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Proposal

 * Prime Minister
 * Oos Wes Ilava
 * Ministry of Food, Agriculture, and Fisheries
 * Charles Alexander Bennett
 * Ministry of Commerce
 * Dave Leskromento
 * Ministry of Culture
 * Oos Wes Ilava
 * Ministry of Defense
 * Lukas Hoffmann
 * Ministry of Education and Research
 * William Krosby
 * Ministry of Energy and Resources
 * Charles Alexander Bennett
 * Ministry of Environment
 * Nicholas Sheraldin
 * Ministry of Family, Youth, and Elderly
 * Oos Wes Ilava
 * Ministry of Finance
 * William Krosby
 * Ministry of Foreign Affairs
 * Justin Abrahams
 * Ministry of Health
 * Taiyō no Eisei
 * Ministry of Justice
 * Dave Leskromento
 * Ministry of Labour
 * Marcus Villanova
 * Ministry of Tourism and Sport
 * Nicholas Sheraldin
 * Ministry of Transportation
 * Jhon Lewis
 * Speaker of the Congress
 * Semyon Breyev

Looks nice overall, but I don't like the "Comestibles" part of the new name for Agriculture much. In addition, Kunarian didn't sign up for the Education post at the sign-up forum, and I made User:TimeMaster/Education, so I would really like to have that post. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 11:54, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * See: . --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:16, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Woop, there's even more discussion :| So, the problematic points are:
 * Health: Is Eisei suitable as his views on health care seem to differ from the general views.
 * Education: Is Krosby willing to include Religious and Special-needs education?
 * Speaker: I think Semyon should get this. He doesn't have anything right now while he is one of our top politicians. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:19, February 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm neutral on religious education (I will not actively support or oppose it, but will obey Congress) and pro on special-needs education. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:22, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'd really rather have health. And i'd say Time should be in education, as he has shown a lot of interest. HORTON11 : •  13:35, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I think Semyon should be Speaker, but I definitely want to keep health as I wouldn't get any other position, because my other choice was defense, but Kunarian only signed up for defense, and he has more political power than me. As far as I'm concerned, put Semyon in Speaker and that would be good. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 22:56, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

With Health I support QZ for his respect for the process of government, I feel that some others may simply use the position just to push their ideas through rather than look at the options and let the governors (preferably) or government decide on what happens. I feel that an impulsive Minister in this position could cause problems due to them viewing the position as one of power rather than responsibility, and for that reason I'd hope we could choose someone not in the big camps and who would therefore be more impartial and from my point of view QZ fits that. I fear Horton would end up deciding that because he had been allocated the position that it is his position to choose the health policy. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 23:08, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I toowant to have the Health position. I have good ideas and will be cooperative with the others to create the programs. Granero (talk) 23:57, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

This has turned into a "I want" "I want to create" scenario. Just propose this, it seems fine to me most people don't do squat with there position anyway :I Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:24, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

We could possibly have some deputy ministers. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:14, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

It seems pointless, in a government with no opposition who cares if there's a deputy, to question or hold accountable when most Primary ministers do nothing or minimal work anyway :/ Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:47, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Granero, you aren't too active though... This decreases your likeliness of getting the ministry, and you don't have any unique views on the health care system from what I know. I want health because I actually have knowledge on the subject (in lots of these other ministries I don't), and I have unique view points. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 03:04, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

I'd rather it just stay as "Ministry of Agriculture". Fishries, which seek to make a real living are ethier praticing Aquaculture or mass fishing (nets and such) are still considerd "... is the cultivation of  animals ,  plants ,  fungi, and other life forms for  food ,  fiber ,  biofuel  and other products used to sustain human life." Which would still be straight forward with just saying 'Agriculture.' Now if its for simply game, that would go under Tourism & Sport or Enviormental ministries. -Sunkist- (talk) 03:19, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, this is what I'm gonna propose. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:52, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

001. Notice
I, acting for and on behalf of HRH Dimitri I, as Speaker of the Congress, hereby declare this congressional term open. From now until the inauguration of its successor government, according to the Constitution, the Second Ilava Government shall be the supreme executive body in the Kingdom of Lovia. --Semyon 17:20, February 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, arguably not, but it's not my fault the constitution is so ambiguous. :P --Semyon 17:22, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Supreme executive body. Anyway, I'm going to archive the negotiations. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:29, February 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Good thing that was what I said, then. :P --Semyon 17:35, February 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:50, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

002. Voting Reform
I propose that the current system of voting in Federal Elections, with one major vote, one minor vote, and one support vote, be replaced with a system of five equally-ranked votes. Thoughts? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:08, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Mmmm... Doesn't that increase the number of seats given to inactive users? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:05, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Would this system allow giving more than one vote to a single user? --Quarantine Zone (talk) 17:48, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe, Oos, but we could also put a protection against inactive users running. And you wouldn't be able to give more than one vote to one candidate. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:10, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm very much contra that (they are citizens too). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:32, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not what I'm proposing. Besides, it would still reduce their ability to slam down the major votes on famous old people who are the only people they know. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:47, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

I think this would spread votes too much actually. I would have on vote for me, one for Nathan, and then three between CCPL, Semyon, CNP. More than likely Nathan wouldn't have any seats, and I would have 1 maybe 2. People will just vote within their party if their party is big, and if their party is small they won't get very many seats. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 18:18, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Well, unfortunately, that's kind of the point. To refuse self voting, so if your support comes from only two people, you will receive few seats, but if from many, you will receive more. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:36, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

New users wouldn't get into Congress though, and I don't think it would represent the votes as accurately. It would force people to vote for people that they don't like very much or only semi-support.--Quarantine Zone (talk) 19:42, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

I think the system works ok actually. A lot of people were panicking (including me? no... :P) about 'rotation' but in the end the results we got were broadly acceptable. I think we just have to be pragmatic and accept that if we want to keep the OOC users voting for IC politicians thing (which I hope we do) that it has some inherent flaws, which result in some users receiving seats out of proportion to their contribution to the site. --Semyon 22:13, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

I think that the same flaw that semyon mentioned about out of proportion seats would appear in the new system as well. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 22:32, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

the current system ain't broke. It's the best defense against inactives, even though it alows some inactives in. Don't become a nickclegg liberal trying to reform everything :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:14, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

I must say I'm a bit surprised about how no one supports this even though 2/3 of people in chat a month ago did. :/ Also, Marcus, this would be the "best defense against inactives", as they can't just slam down major votes on the only people they know (the effect is diluted), and can't self-vote and get into Congress if no-one else supports them. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:16, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah but with five equal votes people like Oos and Hoffman who maybe work for there seats and are active will become marginalised against people from the LMP or MCP, who are barely active. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:22, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

003. Weapons and Hunting Act
I'm bringing this back! Woohoo! Hopefully we can get this passed through. I've made a little bit of revision, and if anyone has any suggestions just drop them below. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 17:59, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

I'll be very honest with you the orginal law was written by a centrist liberal but was very appealing to me, and as a peace activist I really want to see no change to the law. I find it to be near perfect. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:20, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Concealed weapons licenses must be obtained in order to own sheathed knives over 6 inches in length, guns under 12 inches in length (including knife guns), and ballistic knives.
 * 2) All owners must be 24 years of age.
 * 3) Ballistic knives and sheath knives are not considered fire arms.
 * 4) Licenses can only be granted to hunters who are of 12 years of age, but all firearms used by anyone under the age of 18 must be legally registered to their legal parents and/or guardians.
 * 5) Licenses can only be granted to hunters whose firearm is fit for hunting; thus only handguns of .50-calliber or fewer, rifles of .50-caliber or fewer, shotguns of 10-gauge and greater, cross bows, hunting bows, and spears are allowed.
 * 6) All automatic weapons are illegal, except in the case of an official government military, militia, or police.
 * 7) Switchblade knives are illegal to manufacture, trade, sell, buy, and own.
 * 8) Bayonets are illegal to manufacture, trade, sell, and buy.
 * 9) Bullets containing poison, napalm, toxins, and explosives are illegal to manufacture, trade, buy, sell, and own, except in the case of an official government military, militia, or police.
 * 10) In the case of an official government, military, militia, or police, soft chemical explosives are still illegal.
 * 11) Hunters are legally bound to register with the Ministry of Defense annually to renew their hunting license. Once licenses are renewed, said hunters are legally aloud to hunt for the year.
 * 12) Hunters may only hunt a total of 24 times a year.
 * 13) Hunters must register with the Ministry of Defense at least 36 hours in advance in order to go hunting.
 * 14) All hunters are required to wear a bright orange hat. If the color of the hat is challenged to not be bright orange, a court case may be held to determine this.
 * 15) The fine for this will be 200 Lovian dollars. If they hat is orange, but deemed not bright orange, the fine will be 90 Lovian dollars.
 * 16) Newly manufactured items that have a similar look or use to firearms are required to have orange tips to signify that they are not legally firearms.
 * 17) This includes but is not limited to water guns, airsoft guns, paintball guns, pellet guns, BB guns, and model guns.
 * 18) The following sections of Article 3 of the Criminal Law Book are repealed:
 * 19) Section 1.2.2.2 "Licenses can only be granted to hunters who have reached the age of twenty-one on the day the license is to be granted."
 * 20) Section 1.2.2.6 "Licenses can only be granted to hunters whose firearm is fit for hunting; thus only handguns, rifles and shotguns are allowed."
 * 21) Section 1.2.6 "Hunters are legally bound to register with the Minister of Defense, at least one week in advance, if and when they are willing to hunt in group, that is three or more hunters, all of which must have a license to carry a firearm, and no more than twice a month."

What about the loopholes? Bayonets and switchblades were legal, and fake guns look just like real ones? Don't those pose as legitimate problems to you? --Quarantine Zone (talk) 02:34, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

it was  a "firearms" act not weaponry act. If you want bayonets and switchblades to be regulated (which I support) go for it. But the fake guns yeah just add a provision to the existing act. We do disagree on this issue you being conservative and me more on the left. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:17, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I got this changed to Weapons and Hunting Act

Still doesn't change my objection :P Wait is this to replace the current act or add to it...? Marcus/Michael Villanova 02:01, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

This is in addition to the old act, with the exceptions to the three parts that I suggested be repealed, but the parts that I repealed were replaced by other things in the act. Like 1.2.2.6 of the original is replaced by 2.1 of the new one. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 02:17, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

"Licenses can only be granted to hunters who are of 12 years of age." I have to disagree with this. 16 or 18 I'd say. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:32, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

The mental maturity of children who are 12-18 isn't much different actually. It wouldn't be that much of a difference in the end. The hunting accidents aren't caused by 12 year olds (in America 10). The law also specifies that they must hunt with their parents and with their parents gun, and their parents have to be 24 to own the guns, so there are precautions in there. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 16:09, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Though the mental maturity might not be so much different according to you, the mental being is still way more easily influencable, and therefore I'd prefer to have as little exposure to guns until a legal age. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:17, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, what about all the people who enjoy hunting as a hobby? They won't be able to hunt until they are 18. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 17:44, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah well, smoking is my hobby too and I officially couldn't get cigarettes until I was 16 è :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:31, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

But smoking is bad for your health especially at a young age; whereas, allowing 12 year olds to hunt with their parents who are over 18, both of which have hunting licenses, isn't going to hurt anyone. If you were to smoke when you were 12, your health would be drastically affected. Hunting at 12 isn't hurting the hunter or other people. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 01:27, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

That's ignoring hunting accidents. :P 77topaz (talk) 21:46, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Topaz, if you read what I said earlier, you would know that hunting accidents are rarely ever caused by youths. Hunting accidents are caused by people being ignorant and stupid. Just to top it off though, on average, about 100 people die in hunting accidents per year in the U.S. and there are about 800 total accidents. This is far less than injuries than in any common sport, and 1,500 people die while swimming per year on average. (Both of those are straight of the DNR.) The whole argument of safety on this is ludicrous. The majority of Lovian community doesn't understand this because the majority of the community doesn't hunt, and/or fails to do any research on hunting statistics. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 23:48, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

004. Marriage Act: 2013 Rewrite
As a concerned Lovian, I propose to change our Marriage Act in subtle ways to make it more open-minded. Lovians - progressives and conservatives alike - are open-minded people, who care deeply about liberty, but also equality, justice, and harmonious living. I found that the Marriage Act was well-written, but did not account for a few things, and had a few very old-fashioned and liberty-restricting elements.

The rewrite I propose is not a radical overhaul. My own politics are those of radical overhaul, but with this proposal, I just want to bring minor, beneficial change to Lovia. I hope it shows I am serious about politics, and that I care about coalitions, alliances, and goodwill in politics.

The original text can be found in the Federal Law.

Proposed version Marriage Act

 * 1) Marriage is an understanding between two adult people, referred to as parties, who voluntarily agree to take up certain rights and duties.
 * 2) The spouses have the duty to live in harmony with each other, offering each other respect, affection, consolation, and care and treating each other in fairness.
 * 3) The spouses have the duty to communicate with each other and make informal agreements concerning both the personal and professional including work, the household, sex, parenting, and finances, and to verbally resolve any conflicts. Considering the possibility that the spouses cannot come to an agreement on their own terms, it is the duty of both spouses to counsel for advice from a third party.
 * 4) The spouses have the right to retain their autonomy within their marriage including the right to choose and perform the profession of their liking, the right to keep personal finances, and the right to individually see and meet people.
 * 5) The spouses share the responsibility to take care of their children or others in their custody as well as of their possessions and properties.
 * 6) Both spouses share the liability to all expenses made for the benefit of the spouses’ child or children, which can be proven to be essential to the well being of the child.
 * 7) While the spouses have the right to make any informal or formal arrangement as to whom pays what, the law can enforce the shared liability of expenses of the above-described type in the case that conflict arises and the existing arrangement is fundamentally unfair to either or both spouses.
 * 8) Each spouse must bear the marital burdens in accordance to his or her capital and provide the partner with vitals.
 * 9) Marriage can only be solemnized if all of the following conditions are met:
 * 10) Each of the parties is at least 18 years old, or 16 given that the parents or custodians of the less than 18-year-old party fully consent with the marriage;
 * 11) Each of the parties agrees with the marriage on a voluntary basis;
 * 12) None of the parties is already in a standing marriage under Lovian law or under similar law in the country where the marriage was carried out;
 * 13) The parties are not genetically related in the first or second degree ruling out marriages between parents and children, brothers and/or sisters, aunts and/or uncles, and nephews and/or nieces, and cousins.
 * 14) The solemnization of a marriage is carried out in public before a representative of the law.
 * 15) A representative of the law is the Governor of the State in which the marriage is solemnized, a person appointed by that Governor, or any person who is in public service in the federal or state government.
 * 16) No representative of the law may refuse to solemnize a marriage if all the legal conditions are met, unless he or she conscientiously objects to the solemnization, in which case he or she shall report his objections to a Deputy Governor or another representative of the law who must then contact the parties to arrange for solemnization to take place under his or her supervision. The government is legally bound to solemnize any marriage that conforms to the demands set forth by the law.
 * 17) The parties sign a marriage contract at the public solemnization agreeing to the conditions laid out by the law. The representative of the law acts as a witness and validates the contract by signing it as well.
 * 18) A marriage is considered terminated in each one of the following cases:
 * 19) If the marriage is proven to not have been legally solemnized;
 * 20) If one of the spouses obtains a cancellation of the marriage contract;
 * 21) A spouse can cancel a marriage through a lawsuit if he or she proves that the other spouse has neglected his or her duties as a spouse;
 * 22) In this case, the neglecting spouse can be sanctioned to provide financial support to the neglected spouse.
 * 23) In this case, the judge must decide upon an arrangement concerning raising the spouses’ child or children, taking into account the opinions and wishes of both spouses as well as of the children concerned.
 * 24) Unless one of the spouses is considered an immediate threat to the health and security of a child, every person has the right to have regular contact and communication with his or her child.
 * 25) Every arrangement decided upon by a judge must take into account the health, security, and happiness of the child and the spouses’ ability to provide for those.
 * 26) If both spouses agree upon the termination of their marriage, effectively cancelling the marriage contract in the presence of a representative of the law.
 * 27) Upon the death of one of the spouses, or both, but only if the remaining spouse requests the cancellation.
 * 28) One year after one of the spouses has been reported as missing and has not been found, but only if the remaining spouse requests the cancellation.

Proposed changes
In the proposed version, some of the terminology has been changed, either to increase uniformity and clarity, or to reflect a more open-minded spirit. No mention is made of homosexuality, though: our law already allows for same-sex marriage.

The duties and rights of married people change, so that they are no longer obliged to actually live together (it is possible to be married harmoniously and live in separate places) and are no longer legally obliged to be sexually faithful to each other. Instead, extra emphasis is put on the emotional duties of married couples. Also expanded is the section on how to resolve marriage conflicts, including those with children.

The age at which marriage can be solemnized is lowered to 16, given the parents' consent.

The solemnization is simplified. A couple in want of a marriage only needs a representative of the law, more broadly defined now: the governor, someone appointed by him/her, or anyone else representing Lovian government. The "announcement" period is no longer needed.

The law explicitly states that "No representative of the law may refuse to solemnize a marriage if all the legal conditions are met". At the urging of Ooswesthoesbes, a provision is included to allow for conscientious objection by the representative of the law. A simple but efficient procedure is included to arrange for such cases.

Termination of the marriage contract by a single party, through a lawsuit, is rewritten. Provisions are included on what the judge can decide, financially and in the matter of children. The stress is on making harmonious arrangements and looking after the child's interests. A divorce should not be a war, and the child should never be its victim.

Thank you for your consideration. Punarbhava (talk) 17:43, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

Well done on taking the time to write such a long article.  Happy65   Talk CNP   19:52, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, the law is fairly well written. There are some punctuation errors and typos that need to be fixed. There are a few things that I think should be changed though. I think that marriage before 18 isn't responsible. Marriage is very serious, and getting married at 16 would be very stressful and 16 year olds could be hasty and marry someone too early. Even if their parents agree it could still be irresponsible. Also, this law doesn't outlaw marriage between cousins. Even marriage between cousins causes deformation and health diseases in children VERY quickly. Even cases with 2nd cousins has been known to commonly cause deformation and health diseases. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 22:00, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Good points. I will specifically add cousins to the list. Punarbhava (talk) 06:54, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * I do believe, however, that some 16 year olds are mature enough to engage in a serious, lasting relationship. If anything, Lovia has shown that young people can achieve great things. (Is it not the king and the political elite who were only teenagers when they begun this nation?) With the provision of the parents' full consent, I think we can build in a safety. I do not believe the right to marry will be used by many minors when this law takes effect. But if it does, it will be by mature, consenting young (near-)adults, with their parents' consent, and with the legal protection of the law. Punarbhava (talk) 06:54, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Barring people over 18 from marrying people under 18 might avoid some problems. 77topaz (talk) 06:59, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think it will. Marriages with people that have great age differences would just occur when the other party reaches 18, and the smaller age differences (16 & 18, 17 & 19, 17 & 18) would not be able to marry. In addition, I really don't consider 18 to be a much more mature stage of development than 16. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:39, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with the points TM has made. Being an adult does not just happen the day the planet has made exactly 18 turns around the sun since you left the uterus. 18, just as 16, is an arbitrary age. Of course, legally, we need some sort of benchmark. 18 is a good one, I believe, but it won't hurt to make it more gradual. So those who are exceptionally mature, and are in a stable relationship that enjoys the approval of the parents, can enjoy the legal status other (possibly less or more mature) couples have. Punarbhava (talk) 14:36, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * You have to draw a line somewhere though. I could use exactly the same arguments to say - well, some fourteen year-olds are mature enough to get married, so we'll let them if they're exceptionally mature for their age. Also, the fact that parents approve doesn't indicate anything about the 'maturity' of the couple or the 'stability' of the relationship. Personally I think it better to have a single and simple distinction: those above 18 can marry, those below can't. @TM: I find 18 year-olds to be significantly more mature than 16 year-olds, though that's very possibly due to expectations of society rather than a natural thing. --Semyon 12:27, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, we should draw a line. We have drawn a line. It's at 18. We would, however, include a provision that would allow for some exceptions. Why? Because some people really want to get married. And I understand that. I know what love is like and I know that sometimes, you just don't want to wait one or two more years. And why should they? If they consider themselves ready for marriage, who are we to say no? What's the harm, anyway? In fact, the new law would actually push the marrying parties towards greater cooperation, harmony, communication, etc.
 * The parents' approval is just to make sure there is no abuse. We don't want 16 year old girls or boys marrying someone abusive under any circumstances. Punarbhava (talk) 13:20, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * The issue I have is that you draw the line at 18, but then say 'No, we'll let people who really want to and are 'mature' to get married if they're younger' when the criterion that your using to decide whether people love each other enough or are mature enough is whether their parents agree - something which isn't related at all. --Semyon 21:00, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a valid point. There is no way to test maturity, except the willingness of the parties to commit. The law does provide various safeties to give weight to the commitment: age, duties, parental approval, etc. That's about as much any law can do. Punarbhava (talk) 21:40, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, even though I believe 16 to be too young, it is an improvement of the older law, which didn't specify any age (a 5-year old could marry a 14-year old if they'd have permission of the parents and a legal advisor; not likely, but theoretically possible). The announcement thing - yeah.. I think it is necessary though. You can't expect the Government to be ready for any marriage any time. Now you could just kick in the door and claim your marriage. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:33, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * The new version eliminates unnecessary bureaucracy. You do have a good point. This is how I see it. Since Lovia has no actual administration - marriages are solemnized by an individual who represents the government - it is self-evident that the two parties must contact a representative themselves (as is the case in every country) and can only see their marriage solemnized as soon as a government official is available. If the person contacted is not online, or temporarily very busy, they'll have to wait a bit. If the representative is present, finds that the conditions are being met, and does not object, then it's done. Simple as that. Considering activity can be very fleeting on a wiki, direct accomplishment is the best way to deal with these things. Punarbhava (talk) 16:42, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

I think this can be moved to the Second Chamber. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:47, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Oos! I now confide this bill to you, as I have no voting rights yet . (By the way, could you arrange for my citizenship? For some reason, I have not been registered yet.) Punarbhava (talk) 07:54, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I added you to this list. Consider yourself citizen now :)
 * Unfortunately, I don't have time to do that until Saturday. So, if nobody else will move it, it'd have to wait. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:01, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Could I do it? Punarbhava (talk) 09:53, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I like it, but do we really need to mention each spouse's must duties in the marriage? People should be allowed to decide for themselves. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:01, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * And they are. If they want no duties, and don't care about the protection they offer (which is their good right), then legal marriage is nothing for them. If they do, that's what this law is for. Punarbhava (talk) 14:36, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well then doesn't this make arranged marriages illegal? HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:25, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * How do you mean? I don't see how this relates. Punarbhava (talk) 15:45, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Arranged marriages being illegal is not necessarily bad. :P 77topaz (talk) 19:18, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Arranged marriages are not the subject of this act. It should be clear, however, that marriage (as defined by this law, but also by the previous version) comes with duties and rights, and commitments. Emotional, financial... Preventing arranged marriages, if Lovia considers that a priority, should be done by raising public awareness. Maybe a media campaign? Punarbhava (talk) 21:40, February 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Is this in addition to the old marriage act or replacing it? --Quarantine Zone (talk) 01:31, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Replacement. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:13, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think at this point theres some nitpicking going on, what was set out was to define marraige as two praticipants, clearing the vauge law. I think we've added more in and should get it to the second chamber soon. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:04, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Has spelling and grammar been checked by a native now? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:11, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

I fully support this bill. I think someone should take this to the Second Chamber, although I can't as I am not a citizen yet, or an MOTC Frijoles333 (talk) 06:55, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

005. 2013 Jobs and Highway


I think we all know government can improve the lifes of citizens, help buisnesses grow and create growth in our economy. We were sent here to improve the opportunity to sucess and I would like to start this year with a jobs bill that will help the hard hit areas of Train Village and promote growth in Charleston.

Let's look at the areas this will affect: But I also included new construction for the north: How will this be paid? Any ideas/comments? Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:05, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Western Sylvania: 4.89 million dollars will be poured into the areas to repair roads connect and to create the new highway, create 350 jobs and allow companies in Charleston and Train Village to connect their services and have a chance to faster transportation. Two lanes going both ways will be able to create new opportunites to the future and with courtesy to nature, will go around scenic routes and leave nature alone.
 * Seven: Highway 6 is a great highway connecting the two most populated islands of Seven. Still in this act I add in another 1.42 million dollars of funding to create an extra connection to east kinley and another branch going into Amish kinley. The construction shows we have a commitment to all citizens of Lovia and wanting to improve travel speeds at any cost.
 * With taxes and a budget coming up hopefully, with this being pre-approved it will be covered to promote transporation and labour across the coutnry.
 * Noble City Area: Until 2015 we will add in two tolls in the outer area and inner area. The toll will be 0.75 lovian dollars and will allow access through the the other tolls for the rest of the day. So if you need to go to work through even two of the tolls, both ways it will only cost .75 for the entire day. By 2016 I plan that we lower the toll to .50 and keep it there.


 * I would like to protest! Invest heavily in constructing new highways? Even more cars, more pollution... Please NO. Think about alternatives: clean and fast railways, investing in better public transit. Punarbhava (talk) 18:14, February 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * Agreed. It would be good to reduce car travel and promote train travel. Also, Marcus, I think you meant tolls, not polls. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:17, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

I think the activist is right and I agree with him but as a small i'd say still developing nation can we afford it? We already have railways to help the urban downtown areas, and areas elsewhere but this is to connect two far ranging cities, a highway is needed. I think if we implemented a high speed rail, more of nature would be destroyed even as we go around the bulk of sylvania's beauty. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:22, February 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) I think that investing in more eco friendly and economically beneficial transport such as railways or docks is a better way to go.
 * 2) and when it comes to connecting distant areas I'd say that most areas are already pretty connected.
 * 3) and on railways, we wouldn't be destroying any beauty because new railways would be built alongside existing roads, leaving any damage done to a minimum.
 * 4) To be honest this just seems to be a bit of unneeded Keynesian ideas (using government funds to spend, spend, spend to appease people) leaking into our transport policy and I feel that we need to scale back and ask ourselves what else could we use this money for:
 * 5) the almost 5 million for western sylvania could be used to build a proper railway to charleston from train village, we might even have cash left over.
 * 6) the money going into seven could be used to make simply a smaller road as I do understand that car travel from one island to the other would be useful, I do not think we need a highway of the size you are talking about though.
 * 7) these tolls that you plan to establish, I have to say I will stand firmly against, firstly because the fact is that they are just a fiddly tax that could easily be included in income tax, secondly because of the hinderence that it would cause to people commuting not only will it take money out of their wallets but also time out of their day when I'm sure they'd rather just have to pay a little more income tax. Just do that, a little more income tax, that's the way to do it, not installing time wasting and annoying tolls.

my take on it. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 19:04, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

We can just expand the railway from Clave Rock to Charleston, no need to build a completely new one. HORTON11 : •  19:27, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

But see its mutual that we need some transportation, Charleston is secluded! You say expand it, that costs money and planing, you just can minorly connect two cities so far away. I think it would be cheaper and more accesible for the people to have a highway but if we want high-speed rail which i'm for, we can do that. I'm for western Sylvanian development, and for helping those in train village. So okay we're going with high speed rail, is anyone actually for that or will that be shot down too, I have the feeling it will. On the issue of Seven, Its clear we need jobs across Lovia and  make it accesable for citizens there to have faster transportation, we can't build high speed rail there, so we need a highway. On the toll, I think it's hard to say when we have no taxes, the taxes he tried to pass had limited revenue with a 38% rate at the top and 28% at the bottom, that we need some source of revenue, to fund the government to fund any of these projects. This is responsible, and isn't a large 2 or 3 dollar toll, but .75 cents a day. Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:56, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think inserting another railway is fine, connecting to Train Village and then going through to Noble City. Also to just address Horton on why it should not be Clave Rock but Train Village: 1. it would be easier to build along the plains to Train Village than through the mountains to Clave Rock, 2. Clave Rock is about to 'green up', I hardly think a second train line would help that process 3. Going to Train Village allows us to also make another line to Noble City, which is useful for Trade (Noble City is our big trading city) and would help build jobs in Train Village.
 * On the matter of Seven, yes they should be connected but the amount of people on the islands does not require a motorway, also it's unlikely that it'll be used commercially as I'm sure ferries are the big thing there. Also jobs are not made just by building highways and railways, they facilitate it, but a bigger way to facilitate jobs is to come up with a proper business start-up and support model but that's a matter for another proposal which I hope to be heading. The point is, building this to simply facilitate jobs does not validate it as a practical policy that this government should adopt.
 * On tolls: you'd need to establish a law for those tolls too technically. So I'd prefer if we just put our efforts into getting a standard tax code set up and taking things from income. And on top of that I don't care how low it is, it's still an annoyance and unnecessary once we have a tax code set up.

That is my reply in full. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 21:30, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure people in Amish Kinley would even want a highway connection to their village. :P 77topaz (talk) 20:38, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

No, we don't. --John Amman 20:46, February 23, 2013 (UTC) Never fear, the CNP are on the side of Amish Kinley in ensuring their lifestyle (as well as the environment of Lovia) is as undisturbed by the development of lovia as possible. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 21:30, February 23, 2013 (UTC) Oy vey. Then scrap the Amish Kinley route. So, in all we should scrap everything, okay then. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:06, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

2013 Lovian Transportation Route
My last attempt in this. I can already see this will become wasted time anyway.

For starters I will hope to create the Western Sylvanian Railroad a high speed rail connnecting the bays and urban areas of Charleston to the economic hit areas of Train Village in hopes of new jobs their. 410 jobs will be made and will cost 5.1 million dollars. In the north of Train Village we see that it's railroad and highways will lead to highspeed rail and able for faster travel across the island. The cost of a ticket is 3.00 one way, 5.00 two rides. A monthly pass 140$.

I'm still hoping for a toll to be introduced on the most traveled highways, this is needed to fund projects elsewhere. Possibly on highway 1 or 2.

In seven I scrapped the Kinley route to lead the town into NK, but kept the eastern kinley route for faster travel now costing 1.29 million dollars and creating another 50 jobs. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:26, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Also, Sylvania Highway 1 exists, connecting Charleston to the rest of Sylvania. Even if a new highway was built, it would probably be an extension of Highway 7. A new railroad might be nice, but Kunarian has been opposed. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:28, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not opposed, not really anymore. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:39, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

On the railway: I'd support it if it went from Charleston to Train Village to Noble City. Also no high speed, that's kind of pointless and too expensive for Lovia only the most advanced and largest nations have them and no setting ticket prices yet, I'd prefer we get a plan set up before we do details.

No tolls, they're mainly annoying and we can fund our projects through more direct and less hassling tax, leave tolls for private roads not for public ones.

On Seven I can support a standard road connecting the settlements but a motorway at a stretch and depending on others opinions.

Finally all these job numbers seem rather ominous, I'd like to see your sources. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 21:39, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

All we'd need to do for the railway is to expand the Trans Sylvanian Railway. HORTON11 : •  21:49, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer to create a new railway, for reasons stated in the last section. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:53, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Why don't we all go on chat and talk about this (and maybe about SCP too)? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:55, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

I haven't gotten my opinion in here yet...but I think that if we are going to build trains, let's have them be fast. I'm thinking maglev bullet trains. For highways, if we build more, is anyone up for an autobahn? With autobahns and bullet trains, we could get places in no time. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 03:45, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

006. SLP-LP-CNP proposal for Transportation Bill 2013
Well after discussion and planing three major political party leader Hoffmann, Krosby and Villanova, we've came together and proposed this new plan. Here's a gallery of what these new projects will look like. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:58, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) On the issue of Sylvanian railways we've came up with this proposal. First we already have a Train Village to Noble City Railway, we'll repair some lines, but add another line next to it which will also go from NC-TV then to Charleston. This can create 525 short term jobs, and 80 long term jobs. This will cost 30.01 million dollars.
 * 2) Connecting roads from eastern kinley to the highway their and the bridge. This will help Seven's hard hit economy and create 90 short term jobs, and cost 1.1 million dollars.

NOTE: Hi, since this is being spearheaded by me and other colleagues, and this covers my ministry, I will have a question time on Transportation, this act, and Unemployment, among other things that relate to this act on Sunday, 24th, at noon - maybe 2 or 3. PLEASE COME!!! ASK QUESTIONS!!! BE ACTIVE AND INFORMED!!! I hope we can get this passed by the end of next week (March 1st-2nd). And the question time tomorrow will allow for scrutiny into any problems or question you have have and enlighten you so we can get this passed. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:07, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Coldn't you just continue the railroad that's alerady there, because it's more expensive to do it from scratch.MMunson (talk) 23:38, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

We need more transportation and it being faster, more accessible and for people and transport of goods. It will cost more but what it can do is allow one of them to be primarliy used for goods and free up the other one for people and leasure travel. There is also more jobs involved, that can allow more money into the economy and combat Train Village's unemployment problems. (I'm adding this to Question Time tomorrow) Also if you have any questions, they can be answered tomorrow for over three hours in Question time. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:50, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

We agreed that TV-Charleston would be an extension of NC-TV. . . —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:09, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

But it would have one more lane now right? Marcus/Michael Villanova 02:16, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah thats what I said, again all please come to QT tommorrow. Marcus/Michael Villanova 02:19, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Three things: --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:05, February 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * The costs will be more like 35 million.
 * The railroads on the maps should perhaps be drawn in a more steady line (there is nothing in the way of making them straighter except for the natural hills).
 * Other than that, sounds good :)
 * I agree with Oos on the costs point, we need to consider both the people we are hiring (their pay) and the amount of money we need to spend on bits and bobs to build the actual thing. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 20:21, February 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * True its good we're discussing this...I wouldn't know exactly how each labour would be compensated but it would be something like 15.00 an hour, more? Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:29, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Nice. I need to change my sig, it still says CNP   Happy65   Talk CNP   09:59, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

@Oos, are you sure. This is a regular railroad on a small island. I'd say even still, 29 million. The roads in kinley, how much. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:24, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

I'm guessing that my autobahn and maglev bullet trains are out of the question due to pricing? --Quarantine Zone (talk) 03:37, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

Well, you should take in account that - unlike America - Lovia does not have its own iron supplies. Everything must be imported. Therefore I take a look at the Dutch prices and a piece of railroad in Limburg, which was a single lane and about 30 km long, had a cost of about 20 million. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:47, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

But shipping to Lovia shouldn't be all that hard because it's close to California. There will be transaction fees though... --Quarantine Zone (talk) 21:37, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

@Maglev- that's right. High-speed trains are unreasonable and unnecessary, given the size of Lovia. HORTON11 : •  21:43, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

So what are we doing here what would be nessacary? Labour, Parts, Trains? How much would each be worth. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:38, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Reboot
I propose we get this approved and done, this upgrade to our railways is an essential improvement that will promote a stronger economy and will allow for more environmentally friendly transit by promoting train transport over car transport.

The construction of the "Headlands Cross State Line"
 * Costs - $70,500,000
 * Labour - 1 average worker @ ~$60,000 - ~500 workers - $30,000,000
 * Resources - 1km of rail @ ~$500,000 - ~81km of rail - $40,500,000
 * Benefits
 * The line will facilitate economic growth in both Charleston and Train Village
 * The line will facilitate internal trade as well as external trade, giving Lovia a more fluid economy
 * The line will be useful also in providing quick transport of supplies and services in cases of emergency
 * The line will also be useful in lessening car traffic and will provide safer and cleaner train transport for the masses

I suggest we move this to the second chamber as soon as humanly possible after critique. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 13:12, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Here! But what about costs afterwards, meaning long term jobs as in train workers, conductors and line repairment, etc. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:15, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

I'm actually against this one for 2 reasons. 1) As Marcus just said, you're over budget due to paying for maintenance, and they may run into problems and require extra money, or the workers could demand more pay, etc. 2) I think that some of your money should be put towards other things as well like fixing roads or fixing rundown railroads. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 01:45, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

Uhhh don't miss-quote me, i proposed this and want it. I am 100% for this and think its definitley needed for lovia's well being. Marcus/Michael Villanova 02:48, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

I think this should not be done via Congress. It is an state internal affair, which should be discussed between the Minister of Transportation, Governor of Sylvania, and other locally involved. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:40, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

007. Update NSO
I propose to update the NSO. If there are no objections, I will make a proposal. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:54, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Revised already this year or late last year.  Happy65   Talk CNP   15:56, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Only East Hills needs to be a town. It is but not on that page of the NSO. Wabba The I (talk) 16:03, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:10, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

@Happy: you don't make sense right now. You just updated the page on Plains so it would be a town. In the NSO, it is still a hamlet... Hamlets are now the places in the rural districts with less than 500 inhabitants. Even Beaverwick is a village now. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:51, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Let me get this straight: the Settlement Act was updated, but the NSO wasn't? :P 77topaz (talk) 08:08, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Well, nothing was updated. Only the federal law. And that was exactly the reason I don't support unnecessary changes which affect a lot of pages: nobody's gonna update them... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:15, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Well, you're the PM and admin. :P Anyway, in that case, this should have been done already, but since it hasn't yet, it should be done soon, so. 77topaz (talk) 08:17, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

I think it's the responsibility of the proposer to look after it :P It should be done indeed. However, I need list of hamlets (small populated places within the districts. So far, only Oceana and Sylvania have lists that I am aware of). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:18, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

The censuses could be useful. 77topaz (talk) 08:25, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

How? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:57, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

008. - Constitutional Change - Voting Rights
Hi fellow congresspersons, I've been trying to pass economic changes with the train connecting train village to Charleston and new roads in seven but I hope all congressmen in their own right will please consider that and pass it. But I move to maybe a technicality and important right that each citizen should have, this should be added to the elections and formation of government section of the constitution.

Now this law an certain sections obviously do not apply to actual users but since were trying to be real nation here:
 * 1) Any Lovian citizen aged 18 or older may exercise their right to vote in an election.
 * 2) The citizen must file registration for voting with the State Government to be allowed to vote.
 * 3) Registration must be filed at least two weeks before an election is held.
 * 4) A state may set the voting age limit for statewide elections to either the age of 16, 17, or 18, according to the preference of the state.
 * 5) No citizen may be barred from voting on grounds of their gender, sexual orientation, race, personal beliefs, or religious background.
 * 6) Infringement of voting rights is a felony, punishable by a minimum of a 10,000 dollar fine.
 * 7) The Supreme Court may prescribe a greater punishment depending on the severity of the crime.
 * 8) The voting rights of citizens can be removed if they are deemed unfit by way of a Supreme Court order.
 * 9) Electioneering is allowed, but only 30 meters or more away from the location where a voter casts a ballot.
 * 10) Breaking this law once leads to a 1000 dollar fine. Breaking it more than once leads to a minimum prison sentence of three days and a 3000 dollar fine.
 * 11) The Supreme Court may prescribe a greater punishment depending on the severity of the crime.

Please give some feedback, what should be added, deleted, changed (Idk about the last "electioneering" thing, although i think it's needed for a safe environment for campaigning) Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:28, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

I think 16 and above for the voting age, and 100 feet away from the voting center. The fine should be higher, and should be MUCH higher for second offenses. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:34, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

First Point - usually conservative dont want to extend the franchise to 16 so I compromised to 17. But I'll move it to 16 :P. 100 feet away, second offense fine being 1k. Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:32, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

Two things: 16 should be 18 and in Lovia, we use the metric system, no feet, we want meters. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:15, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed with Oos, it should be 18.  Happy65   Talk CNP   07:11, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

@liberals - I knew the franchise being extended would be a problem. I said 17 as a compromise, personally i would want 16, conservatives 18. So lets compromise to 17. Changed to 30 meters which is 98.42 feet, in meters its a round even number. Anymore suggestions? I'm moving this to the second chamber by saturday! Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:03, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Round 750 to 1000 and increase 1750 to 5000. Also, I think the voting age should be 16 (there are many 20-year-olds not ready for voting and many 16-year-olds who are), but I won't block the proposal on it. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:04, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

@On fines - Ill increase them slightly. On the issue of voting age, it's a huge argument across the World and many countries. And i'd like maybe for people to actually voice an opinion on this before it goes to the second chamber. I support votes at 16, while conservatives say 18. I'll compromise and say 17, are conservatives for that. In reality (not to toot my horn) but as I proposed it, and we'd approve it it'd be a huge step forward in history for youth rights, right? Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:11, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

I'm going with raising it to 24. That would work fairly well. Most people are ready by then. (Not really, that would never get passed, but if it could that would be pretty awesome.) I think that 17 is better than no voting age, so I'll vote pro if it goes to second chamber. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 02:43, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps we need one more fix: there should be a line in place that people can be excluded from voting by court order (f.e. severe prisonership, mentally not fit etc.) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:09, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Can I just say that we need an age at least and I think that 18 is the best way to go to begin with. Then those who think it should be higher/lower can attempt to change it. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 13:45, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:50, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

I can't even with those who think it should even be higher than 18, just because you don't want to take part in a democracy or you think you're too stupid to vote doesn't mean a excited citizen wanting to excercise his/her right to vote shouldn't. I'm thinking that 17 is where it should be kept there's some poor poor judgement on your part, to those who think those who are young don't have the tools, or thought process to be able to vote. I know i'll look forward to casting (IRL) my first ballot, I know some of you felt the same way. Some 16 and 17 are more prepared than any 18 year old, and some 18 year old than 17 and 16. But in the same right we don't force everyone to vote, we shouldn't deny a more mature group of people the same right of "too vote, or not to vote". I can already hear the slippery slope arguments of "Why not allow a 15 year old, or  4 year old" but we all know first off that a 4 year old can't make that situation but in all honesty maybe a 15 year old can but we do have to have a standard of a mature young adult age like 16 or 17 in which our citizens can join the franchise and become an active citizen. Again i'll push for votes at 17. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:38, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Marcus, I don't doubt that there are many people who are younger than 18 that are ready to vote, it's that I think that there are a lot of people who aren't ready to vote but will vote anyway. It's better to wait until nearly everyone is mature enough to vote and then allow them than to have a whole ton of votes from people who aren't ready. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 22:31, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

But what is mature? Your mature enough to enlist in the army, marry and go off to college or get a job, be taxed on that money but not be able to say how you would like that money to be taxed and where for it to go. Again like I said, votes at 17! Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:37, March 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * This argument is entirely true and could work in a American sense, but here in Lovia we have a diffrent story. Almost all of our entire youth will go to college, and most likely with government assistance, almost none of them will get out of High School and enter Lovia's deadly, I mean DEADLY military. Leave it at 18. -Sunkist- (talk) 23:19, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * I love the blantant disregard of the facts put foward and instead saying that we are a poor, crumbling nation who relies on a non-existant military, which is very interesting. Most americans also come out with debt since it's such a capitalistic nation so again I don't know where that point went. Again i'm looking at these points from a conservative point of view on this issue and none of them pass the smell test. Until someone has a credible argument against this, I say votes at 17! Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:30, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Who said we are a poor, crumbling nation who relies on a non-existant army? Bantant disregard of facts? Is it not true that most of the Lovian youth goes to college after High School?  -Sunkist- (talk) 02:14, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

This isn't something to block the law on. . . I prefer a lower age, but 18 is fine. 17 is also a prime number, which makes it look awkward when used for age limits. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:59, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

18 is better. Like I said up the page.  Happy65   Talk CNP   07:17, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

I'd say there's more support for 18. Taking our regulations on tobacco and alcohol in mind, I would not add yet another age. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:40, March 13, 2013 (UTC) :Yes it's a good idea to match all our points of maturity together. Also on Marcuses points:
 * Army - Lovia doesn't have one, although the federal police could be considered your equivalent in this argument. In the federal police you are a cadet and cannot become a corporal (front line police) until you are 21 at least.
 * Marry - only at 18 are you able to marry without needing your parents permission.
 * Colledge - to be honest this isn't really a good argument, colledge is part of education and children are educated from a very yound age so being in education isn't really a good argument for me.
 * Job - a valid point that however it's not really too relative considering you can actually be working way before the legal age, and can get 'paid' in a way, I prefer the argument of having to pay taxes for working at that job.
 * Tax - we haven't got taxes and we can put them in to be taxed at 18, therefore the age of 18 is truly the age of maturity in lovia, then they are taxed at 18 for their earnings and can decide where those taxes go with their vote.
 * Votes at 16 or 17 don't work as well in a Lovia considering the above situation I've just described. I suggest that we go with 18 being the age of maturity in lovia and keep this consistent in any future laws we decide to pass. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 10:00, March 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't see age as the issue, it's whether or not the voter is informed. I think we should make the voting age 17, and we could introduce a Lovian politics course (or something like that) in high school, to teach students on the system and help them make informed voting choices. (unsigned)


 * @sunskit - you were the one who put forward this sort of militaristic Lovia and a sort of sad nation, we are not. @kun -  We are progressive we can work in that direction, you're right we dont have taxes but, the master of the tax law, I'd say we need laws about taxing and education to allow young adults who want to leave and work at 16 should, but then denying these young adults that right is wrong and this must be a first step in that direction for correcting that wrong. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:08, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * "I mean DEADLY military." Sorry, I didn't know North-easterners didn't comprehend sarcasm. My dearest apologies. -Sunkist- (talk) 23:55, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * There's no need to insult such a large group of people over something this small. :P 77topaz (talk) 00:08, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * You get use to the infantile attacks, when someone can't honestly defend there position correctly. And I see no humor in war or "DEADLY" military, so excuse me if somehow midwesterners, which I doubt, find that hilarious. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:16, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Its simply sarcasm to state the matter your 'enlist into the army' has no weight in this conversation due to the fact that Lovia's Army is HIGHLY unlikely to go to war due to our neturality status. Are you trying to say that I find humor in entering a accutally deadly military or war, if so, I'd demand an apology on your behalf due to false accusations. In the United States, men entering at the age of 17 should be able to vote, due to the fact that the US Military is dangerous and deadly, while in Lovia the arguement does not hold up. -Sunkist- (talk) 19:38, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * We don't even have an actual military which is so amazing that you don't even know basic things about lovia. NO YOU DO, You Said "Dealy War" was a sarcasam and then insuled an entire fucking part of America. You've proven your a horrible statesmen and have no actual useful comments to make. Saying that a fictional army, is deadly and that we are a bad nation in which most students will have debts, like every other student in the world, or die in a military which appeared to be a joke, and had sarcasam behind it. Next time, come to the chamber with sometime constructive like kunarian. Even if he doesn't agree with me, which is like 90% of the time, he doesn't just go make something up but actually replies with something backed up with some fact. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:22, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * "We don't even have an actual military.." YES I KNOW, thats the reason WHY I SAID "...almost none of them will get out of High School and enter Lovia's deadly, I mean DEADLY military." Becuase you said for one of your reason of maturity that "Your mature to enlist in the army...". I'm not stupid, I know that we only maintain the FCSB, the LSS and the Federal Police. I never even mention the words "...Deadly War..." together in my statement, I did say "..enters Lovias Deadly, I mean DEADLY military." Which you know, is NOT insulting due to the fact its not deadly nor is it even a real organisation, THATS WERE THE SARCASM COMES FROM. You have done libel to me in this Chamber, and I do demand an apology.
 * WHEN I SAID "This argument is entirely true and could work in a American sense" becuase America does have a deadly army, and If I said diffrently, I would insult my cousin, my father my fathers father and his father.
 * -Sunkist- (talk) 00:34, March 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Beacause you join the military, die but never go into a war? The Original statement said was about a deadly military, but what would that military do to make it die. Thats why the orginial statement made zero sense. But then why say it at all you obviously find something either a joke, or need for humor in that its the politics of it or the war side. I won't even apologize for a matter not even needed, with unconstructive comments and that creates side arguments insulting an entire side of a country because of the lack of seriousness. But again in a case were we debate voting age and age of adulthood but none seen. Yes we all have someone that has fought in the military, my grandfather in WWII, but you bringing that up is not even apart of the argument.  Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:49, March 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * You must be joking me. Can some one please help me to help Mr. Villanova understand. Calling the Lovian military deadly, is like saying "The American south is extremely liberal and supports same-sex marriage" Its not true, its sarcasm, not to be a joke but to make an ".. usually conveyed through  irony  or  understatement ." It relates to the age of adulthood, becuase you brought up the voting age in Lovia with military service, WHEN THERE IS NO MILITARY IN LOVIA. -Sunkist- (talk) 01:02, March 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * There's the Special Forces. And, most of the world, including nearby countries like the USA, do have enlistment ages for militaries. 77topaz (talk) 01:44, March 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * The Special Forces are no longer active in Lovia, I believe Lukas dismantled them. -Sunkist- (talk) 01:51, March 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * You would be correct sir. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 09:42, March 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * But prehaps there is a compromise in this. I'll say it doesn't make you more qualified to vote in state elections than federal but what if we did 17 for state elections, and 18 for federal. Everyone gets something Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:21, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * What about States can set their own voting age limits for the state elections? not only would that be more interesting but then you could go 16 completely if you were governor of somewhere, stay at 18 or go to 24 if you felt that upwards was the way to go. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:11, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * As a states right advocate I like that :) I added in states may lower the age to 17 or 16 for statewide elections, but not raise it above 18. I'm moving this to the second chamber Saturday again :D Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:13, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * I added Citizens can be excluded from voting rights if deemed unfit under Supreme Court order. We don't want psychos voting. Is the English good? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:20, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not think it is, quite. :P 77topaz (talk) 07:37, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Could you fix it? :P I want to say: Burgers kunnen uitgezonderd worden van stemrecht indien ongeschikt verklaard middels een Hooggerechtshofuitspraak. :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:43, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think a more grammatically correct way would be The voting rights of citizens can be removed if they are deemed unfit by (way of) a Supreme Court order. 77topaz (talk) 08:05, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I added it :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:09, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * We are going to allow Supreme Judges to take peoples voting rights away? Lets not do that, that could have some serious political implications on the system if a supreme judge decided to revoke all of CCPL's or Labour's Congressmen from voting. -Sunkist- (talk) 19:42, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I hope you realise this is about voting for elections, not voting in Congress? And such an order would not be able to be made just at whim. 77topaz (talk) 20:49, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Constitution's are somtimes made ambigious, like that of the US Constitution and can be used as such to justify peoples actions. As a Justice, I COULD take into account that a Congressmen is a voting citizen, and 'voting rights' could be say such as both electorial and congressional, and could remove BOTH. Never does the article say its just for the cause for election rights, but simply 'voting rights' which in the Second Chamber, you 'vote' to enact laws, thus being part of your 'voting rights' -Sunkist- (talk) 00:40, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

What section of the Constitution will this be added to? Article 2, Article 8, or another? If Article 2, Article 8 will need to be amended from "any citizen" to "any citizen eligible for voting". —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:21, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

In the heeading it said in the last part of it's act. So is there general support of this (75%) so? :D Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:22, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I saw that, and changed it to "Not sure if Article 8 is the best section for this. I propose Article 2. If we put it in Article 2, Article 8 will need to be amended from "any citizen" to "any citizen eligible for voting," but you undid that for some reason. So please ignore that respond to the statement that I posted:

Not sure if Article 8 is the best section for this. I propose Article 2. If we put it in Article 2, Article 8 will need to be amended from "any citizen" to "any citizen eligible for voting." —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:43, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Wait wut happened xD Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:08, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how the military thing was relevant at all even in a sarcastic sense... We don't have a military. Anyway, my argument for older than 17 is that the percentage of 17 year olds who are ready to vote is lower than the percentage of 21 or 24 year olds who are ready to vote. After the age of 24 though, the percentage of people ready to vote barely goes up at all if any. This is because 24 is the high end of the average age that people's minds mature, so virtually everyone is able to make as rational decisions as they're going to be for the rest of their lives at that point. That is why I want higher than 17, but like I said, I'd vote pro anyway. 17 is better than no age limit. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 01:48, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

I see your point, but I would like to know if anyone else would agree. I don't want to tyranny of the majority here and see though, if anyone else agrees. Personally, as you know I don't. So what does everyone else think? Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:37, March 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think 18 would be the best compromise. Most of us agree with 18: you prefer 16, QZ prefers 24. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:31, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Whatever the age is, I think that marriage, voting rights, age of consent, age at which you can get a drivers license should be set as the same Frijoles333 (talk) 12:37, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

009. State Laws
I want to bring back the state laws. But: before I'm gonna waste a lot of time, I want to know whether we can get a 66%+ majority for this. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:08, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

You always have known I'm a VERY strong advocate of devolution and stronger states! All six votes would be in support of State Laws, Governors and Councils!!! Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:00, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

What would the laws say? I'm pro devolution, but in general I want less government usually...--Quarantine Zone (talk) 17:54, March 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well devolution does not equal less government, it does not also equal more government. What it does mean is that people get a stronger decision on how big the government governing them should be, because while they have just the same influence over the central government as before, their vote for the devolved government is worth much more and can decide much more greatly on the path they wish to take.
 * Although as I've found, devolution does simplify things, the most devolved levels of government are normally the most efficient and so in a way voting for devolution does reduce government to a degree as centralised jobs are transformed into devolved jobs and due to better efficiency normally less jobs are needed for the same task. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:36, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah In lovia though its very weird, it proves the horseshoe theory of political science. Its supported by Socialists and Conservatives yet in the middle no support.... Basically it would take some power away from the greatly powerful centralized government and give them to governor's to enact laws through "State Law Books" and then would give power to "State Councils" to change and amend these laws. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:27, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

But you see quarantine, more government isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you take the American mentality of a necessary evil, yes small govenrment seems good. But with an open European mentality we can balance out a larger government to better serve people's needs. And i'd support the reintroduction of state laws, cause we should allow a greater degree of autonomy to states. HORTON11 : •  19:25, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Horton on the issue of the scope of government and what new state laws could allow. It could allow more more productive and adpative laws to the needs of that state's citizens. I would like to see Governors, State Laws, and State Councils all having an equal say and working to have power at the state level and promoting growth and social change at a more accessible, smaller level. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:03, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

I fully support such a move. State laws are vital and important especially when our states are so diverse. Having the same exact laws for Seven as for Sylvania makes no sense and trying to pass a Seven based law through government makes no sense either as MotCs who were voted for by people not from seven will vote on it. We need to have a flexible government in such a modern day and age. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 21:36, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

I'm glad too see the support for this, call me crazy but I think I remember there was a possible coalition about this. I don't actually remember if that ever worked out :P. I fully agree with reienstatement of the State Laws if: We Put in elections for state councils to replace elections for Governors and States having "mini-congresses" with the Governor being from the majority party. Impowering democracy as well as devolution. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:30, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

The reason I'm against big government is that I see no need for it really. I think that people need to rely on themselves and their community more than the government, so I feel that some parts of the government are unnecessary and that they simply cost money that could be more well spent. Anyway, I'll vote pro probably. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 00:31, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

Any support here still? Lets not have this left alone and forgotten! Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:46, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

The balance: 28% pro, 34% probably pro. We still need 5%! :P Anyway, next week I've got more time, so then I might start writing. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:15, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

To the Speakers corner maybe? --Quarantine Zone (talk) 21:30, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Its not something much to be swayed. But I think once they see the senior politicans like Oos, Hoffman, Krosby and I (from 4 different right-left specturms) itll get approved. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:44, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Time is against devolution though. I think Punarbhava is the farthest left on here, and I'm the farthest right. Either way, Time and Oos are fairly close on the right-left scale. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 01:47, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yep. I think Time and me are pretty much the same when it comes to the economical stand. In practically all other aspects, we are opposites :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:03, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you're opposites on the Green to non-green scale. Idk if anyone on here is opposites on that scale. There are very few truly non-green people, and I don't think we have any on here, and we have some pretty green people. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 12:25, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yes but I want to have support for this xD @Oos - Anyway to get this proposed? Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:14, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

@QZ: Non-greens are rare in Lovia, maybe because it makes no sense to be anti-green :P @Marcus: Sure, I'll write a proposal this week. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:39, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

First proposal
. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:26, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Any remarks? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:33, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

My Take:


 * I'm not really for or against state courts, so okay Pro for that. But still very good, love the devolution.
 * State Law: So Pro for this! You say motions are proposed and voted in the same chamber? So it wouldn't be like this system, would be a bit weird, no?
 * I don't get article 6.7 "A motion that is not intended to be enshrined in the State Law, but that does need State Council approval, is proposed and voted in the same way.", Please clarify.
 * I dont get how your are elected into the state council it's a bit vauge. Why don't we just do it in the parliamentary way we do it in congress, the council, or majority party appointing a Governor and Deputy Governor.
 * Instead of 3 votes per state?
 * Is there a outline of the powers of the state council?
 * Can these state councils create "State Ministries" to oversee statewide things (Ex in Oceana "Minority Affairs", in Clymene "Healthcare") Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:54, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

This just seems to make things more comlex. We don't have enough people or time for active state councils or ministries. HORTON11 : •  13:58, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

No the point is, when you have two or three people running for a state each with an invested interest, and they recieve votes they deserve even a minor share of the responsibility. I mean technically under the plan we have know a governor with a stroke of the pen can just do whatever within limit. Now their will be opposition in some form, and debate and votes on bills proposed by other members with care of the state or the governor. I just think this bill needs some tweaks, but in the thought of it, it's very good. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:09, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

I just think it would be more efficient with people interested in contributing to a state politically should work directly with the governor. HORTON11 : •  14:15, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

But for a party that stands near the liberal spectrum, it's very undemocratic to say "You did okay but no say in the process, Bye bye!!!", your version would be hope the governor actually listens to citizens and thinks that they would change the process, but through actual democracy is how it should be changed, and that is what is being proposed. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:18, March 26, 2013 (UTC),

Ideally that is what should be going on, but 1.We don't have enough users to have active councils in all states, 2. If we can barely get a good amount of users to vote in congress, I don't think involvement in these councils would amount to the same. 3. It makes for a bunch of unnecessary bureaucracy that can be put aside in favor of a smaller and more direct thing with the governor. HORTON11 : •  14:31, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Reply @Marcus:
 * State Law: there is no direct need for two separate chambers, as in most cases, the State Council will exist of two or three users only.
 * 6.7: this is f.e. a vote whether a railroad is to be constructed, or renaming a street. It should not be in the State Law, but it still needs a vote.
 * @how you are elected: It is exactly that way.
 * @3 votes: Mmm... Didn't really think about that. Shall we simply keep one vote per state then?
 * @powers: see article 5
 * @ministries: see article 5.1.7

Reply @Horton: One vote or at the most two. True, I mean In my personal opinion i would like users to run in two states so sectionalism isn't created and more interest in other state's matters. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:47, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * We need State Councils if we want to reenact the State Laws. Just one person deciding on all of the state law is very undemocractic. If you have three people running in one state, you would already have a way more democratic system. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:41, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, we could add that a user may run in two different states, but may only hold one (Deputy) Governor position. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:52, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * We would have to see if others are interested in this. If this were to happen, I'd think most people would want to be in Sylvania, but much less in Seven or Kings. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:02, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, so far, we have managed to keep at least two candidates per state (with Seven as minor obstacle). That's all we need, for the rest the system will be fairly equal, except for that probably more will get done. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:09, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well I think serving in two states would solve that. Maybe I would run in Seven, or you Oos. But we have primary state concerns like Clymene or Oceana so we choose those above helping those other also important states. Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:11, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed, enabling running in two states would already make the problem disappear. F.e. Marcus could run in Seven to represent the non-Christians, and I culd run in Kings to represent the non-atheists :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:16, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * True! Plus I think if we only ran in one state you'd see each party only in one or two states, which wouldn't correctly represent the people of Lovia. Would you know change your act to two votes and two states? Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:27, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure whether two votes would be a good idea. Keep it either at one or make it an odd number :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:28, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * What about the two states xD that seems rather important? Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:31, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, one vote per state, right? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:10, March 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm feeling like three votes per state would be better :P In Communist Lovia: Everybody wins!!! Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:34, March 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Three votes per state? :P Well, if it's possible to give more than one vote to a single candidate, I'm not against it :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:21, March 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * omg xD haha, did you add those new changes though? I'd really like to see this passed! Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:39, March 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * I will, however, on second look, I think it is not clear what exactly the State Laws are meant for, so I'll first dive into that. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:01, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it jsut be like a federal law, but at a state level? I would love to see ths reform past so states can actually be something more than a place in Lovia. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:28, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

(reset) I think we should just have one vote due to the lack of people who would vote and simplicity. Although if Seven had one centrist on the council we would have a pretty accurate representation. How would state courts be elected? --Quarantine Zone (talk) 05:04, April 4, 2013 (UTC)

I think this has taken a bit wrong, we need a strong drive for it. I'm against state courts for the reason you've said. I think it's unessacary government, we already have one (barley used) court which is now more democratic and effective. So I think with some minor tweaks the idea of a parliamentary state council for each state would bee fine. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:29, April 4, 2013 (UTC)

I'm worried that state councils will become inactive very quickly, and then the governor won't be able to do anything at all. That's basically what I meant, when I said earlier that a state reform would probably just create bureaucracy. --Semyon 21:47, April 4, 2013 (UTC)

I get that notion but in all honesty, with respect to seven (which i'd like to get involved) you are the state's primary citizen. So in that case you'd control at most times 50%+ seats and able to pass most to all bills. What the councils, IRL and wikian function is that in no country in the world, would a region as defined as a state be controled by One person with all that oversight and power. They're would have to be some legislative authority and state cabinets there. I think on that note the need for democracy and devolution outwieghs the still relevent argument that this is a form of bureacracy, which I do just not see though. Back to the point on inactivity I think we'd need some requirement but to allow some more senior and active users to be active in 2 state councils, while new users, maybe not as active to be in 1. That way activity is up in more areas and any harm done by inactivity is kept disproportionate to the activity raised by those more senior and even new active users. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:02, April 4, 2013 (UTC)

So who is for this! Head over to the Second Chamber and vote Pro! For a new change to Lovia and a new way to handle politics! Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:10, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Is there something that limits the state councils' powers so things akin to Lovianization do not happen again? 77topaz (talk) 19:16, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Because basically we're taking the small powers of governor and transfering them to a democratic council. Basically under the old system it was one man making all the decisions. Were just making sure there is a level of auntomony in Lovia. Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:20, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

By "auntomony", do you mean "autonomy" or something else? :P 77topaz (talk) 19:59, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but hopefully you still vote pro for this new system :D Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:55, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

@77topaz: Yes, supreme court and Congress can always still interfere with state politics. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:28, April 7, 2013 (UTC)

010. Honorary Citizenship
I don't even mean this to be a political ploy, or for anyone to overthink this, but as a real life and figurative motion of accomplishment and to appricate his life in such an amazing way, I want to purpose the following to be added to the Citizen registry. He is in his dying stages of his amazing life and would like for this Congress and Federal body to recognize this. Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:13, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Beacuse of his life long struggle for equality, by promotion understanding between those deemed different, by being a beacon of excellence as a human being, and progressing civil rights foward when most needed, Lovia bestows Honary Citizenship to the Former President of South Africa Nelson Mandela.


 * Yeah, Mandela is a great leader and we should do this. We could also consider awarding honorary citizenship to other figures as well as from other wikinations. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:22, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I think the idea of honorary citizenship is a good one, and Mandela would be a great first person to give it to Frijoles333 (talk) 21:48, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah i'm not keeping this within the first chamber for long id like it to pass quickly to show our support. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:11, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Great! As Horton said we could also bestow this honour on other people as well, perhaps other people who have fought for equality or civil rights Frijoles333 (talk) 12:34, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

Not sure about Honorary Citizenship, but we should definitely bestow him some sort of honour (medal or something) that is unique instead of citizenship, which I think is an odd honour. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:07, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

Well we only have like the OWP and some recognition from Blackburn University but neither of those would be very valuable. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:24, March 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * We could do like a joint Lovian-Brunanter awarding. We could give him our White Pine and the Order of the Dragon. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:56, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

I've got nothing against Mendela, but he ain't got nothing to do with Lovia. Why would he even need citizen rights? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:12, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

Symbol of our graditude towards him for his life long work. Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:26, March 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * There are other and better ways to do this than to bestow citizenship. Which in many ways is quite empty considering how easy it is to become one. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:00, March 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * An honorary citizenship is geberally something very special and rare, and of great honor. In the US only 7 people have been awarded it and 5 in Canada. This represents much more than just citizenship, it's including the person into our society for what he or she have achieved in their lifetime. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:05, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think this is a good idea. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:57, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

011. Head of State Reform
Alright, as it looks now, we've got a relatively large group of citizens unhappy with our current Head of State. We got three options basically: So, what is the general feeling here :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:31, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep the situation as it is (King Dimitri I)
 * Allow another dynasty to take over the throne (most likely King Ygo August I)
 * We become a republic (President Ilava)
 * Nothing personal, but option 2 is a bit stupid. :P We're not in the middle ages è. I'm fine with either 1 or 3, but think there should be separate elections for President. --Semyon 18:37, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * But I want to become Heretow :'( --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:55, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

For me 1 and 3 are the best options. How about a referendum for the unhappy citizens Frijoles333 (talk) 18:58, May 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * The second option, of course, is fine too. It is simply a matter of opinion for Semyon to dislike it. As is his right as a citizen of Lovia. But his opinion that option two is "stupid" does not make it's stupidity an established fact. Doesn't work that way. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 19:02, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter what my opinion is, it's still stupidity. :P No modern monarchy has to deal with the threat of being deposed by a private citizen. Imagine the scene playing out in London or Amsterdam. It's just absurd... --Semyon 20:06, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Amsterdam and London have more Police Officers then in whole of Lovia, probably. Lovia's a pretty tiny nation. A lot of people tend to forget that. As for my plot? It was doomed to fail from the beginning. Which is why I am practically surrendering at this point, and will leave the rest to the politicians. How's that for some realism? The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 20:10, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not practically surrendering to demand a pardon and Dimitri to step down as conditions. I still don't see any realism, sorry. --Semyon 20:17, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * He can, of course, decline. Arrest me. Put me on trial. But until he either accepts, or declines, hostilities have ceazed. The only thing that has changed, now, is that the Palace has no door, it is empty and surrounded by police officers, the King is housed in another location and the matter of a Monarchy vs a Republic has come to the politicians' attention. And I will likely end up being tried for high treason. I have no illusions about Kunarian accepting my terms. None whatsoever. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 20:26, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

LONG LIVE HERETOW OOS! Pierlot McCrooke 19:34, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

Option 1 for stability. We have an austere king who does not spend lavishly and lives (relatively) modestly in a small palace, with the rest of the royal family having no special status. I like it the current way. I do support amnesty for the Donias, though. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:21, May 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * I will not live lavishly anymore and adapt to a different standard of living when called upon by the people to be their King. If the majority, however, does not wish to see me on the throne, then I will not be on it and my family will continue to live in Castle Donia high up in the Emerald Mountains. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 21:24, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Referendum choices: The existing monarchy (if chosen: nothing changes)
 * A new monarchy (if chosen: we hold the election? or appoint a new monarchy from congress)
 * A republic (if chosen: can elected a president, make the Prime Minister both roles like south africa, and define it's powers) Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:51, May 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * I think you're a tad controversial. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:28, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

012. Referendum Act
Due to the controversy and (silent) revolt against the Monarchy I propose the following:

To add an "Approved Referendums" book inside the Federal Law and the following referendum Please change any spelling errors, etc. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:10, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) All registered citizens, age 18 and over, may vote in the following referendum:
 * 2) The referendum will take place to be semi-binding to what the citizens of Lovia would prefer as their head of state.
 * 3) Each eligible citizen will have three choices to vote for:
 * 4) To keep the current Noble family in the power of the throne.
 * 5) To have another family, or dynasty, to become the royal family, in which if chosen, another referendum will be held to chose that family.
 * 6) To remove all form of Monarchy from the Lovian state and allow Congress to write laws in the Constitution and create a new head of state.
 * 7) Each citizen will have one vote, and will have the choice of the three options or the choice to not vote at all.
 * 8) The choice that receives 50% of the vote or more will be the option to be acted upon by Congress and the Federal Government, making appropriate changes.
 * 9) If no choice is able to receive 50% of the vote after the first voting time, the two most popular choices will be asked again at a later date to officially settle the issue.
 * 10) The first round of voting will take place in Forum:Referendum from May 20th and closing on May 30th.
 * 11) If a second round of voting is needed, it too will take place in Forum:Referendum from June 3rd to June 13th.
 * 12) (for non-wikian purposes/real life purposes) Voter turnout, the total amount of correctly casted ballots, must be at least 30% of the total franchise.
 * 13) The question on the referendum ballot will be asked as follows:
 * 14) What would you prefer to be the official Head of State of Lovia?
 * 15) The current royal family (Noble) to stay as the Monarchy
 * 16) Another bloodline (to be determined through a referendum later) to become the Monarchy of Lovia
 * 17) To remove all forms of Monarchy in Lovia and allow Congress to create a new Head of State.

Shouldn't be in this form, but not a bad idea. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:01, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

Why are 011 and 012 separate, anyway? They're basically about the same thing. 77topaz (talk) 23:15, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

Why not, The form doesn't matter. Just if it's popular and accpetable, I'll move it to the second chamber soon. --Marcus unsigned

It does matter, it has to be a proper proposal. This isn't really a law, so it should be in a different form. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:19, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, we shouldn't place specific referendums in our law, but the idea is good. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:20, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

Uncle OWTB's version
To add an "Referendum Act" inside the Federal Law:
 * 1) All registered citizens, age 18 and over, may vote in a nation-wide referendum.
 * 2) The referendum taking place is to be semi-binding to what the citizens of Lovia and will contain at least two options.
 * 3) The choice that receives 50% of the vote or more will be the option to be acted upon by Congress and the Federal Government, making appropriate changes.
 * 4) For a referendum to become semi-binding, an option should receive at least 50% of the votes.
 * 5) If no option is able to receive 50% of the vote after the first voting time, the least popular option will be dropped at a later date to officially settle the issue. This may occur repeatedly until an option has reached the 50% barrier.
 * 6) The first round of voting will take place in Forum:Referendum and has a legal duration of at least one week, and two weeks at most.
 * 7) If a second round of voting is needed, it too will take place in Forum:Referendum and has a legal duration of at least one week, and two weeks at most.
 * 8) Voter turnout, the total amount of correctly casted ballots, must be at least 30% of the total franchise.
 * 9) A referendum can only be issued by the Lovian Congress, following a normal majority in favor.
 * 10) All referndums passed by congress will be added to a list of "Approved referendums" and the results to also be recorded.

Separetely, we will hold another vote in the 2nd Chamber (not to be implemented in our laws): --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:32, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Monarchy Reform Referendum 2013:
 * 2) The referendum will be held in line with the Referendum Act.
 * 3) Each eligible citizen will have three choices to vote for:
 * 4) To keep the current Noble family in the power of the throne.
 * 5) To have another family, or dynasty, to become the royal family, in which if chosen, another referendum will be held to chose that family.
 * 6) To remove all form of Monarchy from the Lovian state and allow Congress to write laws in the Constitution and create a new head of state.
 * 7) Each citizen will have one vote, and will have the choice of the three options or the choice not to vote at all.
 * 8) The first round of voting will take place in Forum:Referendum from May 20th and closing on May 30th.
 * 9) If a second round of voting is needed, it too will take place in Forum:Referendum from June 3rd to June 13th.
 * 10) The question on the referendum ballot will be asked as follows:
 * 11) What would you prefer to be the official Head of State of Lovia?
 * 12) The current royal family (Noble) to stay as the Monarchy
 * 13) Another bloodline (to be determined through a referendum later) to become the Monarchy of Lovia
 * 14) To remove all forms of Monarchy in Lovia and allow Congress to create a new Head of State.

The law still seems specific with "would prefer as their head of state" in 2. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 10:55, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Woop. Didn't spot that. Is it better this way? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:02, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should define semi-binding? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:38, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * A referendum must be binding, semi-binding would mean it is just a poll for the peoples opinion. Giving it no point. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:54, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah but at least we'd have a clear official result of what the people wanted. Is anyone really against this, leggo!!! Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:58, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll define semi-binding later today. Making it directly binding is rather.. dangerous :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 05:14, May 3, 2013 (UTC)

Does anyone else have comments on this? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:21, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

C'mon just move it, we need something passed and this is it. A simple 50% majority needed. Marcus/Michael Villanova 09:56, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

It should be posted in about 12 hours, I think. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 10:54, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Oos please move this! Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:41, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * The Act has been moved. The separate vote for the Monarchy Referendum will follow after the Act has been accepted. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:46, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

013. Creation of The National Reserve
Alright, lately I've become quite interested in banking and how it works. So, I decided to make my own bank, Bennett Banking & Co., then so I decided to look at the current situation that Lovia's monetary system is in, who runs it? I first went to the Lovian dollar, I found out that our money is printed and controlled by a Central bank in Europe, I found that our Finance Minister is not very active when such a role is extremely important. I was thinking after I signed 'Pro' on the new connection to Charleston, how will the workers get their money, how will we distribute the money to the companies in which we buy the products to build such a structure? Where do we hold all of our money? What do we base our currency off of? Gold, silver, trust, the dassie? Did Lovia just ignore the global meltdown in 2008? While I know the Congress likes to hold a lot of power and what not, but when a economic crisis is on its way we should have a quick reaction preventing of either inflation or deflation, enforce stable prices and have some-type of safeguard for the Lovian economy. I propose the creation of the Lovian National Reserve, which would become the OFFICIAL bank of Lovia, you will not believe how many bank pages I went through to find that the National Bank of Lovia and the Aventis National Bank are one in the same, and act as our national bank. I would really like to head this project, with the help of Hoffman (mans a genius). Anyway, please throw at me your thoughts.

---Sunkist- (talk) 06:36, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Firstly, I am in the process of implementing a local currency to Sylvania called the Sylvan, it'd be resistant to inflation and would be printed and controlled here and would give oil to the wheels of the local economy, helping it grow. Personally I'd like the national bank (if we do actually bring something of the sort in) not to be involved in actual business but to be used for only printing money and for ensuring good trading rates with other currencies. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 07:51, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Please do not make a state currency, why can't we just have a national currency? The Bank I'm proposing in not commercial, like you said would only be for printing money, ensuring good trade rates currencies and several other things. -Sunkist- (talk) 10:32, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I am creating it for many reasons, firstly because the Lovian Dollar is pegged to the US Dollar and inflation is hurting the Sylvanian economy, secondly local currencies circulate much faster than national currencies and therefore provides greater economic benefit and also it is not intended to replace the Lovian Dollar, it is supposed to be used beside it.
 * And I'm glad that the Bank will not be commercial. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:00, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I think the Lovian dollar is currently fixed to the US dollar. 77topaz (talk) 07:43, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * It is, which has rampant inflation, which is just one reason why I'm creating the Sylvan. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 07:51, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe the Lovian dollas has been unpegged. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 12:38, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * We would have had to vote on it, which we haven't. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:00, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Would the Sylvan be the sole currency of Sylvania, or would it circulate alongside the dollar? Frijoles333 (talk) 15:55, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * It would circulate along side the Lovian Dollar. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:32, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Kunarian, since when has the US dollar had inflation? The inflation rate's average per year has been 3% at the very highest (I think it's more like 2%) over the past decade. And as far as I know, the US dollar has been doing alright against other currencies. Anyway, no Sylvan. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:52, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * You don't know the US dollar has had inflation? are you not aware of current problems in countries like the US and UK where their currencies are inflating faster than the national wage is rising? The US dollar is only holding up because it is the worlds reserve currency, something it shouldn't rely on forever. Also the US dollar is inflated by US government agencies for it's own purposes in the US, it does not consider Lovia. Also considering the continuation of the world depression we need a fluid and flowing currency, the US dollar is not doing that for America what makes you think it's pegged Lovian Dollar will work for Lovia?
 * The Sylvan is part of a solution to a problem that few people are even attempting to deal with and are instead shrugging their shoulders just going "tough luck John Smith". Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:04, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you're talking about with the US dollar. The average inflation rate for one year over the past 10 years is about 2%, a healthy inflation rate (it can't be about zero or negative because people will start saving instead of spending, hurting the economy). How is a second currency going to help the situation at all? In fact, it seems that you've decided a Sylvan is a Lovian dime. :/ Anyway, I don't know the inflation rate for the pound sterling but it doesn't seem dangerously high. Small inflation is good. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:22, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * over just the last year it has been 2%, however before that it was 3.6-3.8%. Besides countries are actually inflating their currencies to lower the amount of real debt they have to pay. I don't think that inflating currencies to benefit those in power and to the detriment of common workers is the focus we want for our currency.
 * My argument is that we need greater control over our currency, for a variety of reasons. But what is key is that we need this now, we also need a more fluid economy, the Sylvan will allow this for Sylvania as regional currencies are proven to have greater circulation. Also the 1 Sylvan = a Lovian Dime is the starting exchange after that, the Sylvan will be protected from inflation and therefore so will the workers. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:55, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not doing this to cause problems, regional and local currencies exist all over the world, I'm doing this because with strong conviction I believe this will help people. It'll not complicate things and people who want to use it can, those who don't won't have to. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:23, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think while the subject it relateable, it is a bit off track. The subject was a centralized bank and how to go about that? The issue of state currency is debatable later. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:53, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right this has gone off topic. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:55, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

May I say after consideration I'm holding fire on the Sylvan proposal as long as we can really work towards having control over our currency and having it work better as a currency than it currently does. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 11:44, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Alright, great. It will be good to see us improve our national currency. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:02, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

- reset -

So Sunkist is writing up a law, I'm going to assist and offer advice, progress will be critiqued here. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 11:44, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Might I suggest, replacing a federal reserve system with a centralized Central Bank? We do not have the size or population to merit having a network of banks, while having just a centralized one makes more sense. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:32, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Lovia obviously would have a at least a small network of banks, they are huge sectors of any economy and Lovia being an advanced country would most definitely have them. Also centralised are horrible things, they should be left far away, federal reserve is a better idea. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:14, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but that network is of private banks. We only need one central bank in Noble city, and then use these private branches for distribution. Most countries work this way, with only the US (as far as I know) having such an extensive network. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:47, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * And most countries bank systems are corrupt. We should aim to be better, not to be the same. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:33, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Centralized does not mean corrupt. Look at Canada; they have a centralized and well-regulated banking system which is often considered the best in the world, while the American system pales in comparison. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:36, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Canadas success is partly due to good management. And I never said centralisation meant corruption, what I am against is a central bank that interacts with the economy beyond sustaining the worth of the currency. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:48, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well our central bank should also be involved in some regulations of private bank practises; we would be safer off following a model along Canada's lines. 17:05, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why do we need banks to regulate banks, that in and of itself is a flawed idea, it's like saying we need to build a huge tinned food factory but it won't make tinned food it'll regulate other tinned food factories. We can regulate banks just like we regulate everything else. We would be safer off not allowing bankers to control part of our government. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 17:11, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Without some regulations we could have a situation like what the US banks did n 2007-08. BUT, we have few banks in Lovia, they are stable and overall are unlikely to overextend themselves. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:17, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree we need regulations, but not banks regulating banks, instead the Government regulating banks. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 17:47, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, government oersight would work well. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:55, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right banks should not be regulating other banks, this is not the case inside of Lovia. Inside of the United States, the Federal Reserve is ran in the interests of both private and public, which it allows private bank owners to become part of the Fed's (oddly). The National Reserves would not condone anything of the sorts, all of the actions of the National Reserves should be in the best interests of the Lovian people, and the oversight by the chairman (which should be a government official) should do monthly updates and congressional hearings. Its true in the US we have banks regulating banks, but here with the bill I'm writing is the government regulating the banks. ---Sunkist- (talk) 19:15, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind maintaining the status quo plus adding regulations -- I feel like a US style federal reserve is a tad too much for Lovia, unless you're thinking a different approach to it. Could you elaborate on your proposal, sunkist? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:02, May 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * You're right, the US style federal reserve is something we don't want to go for. I'm still working on a proposal, but what I'm trying to aim for is a government  holding of the nations money, right now we don't have that much order in terms of our government holdings, who prints it and who gets it when and where. If we look at the US style federal reserve it has this board of (we all know it, its made up of former big bankers) men who lead the Fed's for both in the benefit of the private (typically) and publicly. Just think, some big banking company donates bucket loads of money too a presidential candidate, the President makes sure that their guy gets a seat on that board. Here we would have a system in which the Congress must select another member to take control. He or she shouldn't be an un-elected appointed honorary to protect one of the most important institutions of a nation, sadly thats how it works in America. Just one chairman, no back door deals to private banks, be there to support the people and support the government with finacial aid. Right now the status quo is in bad shape, we don't even support our own currency, we have another central bank print it for us, and by fixing this we have this institution be responsibile for printing our tender, Lovians printing Lovian money. We need somthing to control the banks from going crazy with loaning and having little reserves. -Sunkist- (talk) 02:24, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with what you say, but on the last bit: most countries have their currency printed with specialized security printers like De La Rue, Canadian Bank note, Giesecke & Devrient etc. given that they have the technology to work with specialized paper, holograms, security threads. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:37, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

I must ask that we are on the same page simply and clearly, we both want a Lovian National Reserve that will: And on top of that we both want: Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 17:21, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Print the Lovian Dollar
 * Manage exchange rates for the Lovian Dollar
 * Hold the money of the Lovian Government
 * Have no part in regulating Banks
 * An act on regulation of banks ensuring safety in the financial sector
 * Simplicity in this above all


 * I don' think an act would provide good administration. We have several different size of banks, some small, some large, private, public, we need QUICK availability of the National Reserves to be able to tweak regulations, such as reserve amounts and interest rates to counter a financial meltdown. I believe the Lovian National Reserve SHOULD have a part in regulating banks, but the banks should not hold a part in running the National Reserve (unlike the Fed's) .-Sunkist- (talk) 19:12, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * An act is how we administrate everything, it would outline how banks are allowed to behave, we cannot (by law) actually have a qausi-independent reserve setting regulations how and when they like it. Regulations must come from government however that doesn't mean that the National Reserve can't be involved in this regulation in some manner (though I would prefer if it wasn't). I am glad we are in agreement however on banks not being involved in running it. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 20:00, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * If we do make such an act, I think it should still give the National Reserves plenty of room to fix rates and have the ability to protect the Lovian economy at all cost. You keep saying "Regulations must come from government", I ensure you this is the government. I really have a problem with politicians whom oddly in Lovian own almost all of the Lovian finances, and are the richest in the country and have power in both business and politics. It needs to be qausi-independent to be safe from the horrors from the cabalists of Lovia. -Sunkist- (talk) 20:09, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * The National Reserve could probably fix rates (although could you explain in full what rates those are before I agree completely) and do things to help the Lovian economy (depending on what those are again) however I would prefer the governments bank to be seperate from the bank regulator. Also I understand your problems, Lukas is but a humble Lawyer (admittedly he married into the rather rich Kameron Family), the cabal cannot be allowed however how we fight it is the question. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 20:29, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I'd say these rates would be mostly to control how much banks need to have in their reserves to be able to loan. Open market operations, reserve requirement, we need a National funding rate, which would mean that the National Reserve would provide banks with funds which they would be required to pay back with interest. There is several other interests that I don't know of, but I'm learning, that should be used by the National Reserve. -Sunkist- (talk) 21:02, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

We could have the National Reserve Chairman have powers in emergencies. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:09, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * How would such an emergency mode be triggered? Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 20:29, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Based on their judgement, and would be dismissed by Minister of Finance or Congress in the event of power abuse. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:14, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

I also want to make the National Reserves immune from short term political gains, politicians want to always please the people for a short term effect (such as an election) and will screw over the economy. Any ideas about how the chairman should be selected, if hes a MOTC then what should he be doing the elections, what if he isn't reelected? ---Sunkist- (talk) 22:53, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

National Reserves Act

 * 1) Creation of the Lovian National Reserves for the cause of:
 * 2) promotion of sustainable growth;
 * 3) employment of the common public;
 * 4) stable prices;
 * 5) preserving the worth of the currency promoted by the Lovian state;
 * 6) In its respectable power it will provide its services and power upon;
 * 7) Lovian banks which are part of the National Reserves system.
 * 8) All banks present inside of Lovia must apply to join the National Reserve.
 * 9) Such banks will provide zero governance over the National Reserves, but may retain the ability to advise the National Reserves on issues concerning such matters of economic importance.
 * 10) Such responsibility for the National Reserves will be to provide safe transactions between banks, ensuring a safe payment system inside of the Lovian state, maintaing that all Lovians money is treated safely and will review banks actions that may conflict with the economy and the common people.
 * 11) Maintain the ability of setting the discount rates; an interest rate which the National Reserve may set upon individual banks whom are part of a loaning agreement.
 * 12) Maintain the ability of setting the reserve requirements; the amount of physical funds that depository institutions are required to hold in reserve against deposits in bank accounts. It determines how much money banks can create through loans and investments.
 * 13) The Lovian Government
 * 14) Ensure that a secure and legal tender is possible, possessing that the currency supported by the Lovian state is not corrupted.
 * 15) All Lovian coinage and legal tender must be produced inside of the Lovian state under the authority of the National Reserves.
 * 16) Providing safe keeping of the Lovian governments holdings of collected taxes and state ownings in companies.
 * 17) Distribution of such holdings of the government to respectable areas requested by the Lovian Congress.
 * 18) Creation of short-term and long-term interest rates and foreign currency exchange rates.
 * 19) Provide the Lovian Government with loans and bonds to supply itself with funding.
 * 20) In return such interests set by the Chairman will be repayed by the government.
 * 21) Setting open market operations.
 * 22) Which gives the National Reserves the ability of buying or selling of  government bonds  on the open market.
 * 23) The Lovian Economy & Corporations
 * 24) While providing such responsibilities in Article (2) under Section (1) of paragraphs (2) and (1) the Lovian National Reserve may investigate if such domestic or international companies or corporations are seekings to manipulate the Lovian economy, spend such money through means of illegal activities or seek to manipulate the National Reserve.
 * 25) If such activities are found in an investigation, the Lovian National Reserve may have the authority to punish such banks that provide loaning or services to said corporations.
 * 26) Punishments may also include the halt of that corporations assets and ownings in Lovia, seizure of such money being traded illegally or being manipulated.
 * 27) Leadership & Duties
 * 28) Selection & removal of Chairman.
 * 29) In a majority vote of the Congress of Lovia will a candidate be selected.
 * 30) In a tree-fouths vote by the Lovian Congress may a Chairman be removed.
 * 31) Chairman of the National Reserves will have a life term position, which will remove any threat of being ousted due to public opinion due to short term political interests and may do what is best for the state of Lovia's economy.
 * 32) In such authority, the National Reserves will be independent from any external or internal government office, such as an agency or ministry.
 * 33) Qualifications for Chairman
 * 34) Must be a member of the Congress.
 * 35) Must have been a citizen of Lovia for more then one month.
 * 36) The Chairman will retain the responsibilites of controlling the National Reserve and its powers, explained in (1) and (2).

Needs a few small revisions, but I'm going to sleep now. Looks good overall. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:55, May 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, lets get started. Any specific sections people have a problem with? -Sunkist- (talk) 16:05, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

1. Apparently all other national reserves in other countries are actually preserved land areas. It should probably be renamed (not sure what, apparently we don't want a national bank?) 2. Only some banks are part of its system? 3. Define discount rate more clearly: general interest rate, a window of what institutions can take from the national reserve, etc. 4. Don't understand 2.2.2. 5. Investigations aren't in the scope of a national bank, that's part of the Ministry of Defense (or Finance, but not the bank)'s job. 6. Chairman should be proposed by the Minister of Finance, approved by Congress, and fired by one half or possibly two thirds majority in Congress. 7. Why do they need to be a Member of Congress? And what if they're not re-elected next term? 8. Overall nice but needs revision. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:29, May 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * 1. Well, National Reserves are sometimes seen as 'parks', but I've always heard them called 'nature reserves' I think we should keep the name, be different from all the other 'Federal Reserves' and 'Central Bank's'.


 * 2. Well, it would simply be a way to get banking companies to apply to become officially banks inside of Lovia, and I can keep a record, all the banks will most likely need to join if they want to function correctly. I'll write some where in there that the banks HAVE too join.


 * 3. Alright, a discount rate is where a private bank asks the National Reserve for money, its basically like the bank turns into a customer of the National Reserve and asks for a loan, then later on down the road the bank will provide interest back to the bank, which will help cut the debt or provide reserves for the NR. All Bank corporations are able to apply for discount rates.
 * 4. Well, I'm all about confidentiality, and I don't want any other part of the government whom are elected leaders have the ability to investigate, pull a company under rug just because of looking good in the publics eye. The National Reserve will have most of the nations most important documents, where money goes too from place to place, how much, and to whom.
 * 5. Again, I severely against allowing another Ministry have the ability to appoint candidates, some one just applies to run for such a position and the Congress just accepts them or doesn't. If the Minister of Finance only has the power to propose, then it allows for him to really control the bank, back door deals, all that bad stuff.
 * 7. Well, I didn't want to empower some banker whom has his hands way down in some big banks pockets, listening to their every word, and plus Politicians are exposed into the public way sooner then any private owner or dealer. If the person is not re-elected, they loose their MOTC seat, not the Chairmen seat, if he or she had to worry about keeping their Chairman seat they would 'run' or campaign about what they would do as the Chair or do things to impress the public, when it could hurt the overall economy.

---Sunkist- (talk) 16:52, May 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Please, somebody give me some feedback on the bill, I want to hear the complaints and woes about the bill. Lets get raunchy. -Sunkist- (talk) 02:04, May 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * If the bill is not ready to be voted on, will some one please give me so feed back..-Sunkist- (talk) 21:07, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I really liked what I said earlier. Definitely needs to be appointed by MoF, 3/4 majority should be 1/2 (if he's not doing anything wrong it's probably not going to reach 1/2, we are very reasonable here). Name should be changed. Clauses should be added required banks to be regulated by this. Shouldn't need to be MOTC. And the scope of the reserve is too much. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:25, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

But I just provided the reasons why I'm against that. When the economy goes bad, people go after the people that are trying to help, thus I believe a 3/4 majority is needed. I'm telling you the reasons why these qualifications are so are in the BEST intrest of the Lovian people. -Sunkist- (talk) 01:49, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

We aren't idiots who would do that. I disagree and will vote against this if that isn't changed. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:33, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

From what I see, people are EASILY motivated and moved around here on their core beliefs and how they react is unpredictable. I don't think the MoF should just appoint some one, it would interfere with the independence of the National Reserve. I am willing to change the qualifications. -Sunkist- (talk) 02:44, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

The MoF appointment is negotiable, but a 3/4 majority vote to put out of office is way too high. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:06, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, how about 2/3rd's? -Sunkist- (talk) 03:09, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe, let's see what everyone else thinks. Also, the MOTC requirement should be removed, imo. Opinions on MoF nomination vs. nomination by any MOTC, anyone? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:22, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

We should really use a different name for our central bank. Our banknotes already say "Bank of Lovia", so wh not go with that? HORTON11 : •  12:55, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

014. Financial Outline Act

 * 1) The expenditures and revenue of the Government of Lovia are managed by a budget.
 * 2) Expenditures are the outflow of money from the Government, spent in order to maintain the programs and organs of government and support the nation of Lovia and its interests.
 * 3) Revenue is the inflow of money into the Government, collected in order to pay for expenditures.
 * 4) Revenue includes taxes and tariffs, outlined in the Taxation Act, and any income generated by a program or organ of the Government.
 * 5) On April 1 of each calendar year, a budget passed by Congress shall go into effect.
 * 6) Such a budget must be passed by a normal majority in Congress during the months of February or March of the same calendar year.
 * 7) After April 1 and before December 31 of the same calendar year, all citizens eligible for taxation should outline and pay their taxes to the Government.
 * 8) Citizens who do not complete this procedure may be prosecuted for tax evasion by the Ministry of Justice.
 * 9) Congress may modify the expenditures of the budget by a normal majority after April 1 to accommodate any unforeseen changes, but not the revenue.
 * 10) In the event that no budget is passed by Congress, the budget from the previous year should be extended proportionally for the amount of extra time it is being used until a new budget is passed by Congress.
 * 11) In this case, citizens should file and pay their taxes once the newer budget is passed. If they have already filed and pay their taxes for the old budget, a refund will be given once the citizen pays their taxes for the newer budget.
 * 12) A budget must include the following items:
 * 13) A setting of tax and tariff rates for each tax and tariff explained in the Taxation Act, which may or may not be variable depending on the income or profit of the paying entity.
 * 14) A setting of expenditures made by the government.
 * 15) Expenditures must meet the necessary costs for the upkeep of all government programs and organs and all other non-discretionary spending.
 * 16) An outline of income from non-tax or tariff sources.
 * 17) A budget made by the Government should have its revenue be equal to or greater than the total expenditures made by the Government.
 * 18) This provision may be ignored in times of national crisis.
 * 19) When the federal budget is facing a deficit, the state must borrow money on the financial market.
 * 20) When the federal budget has a surplus, it should be used to pay off the country's debt.
 * 21) Spending the surplus on new policy can only be done if the new policy is taken up in the budget, lowering the surplus.
 * 22) If there is no national debt, the surplus should either be converted to new policy or saved in a reserve fund.
 * 23) The Ministry of Finance is responsible for heading the creation and enforcement of a national budget.
 * 24) The Ministry should work alongside Congress, the other Ministries, and the rest of the Government to formulate a budget each year.
 * 25) The Government must not overfund or underfund any program or organ of the government within its budget.

Thoughts? This would accompany the Taxation Act. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:55, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * It looks okay so far, I'll have to think things over and see if any problems come up. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 17:09, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

This is good! You've obviously put a lot of work into writing it :) Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 17:12, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

Great! Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:28, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

015. State(Wide) Reform
One line to be added to the end of the State Elections section within the constitution
 * 1) If the Governor or Deputy Governor remains inactive in their position by not editing in the last 40 days an election should be called immediately to replace one, or both positions.

Any suggestions, thoughts, ideas? Should be longer, or just right? Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:26, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

Marcus, you need to learn there/their/they're. Anyway, I don't really support this, if someone's inactive, we can just run their state for them. I think the only real required thing they'd need to do is the census. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:38, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * I can support this however there's a point to be made that you shouldn't elect someone who you think is going to be inactive. Really we should never have to run anyones state for them. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:43, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * @TM yeah yeah yeah, its fixed. But It's not true, I've advocated on this time and time again, yet nothing. People don't vote by 'activity' or 'progress' anymore it's first, does he/she meet my ideology, but it's not working! I'm fully pro devolution and I can see that it's not gonna get the libertarian-esque support. Yet, the same argument should be made for the federal level. Where such parties like the LMP and MCP are supported and elected by the Conservatives and support others who are in such parties like the PL and other fringes, yet never report to work. Should we not replace them too? At this point I can't even see this getting passed because they make up about 30% of congress and we need about 70% to pass it with everyone voting in favor.
 * @Kun - Read above...we still support them though. I can tell you the candidates I supported in the Federal elections are still active (Me, oos, Abrahams) yet some can't. Because the CDP, PL, LMP, MCP, and certain other pols don't actually report to work. And you know me, pro state rights so I'd never propose that. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:05, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * To be fair, half of CDP reports to work, at least as much as SCP does. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:25, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yea but seirously the point is to replace inactive Pols, with active ones with aspirations. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:31, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with people running the state for the governor, when the whole point of being a Governor is to lead the state. I think that people shouldn't stand if they are just going to remain inactive for much of their term. How about inactive Governors are replaced by an active Deputy Governor, and the Deputy Governor is also not active, elections are called? Also, its not good for state devolution (which I fully support) if the State Governments ate inactive. Anyways, that's just what I think Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 13:50, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * If you're against inactives then I assume you support the idea of being able to vote once for a party like you can only vote once for a candidate. This simple regulation completely stops people from spamming candidates which vote only within their party and then go inactive quickly and never vote, that's what happened to this congress, loads of parties stood multiple candidates to try and vote only within their party. The only one party out of them all (credit to topaz for keeping things together) that stayed reasonably active was the Green Party, and even one of their members rarely shows their face and rarely votes. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 14:48, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

I think the current Deputy situation is good enough. We don't have a single untaken state. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:48, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

@Kun-But don't you realize that's what your doing? You'll create more and more single-person parties to get people to support each other? That isn't progress it's regressive, what happens in every election is these parties get elected like MCP, (the CDP is mostly inactive i dont care what people say) CDP, LMP, PL get elected not because of there great contribution to Lovia, because of there ideology. Your soultion only exacerbates that problem by creating more parties and more people not to show up an do there jobs. @oos - Yes but a seat in Clymene and Oceana was nothing being done. Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:28, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * So you think it's progressive to create a political system where people are crammed into maybe 2 or 3 parties? and where peoples only real choice is between those 2 or 3? that is truly regressive and that is a system you have been part of and are now supporting.


 * Also don't lecture me on people getting elected not because of their great contribution to Lovia but because of their ideology, that is what my system would counter, it would force people to truly consider where their second and third votes should go rather than dump it on another party member. And need I remind you of the way YOUR PARTY ousted Oos (the single greatest Oceana contributor and probably the best active contributor) from Oceana simply to put someone in who was part of your party (Walden).


 * My solution also does the complete opposite of what you're saying, it makes candidate spamming pointless and makes it so that there will be a much greater percentage of active people showing up to their jobs because their seat share didn't get worn down by a load of inactives who just showed up so that their party could vote only within itself. You will see this when it becomes apparent that the Train Village council is far more active percentage wise than congress due to this voting system. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:00, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah and I didn't say that. Frankly a system that works is one in place + making laws to remove inactive politicians, not your plan to stop democracy in hopes it solves the problem. In your solution people would only make political parties to keep themelves in it and have no other users in it and then just support each other, we'd have 10-12 parties. Yup, and i'll keep you too that, considering all the votes are going to the CNP and IGP there won't be must dissagreemnt, try it on a larger scale when you have three times as many people and when the votes are largely more distributed to more inactive people (like from those smaller inactive parties) Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:47, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is off topic, I'm moving it to my talk page where this kind of thing belongs. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 17:50, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * true, anyway is there general support for this? Seems simple can it be moved? Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:01, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello, Is there support for this. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:14, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't believe so. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:27, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Really? wow. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:29, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Honesty è. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:42, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

016. Half of Congress
I propose to alter Constitution Article 8.1.4. For obvious reasons. I'm not sure whether we can fix this right now (cuz we might no longer have these 67% majorities), but at least this line - even in its current form - enables us to hold new elections if we really get frustrated and f.e. Kunarian, TM and me declare ourselves inactive (for one day :P) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:29, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * New federal elections must be held when more than half of the Members of the Congress are inactive; either self-declared or if they have not edited for over a month (30 days). > New federal elections must be held when more than one third of the Members of the Congress are inactive; either self-declared or if they have not edited for over a month (30 days).

I don't know if I want to dissolve Congress. A couple people like Happy still pop on from time to time and might be convinced to vote (even though it seems like he's purposely ignoring me when I say three times on his talk page to vote in the Second Chamber D:<), giving us the 67%. Anyway, if you want, you can propose a manual motion of no confidence, and if it gets 50%, we will have new elections. I will continue to consider my vote. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:42, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it was more meant as a possibility in case we need it :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:56, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm going with 2/5ths inactive just to troll >:D --Quarantine Zone (talk) 15:21, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd say when 40% of congress in active not half, 33% may be bit a much. Maybe 35%, ot is that too exact. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:54, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, re-reading it: we are obliged to hold new elections, which might not be best after all :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:25, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * If we can hold elections now i'm all for it. I don't see why not, considering they'd technically be my last :p might as well go out with a bang! Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:36, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait, you're leaving Lovia?? HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:56, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

Wait, you're actually leaving? I thought you were just retiring from federal politics to focus on Clymene. Anyway, about the bill, we really should do something about inactive MOTCs so we can make more progress Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 18:01, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

Noo by elections I meant (federal). I think we should just call an election now, vote in July and have that second congress stay until the rest of the year. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:06, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah I agree Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 18:09, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, a lot of the congress is inactive. Half of my party isn't active...and Semyon hasn't been on in over a month. Happy wasn't active for most of May and hasn't been on in June. Congress could use some re-election. I'm settling at 40%. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 19:37, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't mid-term elections already be held if a vote for them is passed in Congress? So, what exactly does this amendment "add" that would make it (the amendment) useful/necessary? 77topaz (talk) 08:15, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not that much :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:19, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I'll propose that then. To be honest, we're at a level of activity where if we have elections now we'll have a good amount of users to be in for the rest of the year. Anyone else want to join me in that? Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:18, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

017. Weapons and Safety Act
This is new act, not revision or addition to the current Firearms Act


 * 1) Concealed weapons licenses must be obtained in order to conceal any fire arms from others while in public.
 * 2) All owners must be at least 24 years of age.
 * 3) Ballistic knives and sheath knives are not considered fire arms.
 * 4) All automatic weapons are illegal, except in the case of an official government military, militia, or police.
 * 5) Switchblade knives are illegal to manufacture, trade, sell, and buy, but legal to own for historical purposes.
 * 6) Bayonets are illegal to manufacture, trade, sell, and buy, but legal to own for historical purposes.
 * 7) Bullets containing poison, toxins, and explosives are illegal to manufacture, trade, buy, sell, and own, except in the case of an official government military, militia, or police.
 * 8) In the case of an official government military, militia, or police, soft chemical explosives are legal.
 * 9) This includes chemicals similar to the following: Capsaicin (pepper spray), phenacyl chloride (mace), sleeping gas, tear gas, or chemicals in stun grenades.
 * 10) Sleeping gas is any chemical containing halothane vapour (Fluothane), methyl propyl ether (Neothyl), methoxyflurane (Penthrane), 3-Quinuclidinyl benzilate or fentanyl.
 * 11) Tear gas is any chemical containing chlorobenzalmalononitrile, dibenzoxazepine, nonivamide, bromoacetone, xylyl bromide, or synpropanethial-S-oxide.
 * 12) Stun grenades are any explosive containing pyrotechnic metal-oxidant mixes of magnesium or aluminum, ammonium perchlorate, or potassium perchlorate.
 * 13) Newly manufactured items that have a similar look or use to firearms are required to have orange tips to signify that they are not legally firearms.
 * 14) This includes but is not limited to water guns, airsoft guns, paintball guns, pellet guns, BB guns, and model guns.
 * 15) Bows and crossbows are considered weapons fit for hunting.

As the majority of the controversy was focused on hunting in the last act, I have removed any hunting laws (with exception to the crossbows and bows) from this act. This is now considered a weapons and safety act. If you have any suggestions, once again, drop them below. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 16:07, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

It might not fit so well in the Firearms Act, which is solely about firearms and militias. So is this changing the name of that act to the "Weapons and Safety Act"? Also, I don't think the government should have automatic weapons, poisonous or explosive bullets (agree with soft chemical = tear gas, though). Lastly, switchblade knives should probably be legal to own for historical purposes (like with the bayonet rule). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:00, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

And fix section 1.1, it limits too many people (those not 24). HORTON11 : •  17:06, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with TM on this one, except for the middle-most sentence. The government (army) should be able to have access to automatic weapons and explosive bullets. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:28, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

I don't know, it could turn into a tyranny. :/ —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:14, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

@Time, it is an addition. Nothing would be removed, as stated at the beginning. The automatic weapons are needed in military. We wouldn't stand a chance against anyone without automatic weapons. Remember, at the moment all weapons are legal for military. For the switchblades, I can change that. @Horton, I'll change that to 21. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 18:45, June 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, you must've misinterpreted my comment. I like the 24, but you should add "and over" or else anyone above that age couldn't have one. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 18:54, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Got it fixed --Quarantine Zone (talk) 19:29, June 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * So nothing (the name of the entire act) would change, even though the title of this proposal is the Weapons and Hunting Act? Also, then the automatic weapons are fine. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:30, June 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Time, your misreading this. It's the Weapons and Safety Act. This is an addition to the current laws. It will not repeal or replace anything. The only part relating to hunting is the last line. The Weapons and Hunting Act from earlier failed to pass, so I gave up for the time being. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 05:09, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * So lemme get this straight a conservative is proposing an add on to an act to further regulate weapons? Well I have never seen that! While I support it, I don't know much about weaponry/hunting. So in 5.1 what is a "soft chemical explosive", just if you can clarify. Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:07, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why are automatic knifes like ballistics allowed? Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:10, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, so it's a separate law. It seemed like you said you were adding it to the firearms act. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:04, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ballistic knives are legal for the same reasons as hand guns. They are able to be concealed and are helpful for defense. Currently none of this is regulated. Voting on it will only regulate weapons more. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 20:15, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * True, but i'd rather they not be Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:30, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * They're also recreational. Fun for target shooting! If we made ballistic knives illegal, it wouldn't really do much. Hardly anyone has them, and the people that do have them usually have other weapons for self defense as it is. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 22:02, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll vote pro. don't worry :D Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:56, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

To the Second Chamber? --Quarantine Zone (talk) 00:03, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

It seems to have CCPL-SLP-LP support. I bet the CNP will come along since it protects bows and stuff. MOVE IT :D Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:16, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

I don't know, it might be better to just tack it on to the end of the Firearms Act and rename the entire thing the Weapons Act. Also, not sure the last line is entirely needed, it seems random and useless. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:07, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

018. Call for new elections
This is just an open debate, should we have new elections? Just wanting to know Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:34, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, even though I'll lose seats... Much of our Congress is inactive. It will more than likely only get less active. This means less bills getting passed. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 23:51, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Looking for other parties, possibly CCPL-CNPorSLP? Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:22, June 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, this is much-needed. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 20:27, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

I'm still thinking about this. :/ —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:07, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

Haaa the IGP is on board, IF They had any votes xD Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:15, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

The Congress still seems to be functional at the moment. :P 77topaz (talk) 22:46, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

It's difficult indeed :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich` 10:00, June 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Honestly I only see more issues from this. We have a sufficient amount of active congresspeople, and another election is going to be a lot of work to organize. Furthermore, if we do hold them, we're likely to get inactive guys running who will just get elected and then disappear. It's happened before and this is not a solution to a fully active congress. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:26, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Is there any way we can call for a new state election early? Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:38, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

Article 12 - Taxation Act

 * Article 12.1 - Taxation Regulation
 * In accordance with the Financial Outline Act, Congress should set tax levies in a federal budget in February or March for the budget of the fiscal year starting on April 1.
 * A normal majority is required to set tax levy amounts.
 * The tax levies may be reset to a different rate at any time in February or March.
 * Congress may not change the levies after April 1.
 * A proposal of set levies must fulfill one of the following aims:
 * The aim of filling a budget that has been drawn up by the Ministry of Finance; or,
 * The aim of filling a budget that has been drawn up by the Ministry of Finance and paying off debt accumulated by the government.
 * States may set and change levies of different taxes on a State level. These taxes are additional on top of taxes set by Congress.
 * Governors may set tax levies to raise money for use by the State governments, these taxes must be set with one of the following aims. The aim of funding State projects that are beneficial to the prosperity of the State or the aim of funding State projects that are beneficial to the prosperity of the State and paying off debt accumulated by the State government.
 * Congress may overturn the levies set by the Governor by voting with a normal majority.
 * Should Congress overturn levies set by the Governor, then the Governor may not set new levies for four weeks and current levies in the state are set to flat 0% rates.
 * The Ministry of Finance is responsible for filing and collecting taxes.
 * The Ministry of Finance must create documents that shall be used by government and individuals for filing taxes.
 * These documents must be simple, easy to understand and must not be misleading, there must also be a way to trace who filed the taxes on the documents.
 * The Ministry of Finance files taxes for all individuals or corporations unless otherwise stated.
 * In cases where the Ministry files taxes so that an individual or corporation ends up paying more tax than due, they are given an exemption in the next tax year equivalent to the over taxation. In cases where the Ministry files taxes so that an individual or corporation ends up paying less tax than due, the Ministry may request but may not force the individual or corporation to pay the difference on top of taxes in the next tax year.
 * In cases where an individual or corporation files their taxes so that they end up paying more tax than due, they may not request reparations or an exemption. In cases where an individual or corporation files taxes so that an individual or corporation ends up paying less tax than due, the Ministry may force the individual or corporation to pay the difference on top of taxes in the next tax year.
 * The Ministry of Finance must create a department for collecting taxes.
 * Those employed by the Ministry of Finance to this department are considered tax collectors.
 * Tax collectors are responsible for filing taxes
 * Tax collectors may collect taxes electronically with permission of the tax payer, they may also collect them from their bank account with the permission of the tax payer and they may also collect it in person from the tax payer with their permission.
 * Tax collectors are the enforcers of taxation within Lovia. They are given the right to temporarily seize property of tax evaders, disallow individuals or individuals of corporations to leave the country, revoke a citizens passport, use force to detain tax evaders and arrest tax evaders.
 * In all cases the Ministry of Defence must keep up to date with the actions of tax collectors and co-operate in enforcing their rights and must actively assist the Ministry of Finance in the detainment and arrest of tax evaders until they are brought before court.
 * An illegality is committed if any of the following occur:
 * A government official fails to correctly collect or file taxes due to negligence.
 * An individual fails to correctly file taxes with the intent of reducing the amount of tax paid.
 * Illegalities can be punished by imprisonment for up to 5 years, by a fine set at a reasonable amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit. Preference should be shown towards a fine as punishment.
 * Article 12.2 - Income Tax
 * Every individual of 18 years of age or older must pay Income Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so. To be eligible to pay Income Tax and an individual must do one of the following.
 * Be earning income as defined below and must have resided within Lovia's national borders during the tax year.
 * Be a Lovian citizen earning income as defined below and must be earning income from an individual or corporation which resides within Lovia's national borders.
 * In this case only the income gained from the individual or corporation that resides within Lovia's national borders is eligible for tax.
 * Income is the sum total of the following.
 * Wage and salaries.
 * Wages, salaries and tips recieved by an individual for performing a service for another individual or entity or from another individual or corporation they are employee of, minus any wages, salaries or tips that an individual has given to another individual for being an employee of the concerned individual.
 * Pensions.
 * Pensions or annuity payments recieved by an individual from another individual or corporation minus any pensions or annuity payments that an individual has given to another individual. Pensions and annuity payments are fixed payments over a specified or unspecified period of time.
 * Capital gains.
 * Capital gains received by an individual from another individual or corporation. Capital gains are the profits gained by buying and then selling property, shares or bonds.
 * Lump sums.
 * Lump sums received by an individual from another individual or corporation, minus any lump sums that an individual has given to another individual. Lump sums are single payments of money.
 * Rental income.
 * rental income recieved by an individual from another individual or corporation, minus any rent that an individual has given to another individual. Rental income is when a payment is made for the temporary use of a good, service or property owned by another individual.
 * Dividends.
 * dividends recieved by an individual from a corporation. Dividends are payments made by a corporation to its shareholder members.
 * Income Tax required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individuals income and levying a set percentage which goes to the Ministry of Finance.
 * An exemption from this levy may be set, a next number of Lovian Dollars of income may have a set percentage levied and this may be done multiple times. All other income after these bands has a set percent levied.
 * Income Tax must be paid every year on the 1st of March.
 * Unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Income Tax for individuals however individuals residing within Lovia have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Income Tax.
 * The Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * An illegality is committed if any of the following occurs:
 * An individual distributes income to others for the main purpose of reducing the amount of tax paid.
 * An individual evades or otherwise fails to pay said taxes.
 * Illegalities can be punished by imprisonment for up to 5 years, by a fine set at a reasonable amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit. Preference should be shown towards a fine as punishment.
 * Article 12.3 - Property Tax
 * Every individual or corporation who owns property or land as defined by law within Lovia must pay Property Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so. To be eligible to pay Property Tax an individual or corporation must do one of the following.
 * Own property or land within Lovia's national borders.
 * Property is the combination of land and an improvement that has been built upon said land.
 * To avoid confusion property is measured in square metres by taking the distance between the furthest points along the width of the improvement and multiplying them by the distance between the furthest points along the length of the improvement.
 * Property is considered land if the improvements width and length are each no larger than 2 meters in size.
 * Land is land that has not had an improvement built upon it.
 * To avoid confusion land is measured in square metres.
 * Property Tax on property required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individual or corporations measured property and levying a set amount which goes to the Ministry of Finance depending on the amount of measured property owned.
 * An exemption from this levy may be set. All other property has a set levy of Lovian cents per square metre set.
 * Unless the property is under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service, National Monument Service or is Federal or State property in which case all other property has a different levy of Lovian cents per square metre set.
 * Property Tax on land require to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individual or corporations measured land and levying a set amount which goes to the Ministry of Finance depending on the amount of measured property owned.
 * An exemption from this levy may be set. All other land has a set levy of Lovian cents per square metre set.
 * Unless the land is under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service, National Monument Service, is Federal or State property or is being used for agricultural purposes, in which case all other land has a different levy of Lovians cents per square metre set.
 * Property Tax must be paid every year on the 1st of March.
 * Unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Property Tax for individuals and corporations however individuals and corporations based in Lovia have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Property Tax.
 * The Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual or corporation with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * An illegality is committed if any of the following occur:
 * An individual or corporation evades or otherwise fails to pay said taxes.
 * Illegalities can be punished by imprisonment for up to 5 years, by a fine set at a reasonable amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit. Preference should be shown towards confiscation of property as punishment.
 * Article 12.4 - Imported Sales Tax
 * Every individual or corporation which operates within Lovia's national borders must pay Imported Sales Tax should they be defined by law as eligible to do so. To be eligible to pay Imported Sales Tax an individual or corporation must do one of the following.
 * Have brought goods from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders.
 * Not be a citizen or be based outside Lovia's national borders.
 * Individuals or corporations who have brought goods brought from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders must register the goods with customs officers.
 * Imported Sales Tax is required to be paid on all goods when they are first sold within Lovia's national borders after having been harvested or manufactured outside of them and all services when they are paid for within Lovia's national borders.
 * Worth is the amount of Lovian Dollars the good or service is sold for.
 * Imported Sales Tax required to be paid is calculated by taking the worth of the imported goods when sold and levying a set percentage which goes to the Ministry of Finance.
 * all worth has an exclusive percentage levy set.
 * Imported Sales Tax must be paid every year on the 1st of March.
 * Unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Imported Sales Tax for individuals however individuals or corporations residing within Lovia have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Imported Sales Tax.
 * The Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual or corporation with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * An illegality is committed if any of the following occur:
 * An individual or corporation evades or otherwise fails to pay said taxes.
 * Failure to register all the goods that have been imported due to either intent or by negligence.
 * Illegalities can be punished by imprisonment for up to 5 years, by a fine set at a reasonable amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit. Preference should be shown towards a fine as punishment.

Discussion
My fellow Congressmembers, we as Lovians have a duty to ensure good governance, and how can we govern if we cannot fund our governance? we cannot. This bill makes provisions for the establishment of a national tax system and also allows for state taxes, both of which we desperately need. We can't run a government on tourism and sport revenues, if I came up to you and said let's fund a welfare system with the spare cash we'll get from a few football matches would you not call me crazy? So to further the already high confidence in this government, and to show that each and every one of us is committed to a responsible and financially apt government I ask you to vote in favour of this bill. thank you. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 11:53, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Very good :) Two things:
 * Apart from the National Park Service etc, also Federal Property and State Property should not be taxed.
 * The "improvement" thing is rather vague. Does this only include buildings (what about sheds?), or also gardens, sidewalks etc?
 * --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:22, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll make a modification so that it's clearly things like buildings not benches or fences. Improvement refers to something built upon land, normally a building. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 14:03, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I've reasonably addressed concerns. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:37, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, you did :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:22, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

Made a few modifications to fit with the Financial Outline Act. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:34, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Has that even been passed? Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 14:03, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * If that hasn't been passed yet can you propose it, it'll have my full support. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:37, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

It hasn't been passed yet, I wanted it to pass at the same time as the Taxation Act. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:05, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Propose it then, it'll have my full support. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:21, July 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm scared a tad over 12.1.3.2 on Congress overpowering the state taxes, because in turn it sorta defends conservative taxation. If you have a Conservative economical government, and it wants lower taxes it can enact that section and set state taxes from 6 or 7 percent, down to zero, and then compromise with the Feds and put it down to 3 or 4 percent while the incentive for a Progressive government to implement it on conservative state governments is zero.
 * Shouldn't those who work at 17 also pay taxes, in America I believe it's even lower, technically since birth if you have taxable income, its taxed.
 * Can States do property taxes, Is that covered by 12.1.3.1?
 * Are corporations coming later?
 * Molto bene! Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:47, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * How in gods name does Congress having the ability to stop Governor's going outright insane with their taxes (too high OR too low) defend conservative taxation? We have a clause about governors building and renaming places being able to be stopped by Congress with a 50% vote, does that defend something that starts with conservative? no, it's a safety check to ensure that no Governor is irresponsible. This is a non-issue and you shouldn't let left and right cloud your judgement on this vital issue.
 * No taxation without representation, the highest voting age is 18, therefore you should not be taxed until then. This also cannot be exploited to lower tax paid because that is covered in the act as illegal.
 * Yes completely.
 * This does not include corporation tax as I am against it, as the taxes a corporation pays are handed down onto the customer and worker. This might not harm a middle class earner but the common workers will be affected greatly. Goods will be more expensive so the tax becomes one on peoples earnings even after income tax, pay rises will become harder to do and so the tax becomes an inhibitor to people being able to earn more and profit is reduced and so therefore is investment meaning that the entire Lovian economy is worse off, need I explain how that further affects the two previous and much much more. However feel free to propose it at a later date, for now however we need these essential taxes.
 * Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 17:06, July 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay then but i'd doubt an overseeing body (congress) would tell the states "your taxes are too low" then set them to zero (even lower) then to how that state set them higher, or would a battle break out between the states and feds?
 * Which is why I fought for greater representation :P
 * I will thanks. I disagree for various reasons, but will take the action at a later date. As a socialist it'll come as a surprise to let you know I sorta agree in a sense. Brazil's actions were similar to what I believe in. Lula enacted hard and very binding regulation, while lowering taxation on corporations so more money would stay in the private sector while it wouldn't be played with loosely. So while I still support large scale regulations, corporate taxes should be levied at like 0-18%. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:18, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * So would you allow states to set super low taxes? I wouldn't, all your ifs and buts are not what will happen and no battle will happen between the state and feds, simply let me remind you we already have similar legislation that works without any battle between the states and the feds and without any conservative/socialist/ideological abuse.
 * So that more people could be taxed? that's a bleak reason, I did it so that people who deserved the vote could get it.
 * It comes as no surprise that you want to over regulate businesses and levy further indirect taxes on the poorest, as always I will oppose them.
 * Please Marcus be more constructive, if you find a real problem, also suggest a way to solve it. Additionally do not block this vital legislation. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 17:31, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, I'll support it just clarifying things, asking if it could occur don't take it as an insult or jab. On the second point no not really, but you put out the montra of no taxation without representation, jokingly I said which is why I fought for greater representation. Again this would fall under Pikapi's statement in the Pub but whatever. On the final point i'll let ya believe what you want. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:08, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't take things personally I'm not taking it as a jab more of I'm worried about this, I want to get this passed. Because I'd like something to go under my belt, because it is vital legislation and because we have been trying to pass this since (clue's in the name) 2012. That's all. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:49, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeh ill vote pro too, I remember last time (in protest) you voted nay, and I was the last one voting pro :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:52, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

Shall we move this to the second chamber? Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 08:54, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * We shall :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:32, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

020. Monarchy Referendum
I support a fully binding referendum on the current state of our monarchy. This would be composed of two questions, the first being thus: And the second being thus:
 * Do you think that Lovia should continue as a Monarchy or as a Republic?
 * Monarchy
 * Republic
 * Do you think that the current Monarchy should step down in favour of a new Monarch?
 * No
 * Yes, Prince Sebastian should take the throne
 * Yes, Another member of the Nobel family should take the throne
 * Yes, Another family should take the throne

Personally I will be supporting a Monarchy, on the basis of their contribution to our tourism and culture and that they have no power and are purely ceremonial. This is not a question to be taken lightly but I believe we must move the matter forwards. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 15:39, July 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * Isn't the Republic or Monarchy question one seperate from who is to take the throne? I suggest making this a poll solely about who will take the throne after Dimitri's deperature, rather then about the future of the monarchy. I already found myself having to defend the purpose and sense of having a monarchy already in the discussion about the monarchy's future. Whereas I think the two discussions should be discussed and voted on seperately. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 15:44, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Kunarian, I'll be supporting no referendum, until, frankly I have no other way of saying this a IP check is done on Donia. He is admandtly against the current Monarchy and has openly said hes for himself being King. I'd be entriely for the first question, hands down, but that issue has to be setteled.  Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:15, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * An IP check should be done on everyone then, what would a separate IP check on Donia achieve? Hoffmann LogoCNP2.png Kunarian TALK 16:17, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * What I think you should do, @Marcus, is read this essay. Read it entirely and read it fully. It's the scenario that will be officialized canon and will be carried out. Sebastian will be King. Not Ygo, not Bernd, nor any other member of my family. Sebastian, Dimitri's cousin, will take over. I, under my "the Master's Voice" account will take over the character of Sebastian. Ygo, as you can read yourself, was in an accident a while back. Might even kill him off altogether if you feel more comfortable with that. Now tell me kiddo, how this is in any way, shape or form an unreasonable or dangerous scenario? And tell me, too, how an IP check has anything to do with this, and why. I'm most curious. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 17:45, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well let me just say that I would support Sebastian as King of Lovia. If not I'd be fine with a republic (or perhaps, what about an elected king?). HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:50, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Marcus: An IP-check is not necessary. After all, if we get very dissatisfied with "Sebastian's" behaviour, we could simply revert everything and if needed block TMV (réálly dissatisfied). It isn't like we're gonna give Donia's account admin rights... In this case, wiki and country should be separated. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:06, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Kun/TMV - Call me paranoid but i've always supported at least annual IP checks  for everyone just to make sure everyone's clear. The issue would be that Bastard Royale, Donia (was there one or two accounts for him i forget) would come back and support a TMV monarchy. Just to make sure they aren't and that the ensuing referendum is fair. I think we've joked about it for too long without taking issue. TBH, I'd support a Republic (without a president, just a PM and Congress), over a monarchy. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:14, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

I almost feel like this is an unnecessary coup d'etat. We already ARE a republic, the royal family and Dmitri's character have no inherent political power. They are nothing more than washed-up celebrities at this point. I'd say we get Dmitri's opinion on the issue, if we haven't already, and respect his wishes. It's not a pressing issue, so if Dmi's alright with it, I'm all in favor of settling it TMV's way to see everyone happy. Secondly, Wikia only does IP checks in situations where there is reasonable suspicion with a particular user, I've handled that many-a-times. — Christopher Costello (Pikapi • Chat  • What's up ) 18:16, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

I mean then whats the point of this Monarchy, I can say this is a pick and choose issue like i'll go admantly support the British Monarchy, but ours is of no value. Kunarian mentioned that our Monarchy brings in tourism dollars, I don't know to be honest. I know the British one does, alot, but ours? I'm not trying to downplay our country, but tbh If im gonna see one palace its the one in London not Lovia. I think we should be the first question forward and support a republic. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:20, July 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * Marcus aside from the republic\monarchy discussion (which I believe is a seperate discussion that, as I said, should be kept seperate from this other discussion), I believe you should take into account that the King will have no wordly power and exercize no rights beyond those of the ordinary citizens. Never will I partake in political matters during my kingship, to preserve and safeguard the monarchy's integrity and neutrality in all matters of importance. This task I will take seriously, but I will at the same time be a more colourful King then the fellow we had before. It will be a change for the better, but not a big one in as much that nothing changes politically. As for the IP-check: the referendum will be fair, there will be no vote from "Bastard Royale". If there is, then go ask for the matter to be investigated. But when the referendum ends, all votes are casts and Sebastian's unruly bastard cousin remains nowhere to be seen, why the hell then waste wikia's time with an investigation? The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 18:24, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Marcus: So what you're saying there is that because there's a palace in London, no one will come to see the palace in Lovia? nonsense! So what? that'd be like saying people won't go to Clymene to stay in their hotels because there are hotels in England, France, the USA, you name it! It's absolutely silly to suggest that our Monarchy, which is such a unique thing in this part of the world and the world in general, would be of no interest. Hoffmann LogoCNP2.png Kunarian TALK 18:38, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's nothing against you Donia, everyone loves your political passions and attitude it always livens things up. If you think it's political, it hasn't crossed my mind really, Just either stick with the current tradition or republic. I won't go with an investigation, frankly I can't. Just it's clear that a case of sockpuppetry has occurred and needs settling is all. No more no less, and no crazy witch hunts. Ferenc and Oos during the Lovian times polling mentioned it and it is a concern. But taking it as somehow you can assure me Bastard Royale won't vote in the near future, i'm okay.

@kunarian - Well i'd say there isn't another gross over dramatization of a statement again but there is. First off your statement was that our monarchy has significance according to tourism and by that relation economic matters, we pay to keep a monarchy here and you would say that people from around the world would come in and view ours and that would balance it out through stay at hotels or buying food, in general right? Okay well that works for the United Kingdom and probably Spain too, definitely, in fact i'd agree with you, on economic means it does bring in a lot. I can't say we are the United Kingdom though. Historically, economically, or cultural significance to the world we aren't even the same level. So I doubt whatever minor level of tourism comes in from viewing our Monarchy is worth it. We aren't the powerhouse in comparison to the other European countries. To be honest realistically, if you were to come to Lovia you'd go for the beaches, the beauty, and culture in Seven or Kings. If you were to see the Palace, it'd be just a pass by, if you were to see it after we abolish the monarchy, I don't think out tourism would just stop or slow down even a bit. The hotel analogy is funny, idk i'm not comparing our Monarchy to a hotel, you are and of course you wouldn't, its a flawed argument. I go to French hotel if I want to see what is in France, I go to a Lovian hotel if I want to see what is in Lovia. In correlation to a Monarchy though, and stating that one would use a Lovian hotel just to see the Monarchy is a huge stretch. I'd like to see a report, if there is, on the same situation but with Monaco, or Andorra. I mean again not to say we have no culture, we have alot, but the first thing on someone's mind coming to Lovia won't be "lemme check out the smaller palace than the one in London, which also has more historical and cultural significance on the world in whole." Its "Can I go swimming, then hiking on these government protected environmental trails, and then catch some russian music in Novo, and then back to Adoha for some clubbing?" Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:55, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * * Cough * Nit * cough * picking. You write a paragraph about why you'd prefer to vacation to London instead of Lovia and how the current monarchy brings in no money. Does it even really matter to you, or is it just to debate with Kunarian? If you are going to have an unpopular opinion, at least give us a valid reason why. — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 19:09, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

Marcus, speak for yourself, I'd go on holiday to Lovia and so would other people. Especially those in the west USA, again I stress that people don't go "Let's go to the most expensive, well known place in the world!" otherwise my hometown which is a market town which used to have a railway and has a famous person (only locally though) known to be born here (those three things sound like a lot of towns in many ways) would get zilch tourism, but you know what, we do get tourism and people do come and take pictures and rent hotel rooms and spend money. They didn't go hey you know London, that place that has so many more markets, so many more old unused railways and so many famous people, let's go there instead. Also do you even know how much we pay to the Royal family? We haven't even got them in the budget! Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 20:02, July 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * @Chris, i'm done I can't even deabte something, show evidence, proof, logic, and then be accused i'm doing it for the sake of debating wwhich is which Hoffmann actually does (i.e UL debates, deabtes about anything, seriously i'm done at this point) And then you even said it yourself "and how the current monarchy brings in no money", because for the money we would have to put up with a monarchy we wouldn't see our return. Of course Lovians who like to have a monarchy think our monarhcy is the best and everyone will see it but if someone was to go SPECIFICALLY under the premise that one would go specifically for monarchies sake, one would not choose Lovia. Maybe because your Lovian, and know it, but I can assure you logically they wouldn't. Again like I said, I can't even disagree logically without this coming back at me. "Unpopular opinion without a reason"? Are you serious, did you read it, it was logically based, and there was no reasponse. Also when was the last time your saw widespread support for a Monarchy on the left of the spectrum? I support it if it had been around for a few hundred years like the British and is actually an economic and cultrual powerhouse, but ours isn't. Its since as an old, archaic, conservative (socially) structure which only gives the undeserved privlage the riches of the nation and never having to truly work. @Kunarian - I'm going to start off again by logically saying that yes realistically because we never did have a budget there is no budget, but would they be in it? Don't act like thats the big "I gotcha there" buddy. Of course they would be in it, just like every other country in the world stop. If were talking about outwest, I doubt they'd come here, even though Hawaii is farther its in the US and wouldn't need to go through customs and maybe even have family there, who knows maybe the have family here idc. But like I said people would, and if your saying they're from the US would come here for beaches or seeing the russian or asian culture, monarchy secondary and not as a primary place. But what I'm trying to proof is that people would come here first for the Monarchy instead they would come for the again "tropical" landscape. It wouldn't have the same income like the British Monarchy, can that be admitted? I get that okay yes if the Lovian monarchy was as popular as the British Monarchy, then sure it would be great and yeah people in Oostermond and TV would be helped, but to be frank for a country our size, for a country of our popualtion, its extremely unlikely. Most likely again, under your notion of Lovian Monarchy at least being on or near par on tourism or revenue like the British, they'd all be staying in Noble City not to travel across state lines or make the daily trip across the seat from state to state, they'd obviously think ahead. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:37, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course it's not going to bring in as much as the British Monarchy, the British monarchy truly is THE monarchy, however ours will still garner good tourism. And the monarchy has been around since the beginning of Lovia and before! It has been important to our culture and economy and it is not a 'conservative structure that gives the undeserved privileged the riches of the nation and never having to truly work' because we don't give them any money, any money they make is off their own back and we will tax it from them just like everyone else UNLIKE the British monarchy (which get's these lovely little tax breaks and changes I doubt any of us little folk will ever see). So economically they are just like our other major families, just more famous and called Royalty. Also they have absolutely no political power anymore, we've eliminated that, they are simply a figurehead. If TMV takes over as the Monarch via Sebastian and exercises restraint towards his more controversial bones as I trust him to we will see a great new figurehead emerge for our nation and Lovia will be a little more interesting. Hoffmann LogoCNP2.png Kunarian TALK 07:01, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * While we will disagree one the need for a new monarchy or the need for one at all, just move the first question to the second chamber. Well i'm not saying the tousim dollars for just our Monarchy would be zero but it would probably be in the low millions, I mean you wouldn't come to a warm island paradise to see the Monarchy, if anything the people coming to see the Monarchy are people from Lovia. Well maybe its because we never had a budget but we would have had too pay for them from the begining, I mean food, security, everyday needs, jewels and other expensive things, parades, a palace, a second palace because a large majority of the first one burned down, workers for the king and the palace, the garden, the gallery, etc. I mean I just doubt they'd work off what would keep them too be Monarchy it's seriously hard to believe, I mean why not just be normal or a commoner then. Basically it would be like saying "You took in xxx last year go work it off.". I get that they are a figurehead and have no power, just then whats the point. I get the historical signifigance but for a small country, its getting outdated. I mean unless they were a huge economic engine, then i'd re-look at the issue. All I'm saying is, I'll be supporting the first question to be asked, and supporting a Republic. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:48, July 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * I disagree completely you clearly have no idea how tourism works, according to your logic no one would be interested in Lovia because there are other places with similar things, but it's probably because you're so vehemently against monarchy that you think what you do rather than because of any logical reasons. And look at the budget buddy, once again I'm proving you wrong, we do have one: User:TimeMaster/Finance, and there's no budgeted money for the monarch there nor in the law, we do not give them anything! and when was the last time we had a royal parade? never! exactly, they are a positive for our economy not a negative. Let's line this out:
 * We give no money to the Monarchy, it's a unique tourist attraction that adds to Lovia's tourist pull - Economic Benefit
 * The Monarchy has no power, they are a figurehead that is above politics and a unifying figure - Political benefit
 * The Monarchy have added to the culture and history of Lovia, taking them away would detract from it - Cultural Benefit
 * The Monarchy manages their own finances and owns corporations and pays their own way such as Walker Inc that helped build up Lovia's economy, out of respect for what the Monarchy has done for Lovia, why cast them aside? we need them more than they need us, if we were to remove them all that would happen is Lovia would cease to be a monarchy, we'd lose some tourism and therefore our economy would shrink slightly and everything pertaining to Monarchy would be removed. Not saying we couldn't come back from it but you're setting the wikia back year or more in terms of content too, we'd have to fill the cultural hole that would be left and pretending it is small is wearing blinkers. Hoffmann LogoCNP2.png Kunarian TALK 14:37, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Again you make insane over dramatizations, its what your good at. I never said anyone wouldn't go to somewhere with similar things, yeah I remember the whole Hotel argument, it doesn't fly. You go somewhere because you want to go, and people will usually go to most well known landmark, if I can make an equally over dramatization of a statement of yours, i'd say that you believed that each landmark gets equal tourists, so the Monaco Monarchy and the British Monarchy generate the same okay then, just because ya know the people of Monaco believe they have the best Monarchy. And look at the real world buddy, I'm proving you wrong! Monarchies cost money, just because in this world you believe they don't, doesn't mean that they aren't. If it's not in TM's budget then the world must follow suit, no. Monarchies are paid through tax dollars, if he didn't put it in then that's a mistake it should be corrected. Well thats again another point on how alot of members believe we can do unrealistic things, there would of course be parades, events, and ceremonies, like any real world Monarchy. Unless the Lovian one just doesn't do that any stays in everyday and there is no pomp and circumstance. But again let's line this out:


 * (Oh look i'm using bold as well!) We would have to give money to the Monarchy, if we don't then thats just one more unrealistic thing, and it should be changed. The tourism dollars would be less than what we would put in, a bad investment. For a small nation like ours and the fact that, if we are going by our current situation, we don't even take in tax dollars, and then realistically if we go by by your standards of low taxation, it would barley pay for them.
 * Unifying figure? Was it not just a few years ago when a civil war broke out? Where was that figure then? I don't remember it, in fact you were on the rebels side trying to over throw it. So excuse me if I laugh at that one.
 * What ever the need for the Monarchy was in the past its done now. We don't need these unelected figures. The cultural benefit is questioned, they have art galleries and such but those are maintained by the state, and even if the Monarchy was abolished the state would still take care of those. Taking it away wouldn't, It could be a symbol of the past and where the King use to live. Would add more culture and history too it.
 * ​Walker Inc. goes to the King's purse not for its upkeep, never does it state its for the upkeep or pays the Monarchies dues, just actually his bank. Walker Inc. controlled 90% by him, has a small bus line,  makes a few trains and those that are made I guess are used for the PRC (okay profitable, but its going to King Dimi not to pay for it), and like Air Lovia, some of those are state owned. Again I can't even tell if these is a joke, or another gross overreach, but its not like all of a sudden like 80% of lovian culture is based on the Monarhcy. I'm pretty sure the unique culture in Novosevensk, Adoha, Hurbanova, Newhaven, depends on it. There are still great places in NC like artista and bayside, still great tourist attractions. I don't know if your saying that I suggested to remove it from history entirely and would have to delete it, but I never said that, just making that clear. We already have history and culture elsewhere, and this like any moment would create more history, to abolish the Monarchy. But apparently without it we are dumb to think we even have any culture and to think such a thing we'd be "wearing blinkers"! Ooookay then, well again i'll be going to the entertainment districts and beaches in Adoha and Sofasi, the economic and lovian historical sites in Pool, the russian culture in Novo, the unique religious history in Amish Kinley, and the fully developed language of Oceana and tell them all, your culture isn't anything compared to the Monarchy, or even of worth if there is no Monarchy. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:03, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Marcus, I'm actually fed up with trying to debate with you. The Monarchy is relevant to Lovia's economy, culture and politics. If you click random page 10 times you will almost 100% guaranteed find a link to the current Monarch or something closely relavent to the Monarchy as a whole, therefore it is completely relevant. At least if I was talking to a reasonable person who was pro-Republican such as Topaz they would understand the positives of having a Monarchy, although I understand in his beliefs they do not outweigh the negatives. And if you are going to pretend that the Monarchy is nothing to the culture of Lovia then you clearly spend more time coming up with rebrands for Labour than you do actually reading the pages on this site. Hoffmann LogoCNP2.png Kunarian TALK 16:17, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Alright then, Leo Fuster, Free Society, Philip Eastwood, 1908, Harvian Islands, Heart2Heart, Murder of Maarten Dolmatoff, Rockafellow, The Share Home, N-Television, Quarry Museum, Sofasi Railway Station. Emerald Bakery, The Pale, Three agents, Zhoosh, Candles & Candles, and finally at random page hit number 18 i got a company privately owned by Prince Alexander Springles, which he is planing to leave and would again go directly to his bank account to, not to pay for the Monarchy it's self. I do get the positives, being with an unchangeable Head of State, that like during Britain under WWII doesn't change or have the possibility. The differences between the two cultural and historically must be admitted that both weigh towards the more historical. And again i've weighed the two, the negatives are greater than the positives. And thanks for the true colors to show with an attack on the UL, glad to see your still on that. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:33, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Marcus, you have only proved me right. 1908, the fourth on your list has a link to Princess Manon of Lovia, Harvian Islands links to Dimitri I! OUR CURRENT MONARCH, Heart2Heart has Dimitri named on the page, Murder of Maarten Dolmatoff links to King Arthur II of Lovia! Rockafellow is part of Founders Inc. a corporation partly owned by the Monarch, The Pale (as learned Lovian historians know) is the area of land before the formation of Lovia that the Monarchy directly ruled and had authority over, Candles & Candles also has a direct link to our current Monarch. Please read the wikia more! And do remind me of the negatives, give me a quick lists. And true colours? what opposed to the idea of a big tent party as radically left as UL? true, I fear I might be showing my opposition. Hoffmann LogoCNP2.png Kunarian TALK 17:13, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

If I might give my opinion on this. I seriously doubt that the monarchy is a highlight of Lovia. For the main reason that it doesn't really have the likability other monarchies have (especially not after the Hurbanova Crisis...). However, abolition will not only cost "money", it will be a pain in the ass to regulate this. Updating several pages, and with the only benifit of ... (read: nothing :P) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:40, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that some do not feel it is, for various reasons but your last two points are the main reasons I feel everyone can understand concerning why abolition of the monarchy is not a good idea. Hoffmann LogoCNP2.png Kunarian TALK 17:13, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * So let us then take this neccesary evil, Oos, and turn it to our nation's advantage. I shall make Lovia feel proud to be a monarchy once again and instil in many a young heart a true and honest love for their country and it's rich and vibrant culture. As the Dutch would say: "baat het niet, dan schaadt het niet". We have this monarchy now, whether we like it or not. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 17:10, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * TMV is right, there are many more possibilities to enrich Lovia with a Monarchy than without especially with someone as well versed in Lovia as he and as proud of the nation as he. Hoffmann LogoCNP2.png Kunarian TALK 17:13, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * So, why don't we give it a vote then è? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:46, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Put it too the second chamber comrades, the people request a vote! :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:49, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

021. Congressmen Payment Act

 * 1) Each Congressman that is elected will receive 4,075 Lovian Dollars per month during that Congressman's term.
 * 2) If a Congressman does not vote on at least three-fourths of the bills or motions proposed in the Second Chamber, the pay of that congressman is halved for that year
 * 3) A Congressman receives pay until be supplemented with another job or revenue resource, up to 150,000 dollars.
 * 4) Once a Congressman receives outside revenue or pay of up to 150,000, the congressman will receive no pay from the state
 * 5) To make sure those Congressmen do not receive payment starting with the 2014 Congress, members will put a (NP) or "No Payment" to receive no state pay. If Congressmen wish to receive payment up to 150,000 with a supplement from the state, one should report it to the Minister of Finance before his yearly budget.
 * 6) Those that fail to mark correctly, or falsely report payment that Congressman will be banned from Congress for three months and receive no payment for the rest of the year.

I don't know if this act is needed but we certainly have a large number of Congressmen who are multi-millionaires and don't need payment at all. Again IRL we don't pay Congressmen so we need to allow workers and other middle class people to run with some payment. Congressmen will receive payment up to where it is supplemented with 150,000. Example: Yearly salary with no penalties: 48,900. So lets say that Congressmen works for another company and earns 130,000, he should report that he will only receive 20,000 from the state. Or can even deny the state pay if he or she feels fit, its up to you. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:42, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

The current (unofficial) salary in the budget is just $50,000. I think that it would be a lot easier to just have that salary that's the same for everyone (also, job income is not the only income either, there are also investments, gifts, etc.) except congressmen that refuse it. Then, in the elections, congressors who don't need the money but accept it can be slammed in advertisements. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:01, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

022. Educational reform
We succeeded in giving more power to the states, but one big CCPL point still has not been achieved: educational reform.

In the light of more power to the states, I believe we can solve this quite easily. Add a provision to the Primary and Secondary Education Act that enables states to set up their own regulations concerning special needs and religious education. Of course, these regulations should still be in line with the regulations mentioned in the Federal Law. And: in case a state goes too far, we still have our rule: Congress may override a state's decision :)

By giving the states the possibility to create their own regulations, fit for the uniqueness within their state (f.e. Russian language education in Seven, or Catholic education in Oceana), we also avoid needless discussions, like we usually do concerning this kind of law :P

In addition, a rule will be implemented that regular, "federal" education should be available in all states as well.

Changes in bold.


 * Article 6 - Primary Education Act
 * Primary education is the educating of children in a school or privately, by qualified teachers, in order to provide them with the apt knowledge and skills to go to secondary education.
 * Primary education is provided in primary or elementary schools, unless the child is taught privately.
 * Primary schools can be operated privately, that is by an individual or an organization, or publicly, that is by a neighborhood, hamlet, town, city, state or by the federal state.
 * Primary schools have to appoint teachers that are qualified to teach the subjects they are asked to teach.
 * All primary school teachers must have obtained a single Lovian Certificate of Education Level 2 or above or a Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education Level 2 or above.
 * Primary schools can turn down pupils only in special cases, these being the inability to provide education to a pupil with a particular problem, the inability to properly provide education for a pupil due to a lack of resources or if a pupil has proven to be unable to behave according to previous schools '  regulations. In no other cases, pupils shall be denied access without consultation with the Ministry of Education.
 * Primary schools provide general and basic education to a child. All subjects taught must be Lovian Certificates of Education and may not be Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education.
 * These subjects should be taught at least three hours per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * English (level 1)
 * Mathematics (level 1)
 * Arts and Crafts (level 1)
 * These subjects should be taught at least two hours per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * Physical Education (level 1)
 * Social Education (level 1)
 * The school must also choose a level 1 language subject to provide other than English that must be taught at least two hours a week, from a list which the State Government will provide.
 * These subjects should be taught at least one hour per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * History (level 1)
 * Geography (level 1)
 * Science (level 1)
 * Computing (level 1)
 * Primary schools may also provide more languages than the two mandatory subjects to pupils. The specific additional languages a pupil is taught however will be selected by the pupil themselves from the list of additional languages the school provides beyond the two mandatory language subjects.
 * Primary schools are free to choose to provide more classes of any of these subjects, or to provide other level 1 subjects considered valuable, in order to provide a minimum of twenty-two hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Primary schools may provide more classes beyond the twenty-two hour minimum but none beyond the maximum of thirty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * There shall be no doctrinal classes in primary schools.
 * In a course called 'Religions of the world', children may be taught about religions. If the school wishes to teach this subject, all major religions should be brought to attention, as well as a non-religious attitude.
 * Primary schools and their teachers may not try to convince children of a certain religious or political point of view, nor can they make any pupil exercise a religious act, unless the pupil and/or the parents agree with taking doctrinal classes.
 * These rules apply for the arrangement of the timetable:
 * A break of at least 10 minutes is compulsory between every two hours; more often is allowed.
 * There shall be no classes on Sunday.
 * There shall be no classes between 7 PM and 7 AM.
 * There must be a lunch break every day, of at least an hour, between noon and 2 PM.
 * Private education, by a qualified teacher, can be provided. In this case, the same rules apply.
 * Every child residing in Lovia has to receive six years of primary education, beginning in the schoolyear during which the child will reach the age of 6 years.
 * Only if a qualified psychologist and the pupil's teacher find it appropriate for the pupil to skip a schoolyear and continue education with older pupils, and if the parents agree on this, the pupil may skip a schoolyear.
 * Every pupil has to receive primary education until the schoolyear during which the pupil will reach the age of 12, except in the case mentioned above.
 * In case a primary school does not provide the kind of education described in this article, the Minister of Education or the Royal Educational Aims Council can decide to shut down the school until the service provided does qualify. In the meantime, the Ministry of Education must provide education to the pupils of that school, by allowing them instant pro-tempore access to another school.
 * The Royal Educational Aims Council is a council under the Ministry of Education, consisting of three educational specialists who decide on the secondary education curriculum, and who can close a school (of any level) if it does not qualify with the requirements.
 * The following three persons are members of the council: the Minister of Education, the Prime Minister, and the Minister of Labour as the pupils' and students' welfare watchdog.
 * The Rector of Blackburn University is added to the council as its fourth member only when the council is looking into a matter directly concerned with the higher educational system.
 * States are allowed to create legislation concerning special needs and religious education, and education in another language (special education).
 * The same rules apply to special education as to regular institutions.
 * Regular education must always remain available to pupils.
 * All settlements with more than 5,000 inhabitants must have at least one regular primary school.
 * A state must always have at least one regular primary school.
 * All primary schools within Lovia are funded by a School Voucher system.
 * A School Voucher system operates via a system of grants from the Ministry of Education to a parent for each child they have at the age of primary education to pay for their child's tuition within Lovia.
 * Parents are granted an amount towards each child's education, this grant is not given to the parents instead the Ministry of Education must create documents that shall be used to register where their child is currently receiving tuition so that the grant may be given directly to their child's school.
 * The current grant per child is L$11,000.
 * These documents must be simple, easy to understand and must not be misleading, there must also be a way to trace who filled in the documents.
 * To obtain the grant, at least one parent must be a Lovian citizen.
 * Parents wealthy enough to make tuition provisions for their child without state assistance should do so.
 * Parents earning over L$100,000 collectively will only be entitled to half of the grant.
 * Parents earning over L$250,000 collectively will not be entitled to any of the grant.
 * Primary schools may not charge a tuition that is higher than the grant.
 * Primary schools must register certain details in a primary school register.
 * A primary school must register:
 * Their name.
 * The address of the school.
 * The number of pupils they are currently teaching a primary education to.
 * The number of teachers they are currently employing to teach primary education.
 * The tuition fee the school is charging per child in primary education.
 * The date of registration.
 * These registers are managed on a state by state basis by the relevant state government.
 * Further details may be requested by the state government.
 * The details must be renewed every half-year since the date of registration.
 * If they are not renewed then the school shall be given a weeks grace period to fill in the details along with a notification from the state government, if it fails to renew details after the grace period then it is no longer considered able to provide education to students and must be shut down until it renews the details. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide education to the students of that school.
 * Only primary schools that are registered in the primary school register may be considered primary schools by law.
 * An illegality may be committed if any of the following occur:
 * Illegalities can be punished...
 * Illegalities can be punished...


 * Article 7 - Secondary Education Act
 * Secondary education is the educating of adolescents in a school or privately, by qualified teachers, in order to provide them with the apt knowledge and skills to lead a life in a modern society and in order to be able to continue studying in university or take on an apprenticeship.
 * After having completed the schoolyear of their 16th birthday a child may choose to not continue ordinary school and instead pursue an apprenticeship, should they secure an apprenticeship then they may continue their education under their employer as an apprentice, if they at any point lose their apprenticeship they must at the soonest possible date rejoin a school.
 * Secondary education is provided in high schools or secondary schools, unless the adolescent is taught privately.
 * Secondary schools can be operated privately, that is by an individual or an organization, or publicly, that is by a neighborhood, hamlet, town, city, state or by the federal state.
 * Secondary schools have to appoint teachers that are qualified to teach the subjects they are asked to teach.
 * All secondary school teachers must have obtained a single Lovian Certificate of Education Level 4 or above or a Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education Level 4 or above.
 * Secondary schools can turn down pupils only in special cases, these being the inability to provide education to a pupil with a particular problem, the inability to properly provide education for a pupil due to a lack of resources or if a pupil has proven to be unable to behave according to previous schools '  regulations. In no other cases, pupils shall be denied access without consultation with the Ministry of Education.
 * Secondary schools provide two tiers of education, one to a child from the age of 12 until 16 and another to a child of the ages of 17 and 18 should the child choose to continue in school:
 * Secondary schools provide a general education to a child up until the age of 16. All subjects taught must be Lovian Certificates of Education and may not be Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education.
 * These subjects should be taught at least four hours per week, during the first four years of secondary education:
 * Mathematics (level 2)
 * These subjects should be taught at least two hours per week, during the first four years of secondary education:
 * English (level 2)
 * Literature (level 2)
 * Art (level 2)
 * Physical Education (level 2)
 * Social Education (level 2)
 * Technology (level 2)
 * Science (level 2)
 * The school must also choose a level 2 language subject to provide other than English that must be taught at least two hours a week, from a list which the State Government will provide.
 * These subjects should be taught at least one hour per week, during the first four years of secondary education:
 * History (level 2)
 * Geography (level 2)
 * Computing (level 2)
 * Secondary schools may also provide more languages than the two mandatory subjects to pupils between the ages of 12 and 16. The specific additional languages a pupil is taught however will be selected by the pupil themselves from the list of additional languages the school provides beyond the two mandatory language subjects.
 * Secondary schools are free to choose to provide more classes of any of these subjects, or to provide other level 2 subjects considered valuable, in order to provide a minimum of thirty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Secondary schools may provide more classes beyond the thirty hour minimum but none beyond the maximum of forty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * Secondary schools provide an advanced education to a child of the age of 17 and 18. All subjects taught must be Lovian Certificates of Education and may not be Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education.
 * These subjects should be taught at least five hours per week, during the last two years of secondary education:
 * English (level 3)
 * Mathematics (level 3)
 * The school must also choose a level 3 language subject to provide other than English that must be taught at least five hours a week, from a list which the State Government will provide.
 * Secondary schools must provide a wide selection of level 3 subjects for pupils to choose from to study. Pupils may choose to study a minimum of three extra subjects to study to bring their total time within school to 30 hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Pupils may choose to study two more subjects beyond the thirty hour minimum, bringing their total time within school to 40 hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * Each additional subject a pupil chooses to study must be taught for five hours each week.
 * Doctrinal classes may be provided in secondary schools by the school itself, if wished.
 * There shall be no more than one hour of doctrinal class per week.
 * The content of doctrinal classes, in which the teacher teaches a particular religious or political world view, can be chosen by the school and teacher.
 * There shall be no doctrinal classes about extremist views; that is: no far-right, far-left, extremist religious, violent or extreme nationalist views can be taught. If needed, the Royal Educational Aims Council and the Minister of Education can dismiss a doctrinal course.
 * A student is allowed not to follow a doctrinal course provided by a secondary school, if he or she does not want to take this course. In order to skip these classes, the student has to notify the school direction and stay on school property during the courses.
 * A course called 'Religions of the world', or any course similar to it, is not considered a doctrinal course.
 * No tests and exams shall be taken for these courses.
 * These rules apply for the arrangement of the timetable:
 * A break of at least 10 minutes is compulsory between every two hours; more often is allowed.
 * There shall be no classes on Sunday.
 * There shall be no classes between 7 PM and 7 AM.
 * There must be a lunch break every day, of at least an hour, between noon and 2 PM.
 * Private education, by a qualified teacher, can be provided. In this case, the same rules apply.
 * Every child residing in Lovia has to receive at least four years of secondary education, beginning in the schoolyear after which the adolescent has finished his primary education successfully. Additionally should a child not be employed as an apprentice, they must continue to receive education until they have completed the educational year in which they are 18.
 * Only if a qualified psychologist and the student's teacher find it appropriate for the student to skip a schoolyear and continue education with older students, and if the parents agree on this, the student may skip a schoolyear.
 * Secondary schools that do not provide the kind of education described in this article, the Minister of Education or the Royal Educational Aims Council can decide to shut down the school until the service provided do qualify. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide education to the students of that school.
 * States are allowed to create legislation concerning special needs and religious education, and education in another language (special education).
 * The same rules apply to special education as to regular institutions.
 * Regular education must always remain available to pupils.
 * All settlements with more than 10,000 inhabitants must have at least one regular secondary school.
 * A state must always have at least one regular secondary school.
 * All secondary schools within Lovia are funded by a School Voucher system.
 * A School Voucher system operates via a system of grants from the Ministry of Education to a parent for each child they have at the age of secondary education to pay for their child's tuition within Lovia.
 * Parents are granted an amount towards each child's education, this grant is not given to the parents instead the Ministry of Education must create documents that shall be used to register where their child is currently receiving tuition so that the grant may be given directly to their child's school.
 * The current grant per child is L$15,000.
 * These documents must be simple, easy to understand and must not be misleading, there must also be a way to trace who filled in the documents.
 * To obtain the grant, at least one parent must be a Lovian citizen.
 * Parents wealthy enough to make tuition provisions for their child without state assistance should do so.
 * Parents earning over L$100,000 collectively will only be entitled to half of the grant.
 * Parents earning over L$250,000 collectively will not be entitled to any of the grant.
 * Secondary schools may not charge a tuition that is higher than the grant.
 * Secondary schools must register certain details in a secondary school register.
 * A secondary school must register:
 * Their name.
 * The address of the school.
 * The number of pupils they are currently teaching a secondary education to.
 * The number of teachers they are currently employing to teach secondary education.
 * The tuition fee the school is charging per child in secondary education.
 * The date of registration.
 * These registers are managed on a state by state basis by the relevant state government.
 * Further details may be requested by the state government.
 * The details must be renewed every half-year since the date of registration.
 * If they are not renewed then the school shall be given a weeks grace period to fill in the details along with a notification from the state government, if it fails to renew details after the grace period then it is no longer considered able to provide education to students and must be shut down until it renews the details. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide education to the students of that school.
 * Only secondary schools that are registered in the secondary school register may be considered secondary schools by law.
 * An illegality may be committed if any of the following occur:
 * Illegalities can be punished...
 * Illegalities can be punished...


 * Article 12 - Educational Boards Act
 * An educational board is a registered organisation that creates curriculum's for schools and is responsible for the testing, examination and marking of the students learning their curriculum's and then the distribution of the results. They are also granted the power to award Lovian Certificates of Education (LCE) and Supplimentary Lovian Certificates of Education (SLCE) to students.
 * Educational boards may award LCE's and SLCE's to students with an assigned grade attached to the certificate.
 * A Lovian Certificate of Education is a full course in a subject, ensuring that the student learning the curriculum related to the LCE understands the full knowledge of the subject over the full time of the educational level it is at.
 * Grades assigned to LCE's are related to the percentage achieved in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * Pass grades are as follows:
 * A*, which is awarded should a student get 95% or above in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * A, which is awarded should a student get 90% or above and below 95% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * B, which is awarded should a student get 80% or above and below 90% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * C, which is awarded should a student get 70% or above and below 80% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * D, which is awarded should a student get 60% or above and below 70% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * E, which is awarded should a student get 50% or above and below 60% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * Fail grades are as follows:
 * F, which is awarded should a student get 40% or above and below 50% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * U, which is awarded should a student get below 40% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * When a student fails they receive a letter with their fail grade and their percentage achieved in various exams and tests in order to help them understand and improve for the future rather than an LCE.
 * A Supplimentary Lovian Certificate of Education is a short course in a subject, ensuring that the student learning the curriculum related to the SLCE understands the basic and general knowledge of the subject but does so over a quarter of the time of the full course.
 * Grades assigned to SLCE's are related to the percentage achieved.
 * Pass grades are as follows:
 * A*, which is awarded should a student get 97.5% or above in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * A, which is awarded should a student get 95% or above and below 97.5% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * B, which is awarded should a student get 90% or above and below 95% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * C, which is awarded should a student get 85% or above and below 90% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * D, which is awarded should a student get 80% or above and below 85% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * E, which is awarded should a student get 75% or above and below 80% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * Fail grades are as follows:
 * F, which is awarded should a student get 70% or above and below 85% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * U, which is awarded should a student get below 70% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the course.
 * When a student fails they receive a letter with their fail grade and their percentage achieved in various exams and tests in order to help them understand and improve for the future rather than an SLCE.
 * Subjects will be provided at various levels by Educational Boards. Subjects can either be defined by law or by certain governmental institutions.
 * Level 1 subjects are aimed at giving a wide and basic education, in cases where the subject is applicable to needing to teach using resources that might concern the state, nation and world, examples and resources concerning all three of these should be used. These are aimed to be taught in primary school by a person with at least a level 2 qualification to children aged 6-12, over the course of 6 years.
 * Level 2 subjects are aimed at giving a general and advanced education, in cases where the subject is applicable to needing to teach using resources that might concern the state, nation and world, examples and resources concerning only two or all three should be used. These are aimed to be taught in secondary school by a person with at least a level 4 qualification to adolescents aged 12-16, over the course of 4 years.
 * Level 3 subjects are aimed at giving a focused and advanced education, in cases where the subject is applicable to needing to teach using resources that might concern the state, nation and world, examples and resources concerning only one, two or all three may be used. These are aimed to be taught in secondary school by a person with at least a level 4 qualification to adolescents aged 16-18, over the course of 2 years.
 * Level 4 subjects are aimed at giving a highly focused and advanced education, the aim of this education should be to prepare the student for a career in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 5 qualification to adults aged 18-21, over the course of 3 years.
 * Level 5 subjects are aimed at building on a persons focused and advanced education, the aim of this education should be to advance the students knowledge further in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 6 qualification to adults aged 21 and over.
 * Level 6 subjects are aimed at further building on a persons focused and advanced education, the aim of this education should be to advance the students knowledge further in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 7 qualification to adults aged 21 and over.
 * Level 7 subjects are aimed at building on a persons focused and advanced education at an experimental level, the aim of this education should be to advance the students knowledge further in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 7 qualification to adults aged 21 and over.
 * Subjects that educational boards may provide at specific levels are any of those defined in law and those recognised by state governments on a state by state basis with the advice of the Ministry of Education.
 * Additionally the Ministry of Education may recognise subjects nationally with advice from Congress.
 * Provisions for examinations and tests to acquire LCE's Educational boards must provide tests, examinations or coursework or a combination of those for students to complete as part of a course to act as proof that they understand the full knowledge of the subject.
 * Educational boards may not refuse to provide a tutor, school or university access to a course unless it does not have the proper resources to administrate the course.
 * Educational boards may charge no more than L$20 per student per course and must charge the same rate for all courses it provides.
 * Educational boards must register certain details in an educational board register.
 * An educational board must register:
 * Their name.
 * The address of the educational board.
 * The number of courses they are currently offering.
 * The number of schools using the courses they are offering.
 * The fee the educational board is charging per student per course.
 * The date of registration.
 * These registers are managed on a state by state basis by the relevant state government.
 * Further details may be requested by the state government.
 * The details must be renewed every half-year since the date of registration.
 * If they are not renewed then the educational board shall be given a weeks grace period to fill in the details along with a notification from the state government, if it fails to renew details after the grace period then it is no longer considered able to provide courses and correct administration of said courses it may be shut down until it renews the details. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide support to the schools using courses from the educational board that has been shut down.
 * Only Educational boards that are registered in the educational board register may be considered educational boards by law.
 * An illegality may be committed if any of the following occur:
 * Illegalities can be punished...
 * Illegalities can be punished...


 * Article 13 - Apprenticeships Act
 * Define an apprenticeship
 * Define a Lovian Certificate of Apprenticeship
 * What levels and apprenticeships there are and provisions for the Ministry of Commerce to validate further apprenticeships with advice
 * Provisions for tests, examinations or coursework to acquire LCA's
 * Apprenticeship employees
 * Apprenticeship employers (similar to article 7 - 2)
 * What must be provided in an Apprenticeship (similar to article 7 - 3)
 * Apprenticeship grants for private employers
 * An illegality may be committed if any of the following occur:
 * Illegalities can be punished...
 * Illegalities can be punished...

Changes
I'm gonna be precise for once :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:57, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * (6-2.2.3) Added to the clause after agreed changes, changes requirements to be a teacher - Kunarian
 * (6-2.3) Changed regulations on refusing students - Kunarian
 * (6-3) Changed subjects to fit in with new Lovian Certificate of Education system - Kunarian
 * (6-3.3) Oceana and Bredish are separate languages and as such they do not fall under Lovian dialects. Fixed by adding them. solved by the above change - Kunarian
 * (6-3.4) inserted clause to accommodate Oos's suggestion, allows more subjects to be offered from which the pupil will choose. - Kunarian
 * (6-3.6.2) Only mentioning religious indoctrination is way too short-sighted. Added political indoctrination as well.
 * (6-7) Added a comma, and changed meanwhile into meantime, just cuz it sounds better :P
 * (6-8) States can now create fitting legislation on special education.
 * (6-9) Primary schools are now all funded via a School Voucher system which eliminates wealth as a factor - Kunarian
 * (7-2.2.3) Added to the clause after agreed changes, changes requirements to be a teacher - Kunarian
 * (7-2.3) Changed regulations on refusing students - Kunarian
 * (7-3.3.2.1) This way, extremist Buddhist teachings etc. is illegal as well. No need to treat Islam and Christianity separate from other religions. Additionally removed fascist.
 * (7-3.3.3) doesn't > does not.
 * (7-8) see (6-8)
 * (7-9) Secondary schools are now all funded via a School Voucher system which eliminates wealth as a factor

Concerning Article 12 (this will be simple explanations of what I'm writing here) Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 07:10, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * (12-) To be done once I start writing in actual detail

Additions:
 * (6-3.3) As these languages are all spoken in Lovia, with a considerable number of speakers, I changed it to "Languages of Lovia".
 * (6-3.5.2) fix wording to make it clearer.

Comments
Looks good. But I feel like there's a contradiction between the "no teaching children a religious/political POV" line and "states may make religious education possible". —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:28, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

The CNP would also like to see some reform therefore we shall be giving our full reply later today along with a suggestion of changes we feel should be made in addition to these. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 16:30, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

@TM: Not at all. Federal/regular Education is completely free of f.e. crosses above the door and praying. Read this sentence carefully: " Primary schools and their teachers may not try to convince children of a certain religious or political point of view, nor can they make any pupil exercise a religious act if not wanted by the pupil and/or the parents." If the pupil and/or parents agree, religious indoctrination is allowed. If the pupil is on a religious school, he and/or his parents agree with the "indoctrination" (otherwise they wouldn't send their children there), and thus it is allowed. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:34, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

Dammit Oos, I was just getting ready to open the Atheist-Socialist-All Praise Marx School for Regular Proletarian Children :/ You ruin everything :P Otherwise there isn't much controversy with the changes and other than what TM point out its fine...A question though, so states can allow private religious schools on a state-by-state basis. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:40, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

I suggest a small change be made, so it doesn't suggest that Oceana and Bredish are world languages. --Semyon 21:49, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe there is a subtle difference between "world languages" and "languages of the world". --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:38, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

I like this but I suggest that there are two separate language courses, these being...

Languages of the World- Introductions to French, Spanish, German, Chinese and Italian.

Languages of Lovia- Introductions to Oceana, Bredish and Russian

What do others think? Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 10:08, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Considering our demographics, introductions to Limburgish and Dutch are necessary. I understand the desire for some big languages, such as Chinese and German, to be taughed, but I also believe schools have plenty of room for that in the "free time" :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:33, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. How about...

Languages of the World- Introductions to French, Spanish, Chinese, Limburgish and Dutch

Languages of Lovia- Introductions to Oceana, Bredish and Russian

My previous suggestion was only a vague idea Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 10:44, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, I believe we can add this if nobody opposes it :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:49, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Personally I feel that States should be given more choice on these matters. For instance the Main Primary Languages in Sylvania are English and Dutch with main Secondary Languages being French and German. Almost communities speak one of these as their main language and so really English, Dutch, French and German are languages of Sylvania, in Sylvania I'd like it if English was required as a first or second language for all while Dutch, French, German and Oceana (due to Oceana slovak settlements on the Beaver River) were required as second languages in Sylvania. Our state is very multi-lingual and I'd like it if we were given more freedom to continue being so. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 11:41, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * We could simply create a course called "Languages" with mandatory introductions to Oceana, Dutch, and a free choice area for three plus languages. As well as a mandatory, separate English course. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:53, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm about to post my whole truck of ideas, so give me a moment, I had the same kind of idea. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 12:32, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Personally I'd like to propose these ideas: These are ideas currently dealing mainly with Primary Education. I have further ideas to do with Secondary Education to present. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 14:24, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * The changing of the wording of current legislation so that we operate via a School Voucher system which eliminates wealth as a factor in education creating true equality of education. This system would mean granting parents an amount of money to fund each child's education (this money would directly fund their child's education and would never enter the parents hands so would not be used for other things). This grant would also cover transport costs to a certain extent.
 * Or we devolve educational funding down to the States so that each State may decide how it funds the education of their children.
 * We change the wording of the act to make provisions so that we have educational boards (exam boards), which will be recognised by the Minister of Education, that will provide the curriculum for subjects. This way we can truly ensure that children are being taught correctly, exams will help give parents a measure of how well their child is being taught and will help give a universally recognised way of judging the educational levels of a child.
 * Or we do all of this but make it so that States recognise educational boards.
 * We make changes so that the primary subjects are as follows: (also remember that these will be the common names of subjects that will be provided by educational boards, schools will be free to choose which educational board's curriculum they use, all primary school subjects will be considered level 1 educational subjects)
 * Three hours a week subjects:
 * English (level 1)
 * Mathematics (level 1)
 * Arts and Crafts (level 1)
 * Two hours a week subjects:
 * Physical Education (level 1)
 * Citizenship (level 1)
 * Another language of the schools choice from a states list of primary languages (level 1) (need a way to shorten this bit)
 * One hour a week subjects:
 * History (level 1)
 * Geography (level 1)
 * Science (level 1)
 * Computing (level 1)
 * Primary schools are free to choose to provide more classes of any of these subjects, or to provide other level 1 subjects, in order to provide a minimum of twenty-two hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Schools may provide more subjects beyond the minimum twenty-two hours but may provide no more than twenty-five hours of mandatory class every week of the schoolyear.
 * We change the regulations under which a school may refuse a pupil access to their school, first being that a pupil may be refused access to the school should the school consider itself unable to provide proper education due to a lack of resources (this can mean a lack of staff, space and such, stops schools from being overcrowded because they can't refuse access) and add in "previous school's regulations" instead of "school regulations".
 * I also suggest that we allow teachers that have experience to teach, teach by taking a wide assessment that can last up to two weeks.
 * I also suggest we remove fascist unless we also insert communist.
 * My reaction to the proposed changes:
 * School voucher system: Though I'd prefer to keep this centralized for now.
 * Education boards by the States or federally
 * Primary subjects, I propose a few changes:
 * Citizenship > Social education (broader term, will also include the former subject Everyday Life/Health and Care)
 * Another language of the schools choice from a states list of primary languages > Second language (?), also enable schools to provide multiple languages of which one is chosen by the pupil himself.
 * twenty-five > twenty-seven, f.e. swimming courses and religion might take up some time, and 27 hours is still 5,4 hours average per day, which I consider to be not much, compared to the 7-8 hours average in Dutch education.
 * Regulations change
 * Wide assessment: OWTB does not understand this :(
 * Remove fascism/add communism Both terms are covered with far-right and far-left I guess.
 * --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:52, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay so do you want me to help write in implementations of the Federal School Voucher system, Educational Boards (done by states in co-operation with the Ministry of Education?) and Subjects?
 * On the names of Subjects I agree but concerning second language we should put something like "Schools must also choose another level 1 language subject to teach pupils from a list provided by the state" so that Oceana may prioritise Oceana, Sylvania may prioritise it's main languages and Bredish in Clymene and so on and so forth.
 * Also if you're up for further increasing the school day I think that 30 hours a week maximum isn't bad.
 * Further when I said wide assessment I mean a general assessment of a teachers abilities and skills as well as their behaviour so that we can fully ascertain that they truly posses the skills to be a teacher without having a qualification. This could be replaced by having a short course of 3 months in a Lovian University be an allowable way for experienced teachers to gain the right to teach in school without a full qualification.
 * Glad you agree on the last bit. I'll add in my thoughts on Secondary school soon. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 15:41, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * @writing: sure; @language: Well, if states get to write educational bills, I'm pretty sure Oceana will be a separate mandatory subject in the state. @30 hours: the more education, the better :) @assessment:  --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:47, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Kunarian about letting states choose the languages studied. I also agree that schools are free to provide more level 1 classes. We could also look to creating an exam board to oversee the curriculum.

Below are a couple of my ideas on primary education.


 * Three hours a week....
 * English
 * Mathematics
 * Sciences (including basic introductions to biology, chemistry and physics)


 * Two hours a week....
 * Social Education (including Everyday Life, Citizenship and life skills such as cooking)
 * Arts and Crafts (including arts, drama and music)
 * Languages (a regional language, such as Oceana or Bredish, as chosen by the state as well as an introduction to a world language such as French, Spanish or Dutch)
 * Physical Education (including sport, fitness and swimming)
 * Social Studies (including study of both Lovian and world history, as well as study of world religions)
 * Computing

I don't think there should be any classes promoting any particular political or religious views, but instead children are given information from both sides of arguments, so they have the tools to form their own opinions.

Also, all this talk of education made me wonder, does Lovia have a school leaving certificate, similar to English A levels. If it does not, I believe we should introduce one that provides them with the skills nescessary for either continuing their education at university, or entering the world of work. We should call it something like the Lovian Certificate of Education, or LCE for short

--Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 15:52, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * @religious views: The entire idea of this change is mainly to allow religious education, if the parents/pupils agree (=choose for a religious school). Mainstream education, which you seem to prefer, will have to be available to all children as well. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:55, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

I think that religious education is fine, as long as it is with permission from parents/pupils and does not force extreme religious or political views upon children Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 16:11, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Frijoles: I don't think we should throw subjects together, I think it's important to keep things separate so that students get a more in depth education on that particular subject. Also I feel we shouldn't tell schools how to fill the minimum 22 hours of school as they would under the plans you have, but rather allow schools to manage their own affairs which I'm sure you can support as that allows them to add in other subjects if they wish and specialise more on subjects if they wish.
 * Also the different level subjects that I suggested would be a Lovian Certificate of Education or LCE as you've said just level 1, which is primary school level. Level 2 and 3 would be secondary school (with apprenticeships available at level 3 too). Level 4 and 5 would be university and other higher education.
 * Maybe I should write a separate act for educational boards and subjects and such? we'll get it passed as part of this reform. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:14, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Being such a large act it might be best to split it into different sections; would make it easier to take in and pass. Perhaps we could try and use one of the existing curriculums/timetables like the one used in Clymene or for other schools. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:21, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * So I'll get writing on an Act for educational boards. Also what do you mean about using existing curriculums/timetables like the one used in Clymene? Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:24, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

@Kunarian: Yes I completely agree that schools be given freedom in regards to curriculum and what subjects to teach. My ideas were just guidelines that schools could change if they wished. Also I was a bit confused about these levels but now I see what you mean and it all sounds good Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 16:30, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand what you were going for, we've done that already by giving a rigid base they must keep to but also by still giving them breathing space within the minimum they must supply so they can choose their own curriculum to a degree. And I'm glad we've sorted out the confusion, however you must be given credit I didn't know what to call the qualifications and now they shall be called Lovian Certificates of Education. :) Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:36, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks for using my suggestion for the name Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 16:44, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Under my calculations, this will only increase our budget by L$100,000,000 as Lower school education funding will be replaced by this system, however it is likely that a few students will have parents rich enough so that they pay personally for their child's education rather than the state, so we will probably under shoot my target. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 07:10, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Should we also add in illegality punishments so that we can be more clear cut on what happens when you break the law? Also I've started the skeletal structure of the Educational Boards Act, it'll detail the basic subjects on which the Ministry of Education can build. I'm going to look at Timemasters ideas now to get a better idea of what we're going for. Also I've added in another bit onto the refusing pupils access bit so that in other cases you can go to the Ministry of Education for help. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 07:10, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Your changes in the Primary/Secondary Act are all good :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:55, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * glad, I'm going to post my ideas for Secondary Education in a moment too. :) Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 09:30, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Kunarian has done some good work here! I've also got a few vague ideas about higher education that I might bring to the table Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 10:52, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

@Kunarian: I know you probably have lots of great ideas about the LCE, but allow me to suggest a couple of things. I suggest that the LCE is made up of these components, which I hope will give students both a firm grounding in core subjects, and other skills which will help them in higher education or the world of work.


 * Core subjects (Must be studied by all students taking the LCE)
 * English
 * Mathematics
 * Science
 * Language (either a Language of Lovia, such as Oceana or Bredish, or a Language of the World, such as Spanish, Chinese or Dutch)


 * Optional subjects
 * Students choose either three or four other subjects to study from a long list which includes subjects such as World Religions, Arts, History and Physical Education. They choose their optional subjects according to their interests and abilities. The decision is made a few months before they start their LCE's, after consultation with their teachers and parents.

So let me know what you think :) Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 11:09, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well Certificates of Education around the world are not made up of subjects. They ARE the subjects. What you're thinking about it the curriculum. Also to agree: English, Mathematics and Science are definitely going to be core in the secondary education. And after your suggestion I will add in the language additionally. Also to agree, extra subjects should be the child's choice in secondary education compared to primary education where it is largely chosen by the school. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 11:16, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Yes I know that the certificates are the subjects, I just meant how, with English GCSEs for example, all students have to take GCSEs in English, Maths and Science. Thanks for adding language by the way Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 11:33, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I don't like science for everybody.. We should keep the current profiles. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:45, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I propose we have two layers of secondary education:
 * The first years with mandatory subjects, such as English, another language, maths, science, biology, arts (incl. music etc).
 * The last years with more choice. F.e. still English and maths mandatory, but other subjects to be decided by the States.
 * --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:47, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I've only just seen your ideas, I'll make appropriate modifications to my starting ideas after I get back so that we can all have something to reference from. However the current ideas I've made are incomplete and I've made a mistake with languages I will correct. Though they are making the base for the three programs (which I do like btw, they give a bit more variance and freedom to schools). Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 11:52, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Ideas for secondary education: I'm not finished but I thought I'd post my ideas so far as I need to go somewhere for an hour or so, so that we can develop further. I think that Apprenticeships may need a further Act, I'm sorry if some people think I'm complicating things but I really feel we can make some real reforms here. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 11:48, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * First of all we divide Secondary education into two parts. The first part being from the age of 12-16 and the second part being from the age of 17-18. This will mean that children have to remain in school for the first part but may decide on whether to continue at school or get an apprenticeship in the second part. This is important because it allows a child to make the choice of going into employment early with a firm footing but still having had learned a strong curriculum, this system has proven to help lower youth unemployment and give people who simply do not do well at further education and university a chance of making their way in the world. Apprenticeships will mean learning by doing a job, so you learn a profession, the employer will also provide time for you to learn a basic Level 3 curriculum of probably Mathematics and English and maybe a little bit more although I feel that Maths and English is reasonable when you're also learning a career. When you finish an apprenticeship you're likely to be able to go for another (higher level) apprenticeship with the same employer or be employed. Also you get paid while on an apprenticeship, although it will be a reduced wage as the employer is also paying for the education of the child they are taking on.
 * Educational programmes should be changed to reflect the new division, as well as to reflect the new way in which the Ministry of Education will preside over subjects. This is the education for 12-16.
 * 12-16 Program
 * Four hours a week subjects:
 * Mathematics (level 2)
 * Two hours a week subjects:
 * English (level 2)
 * Literature (level 2)
 * Art (level 2)
 * Physical Education (level 2)
 * Social Education (level 2)
 * Technology (level 2)
 * Science (level 2)
 * The school must provide one of the languages from the list of languages provided by the State Government at level 2
 * One hours a week subjects:
 * History (level 2)
 * Geography (level 2)
 * Computing (level 2)
 * Secondary schools are free to choose to provide more classes of any of these subjects, or to provide other level 2 subjects considered valuable, in order to provide a minimum of thirty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Secondary schools may provide more classes beyond the thirty hour minimum but none beyond the maximum of fourty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * 17-18 Program
 * Five hours a week subjects:
 * English (level 3)
 * Mathematics (level 3)
 * The school must provide one of the languages from the list of languages provided by the State Government at level 3
 * Additional subjects must be taught for five hours a week each.
 * Secondary schools must provide a wide selection of level 3 subjects for pupils to choose from to study. Pupils may choose to study a minimum of three extra subjects to study to bring their total time within school to 30 hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Pupils may choose to study two more subjects beyond the thirty hour minimum, bringing their total time within school to 40 hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * This is the apprenticeship program for 17-18.
 * The apprenticeships are provided by public and private employers, the apprenticeship program is run by the Ministry of Commerce in co-operation with the Ministry of Education.
 * The current programs are too much based on sciences. We need at least the addition of an economics program and a culture/society program. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:04, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Will take advice and sort out a more general basic program. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 12:31, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Good work, here's my initial feedback.


 * I like...
 * That you've made two stages of education, 12-16 and 17-18
 * That you've written the curriculum so that children have a firm grounding in English and Maths, which I feel is very important


 * I don't like
 * That your plans mean that 12 year old children would have to choose between the Technical, Theoretical or Professional courses. Whilst this is a good idea, a child of 12 may be too young to choose which program they would like to take for the rest of their education.
 * I think there should be more room for History, Geography and Arts, particularly in the Theoretical Program

Anyway some good work, and I'm glad your putting so much work into this :D Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 12:16, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Children don't choose them, the school chooses a program to offer (or multiple) and their parents would chose the school or program at the school. In England almost all schools are theoretically based and so you may feel that this is the right way but we must offer freedom to schools in these programs. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 12:31, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Mmm.. That's what my two layer system is for. The children will be 15/16 when they choose a profile (f.e. economics or science). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:40, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I understand what you're getting at, shall we turn the programs into programs for the 17-18 years and then create a general program for 12-16? Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 12:49, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

@Kunarian: Yes, I wasn't doubting your system (which actually sounds great) I just think it would be more sensible to introduce those three programs when the children are say, 15 or 16, when they've had more time to think about what they would like to do in the future Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 12:53, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * @17-18/12-16: okay :P Though, I agree with Frijoles on the History/Geography part. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:55, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand about the History and Geography however in the 17-18 programs, it's students choice beyond the basic programs. However with 12-16 yes there will be mandatory History and Geography. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 13:04, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * We could make it very simple. Why not just make the 17/18 programs complete choice, with the exception of maths and English? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:18, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * True, if other people agree I am all for it. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 13:22, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

@Oos: I agree, but I'd rather it was complete choice with the exception of Maths, English, Language and possibly Science :)

@Kunarian: Are LCE's awarded at the age of 16 or 18? Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 13:31, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, science is not necessary if you are going to be working in business or culture. Besides, the pupils have had science until the age of 16, so the basics should be there already :) A language course however can be useful. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:35, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Oos: 17-18 is when specialisation begins to happen however Mathematics, English and the extra language are important to basic operating in Lovian society, as my changes reflect.
 * @Frijoles: You get level 1 LCEs at the age of 12 for your Primary school subjects, level 2 LCEs at the age of 16 for your early Secondary school subjects while level 3 LCEs you get at the age of 18. You must complete some sort of examination or test, whether this is one at the age of awarding certificates (such as 12 for your level 1 LCEs) or by a unit basic course similar to Btecs in the UK. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 13:44, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Kunar: that's what I said too :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:51, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Fantastic, I hope we're all in agreement then on the newly drawn up secondary education proposals? Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:37, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:45, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I've just added in the changes that complete the Secondary Act according to our agreements. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 16:02, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Excellent! Thanks for explaining, as it makes everything more clear and thanks as well for taking the time and effort to reform Lovian education for the better Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 16:30, August 21, 2013 (UTC) Just pointing out things that need clarification:
 * The bit about "parents agreeing to take doctrinal classes" so I can create the Marxist School for Gifted Comrades, just as long as the parents sending the children to the school agree? I mean would'nt the parents know before hand that the class is being offered anyway?
 * The part about voucher, can you explain this too me directly? I think in America we have a different meaning when stating school voucher it usually means when parents send there children to private school they want a "voucher" in return meaning "Well I dun payed meh tax dollars not to send meh childs to public skool so I deserve a voucher back." But that isn't what is going on here right? Also wouldn't public schools be free though, so why would they charge?
 * Thanks for the apprenticeships!
 * Overall great act! Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:36, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * You are not, marxism falls under far-left, and extremist doctrinal classes may not be given. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:42, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay:
 * No. and No. State schools are not free, originally they were funded with no direction directly by the government, now there's an actual process behind funding them. This is how we fund all schools in Lovia now so State schools are funded in the same way, per pupil. Technically if you think schools funded through taxes are free then every school in Lovia is now 'free'.
 * Thanks? well hey, someone had to get them done! :L
 * and thanks. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:35, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

OKAY! let me answer you Marcus in a moment. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 17:04, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

OOOH! attention, should we add in a School register so that we can keep track of things better? Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 19:01, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I thought I'd mention that Russian is a world language, not a Lovian language. :P Anyway, I still am not seeing the real benefit of school vouchers. I would prefer that children attended state schools (managed jointly by parents (boards), states, and fed. gov.), and if their parents don't want to, they will have to pay extra. Anyway, is the following correct for the proposal?: All students get a general education degree sort of thing after completing secondary school at 16, and then can either go for two more years for another degree, or do an apprenticeship, or something else. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:31, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * State schools aren't managed by parents (boards) at all though, some may be but it isn't required, maybe we should make provisions for schools to have to do so?
 * And on State Vouchers, why should people be penalised for not having money? That's the question. Why do you prefer people going to State schools anyways? I don't see how this affects this as if State schools are providing a better education then parents will send their children there. What I have a big problem is that parents with wealth have all the choice and don't have to worry about their child achieving because they can pay for the school that will suit their child best, whereas poorer families do not have the same due to lack of wealth. This reform would eliminate wealth as a barrier to a child's education which I'm sure is something you want to happen as well as me.
 * I'll put it here in my own words. All students receive a general education up until 16 and can go on for two more years for a more specialised education or they can do an apprenticeship. After the age of 18 they are free to leave school or do whatever. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 20:17, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're assuming state schools are not as good as private schools, but they are good because they aren't underfunded. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:51, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not assuming anything, and State schools are hardly underfunded around the world comparing £26,000 per child in the UK in state schools and £12,000 per child in the UK in private schools, you find similar trends around the world. Besides if the only reason you're opposing making education equal for all is because you feel I prefer one type of school to another then I suggest you rethink your priorities. I'd prefer if we could give things to the poor of this nation rather than restrict them due to a petty misunderstanding. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 23:19, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no petty misunderstanding (though you did say "suit their child best"... according to the parent. I think a decision like that should be left to the Health and Education ministries). I just don't think that this choice for parents is necessary. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:20, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then why do you oppose this reform that gives greater freedom and equality? (You don't think that a parent should be able to choose where to send their child to school? Not even if they do it in conjunction with the child? why? they know their child best and they'll choose the school that they feel will give their child the best chance in life. I seriously doubt that the reason you wish to take away choice, which I may say isn't very socially liberal at all, is because you're concerned for the child's chances and I feel it's politically motivated which really is not the right way to go about this decision. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 06:09, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've been thinking about it, and I don't like choice over education. All children should receive an equal education. Parents should not be able to choose their child's education that freely. In other matters, it is different, such as mental/physical health issues that require special schools, etc. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:35, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * So you favour uniformity over choice? I'm also assuming that according to your statement about mental issues that you think people who are different (for instance someone with Aspergers Syndrome) should be forced into 'special schools'? To be honest I can't see a way of compromising with you that doesn't make it harder on the poor, reduces choice and forces people to be treated like sardines in a tin being told what to do, where to be and when to be there. I feel that currently you're only going to be in opposition to this bill in the end, so until that changes I'm going to wait for supporters of reform to comment on further developments we're making towards making education more equal, more adaptable to the child and more based on choice. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 13:44, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't make it harder on the poor. I'm not an expert on Asperger's, but I don't think it should be forced into a special school. Decisions based on health would be made by experts in the MoH and MoE, taking in parent's opinions, but not just blunt parental choice. Why is parental choice so good? It's not about them, it's about a child. Also, how does parental choice make education more equal? It makes education more unequal, not equal. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:57, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes it does, because richer families will simply be able to pay for the best education and once again the two tier education system will continue. Then who do you plan on forcing into these 'special schools'?
 * On parental choice, since when do experts take what's best for the child as first place? And yes it is about the child, which is why the people closest to the child, their parents, should be guiding them while they're at an age where they are not ready to make choices for themselves. Under your proposed idea of experts managing everything, things would simply be more complex and school freedom would be at an absolute zero.
 * It's about having a choice about how your child is educated rather than being pushed towards the cheapest option rather than the one that is best for their child. And please do tell me how more choice makes things unequal? Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:29, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Private schools won't be better than public schools, so it will be equal. :P People unable to function in a normal school (mentally disabled) or who have a disability that would prefer to be in a special school (deaf, blind), etc. Since when do they not? They will, since it would be their job to do that. How do you know parents will make the right decision? Experts won't manage everything, just some things. Parents would still be able to choose between different schools if it's approved by an expert (who will take into account parental choice). School freedom isn't important to me. What cheapest option? State schools will be of very good quality. Choice makes things unequal by having some children receive different educations. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:25, August 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Time we're not arguing that, and besides the world trend disagrees with you. But if you give schools extra funds to make provisions for that child then they will gain social skills that are vital to life as well as enjoying a normal life rather than being segregated and treated differently in a negative way. Experts are disconnected, parents are not, you can't decide everything with facts and figures. What some things would they manage?
 * The next thing you say is confusing, you say that parents will be able to choose between approved schools in your new system, which is what would happen anyway under a voucher system. Then you say school freedom isn't important, please be straight, do you want to give parents a choice or not?
 * So receiving different educations is wrong is it? Well hate to shock you but that's what's happening and what will happen. This ludicrous claim that having variance in the educational system increases inequality is ridiculous. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 07:33, August 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * We have magic in Lovia. Trust me, they will be good. :P That's a good point, but from my experience, they're distracting to other children, etc. Experts can decide what's is best for the child. Disconnected from what? They will make the right decision. They'd approve some schools for children, and the parents could choose between those. I want to give parents a choice as a compromise between anti-freedom like me and pro-freedom like you, without allowing to straight up decide where their child goes to school. Well, I wouldn't say it's wrong, but what's the benefit of the differences? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:26, August 23, 2013 (UTC)

(reset) Be serious Time, you cannot use magics to make things better than how they are in real life, and further we've been trying consistently in this term of Congress to bring things to a realistic level so pretending things to be better goes thoroughly against one of the main focuses of this term. And from my experience schools are rarely required to make proper provisions and children who are segregated end up living with support for the rest of their lives.

And I again do not think that it is a compromise, limiting freedom then calling it a compromise when you really want to limit it more is not the way forwards. The way forwards is to simply give freedom, we already have the protections in place, all schools will be required to ensure the child a broad curriculum until they are capable of thinking for themselves and to ensure proper teaching standards, that work is ensured by inspectors. All I see in your proposal is another level of unneeded bureaucracy which will only limit freedom of choice when really and truly all the help we need from 'experts' is carried out by inspectors who ensure that every school is up to standards.

And differences are good, they allow a priority of learning that might be important to a child's future ambitions, their local area or state or their style of learning. A child who wants to become involved in movies will need a different education from a child who wants to become a scientist, and a child who learns best through theory will need a different curriculum from a child that learns through doing and not to mention the differences between the social and economic environments of a state like Oceana and say Clymene.

Difference is good because it caters to everyone's needs and wants. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 14:52, August 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * It was a joke. :P But seriously, they will be exemplary schools. They'll be properly maintained and have good teachers, etc. It is a compromise... between your freedom and my lack of freedom. I was talking about primary and early secondary school. Specialized educations like that will be available to the adolescents once they're old enough to make an informed decision themselves (not their parents) about what they want to study. The freedom I dislike is for parents to be able to choose their child's education from the beginning. Children are not owned by their parents. The education is for the children, not the parents. The freedom of choice for parents doesn't make sense. Parents shouldn't have so much control over their child's education. If they want to change things, they'll have to get involved with the school their child is going to. Things like that. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:10, August 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no personal objection against deleting "and/or their parents" everywhere, as long as freedom is maintained. Parents exert some kind of power over their children anyway when they are still young. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:36, August 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Time: Education is for the children but while they are not informed enough they need guidance and parents are the best for this. And no parents do not own their children but neither do officials sitting behind desks. We can change it to make it so that the child should have a say in things but really what child at the age of 6 is going to really know where they want to go? it's a matter of guardianship and guidance Time not some stupid idea you seem to have that a Parent choosing something for their child while they are not knowledgable or old enough to do so is thoroughly wrong.


 * The problem I find with your position is you seem to be really anti-parent but are perfectly happy to replace a parent with an 'expert'. You don't like the idea of a parent choosing their child's school or choosing something because they know their child but you're perfectly happy if you take parent out of the sentence and insert expert, something I find hypocritical and thoroughly wrong with your ideology. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 12:24, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

IDk about a school register, maybe it should be handled at a state-by-state basis. Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:38, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * We can make provisions for States to be required to have a school register. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 20:17, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Also... please, none of that theoretical/professional/technical stuff in the 12-16 period. They should be taught (mostly) the same things, with minor specializations based on the student's wishes. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:45, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's been solved, we've moved to the system you prefer. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 20:17, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

@Kunarian: By a school register do you mean a list of all schools in Lovia? If you do that would be a good idea, as it would keep everything organised and we could work out if there were any areas where new schools were needed.

@TimeMaster: Yes I agree, because I think that children who are 12 years old are too young to choose a program which could shape their whole career. And by the way, yes Russian is a world language, I just put it as a Lovian language due to the large Russian population in Seven :P Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 20:06, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes I do mean that, we're going to devolve that responsibility to the States as people seem to prefer that. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 20:17, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I've added a few subjects to act as a wide base, it should be fine to begin with and legislation will make room for the Ministry of Education to adapt. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 23:14, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not approve of the subjects list. It is way too limited. Please give the states the right to decide on the subjects they wish to offer; f.e. by saying that states may decide to add to the list. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:45, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * No I understand, I've woken up with a better idea. Subjects that can be provided at each level will be for States to decide (like you say) with advice (which you can listen to or not) from the Minister of Education. Of course though the subjects listed in the law (the basic curriculum) will be the only predefined subjects that will be in the law. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:32, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's what I meant :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:51, August 23, 2013 (UTC)

RIGHT, I'm going away for the weekend and won't be back until monday afternoon. I'll try and write some stuff up and hopefully we can have a completed reform ready to move to the second chamber by tuesday or so. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 12:56, August 23, 2013 (UTC)

Okay so I've made changes and removed a line that would allow state schools to be really discriminatory in who they refuse and such. I've also put in the qualifications that these subjects are aimed to do certain things, that means you have flexibility with subjects but ultimately may not veer massively away. I'm just throwing this together so far, feel free to comment, I'll work forwards on it over the day. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 12:24, September 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll keep track of it :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:27, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

New NSO Recognition
The list I proposed are of all created locations (trying to whip you into creating them? :P) which are a number of Hamlets, Villages, and two neighborhoods in Sofasi. If you want to please add localities on the big map, but you should create them first. @Novosevensk - You can change your status from Village to Town, that doesn't need a vote. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:12, August 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Recognized Hamlets are:
 * Albany, Bardeyow, Bergdorf, Boborbrod, Boynitz, Brunswick, Burke's Dam Bytack, Centreville, Clinton, Cold Hill, Douglas, Dubnitz, Eastwood, Estarois,    Feltmolen, Fort Johnson, Glesga, Hawke's Wood, Heighnow, Hewlett, Jason's Ranch, Koningsdorp, Lemburg, Lisney, Long Brook, Magna Augusta, Manchester, Merrimack, Milton, Neale Downs, Newcastle, Newmouth, New Aberdeen, Newport-Forest, Nóngyè, Oostdorp, Orwnitz, Overbanken-Forest, Rosendorp, Rosswood, Rybachye, Scotland, Severnybana, Skelington, Slowane, Stanley, Sternaw, Sunderland, Thameen Timber Harbor, Topolcane, Tshadsa, Tyrstead, Verland, Vrabelvrutke, Westwall, Willard, Windthorn, Xiandu
 * Recognized Neighborhoods are:
 * Intercity, Milerose
 * Recognized Villages are:
 * Abington, Cornwall, Dien Village, Nordhorn, Oostermond, Pool, Righow, Westmark

Minor fix, Dien Village and Righow are villages :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:41, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Another update: Sofasi should be upgrated to city status (considering its population). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:42, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * When a town switches status with popualtion it doesn't need to be affirmed by Congress...It just happens :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:06, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, but we might as well update them in one go è :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:02, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Haa then Sofasi is already updated :P so lets go pass these already :D Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:07, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the neighborhoods should be voted on separately (not at the same times as the hamlets and villages). And shouldn't we include the red-linked hamlets in that list as well? 77topaz (talk) 20:04, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, and, additionally, New Aberdeen is missing from the hamlets list. 77topaz (talk) 04:25, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

I think we should try and write the articles of the red-linked hamlets first. I might try and do a few in the near future Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 10:12, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

This looks good. Give it another day here so we can be sure that we've got all current settlements with a page. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 14:26, August 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * @Frijoles- I would say yes, but maybe its more of an incentive for governors to write the articles :P and by tomorrow ill be second chamber bound.Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:14, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Nowhere in Seven is on the list, but maybe this is intentional. I don't know. --Semyon 18:04, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Let's add the red-linked hamlets too. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:57, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * As I'm no longer able to read everything on the way it should be read - yes it's 3:03 in the night here :P - I'm gonna say I have to agree with TM on the red-linked hamlets. I'll confirm my statement in the morning when I'm sobered up :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 01:06, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Redlinks- We wouldn't pass stuff that wasn't made yet right? If they get made and done, then sure of course they should be made, but only Clymene and Oceana are completely done. Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:40, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand why you guys don't want to add the redlinks, but imagine one of those hamlets created a few days after the NSO is updated. Then we'd have to update the list again, and again, and again... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:44, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * And because they already exist, they just don't have articles yet. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:40, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then add em. :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:14, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I added red links even though its not much of an incentive to just put em' there :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:45, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I'll bring this to 2nd. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:43, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Tis' does not have Sylvania. Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:34, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

It is does not have Sylvania? I not do stand under you're grammar. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:39, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

The list does not have Sylvanian settlements, OKAY? Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:42, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Oos, I think Windthorn was changed to Nordhorn, so we shouldn't include it in the list. And Marcus, I think it'd be easier to add the Sylvanian settlements here as well, it'd save us having to hold yet another vote. 77topaz (talk) 20:00, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I said in the begining if you want to add settlments, add them :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:55, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

024. Vague idea concerning reintroduction of midterms
This is an idea I had about three minutes ago, and I haven't really thought it through carefully yet. But what would you think if we were to introduce midterm elections again - not as before 2011, when more people were simply added to Congress, but having roughly a third of Congress which is elected in say June rather than January? So 70 MOTCs could be elected in January, and then another 30 in June, but when elections came round again in January, the June MOTCs would retain their seats until the summer.

This could have a few advantages. Having more elections is more exciting and boosts activity. Reshuffles would occur more often, forcing users to remain active for longer to ensure they maintain their political position. New users would have a chance to join congress sooner, and in a more minor role with possibly less responsibility.

The way I see it, new governments wouldn't be formed after midterms, unless the balance of power shifted to the extent that the opposition was able and willing to topple the old government after elections.

I don't know whether users who already had seats would be able to stand in midterms with different characters. I suppose they would have to, otherwise it would be terribly biased towards parties that were able to get new members between elections. Perhaps the system could be spiced up slightly, e.g. midterms operating by party list or elected from constituencies.

Any thoughts? --Semyon 19:11, September 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * I like the idea of constituencies in the midterms. Although maybe we should keep it simple. Here's a few ideas:
 * Do voting on a state by state basis with each state giving a proportional/equal amount of seats to congress, distributing seats via D'hondt
 * Do voting on a state by state basis with constituencies with voting similarly weighed like in the Sylvanian State Elections
 * Do voting on a state by state/national basis with a single transferable voting system
 * responses? Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 19:48, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna use my one-day wikibreak to reflect on this :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:25, September 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hopefully some other things too - like eating, sleeping and being a productive and valuable member of Montfordian society. :P --Semyon 09:19, September 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * :o Actually, "scientific philosophy" and "hating Dutch Railways" was more like my day :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:23, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Could we revive this discussion? Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 07:44, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

We could make the system better, by holding mid-term elections to replace people who have been inactive in Congress for more than three months. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:49, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * How would you decide who is and isn't inactive? Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 10:24, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said, three months no edits in First or Second Chamber = inactive. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:32, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Seems reasonable, should we also have a shorter election period for the midterms? they won't be a full election after all. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 10:42, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * One week? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:45, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * One week for nominations and one week for voting? Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 10:50, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

033. New Supreme Court Judges
After the expiration of the old SCJs term yesterday, we need to elect new ones. Please put forward candidacies for the job. We'll vote on them in the second chamber. --Semyon 10:54, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

Candidacies

 * Sylvester Tso
 * Dalia Donia
 * John Paul Hrádske

I'd prefer to amend the Constitution to change the term to a year. We don't use the court, anyway. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:34, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

@TimeMaster: Good idea! Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 18:30, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

Is the term for SCJs only six months? I would agree with changing the term to a year, it fits more with the other elections which are all also held annually. 77topaz (talk) 20:20, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to propose it. I'll give it my support. In the meantime, this is what the constitution requires. --Semyon 22:07, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

Supreme Court Change

 * The term of each Supreme Court Judge lasts for one year, or shorter, if they resign due to personal reasons or a conflict of interests, or if the Judges declare their inability to judge the case.

I changed terms from six months to one year to coincide with congressional inauguration and not renew them half way through as well. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:33, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:24, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * --Semyon 13:37, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 13:50, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * To clarify, the words "six months" will be changed to "one year". That's it. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:50, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why are we voting in the First Chamber? :P 77topaz (talk) 03:40, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm so hipster I statred a trend to Ironically vote in the first chamber. #yolo #usingitironically #don'tkillme #MOVEitTOtheSECONDCHAMBER Marcus/Michael Villanova 04:08, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * We used to vote here before (to move bills on), but someone said voting was illegal or summink. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 12:34, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, if there's nothing to add and we all agree, why not hold a pre-vote vote? :P If nobody reacts it seems like nobody cares... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:51, September 5, 2013 (UTC)