Forum:National Constitutional Convention

Welcome to the National Constitutional Convention of 2014 - 110 years after the Declaration of the Founding of the Lovian States - where we will be debating, updating and creating the new Lovia. As 110 years ago, our ancestors gathered around 100 delegates in the Capital and had them debate and decide the future of the many states and peoples that had formed in our Lovian land. Now we will come together again with 100 delegates and debate and decide the future of the many peoples of Lovia.

In one weeks time, on the 28th of October, we will have 100 delegates elected from the communities of Lovia. Together we will gather and form a new constitution and create a new stable era in Lovian history, free from uprisings and full of life.

From the 29th we will having timetabled debates and votes to create our new constitution. Slowly we will form a new framework from which we shall take strength, confident that we shall be leaving the stagnation and self-destruction of the past behind.

I hope to end this convention in either late November or early December. Then we shall have our new constitution and it shall be in time for the Federal Elections, in whatever form they take under our new constitution.

The public forum is open to all, but only delegates shall be allowed into the halls for debates and voting. Although there will be public seating and broadcasting the public will not be able to take part in the debates or voting.

Delegates Lounge
Here delegates are listed along with who they represent and empty delegate spaces are filled. Additionally you'll find the timetable for debates and votes here.

Delegate List
And of course, like the declaration of the Lovian States, the Monarch shall be a delegate, representing Lovia not any one community.
 * Clymeni Delegates
 * Plains (2)
 * North Clymene (1)
 * South Clymene (1)
 * Sofasi (9)
 * Truth Island (2)
 * Kingser Delegates
 * Beaverwick (1)
 * North Kings (1)
 * Newhaven (13)
 * West Kings (1)
 * East Kings (1)
 * South Kings (1)
 * Portland (2)
 * Oceana Delegates
 * East Hills (3)
 * North Oceana (1)
 * South Oceana (1)
 * Hurbanova (15)
 * Sevener Delegates
 * Northern Islands (1)
 * Philosophers' Island (1)
 * Novosevensk (3)
 * American Island (1)
 * Kinley (4)
 * Sylvanian Delegates
 * Discovery Isle (1)
 * Charleston (1)
 * Headlands (1)
 * Train Village (2)
 * Plains (1)
 * East Sylvania (1)
 * Highlands (1)
 * Clave Rock (1)
 * Bay Area (1)
 * Noble City (24)
 * King Sebastian I of Lovia

Public Forum
Welcome to all. Here is where you can talk about anything related to the convention.

Revert to former state governments
State councils will be unable to pass legislation at the moment due to larger inactivity. I propose that we switch back to governors and deputy governors to run the whole state (within their own rights of course). --Quarantine Zone (talk) 23:28, October 21, 2014 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. The discrepencies in activity between the states as well as inactivity as a whole make the current system as a whole (though not required by constitution?) unworkable. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:04, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

I think we need to simplify the system on the user side certainly. I think that devolution is important, we just need to not try and replicate the Congress five times in every state. I hope that you two will want to be delegates then. :D Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 21:24, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I think it would be much simpler to focus on a federal government. I don't see the benefit to devolution, and it's really not workable. I guess we could give a little more power to the governors but I honestly think it's hard to have both devolution and simplicity without tyranny, and simplicity is definitely more important at this point. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:28, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

Democracy has a sliding scale. At one end you get slow decisions and lots of protections, bureaucracy. At the other end you get fast decisions and few protections, autocracy. We must consider democracy in an IC and OOC way. OOC, the way we actually make decisions, we should aim to lean towards autocracy in State governments with constitutional courts to hold rogue governments to account. IC, the way we RP decisions, we should aim to be central in our approach and RP a completely democratic council.

To be clear, we shouldn't just be thinking about this just IC/OOC but also OOC/IC. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 23:35, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

I guess state councils are fine if they're entirely IC, meaning no OOC elections for them. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:55, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

It's lots of bureucracy to have state councils, elections, because we have little number of users. Traspes (talk) 00:04, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

I'd say, from the standpoint of an online, fictitious nation, it makes the most sense at this point to have a governor and dep. governor for each state (these will be actual users), and have a "fake" state council that is simply part of the fictitious country. That would allow us to keep the realistic part of the bureaucracy that we spent so much time setting up while maintaining state activity on the site. Personally, I supported the devolution movement of 2013, but the state councils were a poor implementation IMO. Now, due to limited user activity, I'd rather have evolution to the federal government that will allow us to pass laws with limited activity on the site. --QZ - RWCP 00:24, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

And do you think that we can create a state council (or territory council?), a legislature in Truth Island?? Traspes - Dianna Bartol 00:42, October 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Truth Island certainly needs devolution, but the form of that needs to be discussed. Forming a Truth Island State might not be the way forwards, but an autonomous region of Clymene might be the way that we give it the self-determination without causing too many issues. After all if Truth Island can be a State, what's to stop Philosophers' Island being a state? or Discovery Isle? or South Kings? We must think of the consequences of our actions and at the moment autonomy within their respective states is the best way forwards in my opinion for these more independent thinking territories. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 06:04, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with QZ on the idea of having an OOC/IC Gov./Dep. Gov., and then having a solely IC State Council that only "rubber stamps" the policies of the Governor and Deputy Governor. 01:39, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

Glad that we're on board with the idea of OOC pragmatism and IC realism on the State governments. One the implementation of State Councils, I believe they were too much work for a reduced number of users. Combined with other problems I think they led to the issues of stagnation. Devolution must be maintained I believe but we can now use the experience we've gained to implement it properly. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 06:01, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

Delegates sign-up
I'm assuming that everyone here wants to control delegates, if so, please indicate from which areas you would like to represent delegates so that we can start assigning delegates for the actual convention in the halls. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 05:56, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

I would be up for Beaverwick, North Kings, and parts of Newhaven, as this is the general geographic area that Dirk Brandt came from. Thanks, 07:13, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

Oceana of course. --O u WTB 09:34, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

TI, Oceana (Hurb if possible) and maybe NC. HORTON11 : •  13:01, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

I want, Noble City and Truth Island, because I have lot's of ideas, cultural, historic and more! Traspes - Dianna Bartol 14:57, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

Right, I'll start working out who gets what. Also the more places you select, the more spread out across these your delegate numbers will be. I'm going to be going for Sylvania, Clymene, Seven and South Kings btw. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 18:26, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

Self-determination for Truth Island
This is one of the main things I'd like to see discussed here, you can see some of the ideas at Talk:Truth Island self-determination. Essentially I'd like to see an arrangement for autonomy for Truth Island within Lovia. We might have to review the arrangement of power, rights and responsibilities for the states but for now I'd like to see a 5+1 arrangement. As an OOC reason this would bring about more things to work on (thus activity) and IC an increase (though not immediately of course) of revenues and thus more funds for Lovia to work on the postwar recovery. HORTON11 : •  16:05, October 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * When you see the time table there will be a section for this discussion. I have a plan that would give us a solution preferable to all. Autonomy within Lovia is not right. That's essentially being a State, which causes a million more problems than it fixes. And if Truth Island can be a state then Discovery Isle can, South Kings or Philosophers' Isle. This will cause endless problems and is unnecessary to give Truth Islanders the autonomy they want.


 * To be clear THERE SHALL BE NO 5+1 ARRANGEMENT. It will NOT increase activity for Lovia as a whole, it will not increase funds for Lovia. There is a lot of delusion about the idea of Truth Island Self-determination. Self-government is understandable, wanting to try and open your doors to gambling mega-corporations is not. First of all why would Truth Islanders want that, they have a long held tradition of an affinity with their local nature and your "off-shore" solution is just as wrong, no business would want to fund that and no business can get the massive incomes you are suggesting.


 * Taxes will not suddenly leap if Truth Island becomes completely autonomous. Instead it will most likely slump and decrease, after all Truth Island will have to generate its own cash (from a population that is certainly not rich) to spend. Lovia will not be subsidising them and I can guarantee when looking at a much larger, low tax, high tech nation like Lovia (minus TI) and comparing it to a tiny (They have 5000 less than population), high tax (to fund any basic level of spending), low tech (tourism and hotels are not technology) autonomous island like TI that business will jump to Lovia every time. The only way Lovia (and Clymene) might benefit is by putting up a toll on the bridge so that when people arrive in Noble City and take the road to Newhaven then the ferry to Sofasi and cross the bridge, Lovia will get some money.


 * The idealistic, separatist influenced dream of a magically prosperous Truth Island will not materialise. But my solution will give you the self-rule and ability to generate that extra activity without the negatives of having to take responsibility for yourself (which I state again, is really difficult when you are a tiny nation with very few taxpayers).


 * My solution is simple and easy to handle. It will involve creating a subdivision known as an autonomous territory. It will be within the state of Clymene but will sacrifice representation in the State Council and votes for the Governor in return for self-rule, its share of the devolved funding and the freedom to create its own by-laws instead of taking on those made by the Clymeni State Government. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 18:46, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

And the other, public housing
Not only cause of the displacement and destruction caused by the war, but I think it's good to have affordable housing for low-income families and individuals. HORTON11 : •  16:12, October 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * This is the place for constitutional discussion but this needs to be discussed once we are operational as a government again. Until then we really can't do much. But yeah, not here or now. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 18:24, October 23, 2014 (UTC)