Forum:First Chamber

__NEWSECTIONLINK__ In Lovia, Congress is the national legislative body and the most powerful branch of government. The First Chamber is one of the two chambers of Congress, in which the Members of the Congress propose bills and debate them. The Second Chamber is where they are eventually voted. Paradoxically, Lovia does not have a bicameral parliament: there is only one group of MOTCs that both debates and votes the proposals. For the current composition of Congress, see this.

As prescribed by Article 6 of the Constitution, all Lovian citizens "may write and propose motions to the Federal Law", that "are presented to the Members of the Congress in the First Chamber." The MOTCs' duty is to "read the motion and form a personal opinion about it. In order to obtain the support of a majority of Members of the Congress, changes may be proposed in the First Chamber." If a majority is likely to be found, the proposer will move the bill to the Second Chamber for a vote.

The First Chamber is not a popular assembly where all citizens can express their personal interests. Polling the population ought to happen outside of Congress.

041. Building stop towers
I remember in Libertas we once had the so called "torenbouwstop". All multi-storey buildings (=apartments/skyscrapers) were empty and yet we kept on building them. In Lovia it's time we do a same thing. Users like f.e. Horton11 keep building high buildings while the old buildings are nowhere near filled. Just like a stop on building new towns/neighborhoods we should also stop these towers. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:12, November 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pro, there must be a good regulation. Otherwise it'll become like Bucharest Everyone who has the money does what he wants, but there must be some restrictions to avoid it to become a chaos. Bucu 16:51, November 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree. Martha Van Ghent 07:45, December 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * surprisingly not alot of attention, but i agree.Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 21:19, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

So, what's up with this one? Are you gonna do sth with it, owtb? 13:48, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's the idea, but I don't think this is a law adaption.. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:49, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Naah, you proposed it, we support it, you better get writing then  13:52, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, that's quite the problem: what should I write? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:53, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * whatever you want to be regulated  13:58, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, wach ef.. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:00, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

Tower block act

 * 1) In Lovia there shall no longer be built any towers:
 * 2) A tower is a building consisting of multiple floors of which several floors have a different apartment or company place for sale.
 * 3) A tower may only be built in special cases if the governor of the desbetreffende state agrees.

Something like this? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:03, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * I really like the 'desbetreffende'. An addition for Lovia English maybe? 14:05, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * hmm yeah, but not really quite there  14:06, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hahah, can't find a translation for it :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:06, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

044. Initiation of a Federal Planning Bureau
I do not have a large knowledge of the laws and the constitution in our country. But I suppose for this we need a new section in our constitution/lawbook.

I want to start up a Planning Bureau, a bureau that advises congress when it faces economical troubles, or when it comes to policymaking, or when new economic/financial laws need to be voted.

I propose the following: JON  THE DUDE   JOHNSON  14:00, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) The Federal Planning Bureau is an official authoritative section situated on the federal level of Lovian government.
 * 2) Its powers are limited to:
 * 3) The proposal of economical and financial laws;
 * 4) The provision of advice on proposed bills conerning on economical and financial matters;
 * 5) The suspension of proposals on economical and financial level in order to re-calculate the consequences for Lovia and its inhabitants.
 * 6) The maximum suspension period is two weeks' time.
 * 7) The Chairperson of the Federal Planning Bureau is chosen every six months by Congress and must be a Member of the Congress. [After Federal and Mid Term elections]
 * Made some adjustments. It's pretty okay
 * One more question: what is it? An agency, a council...? 14:09, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a question I was asking myself to (answer:It is what it is :p). I'd define it as a council: what structure do you prefer? JON   THE DUDE   JOHNSON  14:14, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Some sort of council seems fair. But then you'll have to add a definition to your bill, I think. Which says how it works, how many members it should have, etc. Currently, it would have only one member who can uphold quite a lot. A council with one member isn't really a council, though, is it? Perhaps just give one MOTC the power to do the things you would have wanted this council to do? Some sort of "Economic and Financial Planner"? 14:33, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hm we could do that, indeed, but maybe we can add two more 'members' the secretary of IAT (hence the 'trade') and the PM, to make it more democratic. I'll add some info on how it must work this eve JON   THE DUDE   JOHNSON  14:42, December 18, 2010 (UTC)

I like this idea. It does need some work as Dimitri pointed out above. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:00, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * hummm...This could be good. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 15:20, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Forgive me if I must be enlightened, but what is the point of this? I can hardly see how a council could fix problems that congress could do on its own. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 17:40, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why do we need a central bank than? Why do we need any kind of department than? Why do we need a congress whatsoever than? We need this because this 'council' can focus it self on the economics en finances of lovia, which is needed in these hard times JON   THE DUDE   JOHNSON  12:21, December 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * How could Congress not be able to achieve this on its own? We don't need advisers, we don't need complication. On its own, Congress can fix any problem to come its way (if applicable). This advising system promotes seperating Congress to different levels, so that some people are "elite congress(wo)men." Elitism is the very reason the anti-cabalism ordeal came around. The solution to a nonexistent problem is a problem in itself. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 20:41, December 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with elitism! It's just a way of making it more easy to respond quick and sufficient towards sudden economical/financial situations. It's a planning bureau, every country in the world has it! Lovia cannot stay behind! JON   THE DUDE   JOHNSON  05:55, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Lovia doesn't actually have 150+ senators. There's only around 15 of us. If we do this, we end up having a mini-Congress making decisions, and hence leaving the rest of Congress behind. The Congress is good as it is, and if you have a problem with people who are elected MOTC, then tell the people to stop voting for them, but don't try to cheat basic democracy. If 15 people is too much for this nation, then we're already doomed to fall into total disorder. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 16:59, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Hannis here, not the Elitism part but otherwise he has a very valid argument. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 22:53, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * All the people who will be active in the council are from within the congress, so that not making congress any larger, and secondly they are only focusing on a primordial issue in the country, and that's a good thing, because our congress is just voting on everything, mostly not knowing the effects, this will be stopped partly by this initiation JON   THE DUDE   JOHNSON  08:36, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Then why not have one for every small issue? Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 19:44, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's how in the end it should be, but we are too few to realize that! And so we need to start with the most important issues, so in that way economy is a normal choice. You are disappointing me marcus by calling economics a "small issue" JON   THE DUDE   JOHNSON  21:11, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would support congress members to be in smaller orginized comitties, then they would write and approve them and introduce them to all of congress, 15 congressmen, each in two comitties, 6 comitties. Economics is not a small issue but people will interperet and create 20 small committies "The Committie to Decide upon Committies and Committie activities" . Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 21:18, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not knowing the effects? C'mon, don't pretend this is an actual nation. There are sufficiently few of us so that we can be perfectly aware of a national and subnational situation easily. What you are doing right now is just making matters more complicated. We do not have economic problems, and if we do, then we already have three options: department of Finance, state government, and national bank. Isn't that enough? We do not have a problem, so we do not need a solution. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 23:54, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Since we are not a real countries we do not have any problem at all! And the creation of this nation as a solution to a non-existing problem is a problem in itself! We do not need anything at all, we could just 'funny about' and enjoy ourself a bit, but hey, this is not what I want, I give my self fully for the country (for you nothing more than a site seemingly) and that consists of getting us out of the economic crisis, because it great fun only adapting the good things in life to our site! JON   THE DUDE   <font color=Navy>JOHNSON  08:17, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Woah, there. Calm down. If you're incapable of remaining calm when you have all the time in the world, I dare not imagine what you may be in reality. So, going back to your argument/patriotic speech, which I don't care to refute at the moment, you must keep in mind that by adding bureaus, departments, councils, etc., you make things complicated. I'm from France, so I can tell you that a country that fails to unify everything into a single, non-complicated, organized, and unified body, becomes a "bureaucratic nightmare" (Inception quote). Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 16:46, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to see with bureaucracy, I only want a 'body' which can act (with 'knowledge') easy and correct when needed, and I don't think many people in congress have the knowledge to do so. When I look to the currency debate, I see many just lurking towards an own currency, but does anybody know the consequences? <font color=Navy>JON   THE DUDE   <font color=Navy>JOHNSON  17:05, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * To be honest, it sounds like you don't like the result of democracy. If people elected those who are dumb into the highest positions of the nation, and your solution to is make a better-leading congress, then what you're fighting against is the result of a (possibly) uneducated or deluded electing people blindly. If you don't like who people vote for, tell them not to vote for them. I respect the decision of the people, and I will not prevent democracy from running its course. Representative democracy makes decisions, not appointments to a higher level of representative democracy, which it in turn makes the decisions. It seems like all you want is a smarter congress, and you're looking for a means of keeping those you judge "dumb" out of power, at least in the topics that you find important. On a final note, in my defense, I am against the national currency, but let's keep that out of it. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 16:37, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * What you say is 'dumb' :p. It comes to this: in every government, so in every country in the world, the ministers have one special authority, and they are for that period specialized in it (they read the bills, they make arrangements,... this improves the government! And this is what Lovia also needs! It's not that congress is dumb, it's that congress cannot focus itself on every little topic, so I propose that a council can focus itself especially on economics, so other MOTC don't need to understand the bills fully, so we can make progress faster! <font color=Navy>JON   THE DUDE   <font color=Navy>JOHNSON  16:45, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Whoever said Congress can't take care of every little thing? If you haven't noticed, Congress is basically inactive at the moment, and proposals are rare and separated. It's not like Congress is overloaded or anything, it's just that there isn't much change going on. If Congress was overloaded, which it isn't, then we would have a problem. But it isn't. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 17:46, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * It has been overloaded in the past (when you were absent). I don't think that it is a good idea to make laws when needed and to abolish them when the problem is gone, laws must be constructive, this one is! <font color=Navy>JON   THE DUDE   <font color=Navy>JOHNSON  09:58, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

045. Formal recognition of Mäöres
I've been scanning through the archives and I can't find anything on whether Lovia actually formally recognizes Mäöres as a souvereign country (all I could find was the recognition of Kosovo). So, could we propose this to the Second Chamber? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:30, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see why not. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 17:45, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think it necessary. This is why: we don't recognize the US or Belgium, do we? I think we can presume Lovia recognizes most internationally (and wikinationally) recognized states. New states we can either recognize or not recognize. That's what the Kosovo thing was about :) 18:02, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * "we can presume": We could also presume that I may build a huge nuclear reactor in Oceana (there's no law forbidding it), so I don't really think "we can presume" is something satisfactory :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:17, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * There's the green energy act, I saw Hillbilly Boy 18:37, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I didn't mean a nuclear reactor for energy supply :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:39, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * (I hate kovoso) But on subject...We could propse a law that states "Any countries that has declared independence or has its own formal government is reconzined as a nation by Lovia, Unless otherwise or a congressional stating that they won't reconzine it"
 * In Common terms: We reconize all countires anyway, and any we don't we vote on it. Considering the fact that we could deal with 99.9% of existing countires it's okay. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 20:06, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, then there's still a long list: don't forget Transnistria, Abchazia, South-Ossetia, Basque lands, Biafra, Sealand and all that stuff. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 20:15, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's not forget political recognitions. For example, France does not recognize the PR of China, as far as I understand. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 00:00, December 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm...I seeMarcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 01:20, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

We could make a list of countries recognized by Lovia and vote for all of them once. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:05, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't even think that's necessary. It's more or less safe to assume that Lovia recognizes all commonly recognized nations, right? I mean, it's not like we don't recognize Kosovo, and we're not going to say we recognize South Ossetia or (:P) Sealand, right? Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 17:04, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, (to get back on the original subject) Mäöres is not really commonly recognized :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:46, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * It is better to make its recognition by Lovia entirely official. To avoid problems in the future when certain politicians may change their minds. There is always the possibility they'll do just that, we have to take that into account. Pierius Magnus 17:59, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess you're right. So how do we enact this? A vote? I don't see what the Constitution says we should do. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 18:26, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * With the Kosovo recognition it was a simple vote. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:36, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I suppose that's the way to do it, yes. If one person knows it, it's gotta be that fellow who wrote our consititution, Dimitri his name is, I believe. :) Pierius Magnus 18:38, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay. So, do we put forth a bill with a list of all possibilities? That'd be a huge bill. Maybe it'd be best if we just vote on what not to recognize. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 19:50, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * That'd be easier, yes. Pierius Magnus 19:57, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

I say we don't reconzine Fiji! To not reconize a country is a bit to odd. Don't you think? Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 22:51, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sigh*. Not Really, Marcus. Inform yourself before making conclusions. Most nations do not recognize certain other nations. For instance, France does not recognize China. China does not recognize Taiwan as independent. Most countries do not recognize South Ossetia, but Russia does. Recognition is a basic value for a nation; it's what helped Kosovo, for instance, become an accepted country. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 23:10, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * And there are some people who still think that Kosovo should and should be a country. but in this case I don't think we will be helping and people declare there freedom to form a new country. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 23:18, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry to say so, Edward, but France does recognize the PRC. They've done so for quite some decades. They switched sides (no longer supporting the Republic of China, Taiwan) in the sixties, I think. 07:23, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia: France established diplomatic relations with the PRC in 1964. 07:28, December 21, 2010 (UTC)

@Edward: I think it's best to "presume" (it saves a lot of work) that Lovia recognizes all commonly recognized countries and for those not commonly recognized, but of which some users same it should be recognized, Mäöres for example, we hold a vote. The number of not recognized countries is larger than the number of recognized countries.. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:47, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * @DimiTalen - Whoops! Thanks for catching me there, Dimi. It's weird. I really, honestly thought that France did not recognize China. Huh. Well, once again, thanks.
 * @Oos - Sounds good. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 16:18, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow. I feel like an idiot. I just realize that France does not recognize North Korea, not China. *self-facepalm* Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 16:20, December 21, 2010 (UTC)

Closely the same thing but not quite. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 19:41, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * And Adlibita then? :P Cristian Latin 16:46, December 28, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah why not, on the Page Lovia it says "Lovia would like to join the United Nations and the NATO. Lovia recognized the Republic of Kosovo on March 1, 2008, and wanted to show that it was tolerant towards new nations and all people." It also went on to say: "Though, in Libertas and Lovia a successor for the United Wiki Nations has been proposed, probably the International Wiki Organization. The reactions are mostly positive in Lovia, although negative comments from Adlibita have a bad influence on the popularity of the new IWO. " I think that answers two questions. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 16:57, December 28, 2010 (UTC)

047. "State-run education" - offering a solution
At present, our legal system does not allow for state-run enterprises. The McCandless bill now in the Second Chamber will allow the states to perform their powers through agencies and state-owned corporations, which is good. But, since education is not within the realm of the states, official state-run schools are off limits. Nevertheless, Noble City has several such schools, and I perceive other states are no different. Schools, one of government's most basic occupations, are not properly covered by our legal system.

We need to solve this. LAP proposes the following:
 * 1) All state-owned and/or state-run schools will be transferred to the federal state. Congress will own the school buildings and grounds, and the schools will be (de jure) run by Congress.
 * 2) The Department responsible for Education will appoint directors to each such school. The Department will have authority over the management of these schools. The Secretary of Education should be able to summon a school's director if the legal requirements are not taken into account by that specific school. Of course, REAC's involvement will be demanded if rules are broken.
 * 3) By making the Department liable for the schools' management, parents and pupils in Lovia have someone to write to or call when things go wrong. At present, there was no one to blame when something went wrong. This system will make the educational system more responsible.

State-run schools will remain free in the areas they have been free in recent years. Curricula will still be chosen by the schools' principals - within the legal framework - to fit the neighborhood's demands for good education.

I want to poll whether the 2010 Congress has a connection with this very important and rather urgent issue. Then, LAP will work on a Federal Law Article. If you Congressmen don't feel the necessity of this small but urgent reform, then I will put it to the next Congress. Please provide me with feedback asap. Percival E. Galahad 10:45, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, this is not the complete story. Only "five-day schools" should be transferred, not "saturday schools". --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:49, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course. I am not sure we consider them official primary/secondary schools, anyway. Percival E. Galahad 10:50, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Eh.. No, I don't think so, but you didn't mention "official schools" :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:51, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry :). That's what I meant though. I only mean schools which currently fall under either the Primary or the Secondary Education Acts of Congress. Could I count on your support here, Mr Secretary? Percival E. Galahad 10:53, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * You sure have mine. Education is core business when maintaining a healthy society. 10:57, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, there's a huge reform necessary and I think this is a very good beginning :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:57, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Idem! Good work. 11:02, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is very fine. Walden supports! 16:14, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * As a govenor, and already created one school, this law gives the states to do as they please. Also is the law andy proposed passed yet? Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 17:56, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

048. Congressial Journal
I propose to keep a record of all Congressial activities. It's kind of laborious to look up when Congress passed or rejected which bill. What I propose is to make a simple page, which says:
 * [date] - [name bill/proposal/amendment], as proposed by [name MOTC] on [date proposal]
 * Votes cast: pro ([number]), contra ([number]), abstain ([number]) - [percentage pro]

So:
 * 31/01/2011 - FedLaw: Amazing Act, as proposed by Andy McCandless on 01/01/2011
 * Votes cast: pro (10), contra (2), abstain (0) - approved by 83.33%

Amendment
I propose to add this line to Article 6 of the Constitution, as section 4:


 * 4. For each motion that has been moved to the Second Chamber by Congress, and that is in due time either approved, rejected or proven unable to gain the required support, Congress must keep a record, starting February 1st of the year 2011, which will be known as the Congressial Journal.

I'll need a two thirds majority to pass this bill.

Comments
"Simplify simplify" is my motto. This bill is perfect in doing that: we insert one section in the constitution to solve all problems looking up when and how a bill was approved. Anyway, what's a state that doesn't keep track of its own activities? Also, it's the people's right to know what Congress is doing and has done! Thnx. 13:33, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Very much pro! Though this is more like "regulate, simplify".  13:39, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Lol! Well yes . That's the Walden approach since August, really. In order to make the lives of the people we care for easier, the government should foresee some things. A journal is a pretty easy thing to keep up with, anyway  13:41, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't see the need for this. Also, I can tell from experience that it'll not be regularly updated. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:41, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * It can be done. It's not difficult to update it while the bills are actually being accepted or rejected at that very moment. It's rather difficult to do it after that. It's about tidiness. How could you not see that? 13:43, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Eh.. :P I still don't see the need for this.. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:45, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * People have the right (and duty perhaps) to check what their government is up to. We've just accepted a whole bunch of civil legislation and most won't even know about it. How's that "representing the people"? 13:47, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * If it's about that I'd call it useless bureaucracy :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:48, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * It stuns me you don't care about informing the people. 13:49, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * btw, even your homeland has it. 13:49, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, if my homeland has it, why don't I get it? :P I really have no idea what the people in the Dutch government are doing actually, but back to the topic. I understand why you want to do this, but I don't think it's necessary in a country with only 22.000 inhabitants. It's like the municipality (or however you write that word :P), you simply know it, because it's close to you. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:51, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * You can access it online if you want: https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/zoeken. Anyway, it's not a big deal to just write down our past activities and it saves people like me, who want to learn about our laws and who wants to know what has been done in the past Congress (which is of crucial importance to your constituency, too), a lot of trouble. The National Archivs are amazing if you want to know it all, what's being said and who voted for what, but it's a pain in the ass for basic information. 13:56, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * But that's on the internet and I can tell you that a lot of people don't have access to internet :P Well, the wiki has a "search" thing at your left :P But I'll no longer be irritating (I like it though :P) so I'll support. If it turns out not to be working, we could still abolish it. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:59, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Anyway, I am willing to promise my electorate I'll pay careful attention to updating it in due time. If we all (or some of us) do that, it will work out just fine; 14:02, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:05, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice Andy! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 16:52, January 1, 2011 (UTC)