Forum:The Pub

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nl:Forum:De kroegli:Forum:De Kaffeero:RoWikicity:Cafeneasv:Forum:Krogen Welcome to The Pub! This is the general meeting place in Lovia. Inhabitants can make public announcements, have a friendly chat with some copatriots, or discuss crucial issues in Lovian politics or business. Speeches can also be made at Speakers' Corner. All archives of The Pub can be found here.

History of the states
I know there's been some discussion about pre-2008 politics recently, as well as the role of the states, so here's an interpretation of how the states came to be, which hopefully you'll like enough to accept it into the official history of Lovia, and will perhaps explain some unanswered questions. Here goes.

Arthur I's original plan was for Lovia to be a strongly centralized state, with an official language (either English or Dutch) and a homogenized population, which might perhaps eventually be able to apply to become a US state. This plan didn't work out, mostly because people of different nationalities tended to stick together and keep their own culture, and the king wasn't very successful in establishing his authority. For instance, some local leaders were able to muster their own police forces which were much larger and more loyal than the king's. After his death in 1887, however, his son pursued a much more pragmatic policy, giving away legal power to several local leaders in exchange for their allegiance, for example to the Springhorses and to the early Chinese settlers of Clymene (notably not to Nikolai Sharapov who refused to deal with the Lovians). Kings and Sylvania remained under the personal control of the King. Unfortunately, this approach too failed after about ten years, for a number of reasons; conflict between the mainly Dutch-speaking population of Kings who wanted self-rule from the mainly English-speakers of Sylvania, conflict between the Americans and Eastern Europeans in Collinia, as well as disputes over territorial boundaries all over the country. After some unrest, almost a hundred local leaders met with the King in 1905 in NC to sign a document giving away further legal powers. Five areas were formed, each with a dominant language and culture. Over time, obviously, almost all of Lovia became Anglophone, some areas (such as Kings) faster than others (such as Oceana). Nevertheless, I think this explains well why so many communities, which are culturally and linguistically very different, exist across Lovia. --Semyon 15:38, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sylvania - English speakers, mostly Americans.
 * Kings - Dutch speakers, from the Netherlands and Flanders. This was opposed by the fairly large Anglophone minority, particularly in Newhaven, then a small village. To pacify them, it was agreed NH would become the capital of the state.
 * Oceana, which would be dominated almost exclusively by the Slovaks and Poles. In exchange for the Americans' loss of influence, Sylvania received some key Collinian territory, particularly around TV.
 * Clymene - Chinese speakers.
 * Seven, where the main parties (Kinley and NK) refused to compromise. In the end the declaration simply stated, rather vaguely, 'all groups shall share in the responsibility of governing.' In practice, virtually all governors were from Kinley, and Novosevensk shortly after retreated back into isolation and autarky.
 * I like it very much, thanks! :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:56, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that the Chinese in Clymene would have been a rather small minority. Chinese immigration to N. America was extremely limited, and the few that could afford the crossing would move on to San Francisco or Vancouver. What I was thinking, though, was that there would be some sort of gold (or silver) rush in in Clymene (1890s), attracting Anglo-Americans, Sylvanians and perhaps some Chinese in the US, many which would go back due to alsmost no gold. Many Americans and a few Chinses would eventually stay. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:17, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't actually agree with anything you've said (sorry :P). Chinese immigration to the Americas was not extremely limited, as Wikipedia will tell you, at least not until US immigration restrictions in 1882. It seems rather likely that Lovia would have become a popular destination instead, in the face of these restrictions. I know you don't like the idea of Clymene having a Chinese population (why not, btw?) but it's well integrated into the site, and even though you are governor you kind of have to deal with it. --Semyon 17:24, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

I really like this idea, considering that I've recently been looking into the complex politics of the wars of the roses (which deals a lot with trouble centralising and local leaders disobeying the kings of that time) I really think this'll add an extra spice to the history books. I have some good ideas about the centralisation within pre-Sylvania and conflicts between the eastern Europeans and Americans. Also even if the states were made and formed in 1905, there still would have been the remnants of the local leaders allies that weren't on the winning side that needed mopping up, definitely something interesting. Also I think that maybe this time period would be a good one to add in the origins (as it would have been multiple groups and people advocating it) of Confederate feeling within the nation. Man, I love history, there's definitely a lot to consider and do, but I'm on board! :) Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 21:58, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Next part
Response to the above (which only went up to about 1910) seemed fairly positive, so here's the next part.

Over the next fifty years or so, the states pretty much ruled themselves, democratically. Not much happened on the federal level, because the governors were fairly conpetent and people didn't have much in common with those in other states. Most people identified themselves as by their state e.g. as Sylvanians rather than Lovians. Though the king was an important figure as representative of the whole nation and a unifying symbol, he didn't have much political power. There was no defined mechanism for making federal laws - on a couple of issues, however, the first nationwide laws were created: first, an agreement that no state would raise an army or go to war without agreement from all, and secondly a document in which each state pledged to democratically elect councils to assist them in running their states. These documents were signed by all governors as well as the king.

In the 1930s, the situation began to change. Depression caused large-scale migration between states as people searched for work, and with the clash of cultures and economic pressure over limited resources came conflict. Lovia was forced to develop a way of resolving interstate conflict, and at first it was left up to the king as a neutral arbiter. This proved inadequate after some dispute that arose in 1935 between Sylvania and some other states, shortly after Princess Lucy was elected Governor of Sylvania (my idea: perhaps the other poorer states had a lot of citizens working in NC because of the depression, and were angry because Sylvania wanted to impose some sort of extra tax on resident non-Sylvanians). The other states refused to accept the King's arbitration because they claimed he was biased towards his daughter (possibly why he was assassinated a few years later?). The tension reached a climax when they threatened to secede. Arthur backed down and created the Royal Legislative Council, which essentially took over the role of the king with regard to arbitration.

That's enough for now, I should think. :P I want to keep it a fairly vague outline so others, particularly the new governors, have the chance to put forward their own ideas. --Semyon 15:38, October 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * I like this idea, once again plenty of room to manouver and make our own history while still being on a proper well defined guideline. Personally I think that the thing that could have caused problems could be that Sylvania was increasing spending largely and won a lot of economic arguments against the other states due to being the centre of Lovia, the tipping point would be that they got to a situation when Sylvania was demanding that the other states pay taxes in to compensate for it and so the other states thought it was getting too big for its britches. Just an idea. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:52, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it settles the pre-Congress issues. Thanks very much. I hope the others like it too :) @kunarian: wouldn't work for Oceana, they had the only real mining industry, so they were economically nearly as big as Sylvania. For the other states, it would work. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:04, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps that was the reason for the conflict: Oceana became big enough to challenge Sylvania for the first time. Having said that, I don't want the entire history of Lovia to revolve around Oceana fighting the rest of Lovia. :P --Semyon 16:08, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, this part would be Sylvania fighting the rest of Lovia, Oceana leading the coalition of states threatening to suceede, maybe raising a militia or two and then Lucy losing the elections for Governor bringing an end to it, with the new governor allying with the rest of Lovia to bring the kings power down. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:11, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * That militia part doesn't sound that good to me :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:15, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's nothing, militias always get raised in america (and germany in 1919 to 1933) in tense times and considering we didn't make them illegal until the modern times, people who were trodden on and left jobless would most likely form private militias and be scary that's all. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:20, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's true, lots of weird things happened in the 1930s. There was even a fascist group which ruled Seven for about eight years, if anyone bothered to read the article I wrote about it. :P --Semyon 16:23, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, then we keep the Seven militias and it's okay :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:26, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * (I have read it Semyon!) 1920s to 30s would be pretty hectic years, and I don't think it would have been just Seven with scary militia however I doubt fascism would have got too much further but it and communism would have been very real threats to stability in that period of economic downturn however unlike other nations, they could easily be politically isolated when the states stopped bickering and then the return to stability and prosperity could happen with the end of the depression. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:33, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

So what precisely was the point of contention? We know it's something to do with the states' wealth relative to each other, but not precisely what the issue was. (Another idea: Sylvania increased taxes on financial transactions out of the state, hitting migrant workers from the other states hard.) --Semyon 12:33, October 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sylvanian economy which had been surviving well due to heavy spending went bust, and demanded financial assistance from the other states? I think we might need to vote on this to be honest, choose two ideas that are probable and realistic and then choose between them. I like the idea about taxes on financial transactions is good, maybe combine it with my idea as a response to it going bust? it can be the straw that broke the donkeys back. :) Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 14:27, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Final part
Lucy came to the throne in 1938. Initially unpopular (for reasons stated above), she quickly moved to conciliate the people of Lovia, by increasing representation of the smaller states in the RLC and helping to restrict the states' power to legislate against each other. Once again, the states' autonomy began to increase. However, with the immigration between states of the 1930s, and the creation of a shared Lovian culture, isolationism was no longer an option. States began to form bodies in order to work together, for instance the North Lovian Union, which imposed economic union on the north of Lovia, including the same tax system, interstate trade tariffs were banned. Similar organisations existed elsewhere, but I'll leave those to someone else to describe. :P Obviously, this additional layer of government made politics very complex and inefficient, with overlapping competencies. Irregularities compounded the problem, such as the fact that Cape Donald District in Kings was a member of the NLU but the rest of Kings wasn't.

Some time in the forties, the queen, who already had been playing a far smaller role than her father, retired altogether, appointing the first prime minister to replace her. This man (Mr X) was a big supporter of centralisation and efficient government, so attempted to break the states' power. He wasn't completely successful, but for the first time the laws began to be made systematically on the federal level, and states did lose a significant amount of their legislative authority. The RLG began to include some democratically elected people, so this is a high point of Lovian democracy. When Lucas took over in '52, he didn't try to change much.

The famines of '56 changed everything. Chaos ensued and neither the states nor the federal government was able to enforce their authority. It was particularly difficult for the states as hard times once again caused a huge number of Lovians to uproot and move elsewhere. When the famines subsided, people called for a strong figure and a centralised government. Lucas, who was seen as weak and the person responsible for the famines, was forced to resign, and was replaced by his brother, who immediately set about cutting the states, heavily weakened by the famines, down to size. Lovia became a much more authoritarian place - few members of the RLC were elected, and the King played a strong role, with a veto right which he exercised rather too often for an unelected monarch. The governors had little responsibility except appointing members of the RLC. This continued until 2002. --Semyon 16:00, October 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * This is great and there are some nice gaps in which we can fill in States history, however there seems to be very little definition on Lovian history from the 60s to the 90s maybe another final final part on ideas about that. I look forwards to writing out the economic struggles of Sylvania in the 30s to 40s (maybe they began to have to compete with the NLU and began building ties with Kings?), and the agressive Centralisation policies will be interesting to write about. :) good work again but I still think there's a gap from the 60s to the 90s we need to adress. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:13, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I sort of ran out of ideas. :P --Semyon 16:16, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * So far, so good :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:45, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Ideas for the 60s to 90s:

Putting my ideas here. I also think that we should have a rough outline for the other issues not mentioned around the 2000s and 2010-now, so that our history can be properly beefed up. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 17:07, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 60s: Economic success and the economic turbulence of the 50s coming to an end, Lovia gains a boost to its technology industry with new developments occuring and most people are able to also afford cars as the style changes from stylistic to simple. Socially things take a hectic turn: The hippy movement spreads to Lovia in the mid 60s and Feminism and Gay rights groups cause a ruccus in the states (Oceana is going to have fun dealing with them), most of these groups operate out of Noble City despite the Governor trying to keep them down. Crime also becomes a big issue and politically many politicains sell themselves on how they plan to deal with this problem along with the social unrest.
 * 70s: Low growth in state economies based on primary and secondary industry caused a nation wide depression and with rising oil prices (highlighted by the many cars people barely used because they couldn't afford them, also damaging and ending most Lovian based motor industry) with some states (maybe?) rationing gasoline. Alternative means of getting electricty gained high demands and anger towards closing coal mines caused political and economic problems, gas and oil became a big alternative with Lovia having natural gas and oil fields all around it. Environmentalism begins taking hold in Lovia and people become more concious and vocal about ensuring the welfare of the states environments, along with dwindling amounts of feminists, many returning from the feminist movement in the 60s.
 * 80s: Continued economic recession caused problems and brings around a revival in the belief of capitalism and neoliberal economic ideas, the states manage to get themselves together (whether by the new ideas or by other ideas) and are recovering at least by the end of the 80s. However during the early 80s the economic problems come to climax and causes social unrest (to be dealt with by the states). Green policy becomes a concern amongst some and popularity of the idea surges however problems ensue due to economic troubles making green policy difficult to follow.
 * 90s: All states recover by the early 90s and steady growth happens from now onwards, energy is largely supplied by the gas and oil in the seas around Lovia and Lovia becomes energy self sufficient and the oil and gas that is surplus brings in extra wealth that fuels the decades boom, the services industries experiences the largest growth, taking the lead easily over the secondary industry. Centralisation is broken down to help the economy grow and the states enjoy their greatest amount of freedom for 40 years. Feminism comes back for round three and people are generally quite content.

Sounds fine to me. I think this period might have been a time of American influence on Lovia, but in terms of political history it was probably rather boring. :P --Semyon 17:19, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the 60's were a difficult time. See also: Asht Ilava. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:22, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

@70's miners: most mines were being closed or already closed by that time - adding up to the economic problems. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:58, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Sylvanian Flag


I am going to change the Sylvanian flag to a new one, the seal on the flag doesn't really work and isn't a symbol of sylvania like what should be on a flag. I've come up with two ideas so far. One that represents the grand mountains of Sylvania (the white mountain with red sun) looking over the lands (the navy background). I chose it because Sylvania has no real state symbols and so I think that making the state symbol the mountain with or without dawning sun would add an aspect to the State that has never been there before.



I also made this one which is centered around a tree. Keeping more in line with the traditional tree related features of the state. It represents the great trees of Sylvania that have stood since the state began and represents the ever living spirit of the people within it. This is my current preference and would represent the forming of a greater cultural identity in Sylvania and giving it real detail. Plus I have ideas to link this in with Semyons ideas and craft a better more detailed history of the State.

Be great to hear your thoughts on this Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 21:21, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

By the way these are just roughs as in when the final one is chosen I will make the edges of the parts smoother and make the colours a little less bold so they seem more natural. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 21:30, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

I've always wanted to see the Sylvania flag and seal change, so i'm pleased about this. I've always thought the other flags look better, so I'll vote the 3rd flag. Dave Leskromento


 * Personally I'm leaning towards the 4th flag but thanks for your reply :) Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 10:02, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I like #3 and #2 best. 77topaz (talk) 10:35, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll reword it. The ones that looks like trees are best but I am slightly leaning towards #3 because it has some extra detail in it. You are the governor so it's your choice though. Dave
 * See I think the green is maybe a bit too much and I prefer the boldness that comes from leaving the green out, I think that I'll probably choose number 4 unless someone raises a really good argument that changes my mind. I just feel at the moment that the tree and the blue background alone can represent Sylvania best. But I'm still on the fence for all of them. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 14:45, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Honestly I have to say that none are really beautiful, but neither is the current flag. Of all your choices I have to say no, 3 is the best, the green especially seems to represnt the state's natural side (the Emerald Highlands are green). But could I make a suggestion, what if you made the tree rounder and more symmetrical? HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:52, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Beauty in a flag comes from the idea it produces not by the quality of its seam. Number 3 certainly seems popular at least, although the tree in the centre already represents the natural side of the state (you can see why I'm still on the fence). Ah well you see there's going to be a story behind the tree on this flag and besides symetry in my opinion would make it feel inorganic and ugly and that doesn't mix well with trees, I actually tried it and it just didn't sit well with me. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 14:58, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I still feel 4 to be very bland, while the green in no. 3 makes it so much nicer. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:02, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * What you call bland I call straight forwards. If the green could mean something more than just the green parts of the state I might be persuaded but so far it's a little edgy. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:10, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * The green symbolizes the state;s natural beauty and the land, and it makes a nice contrast with the blue (for the ocean). HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:34, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * hmm, I think I'll see what other people think but it's at least given them a point. However in the other one the navy blue represents Sylvania, and the tree represents the Sylvanian forests and the everlasting spirit of the people within them. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:40, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * The blue better represents Lovia and the royalty, I think it was chosen on the previous flag aince the state was linked to these values. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:44, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Considering that it's a navy blue like the one from the flag it represents Liberal thought and freedom more than anything. Lovia is represented mainly by the pine and royalty by a crown without a cross. This state if anything has been least linked to supporting the crown (with many republicans calling it home) and to be honest Sylvania hasn't had a key defined culture or tradtion however I'm going to build upon that and the flag is the first step. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:51, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * All the other states except Clymene use blue in their flags, so keeping the green could be part of a tradition distinct from the rest of Lovia's. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:57, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed with the horton comment. BTW, the IDP was a rubbish party so I need a new party as a Seven Delegate, just thought i'd say it here because of the popular conversation. Dave Leskromento.
 * WHy not join Labour? HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:02, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Shameless. Why not go independent or tell people where you stand, I'd be happy to point you to a good party that fits you. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:10, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd be intrested in a party that hmmm, crime must be punished harshly, that will make this wiki more real life, Everyone in Lovia has got to be equal and, the government is too powerful. Dave.
 * On your crime issues I'd recommend: CNP (mine) and PL on your realism and equality issues, you'll find differeing opinions of how that should be carried out, on your government issues I'd recommend (going from left to right in order of those in favour of least government first and most government last): CNP, PL, LDP, CCPL, Labour, CPL.nm and there you go so in all honesty, I'd have to recommend you have a look at CNP and PL but look at the other parties I've linked in case you see something you like. Hope I've helped. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:26, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * My final desicion comes down to flaw and history and if a 'real user' is already employed in that position. I will look and take down notes. Dave


 * One last question about the State Elections? Say If i joined PL and the leader, Chris, was the Sylvania Delegate, he went in the elections, Would I still be allowed to enter the Seven elections (having a house) or can there only be one person per party? Dave Leskromento

I think we should keep the current fla. It is maybe too complex but every nation has it's unperfect thingies Pierlot McCrooke 16:20, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * True but we don't lose much by chaning the flag especially if we can expand upon the spirit of Sylvania. Besides the Tree flag with navy blue background and green stripes seems popular. :) Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:26, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

I ain't gonna read all of this discussion; you guys surely left something to read here :P My preference goes to 3. 1 and 2 are not "flag-worthy" and 4 is way too monotone. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:43, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, 3 is nice, but the tree looks like half a mushroom or an ostriche's ass. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:49, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's true, but Kunarian promised to improve the accepted design, so :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:53, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Horton find me a good looking tree that you can make into a flat colour and from which I can make it visibly a tree and then you can criticise what I can produce. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 17:59, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Like you said before, round out the edges a bit. You can make a tree without having to keep all that detail. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 18:32, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I will clean it up but seriously, that way of criticising (call it blunt or brutal) is what discourages some users. At least do it in a way without directly insulting what I've done. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 18:36, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Here's a new cleaner and finer design, while still a little complex, I believe that it is okay to have a certain level of detail if the flag requires it. And another (maybe better?) idea. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 20:18, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Please no. The tree is just too detailed to be on a flag, even if you did remove some of the fine edges. I'd say design 1 or design 2. Since people seem to like the green edging, which I have no problem with, so 2. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:23, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, seeming as I can't find any really viable tree options I came up with this idea. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 21:12, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

If you add green bands to the snowflake it would look amazing. HORTON11 : •  21:16, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * It does look like a snowflake actually, but it's supposed to be a ring of oak leaves (still keeping the woods theme). And here's the one with the green bands, hope you enjoy them. Oh and I brightened the green, too dull before. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:28, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Contra to everything except number four. Like the old one personally Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:48, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * The number four with the tree or the number four with the oak leaves? either of those are my personal leanings. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:52, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Of the oak leaves ones, I like the one on the left better. The versions with the large tree are overly complicated. 77topaz (talk) 23:16, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

No, it looks like a broccoli... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:15, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Marcus, you like flags that consist of a solid background with an overly complex seal on them? Those are not real flags, they are lazy flags. ;) —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:45, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

They're American-type flags. :P 77topaz (talk) 21:44, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Vote for the Flag of your preference
RIGHT A VOTE HAD TO BE CALLED. These are the only two flags I am currently considering and while I could be a big mean old Governor and choose what I want I think this is the right way to do things voting will close tomorrow night:

Oak Leaf Flag without Bands:


 * - Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:26, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I know voting already closed, but I have to have my say. :P Simplicity = sophistication. What do those green stripes really add? --Semyon 15:06, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well I think we agreed that they represent the green lands of lovia all around, while the blue background represents Sylvania and the ring of oak leaves represent the everlasting forests that stood here before Lovia was even discovered and still stand now. I still prefer this one but I'll work with the other. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:16, October 23, 2012 (UTC)



Oak Leaf Flag with Bands:

Well I seem to be slightly outnumbered here, heh. HOWEVER IAM GUVNOR SO I SAY THE FIRST! no, we shall have the democratic choice! Long live Sylvania! Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 23:32, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * - 77topaz (talk) 23:30, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Happy65
 * --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:15, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * - the fanciest flag so far. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 12:36, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * - hard to decide between with and without, but in the end I think that this is best. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:45, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Simply brilliant. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:26, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Long Live Sylvania!  Happy65   Talk CNP   20:09, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Deputy governor of Seven
I am aware that I am the only citizen who wants to be deputy governor of Seven and after reading the Constitution Article 8 I realized that in order to be a deputy governor you are required to recover three votes and be nominated, so I think it would be in order for Congress to vote on me becoming the deputy governor or not. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 02:39, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought we were going to do a revote in of the other states. If so, we could also open a voting thing for you as Dep. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:42, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well in Kings the vote was decided, so the only problem with the election ended up being the deputy governor of Seven. As far as I know, I'm the only one who wants to run, but I am required to have three votes by the Constitution. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 19:48, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that Happy wants to try and become deputy too. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 20:08, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that we are going to have a revote in Seven but with Semyon guaranteed as governor. This way, we'll have a smaller election in which people who are not already a gov or dep in another state and are a resident of Seven can run to become the dep of Seven. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:54, October 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, I am intrested in being the Deputy Governor of Seven. CNP! Happy65 LogoCNP.png

Ceol
i made a Lovia-lioke thing called Ceol. Please have a look and tell me what u think!!!! http://islandnation.wikia.com/wiki/Islandnation_Wiki

Masterire UCD 08:05 am 19/10/12

I think most people know of it by now. :P 77topaz (talk) 10:37, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * How can you say such a thing when the most important person has not yet seen the page? Let me honour your little wiki with a visit. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 10:48, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I think Dimi's not visited it yet. :) 77topaz (talk) 11:22, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well played, sir, well played... The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 11:37, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

A naughty question
Ummm, I was thinking of establishing a pornographic film production company. Is that acceptable or I've gone too far??--George the Greek (talk) 12:57, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * As long as you stick to description and don't try to visualize them with images of what goes on in those movies... you should be fine. Of course, as a member of the conservative CCPL, I would be obliged to be disagree with the choice of films your company would produce. It's an interesting idea, that's for sure. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 13:16, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I won't do anything nasty. But I'd like the opinion of other users, too.--George the Greek (talk) 13:26, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * You'll get plenty of opinions, Zorba. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 13:33, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * The glorious First Consul of Rome has right. Don't add pictures or movies about, euhm ... pornography. Euh ... yeah, a weird topic. But of course, why not? Wabba The I (talk) 15:05, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I still don't know if I'm gonna make it... I find it a little weird too. Maybe later.--George the Greek (talk) 17:32, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not a surprise: . Pornography should be illegal - distribution and production. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:41, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * personally, but overall . —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:21, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Not sure what "Zorba" means. 77topaz (talk) 23:49, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * He's referring to a famous dog. :) --Semyon 20:38, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

I believe he wants to make immoral films :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:17, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Contra but a litle bit neutral. In every country, there are illegal pornographic studios. Why not Lovia? But yeah, I'm against it sometimes! Wabba The I (talk) 10:27, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not illegal! There are numerous such companies in USA and according to a BBC documentary I recently watched, porn industry is really extensive and profitable.--George the Greek (talk) 12:19, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course it's extensive and profitable; it's also profitable to steal from a supermarket and that's extensive as well :P But 'right, I know what you're saying. My Christian background simply can't vote pro :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:23, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Last time I checked, this was the Pub and not the Parliament. So we can vote against this as much as we want but unless we make it into a law and take it to the Second Chamber, we have absolutely no ground to forbid George from persuing his plans. However immoral they may be in the eyes of us conservatives. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 12:31, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * PS: I am on the subject myself. Not to allow our new friend to start this company would be against the law. Someone needs to be the Devil's advocate in order to make sure things are done according to the (law) book. Even if it's against our book. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 12:34, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'm against pornography, but those are because of my Christian views; however, I think we would have to pass some sort of law against it. As far as I'm aware there is no law that can stop someone from making a company or film. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 21:25, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't actually comment on this before, because I thought my views would be pretty obvious. :P IC I'm opposed, but OOC not, because as Oos says, no-one can stop you creating a page. Though I hardly need say that if there's going to be detailed plot description on the page it'll be deleted. --Semyon 09:47, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 18:45, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

Retroactive undoing of removal of local and sub local governments
What do you guys think of retroactively undoing the removal of local and sub local governments that was done in the 2010 State Reform? Just to clarify, if this can't be retroactive, I'm probably opposed. If it can be retroactive, then what I'm thinking is that mayors (and other government positions of cities) and chairpeople of neighborhoods (and hamlets) will be re-added. The reason for this is that I don't like how we had mayors for over a century and then suddenly in 2010 we decide "we don't need them anymore". It makes no sense. Being in local and sub local government would still just be an extra thing, sort of like the Speaker of the Congress. Yet, it would make us more realistic. Remember, I want this to be retroactive. I know, it might be strange to undo things retroactively, but it'll make more sense if we do. Please consider. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:35, October 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * I personally don't like retroactive changes. What the 2010 State Reform could be explained as was the centralisation practiced by the leftist governments, which could be an explanation for why they lost so many votes (that and Yuri retiring) as people realised that they wanted and needed these lower level government offices. We can make a reform again easily that not only includes devolving powers to the states but the inserting of Mayors and such again. And again retroactive changes really don't fit with the idea of Lovia when they are on the user interactive decisions. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 13:50, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'd say most of us agree that it messed up history. Again, the "Even though we've had them for over a century, mayors are a waste of space!" thing just makes no sense. It would just be strange to get rid after being in existence so long. I could settle for a non-retroactive change, but I would strongly prefer to have it be retroactive. I can understand the deletion of the state courts and state police after the centralization of Lovia in 2008, but getting rid of chairpeople and especially mayors is a stretch, and I would like to see them back without a break in their history. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:56, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea. it does seem a bit weird to have mayors for so long and them stop them. Besides, most cities i know have local government. Daembrales (talk) 17:37, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see a reason for the local governments though... I see your point, but I don't think that its valid enough of a reason. We could have Congress vote on it, or have each state decide individually. That would show what everyone thinks of the idea. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 21:21, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree. The entire mayor system was a mess. The free functions didn't work out: chairmen were fired by mayors, by governors, and by the king... And there really was no need for them. In most states, there only was one town, so the mayor had exactly the same role as the governor. What we should do: reinforce the position of the governor. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:22, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

That still doesn't fix the random removal of over a century of mayors. Also, I just want them to be a position for show--not really do much, but just to keep realisticness. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:45, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

We should stick to the ceremonial role f.e. in Oceana, then I'm pro: mayors never really had executive, but just advisory roles in the communities they lead. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:30, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

Charleston Design
Hello everybody. It's Professor Dave Leskromento here from Charleston University. As part of a community project, I would like to ask you to take part in a Logo and Seal design project. There are only two rules, 1, it must have a castillo tower on it and 2, if you are designing a seal, it must say Charleston University on it. Also, swearing is not allowed on either the seal or flag. Now you know the rules, go ahead and be creative.

Note: These are examples and therefore the seal does not say Charleston University and they do not have a Castillo Tower on them.

Flag entries
Since the university is in Charleston, the Castillo Tower symbol featured on the town seal should probably be featured on the university seal etc. Also, why does there need to a penguin? 77topaz (talk) 00:07, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. A penguin is not very Lovian è. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:10, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

I don't speak limburgish very well, you know. Happy65

You'll learn it :P But yeah, I agree I don't understand the penguin too. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:24, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

I changed that. I was planning to open a big department for research in Antarctica on penguins but I decided to not do that as it would waste too much money.Happy65

I use è to replace "after all" or "you see". —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:39, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. That's the only thing I knew in Limburgish. Happy65

LAP + LDP = SLP?
Hey, I was just thinking about merging LAP and LDP to create a more general "Social Liberal Party". The reason I left the LAP alive for so long because I was still hoping on Percival and Lars to return, but it's clear now that they're gone probably forever. Would anyone mind if I merged them, and possibly the Lovian Alliance if Horton agrees, into a unified party? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:10, October 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * That would be a good thing to do indeed :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:51, October 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree. Shouldn't we vote on this at the Forum:Second Chamber though? Happy65 LogoCNP.png
 * No, I think it would be undemocratic if Congress would decide our political parties :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:57, October 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * I understand, so party agreement. Should we do it like this so we can have both sides permission for a merger?
 * {| border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" class="article-table" style="width: 500px; "

! scope="col"|Name ! scope="col"|Leader ! scope="col"|Confirmiation from leader
 * Liberal Arts Party
 * Lars Washington [1]
 * Yes [2]
 * Liberal Democratic Party
 * TimeMaster [3]
 * Yes [4]
 * Lovian Alliance
 * Horton
 * Unconfirmed
 * }
 * [1] Lars Washington is gone forever so the desicion is down to TimeMaster
 * [2] Leaders please change this to yes if you confirm.
 * [4] Leaders please change this to yes if you confirm.
 * [3] TimeMaster is the leader of both, so once he has confirmed confirmation on both sides, the social arts party will officialy have merged.
 * [2] Leaders please change this to yes if you confirm.
 * [4] Leaders please change this to yes if you confirm.
 * [3] TimeMaster is the leader of both, so once he has confirmed confirmation on both sides, the social arts party will officialy have merged.


 * If there's a problem with this, please tell me, I'm pretty new around here. Happy65 LogoCNP.png
 * Yeah, I think it's up to TM really. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:00, October 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, Happy I know it may seem a bit wierd but you'll get used to things soon. You see Lars isn't here anymore and Timemaster has practically assumed command of the LAP as well as the LDP so he can do what he wishes really. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 10:04, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

What a cute table. :3 Anyway, I'll merge them now. Still waiting on confirmation from Horton, though. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:58, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

Realistic maps
One thing that always bothered me is how the interactive "maps" that we have in almost every hamlet to city on this wiki each contain far less homes than enough to house the local populous. Are 80% of Lovian citizens homeless, or do all of the player characters just happen to be living within a three-block radius of each other. I feel that we should expand and place more homes/minor apartment buildings in each area to expand and be more realistic. Instead of having each sign read "for sale" if it hasn't been claimed by a player character, I think it would be best to leave them blank until a player claims them, and if not, we just assume it is the residence of some NPC. It wouldn't be too much trouble for me too help out in large part if you guys agree with what I am saying. — Christopher Costello  (Pikapi • Chat  • What's up ) 19:57, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

Interactive maps are another relic from the age of Libertas where interactive companies, such as Nimmanswolk, were commonplace. They don't make sense and we have many more fake people than real people here, but they are interactive, which is rather nice. I don't think we should add more plots; instead, we should just only consider the streetplan of these cities to be realistic, and not the people living in them. Though, that's not to mean we need to prohibit giving NPCs a home on the map. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:00, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

I'd keep the current situation. It's not workable to create maps on a real scale. I tried it in Reptin and it didn't work out :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:41, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

If it was my choice, there are not maps like this. Pikapi has right: most of them are inhabited by users (which have already three homes sometimes) or sometimes not real characters. Sometimes shops, parks, companies ... but it is really unrealistic. Maybe we just have to do that only residents can get a home in a map? Wabba The I (talk) 17:00, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

Very much. Now we can still give addresses for companies, which will be impossible then. And: changing all these maps is going to be a hell of a task and actually they'll become useless, because they will all contain the same residential spaces... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:02, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Iam to the cirrnt maps, very unrealistic Pierlot McCrooke 14:36, October 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * No, I mean shops and houses for users and companies and parks and what ever but not houses for 'not user-characters'. But who cares, let it be. Wabba The I (talk) 15:28, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Then I agree with you, also the who cares part :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:43, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Some Polling for the Lovian Times
I thought it might be interesting to do some polling, we haven't done it in a while and I think it might be interesting to do it in the old fashioned style of having the parties with at least 5 seats and their leaders as options in these polls as well as the rest in other. Feel free to poll, they are anonymous and will be put in the Lovian Times later on with a full long and well detailed analysis. DO NOT EDIT POLLS FOR ANY REASON, EVEN IF THERE IS A SPELLING MISTAKE.

Elections


 * If a Federal Election happened tomorrow who would you give a major vote to?
 * Labour Party - 3 Votes
 * Conservative Christian Party of Lovia - 8 Votes
 * Social Liberal Party - 2 Votes
 * Positive Lovia - 2 Votes
 * Conservative Nationalist Party - 3 Votes
 * Other - 3 Votes


 * If a Federal Election happened tomorrow who would you give a minor/support vote to?
 * Labour Party - 5 Votes
 * Conservative Christian Party of Lovia - 3 Votes
 * Social Liberal Party - 5 Votes
 * Positive Lovia - 2 Votes
 * Conservative Nationalist Party - 5 Votes
 * Other - 1 Vote


 * If a Federal Election happened tomorrow who would you most want to be Prime Minister?
 * Marcus Villanova - 2 Votes
 * Oos Wes Ilava - 12 Votes
 * William Krosby - 3 Votes
 * Christopher Costello - 2 Votes
 * Lukas Hoffmann - 2 Votes
 * Other - 1 Vote

General Issues


 * Which party do you most trust on the issue of the economy?
 * Labour Party - 2 Votes
 * Conservative Christian Party of Lovia - 7 Votes
 * Social Liberal Party - 3 Votes
 * Positive Lovia - 2 Votes
 * Conservative Nationalist Party - 2 Votes
 * Other - 3 Votes


 * Which party do you most trust on the issue of state powers?
 * Labour Party - 3 Votes
 * Conservative Christian Party of Lovia - 6 Votes
 * Social Liberal Party - 2 Votes
 * Positive Lovia - 1 Vote
 * Conservative Nationalist Party - 5 Votes
 * Other - 2 Votes


 * Which party do you most trust on the issue of health and welfare?
 * Labour Party - 5 Votes
 * Conservative Christian Party of Lovia - 4 Votes
 * Social Liberal Party - 4 Votes
 * Positive Lovia - 2 Votes
 * Conservative Nationalist Party - 2 Votes
 * Other - 2 Votes


 * Which party do you most trust on the issue of transportation?
 * Labour Party - 2 Votes
 * Conservative Christian Party of Lovia - 7 Votes
 * Social Liberal Party - 3 Votes
 * Positive Lovia - 1 Vote
 * Conservative Nationalist Party - 3 Votes
 * Other - 2 Votes

State Issues


 * Which party do you most trust on the issue of the Oceana overpopulation?
 * Labour Party - 1 Vote
 * Conservative Christian Party of Lovia - 12 Votes
 * Social Liberal Party - 1 Vote
 * Positive Lovia - 1 Vote
 * Conservative Nationalist Party - 1 Vote
 * Other - 3 Votes


 * Which party do you most trust on the issue of Train Village repair?
 * Labour Party - 3 Votes
 * Conservative Christian Party of Lovia - 4 Votes
 * Social Liberal Party - 0 Votes
 * Positive Lovia - 1 Vote
 * Conservative Nationalist Party - 9 Votes
 * Other - 2 Votes

Approval


 * Are you happy with the way the current government is operating?
 * Very happy - 1 Vote
 * Happy - 6 Votes
 * Indifferent - 4 Votes
 * Unhappy - 7 Votes
 * Very unhappy - 0 Votes


 * Are you happy with the way the current Prime Minister is running the government?
 * Very happy - 1 Vote
 * Happy - 9 Votes
 * Indifferent - 6 Votes
 * Unhappy - 2 Votes
 * Very unhappy - 0 Votes


 * Do you think someone else could do a better job at running the government?
 * Yes - 2 Votes
 * Indifferent - 11 Votes
 * No - 6 Votes

Comments
Throw your comments here! Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 22:27, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

I've started it off, please vote, we need to know your opinions! :D Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 22:43, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

You can guess who I voted for. I also support the retroactive removal of TV for this reason: the name sucks and it's just a strange town. And then we can create a new town in its place with a new culture and new name. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:49, October 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Definitely an idea, but I will be doing something about Train Village as Governor, it's a major issue I want to deal with and will most likely include making it smaller and more focused. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:51, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well my votes for other were for MCCP, which is kinda CCPL, but I put votes into other on some of those.

--Quarantine Zone (talk) 22:57, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

You know this stuff is already getting interesting :D I can't wait to see the polls at the end of the week. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 23:06, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

I voted mostly PL, but the CNP, SLP, and CCPL were some of my other choices. Also, thanks Matt. — Christopher Costello  (Pikapi • Chat  • What's up ) 23:26, October 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Glad you voted Costello! Also I haven't mentioned but I'll probably be analysing the current positions of parties individually with the Lovian Times article. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:31, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm going to Close the polls a little earlier than I said, seeming as almost 20 people have voted now, they'll close at 10 :) Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:00, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Interesting to see most people vote CCPL in the first poll and in the issue polls, where they have most or second most votes everywhere :P 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 17:11, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Probably the center position I guess :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:21, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Cool poll! i voted for SLP for most things, but Labour, CNP, CCPL, or other on other issues. Daembrales (talk) 20:49, October 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * I know it's just like the ones in real life :D and I'm glad if we got your votes anywhere. I'm just closing the polls now so you got here just in time :) Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:01, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Unhappy with government, but the people trust the CCPL on most things. The elections will be very interesting this year. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:19, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say unhappy, I'd say people have highly mixed opinions, but people like Oos.and a large amount think that someone else wouldn't be able to do a better job. I think this poll raises some questions on what people could be unhappy about though. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 01:10, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ow no, I vote that somebody could perhaps (well... probably would be better :P) do it better than me :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:30, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think humility will only make people want you to be Prime Minister more. :L Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 11:08, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Unhappy with government? The most popular choice was 'unhappy,' yes, but only if you don't count 'very happy' together with 'happy,' which is dodgy statistics. --Semyon 12:47, October 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * I know, it's strange. I wonder what the problem is Happy65 LogoCNP.png

Islam
Our new co-patriot, Rakham Tarik Al-Asmari, got me interested in the Muslim minority of Lovia. There is LMB, but no space for a mosque. What shall we do my friends??--George the Greek (talk) 22:10, October 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * Government shall do nothing, the muslim community however can gather money together and build their own Mosque, it doesn't have to be in the city, according to my statistics they are mostly in Noble City but a reasonable amount reside in Train Village and Charleston, so really you could set it up in a place where the majority could easily worship, or have a southern and northern mosque. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:46, October 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, the mosque should be in the city (I was thinking of a federal estate). Anyway, where can I find statistics about the Muslims??--George the Greek (talk) 22:57, October 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * I was thinking Algebra (being a Muslim corporation and all), would sponser the construction of a grand mosque in a purpose-built town for the Muslim population in Kings. Of course I forgot who was the governor even after Topaz told me... >.< ((ლ( (ಠ益ಠ) ((ლ( 22:59, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Statistics about muslims in Sylvania are right in front of me and will soon be on the census page. You can't build it on a federal estate, Lovia has a seperation of church and state and so I couldn't approve it, but I'll look for a suitable place. And that's a great idea Viva, then you can go the whole mile with it. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:04, October 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * Great. I'll get to work on it soon. ((ლ( (ಠ益ಠ) ((ლ( 23:08, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ummm, I think there are about 500 Muslims in Lovia and not all of them in one single state. The mosque can't be enormous.--George the Greek (talk) 23:11, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * The relgion in Lovia page is outdated George. there are 2,000 Muslims in Sylvania alone, barely any in Oceana, 500 in Seven and no idea about the other states. And choose somewhere in Artista, it's the best place, then you can really make it quite decorated and elaborate if you want and that way it'll fit the neighborhoods style. In Artista and the adjacent neighborhoods there are around 750 Muslims which is almost half the Muslim population in Noble city so I'd say it's a pretty good place for a mosque. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:15, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why so many? Where are they from?? And there's no space in Artista, unless we "sucrifice" a house.--George the Greek (talk) 23:27, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why so many? That is barely any 2.7% of the population in Sylvania is nothing, in fact it's quite standard considering our immigration policy. They mainly come from Europe. Do you have a problem with there being that many Muslims? and there's plenty of room in Artista, the houses are all up for grabs and then you change the colour to administrative and label it as being owned by the Lovian Muslim Brotherhood. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:50, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I would like to explain that the Muslim population is offered an incentive to move to the planned town for them. Would you say $15-20,000 US is a good enough reason to uproot and move into a town with fellow believers? ((ლ( (ಠ益ಠ) ((ლ( 23:46, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know if they would exactly, Lovia doesn't exactly discriminate and they've probably lived there for a generation at least and built a strong community in their areas like they have in other countries. Plus I didn't even know such a place had been approved yet. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:50, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, Kunarian, I've got no problem with the Muslims, I'm working a lot on them right now. Also, I think there's no reason to establish a Muslim neighbourhood or something. Dear Viva, we should cooperate on that. I don't know what time is it in your countries, but I'm gonna sleep right now. Bye!--George the Greek (talk) 00:15, October 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you might have misunderstood me and jumped the gun, because I asked you if you had a problem with there being THAT MANY muslims as in whether you had a problem with the statistics, I wasn't for a moment suggesting that you had a problem with Muslims themselves, and I'm sorry if that is the way it came across. And it's very late in my country too, but I'm a night person, goodnight enjoy the rest. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 00:22, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

@Kunarian: Yeah in Oceana it's neglectable, about 75 people or so :P @Artista: It's not the best choice. Artista is like Bohemian neighborhood. I'm not sure whether that would work out well with a muslim community :P There's is still more than enough room in the central south area of Mandarin Village, several federal properties in Trading Quarter, and empty areas in Little Frisco. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:39, October 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's understandable. I think mandarin village is the next best choice personally, I mean it's quite hard to place muslims, they are such a minority. :P Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 09:54, October 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hahaha :P For inspiration on where to place certain demographic groups: you could look at what kind of people bought their homes and where :) F.e. if you find a house bought by Semyon, that neighborhood could have a higher number of Russians than average :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:27, October 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * In order to decide where Muslims reside, you have to work out where they originally migrated from. The only main groups I can think of are the Bosnians and a few Russians of Tatar ancestry in Novosevensk - nevertheless, there's likely a Arab minority in the large cities, including people like Ahmad Benzador and Ali Suleimani. --Semyon 10:56, October 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * @OWTB: Haha, in that case we'd have lots of Swedes in Plains! 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 11:46, October 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't oppose Swedish being a regional language in Lovia to be honest :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:56, October 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * On the part of where to put the mosque, where do I build it? ((ლ( (ಠ益ಠ) ((ლ( 18:07, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I will set out a place in the East River neighborhood I'm building in Newhaven. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:23, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * That would be the third new proposal-neighbourhood this week. :P (Semyon and Horton are also building new neighbourhoods in their respective states) 77topaz (talk) 20:30, October 27, 2012 (UTC)

i think we should have a french population in lovia. Daembrales (talk) 00:56, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why? The French were in America because they had colonies. The didn't have a colony in Lovia :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:11, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * You could say the same thing about the Dutch, to be fair. I think it'd be nice to have some francophones. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:23, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Check out the Sylvanian census there's a reasonable french population and a good amount of french speakers due to Beglian Walloons. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 20:15, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really, considering Lovia was found by a Flemish guy... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:42, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * But that's why there are many more Dutch speakers. Don't worry I'm not changing history on that matter. I'm just pointing out that the french aren't exactly a minority like say muslims are. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 13:12, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

Sports
We should reorganize our sports, my friends. The soccer league seems good (though not perfect), but what about the other sports? Boules is our national sport, but it isn't developed and basketball too. Recently, Happy65 established LIHA. What should we do??--George the Greek (talk) 13:02, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

Inactive
Just for say I am inactive for five days! Wabba The I (talk) 17:43, October 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright, we'll see you back then! Have fun! :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:27, October 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah. Have fun and enjoy yourself :P Happy65 LogoCNP.png
 * Assuming you're on holiday, have fun! If not, well, try and have fun anyway. :P --Semyon 20:13, October 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe Belgium has its holidays this or next week, so... :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 20:31, October 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes it is currently herfstvakantie or autumn vacation in Belgium! I was on stage by my athletics group in the Ardennes but I'm back! Wabba The I (talk) 16:17, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

Bus lines
Alright, time to get something done :P I almost finished the Oceana bus service (apart from Scotland-Overbanken because Overbanken has not been finished yet :P). It would be great if we could start working on the train service, but before that can be done, we need the bus services in the other states (most notably: Sylvania and Kings) to be finished as well. So, if the local governors could do that, it would be great. If you are not willing to do this, then I'll take over, because I want this to be done :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:46, October 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * You know I want to work on this so I'll try and get things started today and done before the end of the weekend. I'm glad we are finally starting to get some small details sorted :D Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 11:03, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's the spirit! :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:15, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

Some observations
77topaz (talk) 09:26, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * There are no shopping centers or apartment buildings anywhere in Seven.
 * Kinley and Sofasi are almost completely full.
 * The Jamaican Embassy in Lovia is referenced in the Foreign Relations article as being a building in Downtown. There is no such building; the Embassy currently, effectively has no location.
 * Canterbury, Kinley has sea on its west side, while Old Kinley, located directly south of it, has sea on its south side and south side only, with streets leading off to the west. The only explanation I can create is that there must be a peninsula to the west of Old Kinley.
 * The kinley issue is addressed to. If we'd place a mall in the new neighborhood, both issues will be fixed :)
 * Yeah.. I'm afraid we don't have enough space for all embassies, definitely not in Downtown NC. The local Governor should take a look at it.
 * Yeah, I agree. Semyon can fix this :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:20, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "the issue is addressed to"? Is Semyon already going to give Kinley a new neighbourhood, or do you mean something else? Also, can I add GoldenDisc to the shopping center maps? 77topaz (talk) 10:43, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * @addressed to: yes, we're working on a new neighborhood in Seven :)
 * @goldendisc: sure you can! :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:46, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Does the Seven neighbourhood have a page already? Also, some of this page should probably be archived. 77topaz (talk) 10:52, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Jamaican embassy is not referenced to being anywhere on the Foreign Relations article, it is just mentioned to be in Lovia. I'll have a look around for where it is. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 11:26, October 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * I've searched a while and I can't find it. Happy65 LogoCNP.png
 * Maybe we could place the Jamaican embassy in the new neighbourhood. 77topaz (talk) 21:35, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * I personally think we should have no Jamaican embassy. It's too minor of a country. We should simply have embassies with the active wikinations and some (10 maybe?) major real countries, such as China and America. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:40, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with everything. Personally I think Lovia should have seperate embassies to the USA, China (as Time said), Several south american countries (Columbia, Ecuador, Peru, Chile, Argentina and Brazil, basically our big trading countries), Mexico and Japan. These are the countries I think are important to Lovia and the ones we actually trade with and so are the countries that affect Lovia. They'll be in the foreign affairs section of my manifesto too. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:31, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * There's the Embassy Center, the Pacific Tower and the Brunant and Maores. I don't know of any other already-existing embassies. 77topaz (talk) 22:34, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we can make new Embassies for the important nations I listed then move other minor but more important than the other minor nations embassies into the Embassy center. However Brunant and Maores are important culturally so we should leave them as seperate embassies. And may I just add that your Pacific tower idea was a great way of adding in embassies without taking up a ton of space. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:54, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! So where do you think we should put the new embassies? 77topaz (talk) 02:09, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * In the two embassy centers, probably. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:20, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * They're both kind of full already :P 77topaz (talk) 02:37, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Then, we can make another.  Happy65   Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 18:28, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed, that's what I'm doing. Currently it is called Amazon Tower, but I'm planning to move it to Mandarin Village and rename it the Eastern Star Tower, with primarily Asian embassies. 77topaz (talk) 20:28, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Can I do so? 77topaz (talk) 01:52, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the Jordan Luton stuff distracted everyone, so I'll wait a bit longer. 77topaz (talk) 03:39, October 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'm taking it nobody disagrees. 77topaz (talk) 03:32, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

InterBus Is back
Thanks to Villanova Inc. People around Lovia now have the right to cheap transportation and to go anywhere. Check out the new InterBus! Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:01, October 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well considering the situation you have in Lovia, I'd say that your company must be paying people nothing unless the monthly pass is a rip off. assuming you have a full standard bus that runs one line a day you end up with and an average estimated income of 146.25 lovian dollars (obviously more for populated areas and less for unpopulated areas), considering that one line requires 6 til around 7 operations (actual working time is around 12 hours), the driver has a minimum wage of (for one day) 168 lovian dollars, causing an instant loss. And then you don't even consider paying for fuel or mechanics. You've got to raise prices or cut costs if you want to do things simply.


 * Other than that though it's a great company that's reasonable in how much it makes although the choice to have the dangerous bendy buses is questionable. I hope to watch this company develop. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:15, October 27, 2012 (UTC)




 * Oh Costello :L Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:52, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I understood wait you said, I increased the rate to 2.50 and the montly pass 130 dollars. Lets say 20 people get on a bus paying 2.50, 50 dollars. Bus driver gets paid 12.00 an hour, 38 dolars left. Gasoline would be about 20 dollars, 18 left and the mechanics 11.50 an hour i'm left with 6.50 in profit. Not good but Villanova Inc. turns a large profit on other things. Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:34, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's an improvement, however those drivers and mechanics are still getting paid dirt cheap (plus the mechanic must be paid 12.00 an hour, it's in the law) and that Gasoline goes at about L$4.71 per gallon thanks to US inflation and pumped up prices. However if as you say, Villanova Inc turns a big profit then at worst you could subsidise the deficit with profits from elsewhere. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 01:40, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Still with that let's say 13.50 for bus drivers and mechanicss totalling 27 dollars and 20 dollars for gasoline, im guessing at that figure because i have no idea. There is still 3 dollars left over. Go wild. Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:52, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

Wikia sidebar
Hey, just wondering, was the Wikia sidebar disabled on this wiki or is it something that I can't find on my personal css. I really don't care, I'm just asking because I can't find out why it doesn't appear for me. I just want to know so that I can find out how to enable it for myself. — Christopher Costello  (Pikapi • Chat  • What's up ) 18:38, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

Are you using Monobook or Wikia Style? If you're talking about wikia style, I think wikia disabled it two years ago. If you are talking about Monobook, it should still be there. On Wikia Style, it was moved to the top center. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   07:35, October 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * No, I mean the sidebar on the right that is part of Oasis. — Beer.png <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 13:57, October 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't seem to have Oasis on my settings. I only have monobook and Wikia Style. Sorry. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 08:17, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

Settlement for Location
Apparently the settlement of User:Crystalbeastdeck09/Hamlet Maps is not wanted in Sylvania. Would any state like to take this up? It's a nice farming/college town with hard workers and well educated people. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:50, October 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Marcus I'm sorry, I just want to maintain a certain level of quality and realism. On top of that I've drawn up maps and settlements, I wouldn't mind if you realistically expanded on the settlements I've set. If you want to keep it completely your own however I think planning a new place for the settlement is for the best. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:02, October 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand now in hindsight, that it would make more sense in Seven or Oceana. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:14, October 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * They do tend to have a better fit for the kind of culture you're going for. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:16, October 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not Oceana, the town is lutheran, that would give yet another point to fight about :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:45, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

I like the town but not the name and the seal myself. It could fit in Clymene, Kings, or Sylvania. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:30, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

If kings wants it i'll propose it with a new seal and located in kings. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:24, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

Wikia nations
Where can I find all the fictional countries in wiki (not only those in UWN)??--George the Greek (talk) 22:09, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think a single page exists for that, currently. But I could give you a list of the ones I know. 77topaz (talk) 02:33, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

Visit Ceol its a wiki nation. CEOL (Masterire talk 09:20, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

I just made a list of wikinations see here. 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 19:11, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

Poll: Nova Times
Do you support the State Reform written by Kunarian: Yes, I support it Yes, but it could have some changes No Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:24, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

If reforms pass.
If Reform passes here is how the state legisatures would look like: (plus a message) I think this looks nice, again i'm in favor of the, one person - two states. Primarliy to solve the problem in Seven. I trust Seymon, great guy but maybe I want to help out there if I live there. And Seymon maybe in Oceana. Basically I think it would be a small solution to a problem. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:22, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Clymene
 * Horton - 11 Seats
 * George The Greek - 9
 * Kings
 * Krosby - 12 seats
 * Wabba - 8 seats
 * Oceana
 * Illava - 14 seats
 * Bart K - 6 seats
 * Seven
 * Seymon - 20 seats
 * Sylvania
 * Marcus - 8 seats
 * Kunarian - 9 seats
 * 77Topaz - 3 seats

Looks good. I think the councils are a good idea except the fact that for most there is just 1 or 2 people per state. That means the person with the most seats in the 1 or 2 seat states are guaranteed to win so it is no use. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   13:28, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

Do you support people being able to stand in two states: Yes No

To solve this problem once and for all. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 16:44, October 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * There doesn't seem to be enough popular support sorry Marcus. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:46, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * But not against, only six people or votes, were cast. Again move to the first chamber for larger discussion. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:56, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * For a constitutional ammendment, enough support is overwhelming support. And while people support the bill in its current format, it seems they would not if people where allowed to stand in more than one state and we must bow to the will of the people on this. I will move it to the first chamber when I think it is ready, finishing touches are being done, I will not rush it in to find one thing that is not right. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:05, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

This won't be applied retroactively, I thought. Still a bit skeptical on the entire bill. My vision for governors is for them to be nothing more than an local executive branch. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:21, October 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * No it won't I don't believe. And that's what Governors are in the bill btw, I haven't given them any other powers. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:26, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

I was a supporter before it was cool
Check User:Crystalbeastdeck09/Politics It's all about me wanting to support state's rights and councils back in 2011. Before it was cool too ^_^ Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:14, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Heh, still not a Confederate though :L Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:19, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sweet baby Jesus, hipsters in the parliament? Oh, you! The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 21:46, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Real?
It seems like some actually think wikinations are real; today I came across this and it just seemed so funny to find. HORTON11 : •  18:09, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Are you serious XD damn. wtf has happened.....Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:49, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Too slow, Horton, I posted a link to that site ages ago. :P --Semyon 18:52, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Six months and one day ago, to be precise. Here's the link. --Semyon 18:56, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Haha, I can't believe people would fall for that. I wonder what else there is online (apart from the wierd books). HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 19:03, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ever noticed this? (Read the talk page as well) 77topaz (talk) 23:24, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * LOL THIS PAGE IS NOT REAL CALM THE HELL DOWN !!!!!!!!!!!! XD Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:32, November 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * :P, I can't believe a professinonal website would think that Brunant is a real nation. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 09:02, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, all those pages are automatically generated :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:20, November 3, 2012 (UTC)ha
 * Well, yeah. Maybe we can find a lovian person on that website. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 09:21, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * There are: f.e. Oos Wes Ilava and Semyon Breyev :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:25, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yuri's page has a picture. :O I'm very jealous. --Semyon 09:31, November 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not on it. :O Why don't they put me on it? <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 09:35, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * - Tsss... :P @Happy: I don't know, perhaps new pages are no longer being generated. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:37, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Looking back on Oos's page, it says Walden as one of his positions. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:23, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Deh, I've been trying to hide that for years already :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:07, November 4, 2012 (UTC)

New Monarch
Dimitri is getting inactive, I'm not against him being monarch but I'm wondering if you think Lovia should have a new monarch. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   11:32, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

i don't think we should. After all, he's been inactive for more than a year, i think. Daembrales (talk) 13:07, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

and the monarch doesn't do much anyway. Daembrales (talk) 13:08, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

True, also dimi pops in time to time. Good guy when he was around, I still talk to him on FB. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:09, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, let's leave him as monarch. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   14:54, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * We can always ask him if he would be okay with someone else (Marcus or Oos or someone else he trusts) to occasionally make his character "do" stuff. Like, open a museum or hold a small speech. Little things, ceremonial things. Just to make things a bit more lively around here. And awesome you talk to him on fb, Mike! ;) The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 18:59, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should do that kind of thing without permission. After all, I've been doing it for over a year with Lars's, Harold's and Percival's characters. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:04, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, but at least asking for permission first wouldn't hurt, would it? Especially since some people here have Dimi on facebook, it wouldn't be too hard to get in touch with him. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 19:13, November 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think we maybe shouldn't replace the monarch but maybe we could have a temporary speaker who does Dimi's role. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:58, November 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think we're fine, as we haven't needed him. Let's just maintain the status quo. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:26, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with TM. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:07, November 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, yeah. I only started editing all the time after he went, so I don't know as much about his role and therefore will have to agree with TM. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 09:14, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually I think it's good to raise a question about this, but we don't really have an alternative yet :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:53, November 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, shall I bring it to the First Chamber? <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 10:01, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, this isn't a legislative thing as we are not going to put Dimitri out of his position. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:22, November 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay. I understand. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 11:27, November 4, 2012 (UTC)

The first day I edited was also Dimi's last day of activity on the wiki before he popped back in 6+ months later. Guess I came in at the end of an era è. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:46, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Or perhaps you made him leave :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:54, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Block TM, tell it to Dimi, and he'll come back :P 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 14:06, November 4, 2012 (UTC) Not serious è


 * That's something I've always wanted to do! :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:12, November 4, 2012 (UTC)

We should do a full scale investigation on the February-April 2011 activity collapse and user loss. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:11, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Wasn't that the time of Donia's reign? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:12, November 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * Maybe they all went to a new wikination somewhere else. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 16:59, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * My reign drove everyone away? Haha, I'm too hot to handle. Bunch of weak leftists sissies couldn't deal with a REAL man at the helm of the HMS Lovia! The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 17:10, November 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * :P Limburgish Letter Found, users: TimeMaster and 4kant,6. <font color="Teal">Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 17:27, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * As I said in June, it's time to change from Lovian English to Lovian Limburgish :P Or Lovian Swedish :P 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 17:38, November 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * P That would make the Limburgish Minority Party popular. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 17:39, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * I've always been ahead of everybody else è --O u WTBsjrief-mich 04:05, November 5, 2012 (UTC)

I am going to make my first limburgish contribution: è :P <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   07:25, November 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Haha, that's the spirit! :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:05, November 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * :P --Semyon
 * :P <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 15:57, November 5, 2012 (UTC)

Andy
Hey, I was just flipping through Special:ListUsers and I discovered that Andy (User:Intothewild) logged on on May 30 (or was it 24?), 2012. So he's not dead. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:47, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Or it's a relative. Anyway, I still don't dare to send him a mail with the question "Are you still alive? If so, why are you inactive?" :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:13, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * I doubt it would be a relative after such a long time. You could just send something like "How is your life?" if you wanted. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 11:59, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, he probably has his reasons not to come back. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:06, November 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * Dead? Btw, Special:ListUsers isn't always accurate. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 15:54, November 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * He suddenly went inactive, and then, apparently, he emailed someone saying he'd had a vehicle accident, and then went completely quiet. 77topaz (talk) 03:48, November 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * I heard. A truck accident. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 07:21, November 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Indeed, dead (literally). But since he logged on on May 30, he must have checked in and that means he's not dead (most likely). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 11:57, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * @Happy: Listusers is always correct, unless the servers are running behind. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:55, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * This is the second time this has been brought up, and we still don't know for sure. But something tells me that if he WOULD have logged in, being the nice guy he is, he would have dropped by and told us he is still in the land of the living. Him not doing so worries me. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 15:25, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nope, on my old wiki, ListUsers was up to 100 days non-accurate on when I logged in. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 15:56, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * I can understand if it took time to update, but not if it created a wholly fictional logging-in. I just sent him an email actually, so we'll see, though it's very possible he'll choose not to reply or simply have stopped using that address. --Semyon 17:22, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * @Happy: if you don't log out, you're still logged in; even if it's on another computer. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:02, November 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * I always log out all computers. Btw, it is when you last logged in, not when you were last on the wiki. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 18:06, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed, that was what I was trying to say. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:56, November 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, I understand. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:17, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * By the way, I was trying to say it was 100 days inaccurate one time on when I logged in. So basically, it took 100 days to say I was logged in on that day :P <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 07:47, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, that could've been a server issue :) On larger and younger wikis, it's sometimes a bit behind. Though 100 days is an awful lot :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:31, November 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yep. :P <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 09:34, November 10, 2012 (UTC)

Something for people to debate about
What are/will be Lovia's reaction to/actions in regards to the TPPA? 77topaz (talk) 08:44, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * You'd have to tell what TPPA is and what it stands for, first. Can't have an opinion about something I know nothing about... TPPA... Trendy Paper Preperation Association? The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 15:23, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement. 77topaz (talk) 19:31, November 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Give an explanation to all the coalition about what it is about. Thanks <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 20:04, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Link A, Link B. There's some controversy, recently. 77topaz (talk) 20:33, November 9, 2012 (UTC)

Other languages
Looking at the list, I see several major languages don't have wikinations. Strangely enough, several tiny half-languages do...

Now, about the missing languages. Spanish is the third most-spoken language in the world, yet it lacks a wikination. Now, I can write Spanish reasonably well, but not fluently. I do have some ideas. Anybody else here know Spanish?

(Also, what Chinese language is the Chinese wikination (Perpona) in?) 77topaz (talk) 04:37, November 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * I know from experience we need natives to do that. Several wikis failed because they were either written in bad language or the one half-speaker there lost interest. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:17, November 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * I know some Spanish-speaking users from Althistory, and also a Japanese (?) speaker, but no-one apart from them... we have a strange language-diversity. :P 77topaz (talk) 06:32, November 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, we do have our own Spanish-speaking (Guatemalan) person, Granero. He seems to be inactive, though. 77topaz (talk) 06:35, November 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * I speal Spanish well but not fluently. But I may see if I can convince Graqnero to return (but it'll be difficult). HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:56, November 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * I do also speak a little bit Spanish. But by far not enough to create a wikination :P 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 14:47, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * A shame, since Spanish is one of the most-spoken languages in the world. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:55, November 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed with Horton <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 16:21, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could attract more Spanish users if we actually start a Spanish wikination. Anybody interested in hearing my concept? 77topaz (talk) 00:38, November 10, 2012 (UTC)

Do you think I should start it? 77topaz (talk) 23:31, November 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * One was made by Granero a few months ago. You should probably adopt that one. Also, I don't think it would attract Spanish users to Lovia because Spanish isn't too common on the internet compared to German, English, etc. and they'd just contribute to the Spanish wiki. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:55, November 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Where is it located? 77topaz (talk) 01:00, November 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Here. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:04, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

And yet it moves!
I'll be damned, Lovia isn't dead yet.

Seems as if Oos, Villanova, and Semyon are still around, too. The name TimeMaster rings a bell; he might have been around during January of 2011, which was the last time I was truly active here. HRH and Yuri are apparently in de facto exile or something, it seems. :P

I got extra credit in my history class today for being the only to correctly attribute "simplify, simplify" to Thoreau, but I had no idea how the hell I knew that. And just a few moments ago, it hit me-- that was the motto of the WLP. So here I am, checking in. Who said Lovia didn't have practical uses?

I've kind of stopped with the whole creative stuff on the web; I'm rarely online much anymore, but if I am it's on the TalkChess forums; I've been playing around with a chess-playing AI these last few months (I've retired from my "work" into chess, a la Duchamp). I like how all my posts here are just check-ins now. I leave the work of fake politics to you guys. I certainly hope campaigning in Lovia isn't as annoying as it is in the US. :)

So how do things go in the land of Dutch-cum-American islanders? A RMACHEDES 02:42, November 9, 2012 (UTC)

I've been here since April 2011, to set the record straight. HRH comes only about twice a year and Yuri retired in December. Oos, Villanova, and Semyon are indeed still around. I believe the only other person besides those three from your era still here is Horton. Oh, and Pierlot and Donia, though they're only editing once every day or less.

Things are going well. State elections finished a while ago. Marcus was narrowly defeated in Sylvania by rightist Kunarian. Otherwise, incumbents retained their seats. Campaigning is quite hard, I'd say, but it's mostly just asking for votes è.

Plenty of new users - I'd say 10-15 have joined and are active or semi-active and 4 have "gotten into" the wiki (Quarantine Zone, 77topaz, George the Greek, Happy65).

Finally, would you please seriously consider rejoining? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:32, November 9, 2012 (UTC)

After a long time, we've finally seen a retired user pop in, right in a conversation a little up this page about what happened to our old users. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   07:27, November 9, 2012 (UTC)

By the way, Lovia is getting more and more users coming and less and less users going. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   18:04, November 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's good to see Lovia thriving. I don't quite have time to contribute, however; in the US as many of you might know, the college-application process puts emphasis on things you do in your free time that makes you a "leader" or something along those lines (which is utterly retarded, but never mind that). I'm spending most of my free time on stuff with artificial intelligence; I'm making a chess program for the science fair and doing quite a bit of work using Markov chains to try to emulate realistic text, and I've started trying to use Markov chains for creating music, too. Nonetheless, a special place in my heart always goes back to Lovia whenever I think of politics... I think the US needs a good dose of Yuri wit and utter Donia badassery from time to time. A RMACHEDES  06:33, November 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yuri has moved on, but Donia is still around under the account User:The Master's Voice. Good luck on your projects. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 07:14, November 12, 2012 (UTC)

I think Congress should start a commission on the wrong things of the Donia trial Pierlot McCrooke 13:44, November 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * @Pierlot: That sounds like an excellent idea! It would be a good thing to finally see justice be done, after having been denied it for so long. And for those not as interested in justice as I am, being personally involved and thus biased, it will also be interesting because of the political implications and possible results of such an investigation. We could call it the McCrooke Comission, since you are the man who is taking the initiative and who first raised awareness to this possibility. I like the idea already!
 * @Armachedes: Some projects are simply too good to die. Lovia is a great project, it has a very rich history, it has some very bright people. Some leave, others come back. Priorities shift, the old elite slowly being replaced by a new one. The political landscape is changing, laws being created or altered, and history is being written as we speak. Day by day, week by week, month by month. That is the power of Lovia: to know that you are a part of something that is alive, something thriving, something with a rich past aswell as a bright future. Something that was alive before you honoured it with your visit, and something that will still be around long after you decided to leave for whatever reasons you may have. That, to me, is the strength of Lovia. And that is why Lovia will continue to move, live, thrive. For a very long time to come.


 * My own life has changed too, by now. My priorities are changing, my personal life has changed, that's how things go. By the summer of 2013 I may live in a far away country with someone I recently met. Donia badassery might continue on the other side of the Great Ocean. We will see. Very nice to see you back here, if only for just a short stay. It's always fun to know that you are not forgotten. I for one have not forgotten you, my intelligent atheist friend. Such great debates we had, you, me and Yuri, with me playing the devil's advocate and defending organized religion. Those were the days! The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 21:31, November 12, 2012 (UTC)

GAPP
What do you think of the Green Anti-Prohibition Party? I like it because I think it is a good idea. I think it should be kept. I dislike it because I think it is a bad idea. I think it should be removed. I think Marcus should be able to do what he wants. I think it should be kept. I'm not sure. I would like to start a poll to see what people think of the Green Anti-Prohibition Party recently started by Marcus. There will be no bias. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:50, November 9, 2012 (UTC)

Unanimous for remove with five votes right now. :D —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:36, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * I might switch to this party. I'm all about gay marriage and smokin' weed bruh. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 09:15, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * @Donia: are you going to break up with me? :o --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:33, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * @all: we can't prohibit this; freedom of joing/creating political parties. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:33, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * This is removing several parties also, though. 77topaz (talk) 09:41, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, both parties were started and solely run by Marcus. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:44, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * @Oos: I would never break up with you guys. But I don't really have an opinion on weed, I'm neutral on the subject. And I think I have become more liberal on the subject of gay marriage. But I still support the CCPL. Christian Democrats for life baby! The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 09:49, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, CCPL'ers are free to have their own opinions on gay marriage and abortion è :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:53, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh my abortion standpoint hasn't changed. Don't worry. Still all about the sanctity of life.
 * There's three parties involved. 77topaz (talk) 10:02, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, well, Liz West is also Marcus, as is ARP. I personally support a merger of ARP into GAPP. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:07, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * TM says he wants to use the ARP, though. 77topaz (talk) 10:12, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't really see a problem. If Marcus agrees, he can take it over. If not, he could set up a new party (with the same name :P) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:14, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Marcus and TM seem to have had a bit of an argument about this. :P 77topaz (talk) 10:24, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * As I see it, the problem was about Liz West, right? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:26, November 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * It was 6 against earlier and now it's 6 against and 4 for. Amazing. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 10:27, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess Europeans are more tolerant than Americans :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:30, November 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * P <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 10:31, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * "I guess eurpoeans are more tolerant than americans :P" i know that was a joke but yes yes they are xD Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:35, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hahaha --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:00, November 10, 2012 (UTC)

Darn, only six votes for delete and five for keep. D: Also, if I can't have Liz West, I don't care about ARP anymore. I just don't like the idea of GAPP. Same thing with LFPP. Too ******* unrealistic. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:24, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, I only support deletion of political parties when they are just too nonsensical. I can tolerate the Porcines. But not GAPP and LFPP. I definitely don't support deletion of small but realistic parties like RMP. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:26, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * RMP is actually not realistic. Even if all Romanians would vote RMP, chances are very low they can get a seat, but who cares :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:29, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh? Either way, RMP is not whimsical like GAPP and LFPP are. It makes sense, unlike GAPP and LFPP. Did we want to do anything about LFPP now that Jeff is inactive? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:30, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, probably some (Slavic) minorities might also vote RMP. I don't think GAPP is actually that far-fetched. LFPP: well, elections are december? Then we'd better wait. I don't think Jeff'll be reelected (or even that he'll come back). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:35, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * He hasn't been here since early March except to vandalize once in late March. Besides, LFPP is the same as GAPP. It makes no sense. Also, the thing about LFPP is that I like having a testimonial animal rights party, just as there is in the Netherlands. It was destroyed in the merger into GFPP. RENT was also extremely uncreative and copied the NY party (right down to the leader >_>). HEMPPAC was a PAC whose mission had already been achieved. They just don't go together. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:43, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * ARP indeed has a right of existence (though not a direct need, as animal rights are in CCPL's package as well).
 * The party program of GAPP is very likely and I think it's a good case RENT and HEMPPAC merged. And I hope you agree, even if we legalize it, it should be mentioned in the law. Not mentioning it, means no regulation. It's better to have government-watched weed production, than uncontrolled crap. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:49, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Right now the party program is advocating more regulation on uncontrolled crap that it wants to be uncontrolled. It should be mentioned in the law. But GAPP still makes no sense. Like HEMPPAC, it's a one issue party that advocates something when the advocacy of the party is already the status quo. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:52, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see that GAPP advocates the status quo. In my eyes, they want it regulated. And yes, it might be a one-focus party (def. not one-issue), but if it's that important for the members to have it regulated; why not have a cannabis party? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:58, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because it's already legal. Also, the name sucks (like TV :P). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:17, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * @Name: true. @legal: true, but - as I said - it's not regulated. And I believe regulation is a key point for the GAPP. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:20, November 10, 2012 (UTC)

(ugh, I haaaate colons) Then their name is a misnomer. They say they are anti-prohibition, yet we have no prohibition and they actually want more regulation that what currently is on what they say they advocate. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:27, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yup, just a crappy name :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:28, November 10, 2012 (UTC)

We will remember them


The unsigned comment above this comment was written by Semyon

We sure will. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   19:06, November 11, 2012 (UTC)

Who are we remembering? :P 77topaz (talk) 19:40, November 11, 2012 (UTC)

People who died in the wars <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   19:42, November 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Such a shame, such a waste of young life...


 * "In times of peace sons bury fathers in times of war fathers bury sons"
 * -Herodotus


 * The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 20:23, November 11, 2012 (UTC)

Both good quotes. Daembrales (talk) 00:57, November 12, 2012 (UTC)

Possibly this is a UK thing, so a word of explanation: the quote at the top is always read at services on Remembrance Day, the 11th of November, the day WWI ended (yesterday). --Semyon 09:15, November 12, 2012 (UTC)

Topaz, may I ask what country you are from. Btw, semyon, most of the commonwealth have Remembrance Day. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   15:44, November 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * That is true, but there aren't many people here from commonwealth countries. :P --Semyon 15:54, November 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * True :P <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 16:25, November 12, 2012 (UTC)

Hahah, in Limburg it's the opening of the carnival season :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:36, November 12, 2012 (UTC)

I know what the quote is about; I was asking Semyon why he posted it. 77topaz (talk) 01:30, November 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, it was Remembrance Day two days ago. --Semyon 08:41, November 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I see. 77topaz (talk) 19:20, November 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, all commonwealth members except a few and suspended member Fiji take part in it :P <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:28, November 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think Fiji does take part in it. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 20:02, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

Question
I am currently an admin on another wikination project and I would like to ask how my wikination can join the IWO. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   17:10, November 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Can we get a link to the another project? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:36, November 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Go to the chat on the Brunant Wiki and I will tell you lots of information <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 17:45, November 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Any reason the 'lots of information' can't be posted here? ;) Chat doesn't keep history and in any case it concerns everyone, not just Oos. --Semyon 17:59, November 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Here it is btw :) 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 18:06, November 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Nice try but no it isn't. It is infact here <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:09, November 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah ok, I see. :) --Semyon 20:21, November 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see you adopted one of the defunct wikinations. Also, is the Southern Arc Islands already an official IWO member? 77topaz (talk) 02:35, November 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yep, I adopted one of the defunct wikinations to make it active again. Why delete an important part of wikination history? <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 07:21, November 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, the Harvian Islands didn't really have a relation with Lovia apart from the users there :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:19, November 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * I really want it to become part of the IWO. I will strengthen relations by far. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 15:53, November 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Btw, I posted a request on the IWO page for the Harvian Islands. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:59, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

Marriage
Seeing as people's views on this topic vary, I would like to put it out there that nobody has taken action on changing any marriage laws in Lovia, and at the moment I could marry a shoe in Lovia (that's right RENT). I could also marry my house, dog, and a bisexual man all at once if I wished to (I obviously don't). I feel someone needs to address this issue, as many conservatives disagree with shoe marriage. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 02:59, November 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, that's Yuri for you. I believe the law actually says "person", but that does allow for some room. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:13, November 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's at least define person more clearly. That person would have to be a human being, for example. And, as far as the CCPL is concerned, of the opposite sex as the other partner. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 06:13, November 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * After looking over the marital terms once more, I'd like to point out that the marriage law never states if one has to obtain citizenship to be married in Lovia, nor does it state that 1st cousins cannot marry. (I'm assuming that when the law states parents-children, aunt/uncle-niece/nephew, and brother-sister that this includes great aunts and uncles, grandparents, half-siblings, etc.) --Quarantine Zone (talk) 03:33, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure... :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:01, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Is anyone in the CCPL or CNP up for helping extend the federal law on marriage? --Quarantine Zone (talk) 02:12, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Interviews
Anybody interested in having their character interviewed on The Trio Presents? 77topaz (talk) 01:40, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

I'm honestly a bit concerned about how The Trio Presents and Freedom Press are said to be "strongly affiliated" with the GP. Perhaps the show and the company should just simply be owned by Sheraldin instead? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:45, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

Freedom Press is owned by the GP/Sheraldin. The Trio Presents is owned by Ivars Zydonis and the other hosts, who became GP members. 77topaz (talk) 01:50, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

The strong affiliation is what concerns me. I think it should just be Sheraldin for Freedom Press and the three hosts for Trio Presents (they can be GP members, but I'm a bit concerned about the strong affiliation). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:17, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

The "strong affiliation" bit is only on Freedom Press's page. 77topaz (talk) 02:28, November 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * They can interview me, if they're interested. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 07:50, November 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * When are you available for an interview? 77topaz (talk) 08:07, November 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Whenever you need me (and I happen to be online). The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 08:40, November 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's not entirely helpful. :P Right now I'll be on for maybe half an hour more. I'll be able to participate for longer after 19:00 UTC. 77topaz (talk) 08:44, November 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't have college untila few hours, and after that, when I get back, it may be late where you're at. I'm not very familiar with timezones. Since you already had an interview today (a mighty good one, may I add, with Mr. Al-Asmari, doing another one today would be a bit too much. How about tomorrow? The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 08:47, November 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm "next" available from approx. 19:00-00:00 UTC. 77topaz (talk) 08:50, November 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * The interviews are a pretty good idea. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 16:03, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

My love for politics :D
My love for politics (and the social sciences) extends majorly to American, British and certain aspects of European politics, and minorly to canadian and australian. I want some british prespective (non bias and bias) because even though i follow british politics as much as I want, I'm just not there and don't get the "feel" so to say. But i always catch PMQ's, some special BBC reports, welsh and scotish parliaments, and some other parliamentary debates.

My thoughts or what I got from the recent Police elections was a total shit storm. Here's just my thoughts (tell me if im factually wrong) the coalition government imposed many police cuts, they say to buraracy, Ed milliband says its all the same. Now from what i've read they're both mostly right. Now these elections, in name were, for democracy and accountability, but who's really acountable?

In my mind i'm thinking this is a sorta scapegoat thing. The government cuts and cut, but isnt blamed, because you can just blame you're local Commissioner. I feel like this was maybe shown a bit more when voter turnout was about 20%, and in some areas near 0%. So with misinformation, spolit ballots, protest ballots, and low turnout it seems like the government is getting off here and there try in "democracy" failed.

Again some british, european thoughts? Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:36, November 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * From the British perspective the elections were a sham and shouldn't have been held. It's just selfish politicians trying to get their own place in yet another institution when problems could largely be solved by devolving power to MPs or even more simply having MPs do their job more often.


 * On the problems, it extends all the way back to the first british government that thought gaining debt and not dealing with it was a good thing however if you want to know where the blame lies here in the now well then, you can only say that it's a problem with the people really.


 * Don't do a whole coalition blaming thing, it's just the conservatives trying to apease the liberals, and labour are just being the opposition so who cares what they think, they'll always say what the government does is a bad idea unless it's completely in line with their views.


 * The people are pretty much fed up with our politicians, people are becoming disillusioned with the three main parties (especially the Liberals). They want politicians to do their job of representing the people and the crime commissioners are just seen as another bit of bureaucracy and money that could go towards more plodders, so in short a waste of time, resources and energy.


 * And as their goal of being for democracy and acountability? completely missed, people don't want it and so don't take part so the whole democratic thing has flopped, on acountability all it does is make another excuse for both local and central politicians: the government will say "oh sorry crime's so high, it's the fault of commissioners for not doing what you say", the commissioners will say "oh sorry crime's so high, it's the fault of the government for not letting me do what you say." Roundabouts and roundabouts.


 * So to finish off. It's a sham, it's wasteful and it causes more bureacracy. it's just another nail in the coffin for the Liberals and Conservatives to be honest. And all just so that the Liberals would be happy little munchkins, personally I can't wait to see an end to the three party system. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:55, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh and p.s. - Cuts aren't the problem in this situation, in fact cuts are needed so I'd leave that out if I were you especially considering that all three pledged to cut and the Cons have only actually cut as far as Labour said they would, so this situation would be close if not the same under Labour. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:57, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

I think that the minimum amount of major parties (more than a few seats in Congress) for "fair politics" is five, though some with as few as three can do alright. The political situation in the US and the UK is not good, I agree. It's not good in France, either. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:25, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah from what i've seen it seems like the LibDems were riding the "we're not politicans, we're you :D" wave in the last elections but thats worn off after four straight loses. AV, selling out the youth, this debacle, and (another) failed lords reform. And honestly it seemed UKIP, who i doubt meets the normal british person's viewpoints, is riding the fiscal conservative, nationalist, populist wave and Nigel Farage is a very good leader for this. I can only guess that by the next election Labour will have 340 seats, Cons 275, Lib Dems 20, and then the others.

I'm glad to see I was kinda point on with the accountablity thing. For David Cameron to say he's anti-buracracy, he showed a poor lack of judgement here. What I think is shown is a third (major) party is wanted in Britian just one that keeps promises like UKIP. But the LibDems, going into this Parliament, had there chances looking so up. Now they will be lucky to keep the same ammount of seats. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:24, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Lib dems are "neo-liberals" which doesn't appeal to the british people en mass just people who are neo-liberals, people who think the libdems are classical liberals or people are afraid of the two other big three parties.


 * And by the way I know UKIP better than anyone on this site inside and out and they are gaining votes because they keep their promises and support a platform people can agree with (Economical Classical Liberalism which in the UK means a balance of state and private industry while being pro-private) however they are losing votes they could have due to a feeling of fear, fear of the big three (people won't vote UKIP because they don't want Labour in and vice versa). The next general election if UKIP wins the EU elections, will mean a definite UKIP seat gain I think personally.


 * I want UKIP to grow and win because of this and so many other failings for four reasons: 1) The lib dems have let liberals like myself down, 2) UKIP rarely breaks a promise on purpose and doesn't compromise on important policies (nick...) 3) UKIP is moving away from social conservatism towards a mixed social policy with liberalism and conservatism in all the right places 4) UKIP destroys extremist parties with its wide policies.


 * I think that the rise of UKIP should also see the rise of other new parties, which I hope won't merge with the larger parties. All in all I welcome Nick Cleggs ridiculousness with open arms. :L Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 01:25, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * True, if i were in britian i would be a Labour supporter, but farage has sold me (when watching European parliament) that any sensable country should get out of the EU. UKIP can only go up. Marcus/Michael Villanova 02:20, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * No. You have seriously angered me. Well, actually you haven't, but Farage has. He's a xenophobic lout, and I fear that's the basis for his appeal to the British people. --Semyon 11:56, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see how you could say that of Farage. And considering that isn't how he is, it most certainly isn't the basis for the support for UKIP. Honestly I would be intriguiged to know how you came to that baffling conclusion? Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 14:55, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

Can someone explain to me what Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems are doing wrong? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 04:30, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * At least the Lib Dems made the Nick Clegg Apology Song <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 08:12, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Time, Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems are lacking one of the most key things for a political party to have, backbone. That's what they are doing wrong. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 10:44, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * UKIP are a pretty good party. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 11:40, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

But they don't support the EU, so I could never support them. Anything besides backbone, Kunarian? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:13, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Why is the lack of support for the EU a bad thing? It takes away freedom of the nationstates citizens and is single mindedly pursuing a dream of a united european state to the detriment of everyone within it. The freemarket is needed and was agreed to, what we have today is too far and too much. Being a strong supporter of liberty and freedom of choice I can only oppose the draconic measures it imposes on states like Greece, which I'm sure it won't hesitate to implement on any other dissenting states, and the way that laws are no longer being made in home countries but in the EU parliament, taking democracy further away from the people agian. In the interest of the future I do not feel I could ever support something so much a binding straight jacket as the EU.


 * Character of the party in my opinion is more important than ideology in most senses as a view on ideology is always subjective, the Libdems as I say are simply a party that lacks good character. Backbone is key to good character, it would give the party the courage to demand things from the Conservatives, it would give the party the strength to not let themselves simply be a Labour/Conservative play thing and it would give them the ability to appear as a party that can get results.


 * Another matter of character is conviction, not changing views suddenly, no double talking and putting principle ahead of politics, needless to say that the Libdem leadership lacks such conviction, having been no better shown than in the situation with the tuition fees and the coalition. Had they stood their ground, I might today be a fervent Libdem supporter but alas it is not so.


 * Too much real life politics for one day :L I enjoy the serene world that is Lovia much more, politicians here have the backbone and conviction I speak of which makes for much more interesting political development in many cases. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 13:53, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think this is were i agree with a conservative policy. I'm a soft eurspectic, i dont like seeing other countries being bossed around by one country (germany) Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:15, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, I am kind of Neutral on the EU thing. I don't take much intrest in the UK-EU conflict. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 16:41, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

I don't live in Britain, but i've always liked the lib dems most--in the middle between labour and the conservatives. What are the crime commissioners and the lords reform? Also, i did like how the lib dems supported AV. should've passed. Daembrales (talk) 18:25, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Is it possible the same thing that happened to the BNP in 2009, is happening to UKIP now? Just a dis-trust of the main parties... Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:09, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * No, BNP never really got anywhere. UKIP however are challenging the Tories for the top spot in the european elections and have higher approval ratings than the LibDems. BNP only got media coverage saying they were fascists. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 14:13, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed. UKIP are also getting more and more moderate, which will help their positions in the polls and probably win them a couple seats in the next House of Commons elections, and possibly the top spot in the EU elections. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:32, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * UKIP will become popular soon. I'm sure. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 15:19, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * They are popular already, popular enough however is another question. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:29, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Go to Bretherland chat. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 15:34, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Please, I beg you. STOP using chat. If you don't want to use talk pages, please at least use blogs. Chat doesn't save history and people who use Monobook, like me or Oos, can't use it. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:59, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Does it matter if history is not saved? <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 16:06, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does. If you are not online at the very moment something's said in the chat, you will never be able to read it. Also, decision making on chat is impossible as well, as it needs to be certifiable. On top of that, you could say somebody said something, while that somebody could deny it. No way of fact checking. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:53, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, I won't use chat on wikinations then. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 18:57, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. <3 —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:27, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * :P No problem. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:32, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

Hello!
Hello Lovia, I'm proud to announce that I've returned and I brought myself a friend, MineCraftian! We are both partyless, and we are both looking for political opportunity. We are willing to begin heavy development of the Stephen Headland and the Emerald Mountains. We will both be living in Charleston, and hope to turn it into a corporate paradise, with both Scribner Pharmaceuticals and Charleston and Port Company being centered in Charleston and Stephen Headland. Now heres the catch, we are both looking for a party that will support the creation of a West Sylvania state, which me and MC will be dedicated to maintaining and creating.

Now, who wants two new members? Nathaniel Scribner (talk) 18:23, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

PLEASE do not just join the first party that makes a nice offer to you. Look at the positions of all the major parties and decide which is best for you. Also, please do not turn Charleston into a "corporate paradise". It's supposed to be a small village. Other than that, Welcome! —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:45, November 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Time is right, by the way guys I love your ideas however please note two things that make the development of the Stephen Headland and Charleston hard: 1. realism: Lovia isn't a super power but you seem to be doing things realistically so far, there aren't a ton of workers in Stephen Headland or the Emerald mountains and a lot of Sylvanian farmers and Sylvanians in general are self employed. 2. This: farming and development is difficult for the people in the Stephen Headlands and the Emerald mountains, however in the east and south of west Sylvania things are easier BUT 3. this: lots of land is owned by the people who live in the small settlements or a small group of certain people and they probably wouldn't sell it, rent it yes, but sell it no.


 * On your political matter, the CNP is probably the most pro business in Lovia and supports the economic development of Lovia. We have a problem with huge monopolies but you don't seem to be doing that. Parties like Labour or the CPL.nm are more regulatory on business and favour power to unions and such. CNP also supports devolution (aka more power to the locals) and while we might not support a west Sylvanian state, we might support increased powers to districts and such (so you could have influence over the Stephen Headlands and Charleston via this system). However I don't think the CNP wants new members, maybe you should create your own new party (with a focus on west Sylvania) or become independents (standing with policies focused on helping west Sylvania). Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 19:09, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, CCPL is pro a single Sylvania :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:50, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

well zackatron you know me :D leader of Labour! We stand with companies and the little guys, check our policies out Labour Party Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:56, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

The idea of a West Sylvania is the main force for me and MC. Also, why can't we turn Charleston into a thriving town?? Nathaniel Scribner (talk) 19:01, November 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * You should! I started Charleston a while back and I'm glad to see that you and Minecraftian are taking interest in it and working on development. I can tell you right now that a west sylvania won't be supported by most major parties, but I would like it if you could join Labour. We could work towards the development on Charlestown to make the local economy stronger, more self-sustainable and better accessible (while keeping an eye on elecologic protection too). HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 19:21, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * 'Thriving town' != 'corporate paradise.' :P --Semyon 19:23, November 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Those two were reading my mind. I thought of doing this yesterday (not kidding). Welcome your third member of the developement project. I was mainly thinking of concentrating on other places in the Stephen Headland though. I also own Charleston Academy. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:25, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Welcome aboard! I'm also trying to get Superwarmonkey and some others to join in the cause. West Sylvania, Forward! Nathaniel Scribner (talk) 19:26, November 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * As I am the current Governor of Sylvania I can help you the most with development, but you must support me as it'll probably be difficult to get other people to agree to what you want (I'm prepared to rub shoulders lightly with people help out my constituents aka zackitron and minecraftian). I personally make the case that you should make your own political identity focused on west Sylvania and then it'd allow you to clearly put out there what you want for the headlands and emerald mountains. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 19:30, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Noble City is too diffrent then the people of West Sylvania, we are more industrial and full of blue-collar workers. We want our own state to strive in. Nathaniel Scribner (talk) 19:35, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, btw western Sylvanians are very similar to the Sylvanians of the rest of Sylvania. And no way is west Sylvania more industrial. And may I mention the population of west Sylvania (Stephen Headlands and Sylvanian highlands and Charleston) is about 2,500, NC has 60,000 peeps. While you want your own state there is not the population nor the public outcry to demand that. Sylvania will be united not divided. I support the cause but don't make me choose between Sylvania and west Sylvania please by making this a uncooperative movement. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 19:46, November 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yep, I'll help out. Since Sylvania is controled by CNP, I am assigned to work on West Sylvania while Lukas goes to work on Noble City, Train Village & East Sylvania. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:28, November 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * This is a good plan, but I'mma keep the reins on to make sure things stay realistic okay guys. ;) Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 19:30, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * OH and quality, I shall also be maintaining quality. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 19:35, November 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Stephen Headland Union. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:37, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

Well, if you simply dislike NC's overrepresentation, feel free to join Oceana! (and this has nothing to do with any Greater Oceana ambitions :P) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 19:39, November 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * SYLVANIA SHALL NOT ALLOW IT! FIRE ALL LASERS! ;L Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 19:39, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds like we've got ourselves a second Civil War :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 19:41, November 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Conservative Nation of Sylvania Vs Empire of Oceana. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:42, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

I'm pro a divided Sylvania, but ONLY if it's retroactive. I'm not okay with having the area suddenly secede to make its own state after over one hundred years of being part of Sylvania. Happy. . . only the governor has "control". Sylvania is controlled by Hoffmann, not the CNP. I'm also pro Charleston becoming larger but not a "corporate paradise". Good luck on improving the region! —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:46, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Let me say the practical reason why I am contra: we already have a slight shortage of Deputies. If Charleston gets it's own state, it will probably be dominated by Scribner, having yet another state where nobody dares to run against the "leader" (Oceana/Seven) or perhaps having another state nobody's interested in (Clymene). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 19:49, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * This is another reason but I still support devolution and more power to districts. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 19:53, November 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * The Stephen Headland Union is NOT a governing body. It is just an improving Stephen Headland organization. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:50, November 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * No please Time, no more retroactive suggestions, they do more damage than good and ultimately defeat the idea of us trying to find realistic ways to achieve things which is a lot of the fun in many situations besides no one else supports retroactive decisions unless it's on something that could potentially damage the wikia. I'm also pro Charleston becoming bigger and more prosperous however not on dividing Sylvania, the solution is to give powers to locals and make the districts able to do what they want. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 19:52, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed, retcons are rather annoying. 77topaz (talk) 19:57, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

@TM: the retroactive thing is unworkable. All newspaper articles, a very large amount of pages, the five Lovian states, everything will have to be adapted. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 20:02, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

We will personally aid in updating anything to include West Sylvania. Nathaniel Scribner (talk) 20:07, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

Relooking at the Situation
I've decided that, y'all right- it seems unfair to do this when we have states such as Clymene un-cared for. I'll talk to MC into moving to Clymene and working to develope that state, instead of making a new one. Nathaniel Scribner (talk) 20:10, November 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Why not operate in both west Sylvania and Clymene? it's a good idea, then you can have an internal trade of goods made in west Sylvania to Clymene where there are lots of tourists who want goods. It's a good idea and would help develop both, also you could build up in Clymene and create an external trade center there from Clymene to the US or such. Just ideas, and I'm willing to help with both. The CNP cares for all Lovians. :) Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 20:16, November 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * I am still working on improving the Stephen Headland but not making an independent state. Btw, clymene has many new features. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP LogoCNP.png 20:18, November 21, 2012 (UTC)