National Archives/Chambers/16 Sixteen

=First Chamber=

022. Educational reform
We succeeded in giving more power to the states, but one big CCPL point still has not been achieved: educational reform.

In the light of more power to the states, I believe we can solve this quite easily. Add a provision to the Primary and Secondary Education Act that enables states to set up their own regulations concerning special needs and religious education. Of course, these regulations should still be in line with the regulations mentioned in the Federal Law. And: in case a state goes too far, we still have our rule: Congress may override a state's decision :)

By giving the states the possibility to create their own regulations, fit for the uniqueness within their state (f.e. Russian language education in Seven, or Catholic education in Oceana), we also avoid needless discussions, like we usually do concerning this kind of law :P

In addition, a rule will be implemented that regular, "federal" education should be available in all states as well.

Changes in bold.


 * Article 6 - Primary Education Act
 * Primary education is the educating of children in a school or privately, by qualified teachers, in order to provide them with the apt knowledge and skills to go to secondary education.
 * Primary education is provided in primary or elementary schools, unless the child is taught privately.
 * Primary schools can be operated privately, that is by an individual or an organization, or publicly, that is by a neighborhood, hamlet, town, city, state or by the federal state.
 * Primary schools have to appoint teachers that are qualified to teach the subjects they are asked to teach.
 * All primary school teachers must have obtained a single Lovian Certificate of Education Level 2 or above or a Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education Level 2 or above.
 * Primary schools can turn down pupils only in special cases, these being the inability to provide education to a pupil with a particular problem, the inability to properly provide education for a pupil due to a lack of resources or if a pupil has proven to be unable to behave according to previous schools '  regulations. In no other cases, pupils shall be denied access without consultation with the Ministry of Education.
 * Primary schools provide general and basic education to a child. All subjects taught must be Lovian Certificates of Education and may not be Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education.
 * These subjects should be taught at least three hours per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * English (level 1)
 * Mathematics (level 1)
 * Arts and Crafts (level 1)
 * These subjects should be taught at least two hours per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * Physical Education (level 1)
 * Social Education (level 1)
 * The school must also choose a level 1 language subject to provide other than English that must be taught at least two hours a week, from a list which the State Government will provide.
 * These subjects should be taught at least one hour per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * History (level 1)
 * Geography (level 1)
 * Science (level 1)
 * Computing (level 1)
 * Primary schools may also provide more languages than the two mandatory subjects to pupils. The specific additional languages a pupil is taught however will be selected by the pupil themselves from the list of additional languages the school provides beyond the two mandatory language subjects.
 * Primary schools are free to choose to provide more classes of any of these subjects, or to provide other level 1 subjects considered valuable, in order to provide a minimum of twenty-two hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Primary schools may provide more classes beyond the twenty-two hour minimum but none beyond the maximum of thirty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * There shall be no doctrinal classes in primary schools.
 * In a course called 'Religions of the world', children may be taught about religions. If the school wishes to teach this subject, all major religions should be brought to attention, as well as a non-religious attitude.
 * Primary schools and their teachers may not try to convince children of a certain religious or political point of view, nor can they make any pupil exercise a religious act, unless the pupil and/or the parents agree with taking doctrinal classes.
 * These rules apply for the arrangement of the timetable:
 * A break of at least 10 minutes is compulsory between every two hours; more often is allowed.
 * There shall be no classes on Sunday.
 * There shall be no classes between 7 PM and 7 AM.
 * There must be a lunch break every day, of at least an hour, between noon and 2 PM.
 * Private education, by a qualified teacher, can be provided. In this case, the same rules apply.
 * Every child residing in Lovia has to receive six years of primary education, beginning in the schoolyear during which the child will reach the age of 6 years.
 * Only if a qualified psychologist and the pupil's teacher find it appropriate for the pupil to skip a schoolyear and continue education with older pupils, and if the parents agree on this, the pupil may skip a schoolyear.
 * Every pupil has to receive primary education until the schoolyear during which the pupil will reach the age of 12, except in the case mentioned above.
 * In case a primary school does not provide the kind of education described in this article, the Minister of Education or the Royal Educational Aims Council can decide to shut down the school until the service provided does qualify. In the meantime, the Ministry of Education must provide education to the pupils of that school, by allowing them instant pro-tempore access to another school.
 * The Royal Educational Aims Council is a council under the Ministry of Education, consisting of three educational specialists who decide on the secondary education curriculum, and who can close a school (of any level) if it does not qualify with the requirements.
 * The following three persons are members of the council: the Minister of Education, the Prime Minister, and the Minister of Labour as the pupils' and students' welfare watchdog.
 * The Rector of Blackburn University is added to the council as its fourth member only when the council is looking into a matter directly concerned with the higher educational system.
 * States are allowed to create legislation concerning special needs and religious education, and education in another language (special education).
 * The same rules apply to special education as to regular institutions.
 * Regular education must always remain available to pupils.
 * All settlements with more than 5,000 inhabitants must have at least one regular primary school.
 * A state must always have at least one regular primary school.
 * All primary schools within Lovia are funded by a School Voucher system.
 * A School Voucher system operates via a system of grants from the Ministry of Education to a parent for each child they have at the age of primary education to pay for their child's tuition within Lovia.
 * Parents are granted an amount towards each child's education, this grant is not given to the parents instead the Ministry of Education must create documents that shall be used to register where their child is currently receiving tuition so that the grant may be given directly to their child's school.
 * The current grant per child is L$11,000.
 * These documents must be simple, easy to understand and must not be misleading, there must also be a way to trace who filled in the documents.
 * To obtain the grant, at least one parent must be a Lovian citizen.
 * Parents wealthy enough to make tuition provisions for their child without state assistance should do so.
 * Parents earning over L$100,000 collectively will only be entitled to half of the grant.
 * Parents earning over L$250,000 collectively will not be entitled to any of the grant.
 * Primary schools may not charge a tuition that is higher than the grant.
 * Primary schools must register certain details in a primary school register.
 * A primary school must register:
 * Their name.
 * The address of the school.
 * The number of pupils they are currently teaching a primary education to.
 * The number of teachers they are currently employing to teach primary education.
 * The tuition fee the school is charging per child in primary education.
 * The date of registration.
 * These registers are managed on a state by state basis by the relevant state government.
 * Further details may be requested by the state government.
 * The details must be renewed every half-year since the date of registration.
 * If they are not renewed then the school shall be given a weeks grace period to fill in the details along with a notification from the state government, if it fails to renew details after the grace period then it is no longer considered able to provide education to students and must be shut down until it renews the details. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide education to the students of that school.
 * Only primary schools that are registered in the primary school register may be considered primary schools by law.


 * Article 7 - Secondary Education Act
 * Secondary education is the educating of adolescents in a school or privately, by qualified teachers, in order to provide them with the apt knowledge and skills to lead a life in a modern society and in order to be able to continue studying in university or take on an apprenticeship.
 * After having completed the schoolyear of their 16th birthday a child may choose to not continue ordinary school and instead pursue an apprenticeship, should they secure an apprenticeship then they may continue their education under their employer as an apprentice, if they at any point lose their apprenticeship they must at the soonest possible date rejoin a school.
 * Secondary education is provided in high schools or secondary schools, unless the adolescent is taught privately.
 * Secondary schools can be operated privately, that is by an individual or an organization, or publicly, that is by a neighborhood, hamlet, town, city, state or by the federal state.
 * Secondary schools have to appoint teachers that are qualified to teach the subjects they are asked to teach.
 * All secondary school teachers must have obtained a single Lovian Certificate of Education Level 4 or above or a Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education Level 4 or above.
 * Secondary schools can turn down pupils only in special cases, these being the inability to provide education to a pupil with a particular problem, the inability to properly provide education for a pupil due to a lack of resources or if a pupil has proven to be unable to behave according to previous schools '  regulations. In no other cases, pupils shall be denied access without consultation with the Ministry of Education.
 * Secondary schools provide two tiers of education, one to a child from the age of 12 until 16 and another to a child of the ages of 17 and 18 should the child choose to continue in school:
 * Secondary schools provide a general education to a child up until the age of 16. All subjects taught must be Lovian Certificates of Education and may not be Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education.
 * These subjects should be taught at least four hours per week, during the first four years of secondary education:
 * Mathematics (level 2)
 * These subjects should be taught at least two hours per week, during the first four years of secondary education:
 * English (level 2)
 * Literature (level 2)
 * Art (level 2)
 * Physical Education (level 2)
 * Social Education (level 2)
 * Technology (level 2)
 * Science (level 2)
 * The school must also choose a level 2 language subject to provide other than English that must be taught at least two hours a week, from a list which the State Government will provide.
 * These subjects should be taught at least one hour per week, during the first four years of secondary education:
 * History (level 2)
 * Geography (level 2)
 * Computing (level 2)
 * Secondary schools may also provide more languages than the two mandatory subjects to pupils between the ages of 12 and 16. The specific additional languages a pupil is taught however will be selected by the pupil themselves from the list of additional languages the school provides beyond the two mandatory language subjects.
 * Secondary schools are free to choose to provide more classes of any of these subjects, or to provide other level 2 subjects considered valuable, in order to provide a minimum of thirty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Secondary schools may provide more classes beyond the thirty hour minimum but none beyond the maximum of forty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * Secondary schools provide an advanced education to a child of the age of 17 and 18. All subjects taught must be Lovian Certificates of Education and may not be Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education.
 * These subjects should be taught at least five hours per week, during the last two years of secondary education:
 * English (level 3)
 * Mathematics (level 3)
 * The school must also choose a level 3 language subject to provide other than English that must be taught at least five hours a week, from a list which the State Government will provide.
 * Secondary schools must provide a wide selection of level 3 subjects for pupils to choose from to study. Pupils may choose to study a minimum of three extra subjects to study to bring their total time within school to 30 hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Pupils may choose to study two more subjects beyond the thirty hour minimum, bringing their total time within school to 40 hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * Each additional subject a pupil chooses to study must be taught for five hours each week.
 * Doctrinal classes may be provided in secondary schools by the school itself, if wished.
 * There shall be no more than one hour of doctrinal class per week.
 * The content of doctrinal classes, in which the teacher teaches a particular religious or political world view, can be chosen by the school and teacher.
 * There shall be no doctrinal classes about extremist views; that is: no far-right, far-left, extremist religious, violent or extreme nationalist views can be taught. If needed, the Royal Educational Aims Council and the Minister of Education can dismiss a doctrinal course.
 * A student is allowed not to follow a doctrinal course provided by a secondary school, if he or she does not want to take this course. In order to skip these classes, the student has to notify the school direction and stay on school property during the courses.
 * A course called 'Religions of the world', or any course similar to it, is not considered a doctrinal course.
 * No tests and exams shall be taken for these courses.
 * These rules apply for the arrangement of the timetable:
 * A break of at least 10 minutes is compulsory between every two hours; more often is allowed.
 * There shall be no classes on Sunday.
 * There shall be no classes between 7 PM and 7 AM.
 * There must be a lunch break every day, of at least an hour, between noon and 2 PM.
 * Private education, by a qualified teacher, can be provided. In this case, the same rules apply.
 * Every child residing in Lovia has to receive at least four years of secondary education, beginning in the schoolyear after which the adolescent has finished his primary education successfully. Additionally should a child not be employed as an apprentice, they must continue to receive education until they have completed the educational year in which they are 18.
 * Only if a qualified psychologist and the student's teacher find it appropriate for the student to skip a schoolyear and continue education with older students, and if the parents agree on this, the student may skip a schoolyear.
 * Secondary schools that do not provide the kind of education described in this article, the Minister of Education or the Royal Educational Aims Council can decide to shut down the school until the service provided do qualify. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide education to the students of that school.
 * States are allowed to create legislation concerning special needs and religious education, and education in another language (special education).
 * The same rules apply to special education as to regular institutions.
 * Regular education must always remain available to pupils.
 * All settlements with more than 10,000 inhabitants must have at least one regular secondary school.
 * A state must always have at least one regular secondary school.
 * All secondary schools within Lovia are funded by a School Voucher system.
 * A School Voucher system operates via a system of grants from the Ministry of Education to a parent for each child they have at the age of secondary education to pay for their child's tuition within Lovia.
 * Parents are granted an amount towards each child's education, this grant is not given to the parents instead the Ministry of Education must create documents that shall be used to register where their child is currently receiving tuition so that the grant may be given directly to their child's school.
 * The current grant per child is L$15,000.
 * These documents must be simple, easy to understand and must not be misleading, there must also be a way to trace who filled in the documents.
 * To obtain the grant, at least one parent must be a Lovian citizen.
 * Parents wealthy enough to make tuition provisions for their child without state assistance should do so.
 * Parents earning over L$100,000 collectively will only be entitled to half of the grant.
 * Parents earning over L$250,000 collectively will not be entitled to any of the grant.
 * Secondary schools may not charge a tuition that is higher than the grant.
 * Secondary schools must register certain details in a secondary school register.
 * A secondary school must register:
 * Their name.
 * The address of the school.
 * The number of pupils they are currently teaching a secondary education to.
 * The number of teachers they are currently employing to teach secondary education.
 * The tuition fee the school is charging per child in secondary education.
 * The date of registration.
 * These registers are managed on a state by state basis by the relevant state government.
 * Further details may be requested by the state government.
 * The details must be renewed every half-year since the date of registration.
 * If they are not renewed then the school shall be given a weeks grace period to fill in the details along with a notification from the state government, if it fails to renew details after the grace period then it is no longer considered able to provide education to students and must be shut down until it renews the details. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide education to the students of that school.
 * Only secondary schools that are registered in the secondary school register may be considered secondary schools by law.


 * Article 12 - Educational Boards Act
 * An educational board is a registered organisation that creates curriculum's for schools and is responsible for the testing, examination and marking of the students learning their curriculum's and then the distribution of the results. They are also granted the power to award Lovian Certificates of Education (LCE) and Supplimentary Lovian Certificates of Education (SLCE) to students.
 * Educational boards may award LCE's and SLCE's to students with an assigned grade attached to the certificate.
 * A Lovian Certificate of Education is a full course in a subject, ensuring that the student learning the curriculum related to the LCE understands the full knowledge of the subject over the full time of the educational level it is at.
 * Grades assigned to LCE's are related to the percentage achieved in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * Pass grades are as follows:
 * A*, which is awarded should a student get 95% or above in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * A, which is awarded should a student get 90% or above and below 95% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * B, which is awarded should a student get 80% or above and below 90% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * C, which is awarded should a student get 70% or above and below 80% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * D, which is awarded should a student get 60% or above and below 70% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * E, which is awarded should a student get 50% or above and below 60% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * Fail grades are as follows:
 * F, which is awarded should a student get 40% or above and below 50% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * U, which is awarded should a student get below 40% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * When a student fails they receive a letter with their fail grade and their percentage achieved in various exams and tests in order to help them understand and improve for the future rather than an LCE.
 * A Supplimentary Lovian Certificate of Education is a short course in a subject, ensuring that the student learning the curriculum related to the SLCE understands the basic and general knowledge of the subject but does so over a quarter of the time of the full course.
 * Grades assigned to SLCE's are related to the percentage achieved.
 * Pass grades are as follows:
 * A*, which is awarded should a student get 97.5% or above in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * A, which is awarded should a student get 95% or above and below 97.5% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * B, which is awarded should a student get 90% or above and below 95% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * C, which is awarded should a student get 85% or above and below 90% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * D, which is awarded should a student get 80% or above and below 85% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * E, which is awarded should a student get 75% or above and below 80% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * Fail grades are as follows:
 * F, which is awarded should a student get 70% or above and below 85% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * U, which is awarded should a student get below 70% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * When a student fails they receive a letter with their fail grade and their percentage achieved in various exams and tests in order to help them understand and improve for the future rather than an SLCE.
 * Subjects will be provided at various levels by Educational Boards. Subjects can either be defined by law or by certain governmental institutions.
 * Level 1 subjects are aimed at giving a wide and basic education, in cases where the subject is applicable to needing to teach using resources that might concern the state, nation and world, examples and resources concerning all three of these should be used. These are aimed to be taught in primary school by a person with at least a level 2 qualification to children aged 6-12, over the course of 6 years.
 * Level 2 subjects are aimed at giving a general and advanced education, in cases where the subject is applicable to needing to teach using resources that might concern the state, nation and world, examples and resources concerning only two or all three should be used. These are aimed to be taught in secondary school by a person with at least a level 4 qualification to adolescents aged 12-16, over the course of 4 years.
 * Level 3 subjects are aimed at giving a focused and advanced education, in cases where the subject is applicable to needing to teach using resources that might concern the state, nation and world, examples and resources concerning only one, two or all three may be used. These are aimed to be taught in secondary school by a person with at least a level 4 qualification to adolescents aged 16-18, over the course of 2 years.
 * Level 4 subjects are aimed at giving a highly focused and advanced education, the aim of this education should be to prepare the student for a career in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 5 qualification to adults aged 18-21, over the course of 3 years.
 * Level 5 subjects are aimed at building on a persons focused and advanced education, the aim of this education should be to advance the students knowledge further in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 6 qualification to adults aged 21 and over.
 * Level 6 subjects are aimed at further building on a persons focused and advanced education, the aim of this education should be to advance the students knowledge further in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 7 qualification to adults aged 21 and over.
 * Level 7 subjects are aimed at building on a persons focused and advanced education at an experimental level, the aim of this education should be to advance the students knowledge further in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 7 qualification to adults aged 21 and over.
 * Subjects that educational boards may provide at specific levels are any of those defined in law and those recognised by state governments on a state by state basis with the advice of the Ministry of Education.
 * Additionally the Ministry of Education may recognise subjects nationally with advice from Congress.
 * Educational boards must provide tests, examinations or coursework or a combination of those for students to complete as part of a subject to act as proof that they understand the full knowledge of the subject.
 * Educational boards may not refuse to provide a tutor, school or university access to a subject unless it does not have the proper resources to administrate the subject.
 * Educational boards may charge no more than a certain amount of Lovian Dollars per student per subject and must charge the same rate for all subjects it provides on the same level.
 * Educational boards may charge up to £50 for level 1 subjects.
 * Educational boards may charge up to £60 for level 2 subjects.
 * Educational boards may charge up to £125 for level 3 subjects.
 * Educational boards may charge up to £750 for level 4-7 subjects.
 * Educational boards must register certain details in an educational board register.
 * An educational board must register:
 * Their name.
 * The address of the educational board.
 * The number of courses they are currently offering.
 * The number of schools using the subjects they are offering.
 * The fee the educational board is charging per student per subject at each level.
 * The date of registration.
 * These registers are managed on a state by state basis by the relevant state government.
 * Further details may be requested by the state government.
 * The details must be renewed every half-year since the date of registration.
 * If they are not renewed then the educational board shall be given a weeks grace period to fill in the details along with a notification from the state government, if it fails to renew details after the grace period then it is no longer considered able to provide courses and correct administration of said courses it may be shut down until it renews the details. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide support to the schools using courses from the educational board that has been shut down.
 * Only Educational boards that are registered in the educational board register may be considered educational boards by law.


 * Article 13 - Apprenticeships Act
 * Define an apprenticeship
 * Define a Lovian Certificate of Apprenticeship
 * What levels and apprenticeships there are and provisions for the Ministry of Commerce to validate further apprenticeships with advice
 * Provisions for tests, examinations or coursework to acquire LCA's
 * Apprenticeship employees
 * Apprenticeship employers (similar to article 7 - 2)
 * What must be provided in an Apprenticeship (similar to article 7 - 3)
 * Apprenticeship grants for private employers

Changes
I'm gonna be precise for once :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:57, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * (6-2.2.3) Added to the clause after agreed changes, changes requirements to be a teacher - Kunarian
 * (6-2.3) Changed regulations on refusing students - Kunarian
 * (6-3) Changed subjects to fit in with new Lovian Certificate of Education system - Kunarian
 * (6-3.3) Oceana and Bredish are separate languages and as such they do not fall under Lovian dialects. Fixed by adding them. solved by the above change - Kunarian
 * (6-3.4) inserted clause to accommodate Oos's suggestion, allows more subjects to be offered from which the pupil will choose. - Kunarian
 * (6-3.6.2) Only mentioning religious indoctrination is way too short-sighted. Added political indoctrination as well.
 * (6-7) Added a comma, and changed meanwhile into meantime, just cuz it sounds better :P
 * (6-8) States can now create fitting legislation on special education.
 * (6-9) Primary schools are now all funded via a School Voucher system which eliminates wealth as a factor - Kunarian
 * (7-2.2.3) Added to the clause after agreed changes, changes requirements to be a teacher - Kunarian
 * (7-2.3) Changed regulations on refusing students - Kunarian
 * (7-3.3.2.1) This way, extremist Buddhist teachings etc. is illegal as well. No need to treat Islam and Christianity separate from other religions. Additionally removed fascist.
 * (7-3.3.3) doesn't > does not.
 * (7-8) see (6-8)
 * (7-9) Secondary schools are now all funded via a School Voucher system which eliminates wealth as a factor

Concerning Article 12 (this will be simple explanations of what I'm writing here) Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 07:10, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * (12-) To be done once I start writing in actual detail

Additions:
 * (6-3.3) As these languages are all spoken in Lovia, with a considerable number of speakers, I changed it to "Languages of Lovia".
 * (6-3.5.2) fix wording to make it clearer.

Comments
Looks good. But I feel like there's a contradiction between the "no teaching children a religious/political POV" line and "states may make religious education possible". —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:28, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

The CNP would also like to see some reform therefore we shall be giving our full reply later today along with a suggestion of changes we feel should be made in addition to these. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 16:30, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

@TM: Not at all. Federal/regular Education is completely free of f.e. crosses above the door and praying. Read this sentence carefully: " Primary schools and their teachers may not try to convince children of a certain religious or political point of view, nor can they make any pupil exercise a religious act if not wanted by the pupil and/or the parents." If the pupil and/or parents agree, religious indoctrination is allowed. If the pupil is on a religious school, he and/or his parents agree with the "indoctrination" (otherwise they wouldn't send their children there), and thus it is allowed. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:34, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

Dammit Oos, I was just getting ready to open the Atheist-Socialist-All Praise Marx School for Regular Proletarian Children :/ You ruin everything :P Otherwise there isn't much controversy with the changes and other than what TM point out its fine...A question though, so states can allow private religious schools on a state-by-state basis. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:40, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

I suggest a small change be made, so it doesn't suggest that Oceana and Bredish are world languages. --Semyon 21:49, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe there is a subtle difference between "world languages" and "languages of the world". --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:38, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

I like this but I suggest that there are two separate language courses, these being...

Languages of the World- Introductions to French, Spanish, German, Chinese and Italian.

Languages of Lovia- Introductions to Oceana, Bredish and Russian

What do others think? Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 10:08, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Considering our demographics, introductions to Limburgish and Dutch are necessary. I understand the desire for some big languages, such as Chinese and German, to be taughed, but I also believe schools have plenty of room for that in the "free time" :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:33, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. How about...

Languages of the World- Introductions to French, Spanish, Chinese, Limburgish and Dutch

Languages of Lovia- Introductions to Oceana, Bredish and Russian

My previous suggestion was only a vague idea Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 10:44, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, I believe we can add this if nobody opposes it :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:49, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Personally I feel that States should be given more choice on these matters. For instance the Main Primary Languages in Sylvania are English and Dutch with main Secondary Languages being French and German. Almost communities speak one of these as their main language and so really English, Dutch, French and German are languages of Sylvania, in Sylvania I'd like it if English was required as a first or second language for all while Dutch, French, German and Oceana (due to Oceana slovak settlements on the Beaver River) were required as second languages in Sylvania. Our state is very multi-lingual and I'd like it if we were given more freedom to continue being so. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 11:41, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * We could simply create a course called "Languages" with mandatory introductions to Oceana, Dutch, and a free choice area for three plus languages. As well as a mandatory, separate English course. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:53, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm about to post my whole truck of ideas, so give me a moment, I had the same kind of idea. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 12:32, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Personally I'd like to propose these ideas: These are ideas currently dealing mainly with Primary Education. I have further ideas to do with Secondary Education to present. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 14:24, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * The changing of the wording of current legislation so that we operate via a School Voucher system which eliminates wealth as a factor in education creating true equality of education. This system would mean granting parents an amount of money to fund each child's education (this money would directly fund their child's education and would never enter the parents hands so would not be used for other things). This grant would also cover transport costs to a certain extent.
 * Or we devolve educational funding down to the States so that each State may decide how it funds the education of their children.
 * We change the wording of the act to make provisions so that we have educational boards (exam boards), which will be recognised by the Minister of Education, that will provide the curriculum for subjects. This way we can truly ensure that children are being taught correctly, exams will help give parents a measure of how well their child is being taught and will help give a universally recognised way of judging the educational levels of a child.
 * Or we do all of this but make it so that States recognise educational boards.
 * We make changes so that the primary subjects are as follows: (also remember that these will be the common names of subjects that will be provided by educational boards, schools will be free to choose which educational board's curriculum they use, all primary school subjects will be considered level 1 educational subjects)
 * Three hours a week subjects:
 * English (level 1)
 * Mathematics (level 1)
 * Arts and Crafts (level 1)
 * Two hours a week subjects:
 * Physical Education (level 1)
 * Citizenship (level 1)
 * Another language of the schools choice from a states list of primary languages (level 1) (need a way to shorten this bit)
 * One hour a week subjects:
 * History (level 1)
 * Geography (level 1)
 * Science (level 1)
 * Computing (level 1)
 * Primary schools are free to choose to provide more classes of any of these subjects, or to provide other level 1 subjects, in order to provide a minimum of twenty-two hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Schools may provide more subjects beyond the minimum twenty-two hours but may provide no more than twenty-five hours of mandatory class every week of the schoolyear.
 * We change the regulations under which a school may refuse a pupil access to their school, first being that a pupil may be refused access to the school should the school consider itself unable to provide proper education due to a lack of resources (this can mean a lack of staff, space and such, stops schools from being overcrowded because they can't refuse access) and add in "previous school's regulations" instead of "school regulations".
 * I also suggest that we allow teachers that have experience to teach, teach by taking a wide assessment that can last up to two weeks.
 * I also suggest we remove fascist unless we also insert communist.
 * My reaction to the proposed changes:
 * School voucher system: Though I'd prefer to keep this centralized for now.
 * Education boards by the States or federally
 * Primary subjects, I propose a few changes:
 * Citizenship > Social education (broader term, will also include the former subject Everyday Life/Health and Care)
 * Another language of the schools choice from a states list of primary languages > Second language (?), also enable schools to provide multiple languages of which one is chosen by the pupil himself.
 * twenty-five > twenty-seven, f.e. swimming courses and religion might take up some time, and 27 hours is still 5,4 hours average per day, which I consider to be not much, compared to the 7-8 hours average in Dutch education.
 * Regulations change
 * Wide assessment: OWTB does not understand this :(
 * Remove fascism/add communism Both terms are covered with far-right and far-left I guess.
 * --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:52, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay so do you want me to help write in implementations of the Federal School Voucher system, Educational Boards (done by states in co-operation with the Ministry of Education?) and Subjects?
 * On the names of Subjects I agree but concerning second language we should put something like "Schools must also choose another level 1 language subject to teach pupils from a list provided by the state" so that Oceana may prioritise Oceana, Sylvania may prioritise it's main languages and Bredish in Clymene and so on and so forth.
 * Also if you're up for further increasing the school day I think that 30 hours a week maximum isn't bad.
 * Further when I said wide assessment I mean a general assessment of a teachers abilities and skills as well as their behaviour so that we can fully ascertain that they truly posses the skills to be a teacher without having a qualification. This could be replaced by having a short course of 3 months in a Lovian University be an allowable way for experienced teachers to gain the right to teach in school without a full qualification.
 * Glad you agree on the last bit. I'll add in my thoughts on Secondary school soon. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 15:41, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * @writing: sure; @language: Well, if states get to write educational bills, I'm pretty sure Oceana will be a separate mandatory subject in the state. @30 hours: the more education, the better :) @assessment:  --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:47, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Kunarian about letting states choose the languages studied. I also agree that schools are free to provide more level 1 classes. We could also look to creating an exam board to oversee the curriculum.

Below are a couple of my ideas on primary education.


 * Three hours a week....
 * English
 * Mathematics
 * Sciences (including basic introductions to biology, chemistry and physics)


 * Two hours a week....
 * Social Education (including Everyday Life, Citizenship and life skills such as cooking)
 * Arts and Crafts (including arts, drama and music)
 * Languages (a regional language, such as Oceana or Bredish, as chosen by the state as well as an introduction to a world language such as French, Spanish or Dutch)
 * Physical Education (including sport, fitness and swimming)
 * Social Studies (including study of both Lovian and world history, as well as study of world religions)
 * Computing

I don't think there should be any classes promoting any particular political or religious views, but instead children are given information from both sides of arguments, so they have the tools to form their own opinions.

Also, all this talk of education made me wonder, does Lovia have a school leaving certificate, similar to English A levels. If it does not, I believe we should introduce one that provides them with the skills nescessary for either continuing their education at university, or entering the world of work. We should call it something like the Lovian Certificate of Education, or LCE for short

--Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 15:52, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * @religious views: The entire idea of this change is mainly to allow religious education, if the parents/pupils agree (=choose for a religious school). Mainstream education, which you seem to prefer, will have to be available to all children as well. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:55, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

I think that religious education is fine, as long as it is with permission from parents/pupils and does not force extreme religious or political views upon children Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 16:11, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Frijoles: I don't think we should throw subjects together, I think it's important to keep things separate so that students get a more in depth education on that particular subject. Also I feel we shouldn't tell schools how to fill the minimum 22 hours of school as they would under the plans you have, but rather allow schools to manage their own affairs which I'm sure you can support as that allows them to add in other subjects if they wish and specialise more on subjects if they wish.
 * Also the different level subjects that I suggested would be a Lovian Certificate of Education or LCE as you've said just level 1, which is primary school level. Level 2 and 3 would be secondary school (with apprenticeships available at level 3 too). Level 4 and 5 would be university and other higher education.
 * Maybe I should write a separate act for educational boards and subjects and such? we'll get it passed as part of this reform. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:14, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Being such a large act it might be best to split it into different sections; would make it easier to take in and pass. Perhaps we could try and use one of the existing curriculums/timetables like the one used in Clymene or for other schools. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:21, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * So I'll get writing on an Act for educational boards. Also what do you mean about using existing curriculums/timetables like the one used in Clymene? Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:24, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

@Kunarian: Yes I completely agree that schools be given freedom in regards to curriculum and what subjects to teach. My ideas were just guidelines that schools could change if they wished. Also I was a bit confused about these levels but now I see what you mean and it all sounds good Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 16:30, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand what you were going for, we've done that already by giving a rigid base they must keep to but also by still giving them breathing space within the minimum they must supply so they can choose their own curriculum to a degree. And I'm glad we've sorted out the confusion, however you must be given credit I didn't know what to call the qualifications and now they shall be called Lovian Certificates of Education. :) Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:36, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks for using my suggestion for the name Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 16:44, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Under my calculations, this will only increase our budget by L$100,000,000 as Lower school education funding will be replaced by this system, however it is likely that a few students will have parents rich enough so that they pay personally for their child's education rather than the state, so we will probably under shoot my target. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 07:10, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Should we also add in illegality punishments so that we can be more clear cut on what happens when you break the law? Also I've started the skeletal structure of the Educational Boards Act, it'll detail the basic subjects on which the Ministry of Education can build. I'm going to look at Timemasters ideas now to get a better idea of what we're going for. Also I've added in another bit onto the refusing pupils access bit so that in other cases you can go to the Ministry of Education for help. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 07:10, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Your changes in the Primary/Secondary Act are all good :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:55, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * glad, I'm going to post my ideas for Secondary Education in a moment too. :) Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 09:30, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Kunarian has done some good work here! I've also got a few vague ideas about higher education that I might bring to the table Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 10:52, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

@Kunarian: I know you probably have lots of great ideas about the LCE, but allow me to suggest a couple of things. I suggest that the LCE is made up of these components, which I hope will give students both a firm grounding in core subjects, and other skills which will help them in higher education or the world of work.


 * Core subjects (Must be studied by all students taking the LCE)
 * English
 * Mathematics
 * Science
 * Language (either a Language of Lovia, such as Oceana or Bredish, or a Language of the World, such as Spanish, Chinese or Dutch)


 * Optional subjects
 * Students choose either three or four other subjects to study from a long list which includes subjects such as World Religions, Arts, History and Physical Education. They choose their optional subjects according to their interests and abilities. The decision is made a few months before they start their LCE's, after consultation with their teachers and parents.

So let me know what you think :) Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 11:09, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well Certificates of Education around the world are not made up of subjects. They ARE the subjects. What you're thinking about it the curriculum. Also to agree: English, Mathematics and Science are definitely going to be core in the secondary education. And after your suggestion I will add in the language additionally. Also to agree, extra subjects should be the child's choice in secondary education compared to primary education where it is largely chosen by the school. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 11:16, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Yes I know that the certificates are the subjects, I just meant how, with English GCSEs for example, all students have to take GCSEs in English, Maths and Science. Thanks for adding language by the way Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 11:33, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I don't like science for everybody.. We should keep the current profiles. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:45, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I propose we have two layers of secondary education:
 * The first years with mandatory subjects, such as English, another language, maths, science, biology, arts (incl. music etc).
 * The last years with more choice. F.e. still English and maths mandatory, but other subjects to be decided by the States.
 * --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:47, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I've only just seen your ideas, I'll make appropriate modifications to my starting ideas after I get back so that we can all have something to reference from. However the current ideas I've made are incomplete and I've made a mistake with languages I will correct. Though they are making the base for the three programs (which I do like btw, they give a bit more variance and freedom to schools). Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 11:52, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Ideas for secondary education: I'm not finished but I thought I'd post my ideas so far as I need to go somewhere for an hour or so, so that we can develop further. I think that Apprenticeships may need a further Act, I'm sorry if some people think I'm complicating things but I really feel we can make some real reforms here. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 11:48, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * First of all we divide Secondary education into two parts. The first part being from the age of 12-16 and the second part being from the age of 17-18. This will mean that children have to remain in school for the first part but may decide on whether to continue at school or get an apprenticeship in the second part. This is important because it allows a child to make the choice of going into employment early with a firm footing but still having had learned a strong curriculum, this system has proven to help lower youth unemployment and give people who simply do not do well at further education and university a chance of making their way in the world. Apprenticeships will mean learning by doing a job, so you learn a profession, the employer will also provide time for you to learn a basic Level 3 curriculum of probably Mathematics and English and maybe a little bit more although I feel that Maths and English is reasonable when you're also learning a career. When you finish an apprenticeship you're likely to be able to go for another (higher level) apprenticeship with the same employer or be employed. Also you get paid while on an apprenticeship, although it will be a reduced wage as the employer is also paying for the education of the child they are taking on.
 * Educational programmes should be changed to reflect the new division, as well as to reflect the new way in which the Ministry of Education will preside over subjects. This is the education for 12-16.
 * 12-16 Program
 * Four hours a week subjects:
 * Mathematics (level 2)
 * Two hours a week subjects:
 * English (level 2)
 * Literature (level 2)
 * Art (level 2)
 * Physical Education (level 2)
 * Social Education (level 2)
 * Technology (level 2)
 * Science (level 2)
 * The school must provide one of the languages from the list of languages provided by the State Government at level 2
 * One hours a week subjects:
 * History (level 2)
 * Geography (level 2)
 * Computing (level 2)
 * Secondary schools are free to choose to provide more classes of any of these subjects, or to provide other level 2 subjects considered valuable, in order to provide a minimum of thirty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Secondary schools may provide more classes beyond the thirty hour minimum but none beyond the maximum of fourty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * 17-18 Program
 * Five hours a week subjects:
 * English (level 3)
 * Mathematics (level 3)
 * The school must provide one of the languages from the list of languages provided by the State Government at level 3
 * Additional subjects must be taught for five hours a week each.
 * Secondary schools must provide a wide selection of level 3 subjects for pupils to choose from to study. Pupils may choose to study a minimum of three extra subjects to study to bring their total time within school to 30 hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Pupils may choose to study two more subjects beyond the thirty hour minimum, bringing their total time within school to 40 hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * This is the apprenticeship program for 17-18.
 * The apprenticeships are provided by public and private employers, the apprenticeship program is run by the Ministry of Commerce in co-operation with the Ministry of Education.
 * The current programs are too much based on sciences. We need at least the addition of an economics program and a culture/society program. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:04, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Will take advice and sort out a more general basic program. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 12:31, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Good work, here's my initial feedback.


 * I like...
 * That you've made two stages of education, 12-16 and 17-18
 * That you've written the curriculum so that children have a firm grounding in English and Maths, which I feel is very important


 * I don't like
 * That your plans mean that 12 year old children would have to choose between the Technical, Theoretical or Professional courses. Whilst this is a good idea, a child of 12 may be too young to choose which program they would like to take for the rest of their education.
 * I think there should be more room for History, Geography and Arts, particularly in the Theoretical Program

Anyway some good work, and I'm glad your putting so much work into this :D Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 12:16, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Children don't choose them, the school chooses a program to offer (or multiple) and their parents would chose the school or program at the school. In England almost all schools are theoretically based and so you may feel that this is the right way but we must offer freedom to schools in these programs. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 12:31, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Mmm.. That's what my two layer system is for. The children will be 15/16 when they choose a profile (f.e. economics or science). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:40, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I understand what you're getting at, shall we turn the programs into programs for the 17-18 years and then create a general program for 12-16? Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 12:49, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

@Kunarian: Yes, I wasn't doubting your system (which actually sounds great) I just think it would be more sensible to introduce those three programs when the children are say, 15 or 16, when they've had more time to think about what they would like to do in the future Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 12:53, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * @17-18/12-16: okay :P Though, I agree with Frijoles on the History/Geography part. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:55, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand about the History and Geography however in the 17-18 programs, it's students choice beyond the basic programs. However with 12-16 yes there will be mandatory History and Geography. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 13:04, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * We could make it very simple. Why not just make the 17/18 programs complete choice, with the exception of maths and English? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:18, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * True, if other people agree I am all for it. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 13:22, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

@Oos: I agree, but I'd rather it was complete choice with the exception of Maths, English, Language and possibly Science :)

@Kunarian: Are LCE's awarded at the age of 16 or 18? Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 13:31, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, science is not necessary if you are going to be working in business or culture. Besides, the pupils have had science until the age of 16, so the basics should be there already :) A language course however can be useful. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:35, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Oos: 17-18 is when specialisation begins to happen however Mathematics, English and the extra language are important to basic operating in Lovian society, as my changes reflect.
 * @Frijoles: You get level 1 LCEs at the age of 12 for your Primary school subjects, level 2 LCEs at the age of 16 for your early Secondary school subjects while level 3 LCEs you get at the age of 18. You must complete some sort of examination or test, whether this is one at the age of awarding certificates (such as 12 for your level 1 LCEs) or by a unit basic course similar to Btecs in the UK. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 13:44, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Kunar: that's what I said too :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:51, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Fantastic, I hope we're all in agreement then on the newly drawn up secondary education proposals? Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:37, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:45, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I've just added in the changes that complete the Secondary Act according to our agreements. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 16:02, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Excellent! Thanks for explaining, as it makes everything more clear and thanks as well for taking the time and effort to reform Lovian education for the better Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 16:30, August 21, 2013 (UTC) Just pointing out things that need clarification:
 * The bit about "parents agreeing to take doctrinal classes" so I can create the Marxist School for Gifted Comrades, just as long as the parents sending the children to the school agree? I mean would'nt the parents know before hand that the class is being offered anyway?
 * The part about voucher, can you explain this too me directly? I think in America we have a different meaning when stating school voucher it usually means when parents send there children to private school they want a "voucher" in return meaning "Well I dun payed meh tax dollars not to send meh childs to public skool so I deserve a voucher back." But that isn't what is going on here right? Also wouldn't public schools be free though, so why would they charge?
 * Thanks for the apprenticeships!
 * Overall great act! Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:36, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * You are not, marxism falls under far-left, and extremist doctrinal classes may not be given. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:42, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay:
 * No. and No. State schools are not free, originally they were funded with no direction directly by the government, now there's an actual process behind funding them. This is how we fund all schools in Lovia now so State schools are funded in the same way, per pupil. Technically if you think schools funded through taxes are free then every school in Lovia is now 'free'.
 * Thanks? well hey, someone had to get them done! :L
 * and thanks. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:35, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

OKAY! let me answer you Marcus in a moment. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 17:04, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

OOOH! attention, should we add in a School register so that we can keep track of things better? Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 19:01, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I thought I'd mention that Russian is a world language, not a Lovian language. :P Anyway, I still am not seeing the real benefit of school vouchers. I would prefer that children attended state schools (managed jointly by parents (boards), states, and fed. gov.), and if their parents don't want to, they will have to pay extra. Anyway, is the following correct for the proposal?: All students get a general education degree sort of thing after completing secondary school at 16, and then can either go for two more years for another degree, or do an apprenticeship, or something else. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:31, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * State schools aren't managed by parents (boards) at all though, some may be but it isn't required, maybe we should make provisions for schools to have to do so?
 * And on State Vouchers, why should people be penalised for not having money? That's the question. Why do you prefer people going to State schools anyways? I don't see how this affects this as if State schools are providing a better education then parents will send their children there. What I have a big problem is that parents with wealth have all the choice and don't have to worry about their child achieving because they can pay for the school that will suit their child best, whereas poorer families do not have the same due to lack of wealth. This reform would eliminate wealth as a barrier to a child's education which I'm sure is something you want to happen as well as me.
 * I'll put it here in my own words. All students receive a general education up until 16 and can go on for two more years for a more specialised education or they can do an apprenticeship. After the age of 18 they are free to leave school or do whatever. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 20:17, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're assuming state schools are not as good as private schools, but they are good because they aren't underfunded. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:51, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not assuming anything, and State schools are hardly underfunded around the world comparing £26,000 per child in the UK in state schools and £12,000 per child in the UK in private schools, you find similar trends around the world. Besides if the only reason you're opposing making education equal for all is because you feel I prefer one type of school to another then I suggest you rethink your priorities. I'd prefer if we could give things to the poor of this nation rather than restrict them due to a petty misunderstanding. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 23:19, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no petty misunderstanding (though you did say "suit their child best"... according to the parent. I think a decision like that should be left to the Health and Education ministries). I just don't think that this choice for parents is necessary. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:20, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then why do you oppose this reform that gives greater freedom and equality? (You don't think that a parent should be able to choose where to send their child to school? Not even if they do it in conjunction with the child? why? they know their child best and they'll choose the school that they feel will give their child the best chance in life. I seriously doubt that the reason you wish to take away choice, which I may say isn't very socially liberal at all, is because you're concerned for the child's chances and I feel it's politically motivated which really is not the right way to go about this decision. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 06:09, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've been thinking about it, and I don't like choice over education. All children should receive an equal education. Parents should not be able to choose their child's education that freely. In other matters, it is different, such as mental/physical health issues that require special schools, etc. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:35, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * So you favour uniformity over choice? I'm also assuming that according to your statement about mental issues that you think people who are different (for instance someone with Aspergers Syndrome) should be forced into 'special schools'? To be honest I can't see a way of compromising with you that doesn't make it harder on the poor, reduces choice and forces people to be treated like sardines in a tin being told what to do, where to be and when to be there. I feel that currently you're only going to be in opposition to this bill in the end, so until that changes I'm going to wait for supporters of reform to comment on further developments we're making towards making education more equal, more adaptable to the child and more based on choice. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 13:44, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't make it harder on the poor. I'm not an expert on Asperger's, but I don't think it should be forced into a special school. Decisions based on health would be made by experts in the MoH and MoE, taking in parent's opinions, but not just blunt parental choice. Why is parental choice so good? It's not about them, it's about a child. Also, how does parental choice make education more equal? It makes education more unequal, not equal. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:57, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes it does, because richer families will simply be able to pay for the best education and once again the two tier education system will continue. Then who do you plan on forcing into these 'special schools'?
 * On parental choice, since when do experts take what's best for the child as first place? And yes it is about the child, which is why the people closest to the child, their parents, should be guiding them while they're at an age where they are not ready to make choices for themselves. Under your proposed idea of experts managing everything, things would simply be more complex and school freedom would be at an absolute zero.
 * It's about having a choice about how your child is educated rather than being pushed towards the cheapest option rather than the one that is best for their child. And please do tell me how more choice makes things unequal? Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:29, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Private schools won't be better than public schools, so it will be equal. :P People unable to function in a normal school (mentally disabled) or who have a disability that would prefer to be in a special school (deaf, blind), etc. Since when do they not? They will, since it would be their job to do that. How do you know parents will make the right decision? Experts won't manage everything, just some things. Parents would still be able to choose between different schools if it's approved by an expert (who will take into account parental choice). School freedom isn't important to me. What cheapest option? State schools will be of very good quality. Choice makes things unequal by having some children receive different educations. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:25, August 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Time we're not arguing that, and besides the world trend disagrees with you. But if you give schools extra funds to make provisions for that child then they will gain social skills that are vital to life as well as enjoying a normal life rather than being segregated and treated differently in a negative way. Experts are disconnected, parents are not, you can't decide everything with facts and figures. What some things would they manage?
 * The next thing you say is confusing, you say that parents will be able to choose between approved schools in your new system, which is what would happen anyway under a voucher system. Then you say school freedom isn't important, please be straight, do you want to give parents a choice or not?
 * So receiving different educations is wrong is it? Well hate to shock you but that's what's happening and what will happen. This ludicrous claim that having variance in the educational system increases inequality is ridiculous. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 07:33, August 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * We have magic in Lovia. Trust me, they will be good. :P That's a good point, but from my experience, they're distracting to other children, etc. Experts can decide what's is best for the child. Disconnected from what? They will make the right decision. They'd approve some schools for children, and the parents could choose between those. I want to give parents a choice as a compromise between anti-freedom like me and pro-freedom like you, without allowing to straight up decide where their child goes to school. Well, I wouldn't say it's wrong, but what's the benefit of the differences? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:26, August 23, 2013 (UTC)

(reset) Be serious Time, you cannot use magics to make things better than how they are in real life, and further we've been trying consistently in this term of Congress to bring things to a realistic level so pretending things to be better goes thoroughly against one of the main focuses of this term. And from my experience schools are rarely required to make proper provisions and children who are segregated end up living with support for the rest of their lives.

And I again do not think that it is a compromise, limiting freedom then calling it a compromise when you really want to limit it more is not the way forwards. The way forwards is to simply give freedom, we already have the protections in place, all schools will be required to ensure the child a broad curriculum until they are capable of thinking for themselves and to ensure proper teaching standards, that work is ensured by inspectors. All I see in your proposal is another level of unneeded bureaucracy which will only limit freedom of choice when really and truly all the help we need from 'experts' is carried out by inspectors who ensure that every school is up to standards.

And differences are good, they allow a priority of learning that might be important to a child's future ambitions, their local area or state or their style of learning. A child who wants to become involved in movies will need a different education from a child who wants to become a scientist, and a child who learns best through theory will need a different curriculum from a child that learns through doing and not to mention the differences between the social and economic environments of a state like Oceana and say Clymene.

Difference is good because it caters to everyone's needs and wants. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 14:52, August 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * It was a joke. :P But seriously, they will be exemplary schools. They'll be properly maintained and have good teachers, etc. It is a compromise... between your freedom and my lack of freedom. I was talking about primary and early secondary school. Specialized educations like that will be available to the adolescents once they're old enough to make an informed decision themselves (not their parents) about what they want to study. The freedom I dislike is for parents to be able to choose their child's education from the beginning. Children are not owned by their parents. The education is for the children, not the parents. The freedom of choice for parents doesn't make sense. Parents shouldn't have so much control over their child's education. If they want to change things, they'll have to get involved with the school their child is going to. Things like that. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:10, August 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no personal objection against deleting "and/or their parents" everywhere, as long as freedom is maintained. Parents exert some kind of power over their children anyway when they are still young. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:36, August 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Time: Education is for the children but while they are not informed enough they need guidance and parents are the best for this. And no parents do not own their children but neither do officials sitting behind desks. We can change it to make it so that the child should have a say in things but really what child at the age of 6 is going to really know where they want to go? it's a matter of guardianship and guidance Time not some stupid idea you seem to have that a Parent choosing something for their child while they are not knowledgable or old enough to do so is thoroughly wrong.


 * The problem I find with your position is you seem to be really anti-parent but are perfectly happy to replace a parent with an 'expert'. You don't like the idea of a parent choosing their child's school or choosing something because they know their child but you're perfectly happy if you take parent out of the sentence and insert expert, something I find hypocritical and thoroughly wrong with your ideology. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 12:24, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

IDk about a school register, maybe it should be handled at a state-by-state basis. Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:38, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * We can make provisions for States to be required to have a school register. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 20:17, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Also... please, none of that theoretical/professional/technical stuff in the 12-16 period. They should be taught (mostly) the same things, with minor specializations based on the student's wishes. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:45, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's been solved, we've moved to the system you prefer. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 20:17, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

@Kunarian: By a school register do you mean a list of all schools in Lovia? If you do that would be a good idea, as it would keep everything organised and we could work out if there were any areas where new schools were needed.

@TimeMaster: Yes I agree, because I think that children who are 12 years old are too young to choose a program which could shape their whole career. And by the way, yes Russian is a world language, I just put it as a Lovian language due to the large Russian population in Seven :P Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 20:06, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes I do mean that, we're going to devolve that responsibility to the States as people seem to prefer that. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 20:17, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I've added a few subjects to act as a wide base, it should be fine to begin with and legislation will make room for the Ministry of Education to adapt. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 23:14, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not approve of the subjects list. It is way too limited. Please give the states the right to decide on the subjects they wish to offer; f.e. by saying that states may decide to add to the list. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:45, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * No I understand, I've woken up with a better idea. Subjects that can be provided at each level will be for States to decide (like you say) with advice (which you can listen to or not) from the Minister of Education. Of course though the subjects listed in the law (the basic curriculum) will be the only predefined subjects that will be in the law. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:32, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's what I meant :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:51, August 23, 2013 (UTC)

RIGHT, I'm going away for the weekend and won't be back until monday afternoon. I'll try and write some stuff up and hopefully we can have a completed reform ready to move to the second chamber by tuesday or so. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 12:56, August 23, 2013 (UTC)

Okay so I've made changes and removed a line that would allow state schools to be really discriminatory in who they refuse and such. I've also put in the qualifications that these subjects are aimed to do certain things, that means you have flexibility with subjects but ultimately may not veer massively away. I'm just throwing this together so far, feel free to comment, I'll work forwards on it over the day. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 12:24, September 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll keep track of it :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:27, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, I removed the illegalities sections, they may be added later. This HAS TO pass as soon as possible! --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:14, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

New NSO Recognition
The list I proposed are of all created locations (trying to whip you into creating them? :P) which are a number of Hamlets, Villages, and two neighborhoods in Sofasi. If you want to please add localities on the big map, but you should create them first. @Novosevensk - You can change your status from Village to Town, that doesn't need a vote. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:12, August 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Recognized Hamlets are:
 * Albany, Bardeyow, Bergdorf, Boborbrod, Boynitz, Brunswick, Burke's Dam Bytack, Centreville, Clinton, Cold Hill, Douglas, Dubnitz, Eastwood, Estarois,    Feltmolen, Fort Johnson, Glesga, Hawke's Wood, Heighnow, Hewlett, Jason's Ranch, Koningsdorp, Lemburg, Lisney, Long Brook, Magna Augusta, Manchester, Merrimack, Milton, Neale Downs, Newcastle, Newmouth, New Aberdeen, Newport-Forest, Nóngyè, Oostdorp, Orwnitz, Overbanken-Forest, Rosendorp, Rosswood, Rybachye, Scotland, Severnybana, Skelington, Slowane, Stanley, Sternaw, Sunderland, Thameen Timber Harbor, Topolcane, Tshadsa, Tyrstead, Verland, Vrabelvrutke, Westwall, Willard, Windthorn, Xiandu
 * Recognized Neighborhoods are:
 * Intercity, Milerose
 * Recognized Villages are:
 * Abington, Cornwall, Dien Village, Nordhorn, Oostermond, Pool, Righow, Westmark

Minor fix, Dien Village and Righow are villages :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:41, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Another update: Sofasi should be upgrated to city status (considering its population). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:42, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * When a town switches status with popualtion it doesn't need to be affirmed by Congress...It just happens :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:06, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, but we might as well update them in one go è :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:02, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Haa then Sofasi is already updated :P so lets go pass these already :D Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:07, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the neighborhoods should be voted on separately (not at the same times as the hamlets and villages). And shouldn't we include the red-linked hamlets in that list as well? 77topaz (talk) 20:04, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, and, additionally, New Aberdeen is missing from the hamlets list. 77topaz (talk) 04:25, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

I think we should try and write the articles of the red-linked hamlets first. I might try and do a few in the near future Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 10:12, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

This looks good. Give it another day here so we can be sure that we've got all current settlements with a page. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 14:26, August 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * @Frijoles- I would say yes, but maybe its more of an incentive for governors to write the articles :P and by tomorrow ill be second chamber bound.Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:14, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Nowhere in Seven is on the list, but maybe this is intentional. I don't know. --Semyon 18:04, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Let's add the red-linked hamlets too. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:57, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * As I'm no longer able to read everything on the way it should be read - yes it's 3:03 in the night here :P - I'm gonna say I have to agree with TM on the red-linked hamlets. I'll confirm my statement in the morning when I'm sobered up :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 01:06, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Redlinks- We wouldn't pass stuff that wasn't made yet right? If they get made and done, then sure of course they should be made, but only Clymene and Oceana are completely done. Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:40, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand why you guys don't want to add the redlinks, but imagine one of those hamlets created a few days after the NSO is updated. Then we'd have to update the list again, and again, and again... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:44, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * And because they already exist, they just don't have articles yet. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:40, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then add em. :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:14, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I added red links even though its not much of an incentive to just put em' there :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:45, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I'll bring this to 2nd. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:43, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Tis' does not have Sylvania. Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:34, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

It is does not have Sylvania? I not do stand under you're grammar. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:39, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

The list does not have Sylvanian settlements, OKAY? Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:42, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Oos, I think Windthorn was changed to Nordhorn, so we shouldn't include it in the list. And Marcus, I think it'd be easier to add the Sylvanian settlements here as well, it'd save us having to hold yet another vote. 77topaz (talk) 20:00, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I said in the begining if you want to add settlments, add them :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:55, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

024. Vague idea concerning reintroduction of midterms
This is an idea I had about three minutes ago, and I haven't really thought it through carefully yet. But what would you think if we were to introduce midterm elections again - not as before 2011, when more people were simply added to Congress, but having roughly a third of Congress which is elected in say June rather than January? So 70 MOTCs could be elected in January, and then another 30 in June, but when elections came round again in January, the June MOTCs would retain their seats until the summer.

This could have a few advantages. Having more elections is more exciting and boosts activity. Reshuffles would occur more often, forcing users to remain active for longer to ensure they maintain their political position. New users would have a chance to join congress sooner, and in a more minor role with possibly less responsibility.

The way I see it, new governments wouldn't be formed after midterms, unless the balance of power shifted to the extent that the opposition was able and willing to topple the old government after elections.

I don't know whether users who already had seats would be able to stand in midterms with different characters. I suppose they would have to, otherwise it would be terribly biased towards parties that were able to get new members between elections. Perhaps the system could be spiced up slightly, e.g. midterms operating by party list or elected from constituencies.

Any thoughts? --Semyon 19:11, September 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * I like the idea of constituencies in the midterms. Although maybe we should keep it simple. Here's a few ideas:
 * Do voting on a state by state basis with each state giving a proportional/equal amount of seats to congress, distributing seats via D'hondt
 * Do voting on a state by state basis with constituencies with voting similarly weighed like in the Sylvanian State Elections
 * Do voting on a state by state/national basis with a single transferable voting system
 * responses? Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 19:48, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna use my one-day wikibreak to reflect on this :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:25, September 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hopefully some other things too - like eating, sleeping and being a productive and valuable member of Montfordian society. :P --Semyon 09:19, September 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * :o Actually, "scientific philosophy" and "hating Dutch Railways" was more like my day :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:23, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Could we revive this discussion? Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 07:44, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

We could make the system better, by holding mid-term elections to replace people who have been inactive in Congress for more than three months. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:49, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * How would you decide who is and isn't inactive? Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 10:24, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said, three months no edits in First or Second Chamber = inactive. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:32, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Seems reasonable, should we also have a shorter election period for the midterms? they won't be a full election after all. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 10:42, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * One week? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:45, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * One week for nominations and one week for voting? Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 10:50, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:54, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

033. New Supreme Court Judges
After the expiration of the old SCJs term yesterday, we need to elect new ones. Please put forward candidacies for the job. We'll vote on them in the second chamber. --Semyon 10:54, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

Candidacies

 * Sylvester Tso
 * Dalia Donia
 * John Paul Hrádske

I'd prefer to amend the Constitution to change the term to a year. We don't use the court, anyway. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:34, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

@TimeMaster: Good idea! Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 18:30, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

Is the term for SCJs only six months? I would agree with changing the term to a year, it fits more with the other elections which are all also held annually. 77topaz (talk) 20:20, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to propose it. I'll give it my support. In the meantime, this is what the constitution requires. --Semyon 22:07, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

Supreme Court Change

 * The term of each Supreme Court Judge lasts for one year, or shorter, if they resign due to personal reasons or a conflict of interests, or if the Judges declare their inability to judge the case.

I changed terms from six months to one year to coincide with congressional inauguration and not renew them half way through as well. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:33, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:24, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * --Semyon 13:37, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 13:50, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * To clarify, the words "six months" will be changed to "one year". That's it. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:50, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why are we voting in the First Chamber? :P 77topaz (talk) 03:40, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm so hipster I statred a trend to Ironically vote in the first chamber. #yolo #usingitironically #don'tkillme #MOVEitTOtheSECONDCHAMBER Marcus/Michael Villanova 04:08, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * We used to vote here before (to move bills on), but someone said voting was illegal or summink. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 12:34, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, if there's nothing to add and we all agree, why not hold a pre-vote vote? :P If nobody reacts it seems like nobody cares... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:51, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

To clear things out: the term of the judges had already passed before this vote was even being held; therefore, we are currently without judges, and need to hold a vote for new ones. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:11, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

034. Making Primary Education Free
We must pass, according to international law, a reform of the reform which makes it beyond doubt that primary education is free, this means simply: This was raised by Semyon and we should deal with other issues separately as we need to obey international law (whether you think fortunately or not) and this needs to be done. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 22:56, September 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * removing parental requirements
 * removing the rich cut-off for primary education
 * remove tuition clause

I agree! Primary education should definitely be free! Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 05:55, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

This is too vague for me, could you give me a line to line revision? Then I can comment on it as well. Especially because removing parental requirements seems impossible. --O u WTB 06:11, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

I like what you're proposing, Hoffmann. That's what I tried telling Oos yesterday. My thoughts:
 * the funds for education should stay ithin the education system, as parents should not have to worry about the financial side like that
 * If some stuffy billionnaire wants to send their child to a free primary school, it's their right too. But honestly more than likely they'd send them to some $50,000/year elite college or something.
 * Definately. Students should not have a tuition to pay per se, but we could try something like the Canadian model, where students study (publically) free, education costs are covered via taxes and a portion of those are used for schools, which parents are able to select which one it goes to. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:58, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with the three points that Horton has made here! Everyone should have the right to send their child to a free primary school Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 16:45, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's what we're doing Frijoles. I'd hope you wouldn't test my patience on this matter and stop with the rhetoric so that we can abide by international law. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:18, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

All I'm proposing is ensuring we're staying within international law. I'm glad you agree, I do too now having thought it over but I must make a point or two in reply to yours: Hope this clears things up. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 14:08, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * They are, parents don't have to worry, they simply choose the school, fill in a form and their child goes there.
 * They can. However what the current legislation does is ensures that parents who can pay, should pay, it's only fair I feel to do so. Using the taxes of the least well off to subsidise the education of the richest is wrong.
 * On your final point Horton, that is basically the system. I would hope you would understand now what it is, let me state the way it works for secondary school:
 * Parents choose the school they want their child to go to.
 * Parents fill in a simple form for the Ministry of Education to state where their child is receiving education.
 * Funds go directly from the MoE to the school which their child is going to.
 * Parents who are roughly in the upper middle class of earnings have to pay half the tuition. This at most will be L$7,500.
 * Parents who are in the upper class of earnings have to pay the full tuition. This at most will be L$15,000.
 * Concerning the system, primary education is the same, but anyone can get it free including the rich (which while I think is wrong, the poor subsidising the rich, is in line with international law).

While I don't agree with the rich being "subsidized", it is their right to send their children to good free education, so we cannot deny them that. I will not agree to them having to pay tuition (in part or in whole) for public schools, though we could compensate by increasing the proportion of education-earmarked taxes to make up for that. HORTON11 : •  14:36, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * But that's the thing, it's not really free is it, the least well off will pay taxes which will go towards paying for the children of the rich (who could easily afford to pay the tuition) to go to school. Understand that under this system everyone's children will go to good schools of their choice but also understand that those who are in the upper few percentages of wealth will pay out of their own pocket so that the least well off do not have to pay extra taxes.
 * And you don't have to have them paying tuition for public schools in your state, you can have the tuition at zero, and the rich will not pay a dime, but that's a choice to be made by the state governments.
 * And we should not earmark any percentage of taxes for anything, we need a flexible government with a flexible budget so that should we need to increase spending somewhere, we can access all the funds of government instead of possibly having to raise taxes even more because there's plenty of money available but we can't use it because it's been 'earmarked' for something else. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:46, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

@Horton: remember, we are only talking about primary education here :) I very much would like to see rich kids still amongst "normal" youth in primary school. Secondary school is summink else :) --O u WTB 17:22, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

OWTB's proposal
This is from the primary education act, same changes can also be implemented to secondary.
 * All primary schools within Lovia are funded by a School Voucher system.
 * A School Voucher system operates via a system of grants from the Ministry of Education to a primary school for each pupil they have to pay for that pupil ' s education within Lovia.
 * Schools are granted an amount towards each pupil ' s education, this grant is not to be given to the parents. The Ministry of Education must create documents that shall be used to register where their child is currently receiving education so that the grant may be given directly to the child's school.
 * The current grant per child is L$11,000.
 * These documents must be simple, easy to understand and must not be misleading, there must also be a way to trace who filled in the documents.
 *  To obtain the grant, at least one parent must be a Lovian citizen. 
 *  Parents wealthy enough to make tuition provisions for their child without state assistance should do so. 
 *  Parents earning over L$100,000 collectively will only be entitled to half of the grant. 
 *  Parents earning over L$250,000 collectively will not be entitled to any of the grant. 
 * Primary schools may not exceed their costs over L$11,000 in their budgets.

Replaced tuition by education. Removed the citizen part. Remodelled our payment structure. Added a clause for expensive private education. --O u WTB 06:31, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree however not to the alteration that could allow uncontrolled primary spending. The grant is more than enough to educate these children, simply say that Primary schools may not charge tuition. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 07:10, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Better? --O u WTB 07:12, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd think we should remove it as thinking about it a school might need to slightly overspend if they're making a large expansion. Sorry to be difficult. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 07:46, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe simply add a clause like "If the school needs an extra budget, it can go to the Ministry" or summink? :P --O u WTB 16:53, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well remove the one about exceeding costs. I think we should leave it up to States about how they provide extra funding to their schools. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:18, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

A Health Care Reform (not insurance, and yes I'm still here)
So, awhile back when I was appointed Minister of Health, I said I would try to pass a Bismarck model health care system (yay, fun). After asking for suggestions and help multiple times, I received minimal responses...So here is rather a small health CARE reform.


 * 1) It is illegal to turn down healthcare to anyone who needs necessary and/or immediate medical care.
 * 2) This is includes serious injury, diseases, and conditions.
 * 3) Anyone who is below the poverty line is eligible to receive government health insurance.
 * 4) Government health insurance will cover necessary and/or immediate medical care.
 * 5) If one does not have health insurance, but receives healthcare will be required to pay the bill with their own money.
 * 6) If one proves that another caused them to require the healthcare, then they may file for the bill to be transferred to the one who caused them to require healthcare.
 * 7) The case will be reviewed by the Ministry of Health and then it will be decided who will pay the bill.

--Quarantine Zone (talk) 20:38, October 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * Two things: sentence three seems not-grammatical; I believe cases like 3.3 should be handled by the Ministry of Health, as well as the Supreme Court. --O u WTB 09:30, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

Haven't we already got government healthcare systems in Clymene, Sylvania and Oceana, and plus I'm planning to set one up in Kings. Also, I'd prefer a system where everybody is covered, not just people below the poverty lineFrijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 18:22, October 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * Agreed. We should have a public healthcare system covering everyone and most basic healthcare needs. Perhaps a hybrid Bismack/Beveridge system. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:31, October 28, 2013 (UTC)

This is a bad idea. We've already got healthcare systems on a state level. Simply build a requirement for states to create healthcare systems instead of destroying all the work we've done to replace it with a lesser system. Also "the poverty line" what is that in relation to Lovian law? there is no definition, that needs to be fixed. Also I'll need you to justify section 3. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 22:20, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

Not to sound mean, but, this law made no sense. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:26, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

New proposal
Skrew it. This is the new one. :)

--Quarantine Zone (talk) 21:00, October 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) All states are required to form a health system that provides health care to all people and gives the option of government health insurance.
 * 2) State health systems may not infringe on the option to receive private insurance or private care.
 * 3) All private health insurance plans are now tax deductible.
 * Looks better :P Though - this has to do with my perfect level of English :P - 1.1 and 1.2 might need some further explanation :P --O u WTB 09:33, October 30, 2013 (UTC)

Not bad, but I'd prefer to just have a federal system. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:58, October 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * Better, but like Time said our final goal should be a cohesive national healthcare system. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 21:06, October 30, 2013 (UTC)

I disagree about enforcing one standard on everywhere, we've already established states are different, let them focus healthcare resources where they need to but ensure that states make these systems and ensure that states provide assistance to their less well off (whether actually poor or maybe simply unluckily out of spare cash at the thing of an accident) inhabitants when it comes to being able to afford their healthcare. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 23:18, October 30, 2013 (UTC)

My opinion is the same as Kunarians. As for tax deduction, (I don't know if it works the same way in every country) I definitely think that private insurance should be tax deductible because then the government insurance is more like an option than an annoying fee that people receive. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 19:58, October 31, 2013 (UTC)

Tagog
Members of the Congress, we cannot sit idly as a fellow wikination is destroyed without repercussion by Kanto Quito, dictator of Tagog. With its blatant disregard for a free media, the ruthless destruction of any political or civil opposition and repeated assassinations and attemps at such on anyone seen critical of the regime, it is time we do something to bring pressure on that evil man at the helm. We should therefore aim to enact serious economic reprisals against the regime, including a boycott of any Tagogese goods. Furthermore, if we can coordinate a large inter-IWO action we should be able to exert sufficient pressure to bring about change in the country. HORTON11 : •  18:56, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

I would support an (IWO-wide?) embargo. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:08, November 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, hopefully IWO wide. Libertas and Strasland showed support for anti-Tagog action this year and I'm sure Brunant and other perhaps might be inclined to join in. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 19:26, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I would also support such actions also. Hopefully the IWO can take steps to ensure the Tagoese people a happy, democratic and peaceful future Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 19:27, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

Secondly, the government of my new wikination, Prasia, would be willing to support the IWO's efforts to ensure the Tagoese people a happy, democratic and peaceful future, despite the fact that Prasia is not (yet) a member of the IWO Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 19:31, November 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * We should make it clear we are not going to enforce democracy using force like the US, nor will we send the CIA or something to assassinate the leader, but with the unlawful arrests of anyone who is deemed to be against the regime (ooc blocking), state control of any news reaching the country (locking the Vincent Ndengu page so only the government-approved story that he has been killed) and support for armed groups in Lovia and Brunant should be reason engough to ensure our support for democracy in Tagog. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 19:38, November 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * I support this as well, and I'm sure if Polynesia had a real Congress that wasn't just me, it would too. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 00:51, November 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * The Southern Arc Islands would support this as well, though they are not a full IWO member yet. 77topaz (talk) 04:54, November 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * This would have to be approved by the whple of the IWO (as there's no official government for the IWO). If we formed an IWO Congress (like the EU Parliament), this would be much easier which brings me to my next proposal.  Happy65   Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 07:42, November 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well doesn't really need to be approved by it as a whole, though it would be better. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:57, November 4, 2013 (UTC)

Well before we get bogged down in the mire that will be creating the IWO General Amssembly/Parliament/Congress etc, we should pass an initial vote of condemnation and sanction against Tagog. Creating the IWO congress will be a lengthy project and it may even stall, after which this matter on Tagog would be swept under the rug. So, we should actually pass an intial resolution independent of the IWO (until the congress is made) or use the current mechanisms and create a single declaration to be voted on in each full (assoc. too) member state. HORTON11 : •  17:03, November 5, 2013 (UTC)

The Kingdom of Strasland will support thisw motion against Tagog and maybe also Pintona too.MMunson-talk ( Vote SLP    ) 22:56, November 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's good. It seems like much of Burenia is in favor of supporting Tagog (see here). They are already making wild accusations of an IWO invasion of Tagog and are putting their support behind the mass murderer in power, Qanto Kyto. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:03, November 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * On a slightly unrelated note, I was thinking of holding a benefit event with the aim of raising awareness and funds to help bring freedom of speech and freedom of media to Tagog. What is going on in Tagog needs to be put to a stop Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 18:44, November 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * That'd be great. We could invite politicians, celebrities and other well-known people (perhaps even a member of the WWII resistance in Brunant to speak about state oppression). If you want, we could host it here if its going to be a more formal event or at the RUK if it'll take on a more academic angle. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 19:37, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

IWO Congress
I mentioned this on the last post, and it would help matters that need to be discussed among the IWO. I'm guessing it would have 50 seats, and elections would be held. You can run in a maximum of 3 wikinations. Any ideas or comments?  Happy65   Talk CNP   07:45, November 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps not a bad idea. Maybe we can get it more active with this :) --O u WTB 08:19, November 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay thanks, and then WNFA could also possibly then affiliate with the IWO.  Happy65   Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 08:21, November 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Isn't the IWO administrated by each member's congress having a vote? That's the procedure for approving new members, anyway, isn't it? 77topaz (talk) 08:53, November 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * How are we gonna divide the seats? Every country has the same share, by how developped a nation is, or by population? @topaz: yes, currently it is, but it is rather inefficient. --O u WTB 08:54, November 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest by population. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:54, November 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * We'll have IWO parties, so basically like EPP (the People's Party), and members from each wikination can join. We won't need to run in wikinations (changed my plan). Population would be slightly unfair (I could make a nation, 80 pages, then we're in, we could have over 2M and we'd get a majority of seats)  Happy65   Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 15:57, November 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well countries need slightly more than just 80 pages to be an IWO member, and if it was not good enough it would not become a member. But like Oos said, we could just go by development. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:02, November 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Countries need 100 pages to be a full IWO member, though they can be an associate member while having less pages. I agree that development would be a good way to divide the seats, for the reason that Happy mentioned. 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 16:49, November 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * A fairer politicial system would be seperate IWO parties, or parties branching out into the IWO system.  Happy65   Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 16:57, November 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * I would an IWO Congress Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 17:07, November 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * You a word. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:21, November 4, 2013 (UTC)

Anyway, I don't think this is really needed - IWO isn't that active. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:24, November 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * @TM: Well having this would make the IWO more active, and perhaps even encourage better links between wikinations. On a more general note, on which wiki would the debate and voting in such a congress take place? We could either alternate between the wikis of IWO countries, or we could create our own wiki solely for the purpose of the IWO congress Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 22:05, November 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I will say that the IWO isn't all too active, but I think that this isn't a bad idea. What if we went by number of pages to decide the congressional seats? --Quarantine Zone (talk) 23:08, November 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, possibly. Libertas has many pages but not many people are active other than Wabba. This was my plan: Lovia (15), Brunant (10), Libertas (10), Insel (5), Maores (5), Kemburg (5) (this is if Kemburg improves in time).  Happy65   Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 07:30, November 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't forget Prasia! Hopefully it can join the IWO when it is bigger Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 16:54, November 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * @Frijoles: I set it up at iwo.wikia.com.  Happy65   Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 07:34, November 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hm, I'm not sure a separate IWO wiki is a good idea. Look at what happened to the UWN one. :P 77topaz (talk) 08:50, November 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. I am sure we could do this on existing wikis, like Lovia for example. It's the most active wiki and it's also where all IWO-discussions so far (including this one) have been held. The IWO declaration however says that "institutions shall be hosted for equal periods by every full member state, rotating between them in alphabetical order." 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 12:54, November 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * We should rotate among our full IWO members, and we could transfer discussions from wiki to wiki. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:42, November 5, 2013 (UTC)

IWO council
Seems like our proposed IWO congress exists on paper, as the IWO council. This does say that each full member gets two representatives, so I would suggest that newer full members should fill in the positions for their country. HORTON11 : •  17:59, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

Traspes for IWO member
Okay, I think the Traspes wikination is good enough to become an IWO member. here is the link. It has over 125 well-developed pages and has a decent community. HORTON11 : •  19:49, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
I'll be very happy to support this! I'm actually starting to prefer Traspes to my own wikination... Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 20:23, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Move it to second chamber. I don't expect any major objections. --O u WTB 15:28, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

Privatization & Breakup of Ecompany
I believe the nationally owned Ecompany is quite monopolized and nationalized in a sense that's quite unfair to a free market. In this the following actions should go as follows. -Sunkist- (talk) 22:30, January 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) The state owned company, Ecompany, will in a sense of free enterprise have all of its shares sold to independent holders.
 * 2) The Ministry of Energy and Resources will properly and respectively distribute the shares of the company to the most appropriate  candidates for share holding.
 * 3) Such share holders, after the selling of all stock of the company may hold a public forum or private forum on the disbanding of divisions of the company appropriately, to induce some type of competitive capitalism in the energy industry.
 * I agree with this and support this, glad to see you back around. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:15, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

I do not think this is a good idea. Ecompany already has numerous independent partners, such as Taiyō Alternate Energy, and a new energy company has just been created. The government would also not be able to uphold Ecompany's current eco-friendly status if it is privatized. 77topaz (talk) 01:14, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Eco-friendly can be upheld, simply pass a law, we need to do that anyways. Personally I think we should privatise or simply dissolve the assets of Ecompany and close it down, the private energy market is supplying energy to Lovians perfectly fine and Ecompany is now just a burden on the public purse. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:15, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

Its not the duty for the government to install eco-friendly energy, thanks to freedom of choice and living in a western country, THE PEOPLE do that. Ecompany is a monopoly and is a national monopoly at worst. Its slander to capitalism and slander too the free market. ---Sunkist- (talk) 05:44, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

How many of "THE PEOPLE" are owners or even shareholders in private energy companies? And, once again, there are numerous other companies - Ecompany doesn't have a monopoly on its own. 77topaz (talk) 06:36, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * How many of "the people" are shareholders in Ecompany, the government isn't "the people", can the people vote on actions concerning Ecompany's management, no. Ecompany is no better than private companies when concerning "the people". Private companies already exist, Ecompany is stifling investment by being public and is a burden on the public purse. We should dissolve it and give a tax break to "the people". Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:15, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but since Ecompany is government-owned, the people can vote to have their say on things. If Ecompany is privatized, people will have to buy their way into having any say at all. And how would there be a "tax break"? If anything, people would have to pay more tax since the government will no longer get income through Ecompany. 77topaz (talk) 21:15, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Be honest people have a million more important issues to vote on when they get the chance to vote, at the federal election the big issue this year is justice. To be honest people are more concerned about whether the party has a credible economic plan and whether they are socially aligned with their views. Also the tax break wouldn't be equivalent to the money gained by the government, that money would be reinvested in other schemes. Further remember we pay for Ecompany we don't only gain income and further I think that selling it off would give us so much money that we could really invest in trade infrastructure, invest in construction and investing in industries that raise the average wage and I mean big time. These are all things we tax and will gain income from. We shouldn't be afraid of change. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 22:48, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

There is plenty of the people in shareholding, are you not aware that alot of Americans hold stocks? Thats even how they develope a retirement fund? If there are numerous other companies, how is it ethical AT ALL to support one such company against others in the name of the government? This is just sickening. -Sunkist- (talk) 06:52, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, but how many people are prepared to be shareholders, and how many would be informed enough to encourage change if necessary? And even if there are Lovian shareholders, there are still numerous real-life examples where companies have circumvented shareholders' wishes (not to mention the wishes of the general populace). And, the government isn't supporting one company against another - the government owns the company, and most of the profits go directly to the Lovian government. 77topaz (talk) 07:57, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sometimes unpopular things are the right things, businesses happen to do things that benefits their business and rightly so. It is law that stops things from being immoral. Also the Lovian government doesn't fully own Ecompany and 40% of its shares are privately owned, bringing a nice profit to a select group of people, if that isn't the government favouring certain people over others I don't know what is. Those people are ensured money now because the Lovian government refuses to allow competition. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:15, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it probably would be better if the company was 100% owned by the government, but what Sunkist is suggesting is the opposite - all the profits in the sector will go to private groups. 77topaz (talk) 21:12, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's why I suggest a dissolution (which they can do as we own 60%) and a sale of assets, then the government will get a load more money than if we sold the shares and further on top we could pass a law to regulate the energy business. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 22:48, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

The company, in a sense is supported by the government, if it goes under in a financial situation ,the government will be there as a net, which is unfair to companies where they must worry about such a situation. This all effects prices, competitiveness and in all sense destroys the idea of competitiveness. ---Sunkist- (talk) 10:08, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

I'm against this for ecological standards and putting people before profit. Ecompany gives great green enegry to all of lovia, and allows for smaller private companies to fill in the gaps (so there is no legal monopoly). I think the arugment that "ecompony isn't democratic" is pretty weak. We elect people who appoint people to head Ecompony, I mean thats as close to democracy as your gonna get and if those people do a terrible job those politicans get voted out and laws/people change accordingly. I'd like to hear more from the CCPL and UL. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:34, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * If you are for putting people before profit then why are 40% of the companies owners private and profiting from the practical monopoly of Ecompany. And if you are for ecological standards then we can pass a law maintaining ecological standards.


 * On your point concerning democratic, no-one has made that argument, so don't create strawmen. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 22:48, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

"How many of "the people" are shareholders in Ecompany, the government isn't "the people", can the people vote on actions concerning Ecompany's management, no. Ecompany is no better than private companies when concerning "the people"." It implies that both private companies and public companies are equal in democratic nature, which is just untrue. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:44, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

I would like to suggest that if Congress cannot agree to dissolve or privatise Ecompany then we "democratically" elect a new board to oversea the company and bring in a CEO to work more innovatively and to help bring in new innovative companies. Ecompany has gone into a dark black pit from its haydays and now something needs to give, we either need to change by taking it out of the equation and allowing innovation to come from the private sector, or by changing the clearly stagnant and complacent leadership that holds the throne at the moment. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 22:48, January 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Seems like a nice solution, I really want Ecompany to be public but maybe an appointed and controlled board from congress would be a good idea. Kunarian's solution seems like a good fix... Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:03, January 8, 2014 (UTC)

I guess that would be reasonable (the new solution), but, related to that: someone should actually create text for a new Green Energy Act, instead of just proposing to remove the old one. Without a functioning GEA, we would have no guarantee at all that Ecompany's ecological standards would be upheld should it be sold, or even brought under new management. 77topaz (talk) 22:56, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

I voted for the repeal of the EPA its piffle at best... Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:44, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, but we should have a replacement act first before we repeal it, otherwise we will be left with no legislation on the subject at all. 77topaz (talk) 01:43, January 8, 2014 (UTC)

My take
Ecompany needs to be reformed. It should not be as extreme as completely disbanding the company and selling off assets as if we were some postcommunist state, but there are many companies under the Ecompany umbrella that must be fixed, reformed and perhaps even privatized, given that those are sectors in which the state does not traditionally manage.


 * Ecompany itself is fine and it would be ok to keep it under government control
 * Swift Oil is extremely unrealistic as the page does say that it " is active in more than 180 countries" and is "one of the world's six supermajor oil companies". This should be deflated down to a more moderate size and should be privatized
 * Adamas should be sold off, as the government has better things to do than run a steel manufacturer.
 * Aventis: unless it reformed as our central bank then I would not have much opposition in privatizing it
 * HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:56, January 8, 2014 (UTC)

The page does say that Aventis "acts as the central bank" of Lovia. 77topaz (talk) 19:57, January 8, 2014 (UTC)

But it ain't our central bank. And that was back when Aventis was the only bank in Lovia (and anyone can put that their bank acts as the central bank). Now Lovia's banknotes all state the "Bank of Lovia" as the issuer so we should be using that as the name of our central bank. HORTON11 : •  20:27, January 8, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed on your points on Swift Oil and Adamas, concerning Ecompany would you support my suggestion of changing leadership and taking it out of stagnation? On Aventis I think that we should have a debate seperate from this one on what to do with it. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 21:11, January 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I really wouldn't mind. It would be fine just leaving it's ownership as is but management can be replaced. Aventis is under the control of Ecompany, so I don't see why we should separate it from this discussion. Now if we are to discuss a central bank that's a different issues. But my solution for Aventis would be to rework and privatize. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:51, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

@Horton: Perhaps, but there doesn't exist a Bank of Lovia as such - the page is even a red link, currently. 77topaz (talk) 22:06, January 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * That's why we should propose an act for the creation of the Bank of Lovia. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:51, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

Truth Islanders' citizenship
The government of Lovia does not recognize the separation of Truth Island from Lovia, but given that it is become a de-facto autonomour territory, we must find a way to work with the present state.

We should probably work on an amendment to the citizenship law in regards to Truth Islanders. I would personally support allowing them to keep Lovian citizenship, though I am still unsure as to whether newly-born Truth Islanders should have it. HORTON11 : •  12:15, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

I think we should continue to dispute their separation, and as such, allow them to maintain their citizenship. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:49, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Official holidays
There are no official holidays in Lovia, nor is there a national day. I propose we officially designate the following:


 * New Years Day, 1 January
 * A King's Day or Monarchy Day, February or March
 * Easter Friday, as in the US
 * Easter Monday
 * National holiday commemorating Lovia's discovery or settlement, in June or July
 * Thanksgiving, in November
 * Christmas Eve
 * Christmas Day
 * New Years Eve

HORTON11 : •  16:30, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea, and I support these days being made holidays! But why Thanksgiving? I think its a good idea to have a festival a bit like this, but why the American one? Frijoles333 TALK 16:35, April 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * This has been discussed before, but Thanksgiving is held throughout North America and it's a nice time for friends and family to get together. My family does that over here, and they've lived outside the US for most of the past 30 years. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:10, April 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay then, considering Lovia's cultural and historical links with the US it is probably a good idea. And a great excuse for turkey! Also, we could consider making Easter Monday a holiday too. Frijoles333 TALK 17:17, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that too. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:20, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

035. Mobilise A Lovian Force
I propose that we mobilise a force of Lovians to take back Truth Island from Brunant - who have wrongly seemingly asserted control over the island since I left - and to restore order to Clymene - which has become a place of chaos and disorder. Of course the proposed plan will be in action soon in the form of a movement of the Federal Police, who are tasked with upholding the law in Lovia. I just wonder whether Congress would approve a more significant move to show Brunant they cannot attack Lovia's sovereignty and to show the rebels that despite a change from conservative to socialist in government, this one shall maintain stability as well as the last. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 20:09, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

At the moment there is no need to use armed force against Truth Island. A condominium-type arrangement is being implemented, allowing for local autonomy. That said, we must take action against the violent Marxist coup in Clymene. HORTON11 : •  21:06, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

I agree. No military action is needed against Truth Island, but the violence in Clymene must be stopped immediately Frijoles333 TALK 21:08, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Truth Island must be fully re-integrated into Lovia, Brunant cannot be allowed to affront Lovian sovereignty. Autonomy for Truth Island can be worked out but Brunant need not be involved. I am glad we are agreed on Clymene proper, I suggest that each of the stable states vows to raise a force equal to 1% of their population. These would then be commanded by the Federal Police who would act as the backbone of the Lovian force.

That would mean:
 * Kings - 500
 * Oceana - 400
 * Seven - 250
 * Sylvania - 750

Currently Sylvania is debating raising another independent force to restore order to all of Lovia. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 21:12, April 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * There is no need for a separate Sylvanian force, nor such a large amount of people in the raised forces. There are only a couple hundred armed rebels in Clymene and none in Truth Island. With regards to TI, a situation where both Lovia and Brunant are invested in improving the territory does make good sense. Brunant would not have control over the island, instead both they and Lovia would be responsible for its defense and foreign relations. Locals would manage their own affairs. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 21:20, April 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * It would seem that Lovia and Sylvania are at a divide. Not only have you disrespected democracy and failed to pass any sort of agreement through this Congress, you have also acted in such a way as to damage the prestige of Lovia. Brunant has no right to be involved, Truth Island is not Brunanter nor will it ever be. Sylvania will have to lead the way where you cannot. I emplore the Governors of the States of Lovia to sign the declaration in the pub and secede from the Abrahams Government to re-establish order in Lovia. Not only has Abrahams violated the Constitution, he has violated the democracy of Lovia. We ask that the Abrahams Government bar those who sign or support the declaration vacate the State of Sylvania before the end of the month or face arrest as Traitors Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 21:27, April 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * I have to disagree. It is unacceptable that you call for politicians who do not sign your agreement to be arrested as traitors. It has no grounding in federal law. Also, I feel that this declaration should be discussed first so that all the states can fight for a United Lovia on their own terms, not just the terms of the Sylvanian government. Also, I resent your statement calling Abrahams and his government "disrespectful' and comparing them to traitors. Horton himself proposed a joint rule proposal and has fought to ensure that Lovian interests are represented in Truth Island, and that the federal government controls foreign affairs and defence. You seem to be missing the distinction between Justin Abrahams (who actually opposed the secession) and Horton acting out of character Frijoles333 TALK 21:39, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Declaration allows for states to do things on their own terms. And you claiming he has "fought to ensure that Lovian interests are represented in Truth Island" is wrong. If he did Brunant would have no part in it. You do not have to fight a state that has no power to do anything but shout from halfway across the world. And agreeing to any amount of the "joint-sovereignty" is against the constitution in full. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 21:46, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * What is against the constitution in full is your attempts to topple an elected government because they won't comply with some agreement you've written Frijoles333 TALK 21:50, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * I am not toppling the government, I am moving it out of Sylvania. And a government that has violated the constitution that they were elected to uphold can hardly call itself a government at all. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 21:53, April 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Disrespected democracy how? TI's autonomous status has not yet been implemented and must be discussed via congress. Do not come to conclusions so fast. Both I and the King have made our stances clear (see the pub) and will stand by Lovia in regards to Truth Island though welcome a diplomatic alternative that would be better off for the local populace. I have not violated the constitution in any way as I have not sanctioned anything extrajudicially nor have I violated the democracy of Lovia. Now you threatening to take control of the government and arrest its democratically and lawfully elected members is against the constitution and laws of Lovia. I as Prime Minister and the government will defend the sovereignty and integrity of Lovia and will not stand by any undemocratic threat to its existence. Lastly, I have to go to sleep. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 21:43, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * You have destroyed the sovereignty and integrity of Lovia alone by allowing a full scale rebellion occur in Clymene and by allowing a state, that shouldn't even have a concern in this part of the world, to take over one of our islands. And I am not taking control of the government, simply forcefully moving it out of Sylvania, that is not against the constitution and neither is arresting those people who are attempting to violate the constitution. And if you loved the constitution so much you would not be attempting to violate the sovereignty of Lovia. I am attempting to rid the nation of those who would violate the constitution and ensure that the constitution can be reimplemented, starting with the re-assertion of Sovereignty over Clymene and Truth Island. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 21:52, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Correct me if I've misunderstood, but it seems as if you are going to arrest anyone who doesn't sign your contract in the Pub? And Horton didn't allow the revolution in Clymene to take place, Marcus did it of his own accord. Furthermore, the government is continuing to press Brunant for joint rule in Truth Island, so is certainly not "destroying the integrity of Lovia" as you describe it. Frijoles333 TALK 22:01, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, I am arresting members of the government who continue to act in a manner where they actively seek to violate the constitution. Also there is no joint rule. There is only Lovian. Joint sovereignty is a violation of the constitution. You condemn yourself with your own words. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 22:20, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * And are you going to give them a fair trial after the arrest? If you're telling us to abide the Constitution, then abide by it yourself. Also, exactly how do I "condemn myself with my own words". I wholeheartedly agree that the situation in Clymene must be stopped, but is this really the way to do it? Frijoles333 TALK 22:24, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

036. Prasia joining IWO
Seeing as the situation in Clymene has (at least for now) settled down, I'd like to re-propose this...

If this motion passes the Second Chamber, Prasia will become a full member of the IWO.

Prasia now has almost 150 pages, and I feel that joining the IWO would help forge better relations between Prasia and other wikinations (IC), and be a good incentive for me to continue working on the wiki (OOC). And here's a link Frijoles333 TALK 17:22, April 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * Does anyone have any objections to this? Cause I'd like to move it up to the Second Chamber soon Frijoles333 TALK 16:15, May 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not really, no. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:23, May 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll move it to the Second Chamber then, so everyone can vote on it Frijoles333 TALK 17:51, May 3, 2014 (UTC)

037. Overrule decision of the Sylvanian Governor
In accordance with Article 5.3 of the Constitution, I hereby propose that we overrule the decision of the Governor of Sylvania to raise a Sylvanian militia to crush the uprising in Clymene. In times of crisis such as this, we demand unity across the whole country to uphold the justice and democracy that our nation represents. As well as this, the actions of Governor Hoffmann border on the illegal and extrajudicial.

If this vote passes the Second Chamber, the bill in the Sylvania State Council will be declared void.

In addition, as per Article 5.3 of the Constitution, the Governor may not proceed with this legislation from this moment until a decision regarding it has been made by Congress. Frijoles333 TALK 19:02, May 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * (This is another CNP member non Hoffmann speaking) Continue these attempts to re-enter Sylvania and you will face conflict. Firstly this will never pass, there are not enough Congressmen and this government isn't even recognised in Sylvania now. So your attempts to say that the legislation cannot go forwards are meaningless. I hope you realise that this foolish attempt to subdue one of the few states that is trying to keep the peace only inflames the situation. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 08:08, May 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * The rule of law and of democracy must be observed at all levels of Lovian government. Any attempts at forcefully removing the government from their offices are illegal and any state or officials going against federal law and constitution are not acting in the best interest of Lovia and Lovians. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 12:51, May 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * You broke the law. Don't tell others to obey something you happily violated to boost the prestige of your foreign interests. Also you've been removed. End of. It's not illegal to remove you, you've been moved to Kings and can govern from there. I could have just said you were seized and detained but I didn't I simply moved you. So don't argue semantics over whether or not you've been moved, because you have. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:03, May 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I never violated the law. Justin Abrahans stood and still stands by the integrity of Lovia, which is something you are attempting to destroy. That is clearly in violation of the constitution and the laws of this nation and will not be tolerated. Now the government cannot be expelled from the halls of democracy in Noble City and I will stand by congress and the people's elected government. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:25, May 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Right then, you have all been arrested. And you did, you tried to sell off Truth Island to Brunant. Which proves you do clearly not stand by the integrity of Lovia. Again, please point out what part of the constitution I have violated by attempting to remove you from Noble City. Although it doesn't really matter now, because you're all under arrest and being detained. I shall write the news story now. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 19:32, May 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * So much hypocrisy! So you've arrested MOTCs for being in Sylvania, even though you said only hours ago that the Congress has moved to Kings? That sounds like good logic. Seeing as you moved the Congress to Kings, you can't arrest me, because your illegal milita can't get me there. You need to stop imposing your ideas on how to solve this crisis on us, when no proper vote has been had on how to handle the situation, we've just had the Governor of Sylvania overreact and blow the situation out of control! And how many times do I have to tell you, me and Horton were not acting as our respective MOTCs when the secession of Truth Island happened. And just one more correction, Truth Island was never sold off! There was a) no money involved and b) the islanders seceded of their own accord. In summary, when there could have been unity across the country to solve the crisis, you just overreacted. You've given a bad name to the Government of Sylvania, and I hope you're proud. Oh, and also, for the record, I'm not arrested Frijoles333 TALK 19:41, May 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * First of all, it's been an entire day since the official attempt to move you to Kings. Horton clearly rebuked this, so clearly you haven't moved to Kings and therefore have been arrested. Therefore I can arrest you, and you have Horton to thank.


 * Secondly, I'm not imposing my ideas. That would imply you were part of them. I am acting independently of you because you have acted in a way that tried to break off part of Lovia and sell it off to Brunant.


 * Thirdly, all those insults do not help you and will not save you when we begin trials for treason. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 19:48, May 3, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and just to correct your little analogy on this page, it's actually Hoffmann that's "the rot on the apple of Lovian unity" Frijoles333 TALK 19:44, May 3, 2014 (UTC)

2014.5 Congress
Alright, so it looks like this Congress is gonna be made up of the following MOTCs: If we want to maintain the general list of people in the old Government, we would have approxiamately this: As we can see, we have two openings (Minister of Finance and Minister of Energy/Resources). There has been talk of me assuming the position of Minister of Finance, which I would readily accept.
 * Oos Wes Ilava (CCPL)
 * Charles Jones (CNP)
 * Lukas Hoffmann (CNP)
 * Alexei Krasnov (CNP)
 * Justin Abrahams (UL)
 * Marcel Cebara (UL)
 * Nicholas Sheraldin (GP)
 * Rakham Tarik Al-Asmari (GP)
 * Dirk Brandt (Independent)
 * Aina Sarria (Independent)
 * George Wrexley (Independent)
 * Jason Rogers (Lovian Unionist Syndicate)
 * Prime Minister: Justin Abrahams
 * Ministry of Agriculture: Rakham Tarik Al-Asmari
 * Ministry of Commerce: Lukas Hoffmann
 * Ministry of Culture: Oos Wes Ilava
 * Ministry of Defense: Lukas Hoffmann
 * Ministry of Education: Marcel Cebara
 * Ministry of Energy and Resources: Wrexley
 * Ministry of Environment: Nicholas Sheraldin
 * Ministry of Family, Youth, and Elderly: Oos Wes Ilava
 * Ministry of Finance: Brandt
 * Ministry of Foreign Affairs: Nicholas Sheraldin
 * Ministry of Health: Justin Abrahams
 * Ministry of Justice: Charles Jones
 * Ministry of Labour: Rogers
 * Ministry of Tourism and Sport: Sarria
 * Ministry of Transportation: Alexei Krasnov
 * Speaker of the Congress: Nicholas Sheraldin

Additionally, we have three other new MOTCs w/o Ministries to fill. I would like to see ministers of the same party relinquish their ministry to these new MOTCs along general ideological lines.

I think it is safe to say that I would caucus with the CNP, while Wrexley and Rogers would caucus with the UL and Sarria with the GP.

Therefore, according to my thought, Sarria would take on a position held by Sheraldin (as he holds two), and Wrexley/Rogers would take on roles held by Cebara or Abrahams.

I would also like to ask a few constitutional questions: Anyhow, thanks for reading this huge chunk of text. We can kinda work it out as things get going, but I think all of this needs to be addressed. 05:53, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) According to the Constitution, the elections should've lasted three weeks. That should be changed for two reasons: it a) buys us some time (so it doesn't look like are inactive) and b) allows us to be constitutional. (That would have Elections end July 21)
 * 2) According to the Constitution, there is not a date for innauguration of a Special Congress, but I think it would be 11 days after the last day of elections. That would put it at August 1, which is about modern day.
 * 3) We should have a new coalition formed, according to Article 8, section 2.2, which consists of 50% of the MOTCs.
 * 4) To me, it would look like a CNP-CCPL-Brandt coalition and a UL-GP-LSU-Sarria-Wrexley coalition, making the UL-GP coalition the main one in the nation with 58.667% of the MOTCs.
 * 5) Since we had special elections as per Article 8 section 1.4, is this the start of a new Congress (ie Second Congress of 2014 or the like) or is it a continuation of the 2014 Congress?
 * 6) If it is a new Congress, we should elect a new PM. In fact, I think we should do this anyways. Just read Article 8, 2.1 to 2.3 to see what I mean.

Please note: All of this is not spoken from the Perspective of Brandt, but from my personal opinion ((Also, we really broke a decent number of laws by chosing to go with just us and not the full Congress of 100 people. I understand our elections didn't take place as they normally would have, but I think that we can do a small set of elections as per normal in order to get to the 100 number. The laws we broke are:


 * Constitution, Article 8, 1.1

So, I really think we need to do the voting thing.)) 06:04, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Constitution, Article 8, 3.2
 * Public Law, Article 5 section 1

Great to see the new Congress getting underway! Regarding Cabinet roles, I would like to continue my role as Minister for Education, as I've got some new ideas for Lovia's education system that I would like to implement. Also, I think we should definitely involve some new users/characters in the Cabinet. I'd be happy to give my role as Minister of Labour to a new user, possibly Rogers or Sarria. Frijoles333 TALK 08:04, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

How about my above proposal. Traspes was interested in sport so we could give her that, Labour gan go to Crystal, he'll like that, Brandt gets Finance as he wanted and Wrexley can have energy, which is the other open ministry. Plus we could also hold special elections for the speaker if there are more people interested in that position. HORTON11 : •  15:10, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

What about the need to bring the count up to 100 members? Are we just going to each have 8.3 votes/people? I think that is a bit confusing, so we would need some people to have 9 characters and some only have 8. Thanks, 19:46, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

This is not a formar full congress so we do not need 100 members. HORTON11 : •  20:07, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

Everybody will get just one vote in the Second Chamber, with a total of 12 votes to be cast. --O u WTB 09:03, August 5, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, that makes sense. HORTON11 : •  14:55, August 5, 2014 (UTC)

May I say I support this proposal for allocating ministerial positions with one exception, I would prefer a different prime minister. Nothing personal but I feel we need someone who is better at handling tough situations like we found ourselves in recently, and especially someone who can really drive a government. I would advocate Oos as first choice however if he would not I would either prefer to converse with others or put myself up to the role. Despite my recent absence I am now finding time to return and be a regular contributor. And I would hope no one can doubt that I have not driven this wiki forwards, not alone of course, but as part of the many great contributors who have made this wiki the delight it is. I would stand by a program of reinvigorating the wiki once more with the likes of reximus as well as older members and pushing the wiki in an active direction, encouraging participation. Of course, only if Oos would not take the position. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 16:01, August 10, 2014 (UTC)

Operation: Clean Slate
Considering that finally we might actually have an active congress, could we please begin by laying out our plans for the coming term. I believe first things first should be to mop up the mess of this stupid invasion and pass laws to stop all the madness from happening all over again. Further we should move to reform the political system in Lovia so that it rewards interaction and contribution.

I believe that we, acting in the best interests of Lovia (the wikia and the nation) can make it so that we once again debate policy and issues of society, governance and business rather than issues of war, rebellion and riots.

Below is a more detailed plan that I will alter as time goes on and more contributions are added. This step by step plan will be a combination of executive actions on various levels as well as legislative actions. I'll cross things off the list as we go on and complete actions. After the repairs and reforms are done, I believe we can move forwards and look to our own party political policies.

I'd also like to just say that I would again like to say that I would support the above government proposal if I or Oos was Prime Minister. I feel that I would be the better choice, simply to drive the repair and re-establishment of this wikia and nation but would feel comfortable under Oos if people would prefer.

All I can say is that despite a lot of talk, little has happened. I feel I can make things happen and if not then you can boot me out. Either way, I feel we need to make a decision and actually start actioning things. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 18:12, August 10, 2014 (UTC)

OPERATION: CLEAN SLATE

the groups responsible for each action are in brackets


 * 1) Establish government.
 * 2) Debate in First Chamber. (CONGRESS)
 * 3) Proposal and vote in Second Chamber. (CONGRESS)
 * 4) Mop up of issues.
 * 5) Blackout across Oceana is lifted. (MINISTER OF ENERGY AND RESOURCES)
 * 6) All dissenting or uncooperative government institutions and politicians as well as other groups to accept the current Lovian government and its direction under pain of arrest in return for pardons. Including the revocation of any executive or legislative action as well as demobilisation or disbandment of groups formed during the crisis that could cause potential future issues. Reasserting of control by the Federal Government over unmanned institutions. (CONGRESS/OTHER GROUPS)
 * 7) *State of Sylvania
 * 8) *State of Clymene
 * 9) *Sofasi Citizen Union
 * 10) *Southern Cross Alliance
 * 11) *Lovian Land Army
 * 12) *Federal Police
 * 13) *Sylvanian Militia
 * 14) *Lovian National Army
 * 15) *UNLOR forces
 * 16) Assisted relocation of people fleeing violence (particularly Clymeni political dissidents and Oceana refugees) back to their homes. Assisted relocation of those recruited into fighting forces (particularly the conscripts of the Lovian National Army) back to their homes. (STATE GOVERNMENTS/GOVERNORS)
 * 17) Amnesty for collection of weapons. All weapons without license are to be handed over to the Lovian Government, people suspected of hoarding dangerous caches of weapons are liable for arrest and trial. (MINISTER OF DEFENCE and MINISTER OF JUSTICE)
 * 18) Issue of arrest notices for members and associates of destabilising factions and militias. Investigation into finding possible criminals. (MINISTER OF DEFENCE and MINISTER OF JUSTICE)
 * 19) *Communist Revolutionary Union
 * 20) Dispatch of emergency aid to all damaged communities by State Governments. Ministry of Finance to assist in funding aid. (STATE GOVERNMENTS/GOVERNORS/MINISTER OF FINANCE)
 * 21) *Clymene
 * 22) **Cornwall
 * 23) **Plains
 * 24) **Rosendorp
 * 25) **Sofasi
 * 26) **Xiandu
 * 27) *Oceana
 * 28) **Boynitz
 * 29) **Coldhill
 * 30) **Dubnitz
 * 31) **East Hills
 * 32) **Heighnow
 * 33) **Hurbanova
 * 34) **Magna Augusta
 * 35) **Newmouth
 * 36) **Westwall
 * 37) **Tshadsa
 * 38) Other supportive Ministerial and Governor Actions
 * 39) Damaged community funding. Create state funds for repairs, building projects and enterprises in damaged communities to help rebuild. Ministry of Finance to help support funding. (STATE GOVERNMENTS/GOVERNORS/MINISTER OF FINANCE)
 * 40) Legislate for a more stable Lovia
 * 41) Completely reform the outdated acts in the Criminal Law Book to allow for better control of firearms, more political independence of the FP and a separate act to control the formation of militia as well as define the difference between a militia and a security company allowing private enterprise to act in favour of stability.
 * 42) *Federal Police Act - Make the federal police independent of the Ministry of Defence and Congress, rather make its actions controlled by this legislation and give congress nominal control over its funding but allow it to manage itself. This will stop the Federal Police being used for political manoeuvres and will add another interactive aspect of Lovia. I will write the Act for everyone to put under scrutiny. (LUKAS HOFFMANN/CONGRESS)
 * 43) *Firearms Act - Make the act an actual regulation of firearms, not a free for all for hunters. This will simply tighten up security in Lovia and make weaponising of society near impossible. I plan to also regulate the manufacture of firearms which currently is not regulated, which is really, quite bad. Also make the militia bit into a separate act. (LUKAS HOFFMANN/CONGRESS)
 * 44) *Militia Act - This act will govern militias, defining exactly what they are and not allowing for loopholes. This will once and for all deal with our longest standing issue to stability by completely supporting prosecution and providing a framework to deal with suspected militia. (LUKAS HOFFMANN/CONGRESS)
 * 45) *Security Company Control Act - This act will regulate security companies and make them a viable tool for anyone to use to protect their businesses, property and communities as well be a way for us to control the desire for people to have militias and a way to control and raise funds from security companies. This act will also contain a part denoting that these companies will be required to be vetted and receive training and cooperate with the Federal Police (such as a legal requirement to report any suspected unlawful act), so as to weed out extremists and also make the security companies a tool for having more eyes on the streets so to speak. This act will contain a tax (whether it is on profit or a poll tax on the amount of employed security guards, my preference, is up to debate) on security companies to discourage people making personal armies. (LUKAS HOFFMANN/CONGRESS)
 * 46) *National Levy Act - This act will allow for the establishment of a temporary Lovian Emergency Force in times of crisis (this could be a peacekeeping force/humanitarian force/military force) and will establish the structures under which such a force would be created and operate eliminating personal armies once and for all. (LUKAS HOFFMANN/CONGRESS)
 * 47) Pass reforms to create a more inclusive Lovia
 * 48) *Congress Reform Act - This act will separate IC elections from OOC, the IC elections will be very similar to the current form but will formalise elections properly and add in some basic rules and guidelines as well as making it a proper party list. The OOC elections will not be elections so to speak but will be a simple assignment of a seat to active users every six months, further each OOC member of congress will control an equal share of the IC congress so that we still have players controlling characters. (LUKAS HOFFMANN/CONGRESS)
 * 49) *Constitutional Reform Act - This act will reform the method of voting in Congress, having the first chamber hold proposals (like the moment) but requiring a certain amount of time along with a seconder for each proposal before it passes to the second chamber. In the second chamber there will be a generous voting window in which members of congress may vote, only pro and con votes will count, abstains are abstains and therefore not counted like in every other legislature in the world. At the end of the voting window, voting will close and votes cannot be changed. Should it be refused or time out, the act must then wait a period of time before it can be proposed again. Should it be passed then the proposal will be enshrined in law.
 * 50) Collecting funds for actions performed

Discussion
Almost done. Will write down list of legislation required. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 18:12, August 10, 2014 (UTC)

Also I can't stress how much we need to reform. The last time this happened, my calls to reform were only partly heard and now we find ourselves back at square two (not square one, we have moved on, just not enough). Also some planned acts have been added. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 18:45, August 10, 2014 (UTC)

Most of this seems good. All active militas and armed groups active during the war should be disbanded as should the Lovian National Army. IF we do want a permanent armed force to deter future invasion we'll need something much better organized and of course congressional approval. HORTON11 : •  19:25, August 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Glad we're on agreement on the first issue. And I would support disbandment of the militias/armed groups including the LLA. On a permanent armed force, if we did go there, I would politically separate them from Congress in a similar manner to the police, so they are reasonably independent and cannot be used as a political weapon except are given general orders by Congress which their leadership then carry out. I think the key thing about most of the planned reforms above is separation of military and political powers. I mean it's too easy for people to just form a militia, call them hunters and arm them which is incredibly destabilising for Lovia. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 22:15, August 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Personally I'm not too keen on a permanent military, but given our propensity for armed conflict it's something we do need. Of course a permanent military would not be a body under congress, as most militaries are not. But, I would not want to have one military figure wielding control of the armed forces, as was seen with Bennett. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 20:34, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would agree on all cases. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 22:06, August 11, 2014 (UTC)

I'm interested in seeing how this will develop. However, as time is limited to me, I would prefer not to take on the post of PM. --O u WTB 09:46, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Understood, I'll present myself as an alternative then. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 22:06, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I am opposed to you being PM in an OOC manner. Your party, my party, and the CCPL, who are all the "Rightists" are outnumbered by the "Leftist" group of GP/LUS/RI/UL. Therefore, a politician from their side of the aisle should be chosen. Furthemore, I would like to stress that this Government is violating the Rules of the Wiki, which state that we must follow the Constitution. We are not doing so, in direct violation of the Site Regulations. 08:13, August 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * CCPL is not rightist. It's views on the economical side are more leftist than rightist. Also, our government is leftist, so we need a rightist PM is a fallacy. We need the most competent, motivated, and experienced user as PM, as it currently stands that would be either Kunarian or me. --O u WTB 09:19, August 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Rex: First of all in Lovia while we occasionally fall into arguments over left or right, we are not bound to these limits. This isn't america where we're all red or blue, we are a forwards thinking democracy and our parties co-operate often in various areas. Also I think you'll find that there are areas where UL and the CNP agree where the CCPL don't or where RI and CCPL clash and you and the RI don't. We've also long had Oos as Prime Minister as a grand coalition and before that we had Villanova, none of these times were the Prime Ministers leaders of one massive "leftist" block, in fact the three last Governments where largely pushed through by a grand coalition of the CCPL, CNP, GP and UL/Labour in cooperation with other parties.


 * I'm really sorry but I completely disagree with you OOC and IC because its a completely limiting and negative viewpoint and suggests we don't work together. The last time we had that viewpoint, the government was composed of almost one party entirely while others were left to rot on the side.


 * And three last things: 1. To be honest we don't do OOC and IC like that here, we roleplay but we don't say "Oh you can't do that because I don't think your character would" and limit people. 2. From an OOC and IC perspective I am proposing this government, OOC because I have the drive and willpower and have written a lot of legislation for this website and so therefore the skills and IC because the CNP are the largest party and want to work with the rest of the Lovian parties to really drive Lovia back into repair. 3. Honestly, I have the reforms (all of which will be scrutinised and non-partisan), I have the energy and skill to make the legislation needed and to fix up Lovia, but to get them through it would be nice to be in the driving seat for this and that's all I'm asking and if I do a good job hopefully I'll be kept on and if not then I'll accept a replacement in January (which is only 3 and a bit months away anyways). Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:09, August 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Oos: Thanks for your support. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:11, August 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks for the clarification, Kun. I was just thinking of this like the OTL  (Althist mentality FTW!) regular UK, the only other nation whose politics  I follow that is organized something similar to Lovia. I have no issues with you being PM, I just thought it would be implausible. That's all. Move the cabinet proposals to Second Chamber, or not yet? 06:03, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

Added more. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 20:35, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * further each OOC member of congress will control an equal share of the IC congress so that we still have players controlling characters. That's a bit vague. Could you explain what you mean by that? --O u WTB 09:06, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because each OOC MotC will have an equal representation in congress, my logic would be to divide up the IC characters who are MotCs between the OOC MotCs so that if you, I and Horton were the only members of the Congress for instance the IC congress would be divided as such:
 * Kunarian - 33 MotC
 * Oos - 33 MotC
 * Horton - 33 MotC
 * Non-aligned - 1 MotC (this would be the one IC MotC that never votes or participates)
 * However this would not mean 33 CNP, 33 CCPL and 33 UL. IC elections and division of congress into parties happens before we actually assign IC MotC to OOC MotCs. Basically the whole system would be the same (but slightly simpler for IC voting) except we would divide up the congress between active participators every 6 months. I hope I've explained it well. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:05, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

I'm assuming that better wording and more detailed legislation will be added for the above proposed acts, esp. toward the Security Company Control Act, as I don't want to see security companies becoming a proxy for or taking the place of militias. HORTON11 : •  14:29, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

The figures behind the plan
Cost should not limit our efforts for the reconstruction, but it is something we need to consider. Firstly we need to determine an estimated cost for every point in the proposal above (plus any alternatives or added points) and then we need to determine sources of funding, such as taxation, foreign aid (ex. USAID, IDEA and other wikination aid), donations and private fundraising, wartime confiscations and others and perhaps determine how much each source wold realistically contribute. HORTON11 : •  15:59, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

001. Damage Assessment
I think there is some need to assess the damage from the invasion. We need to look at the invasion from (at least) the following perspectives: Then, we need to assess any potentialities for a court case (ICJ, mayhaps) or at least how much we managed to confiscate.
 * Cost of human life/casualties of civilians
 * Damage to housing
 * Damage to industry
 * Damage to agriculture
 * Damage to public infrastructure
 * Schools
 * Transportation
 * etc.

Then comes the distribution/reparations of what was lost. I think that we have a couple of options on how we can do this: The best way to do any sort of fund transering would be via the Ministry of Finance, which would be happy to coordinate surveying of damage with any other applicable Ministries who wish to survey their respective fields.
 * 1) All funds that were confiscated will be split evenly amongst all adult citizens of Lovia, regardless of if their property was damaged.
 * 2) All funds that were confiscated will be sent to all adult citizens of Lovia that can prove that their property was damaged. The funds can be split either:
 * 3) According to cost of damage, or
 * 4) According to cost of damage in relation to net worth, or
 * 5) Evenly amongst all claimants
 * 6) Pay first for all medical injuries and a set amount of money for any deaths to the survivors of the deceased (both civilian and FP)
 * 7) Addditionally, perhaps give veterans benefits
 * 8) Put a 6 month (or similar length) freeze on all taxes in Lovia. This will make it profitable for companies to make big investments.

My personal suggestion is to first do #3 (pay all bills of wounded/dead), then #2.2 (give funds proportionate to damage in relation to net worth), and additionally enact #4.

If we look at the Public Law Art. 13.1, section 1.3, it states that Congress may not change the budget after April 1, but I think that we can gain a majority of people here who are willing to vote yes on overruling that provision in order to cut taxes and increase tariffs to attempt to maintain as much of a balanced budget as possible.

Now, you may ask "Doesn't raising tariffs increase prices for consumers?" and that answer is generally correct, but it also is protectionistic. As much as I hate government intervention, moderately high tariffs can do us well in a time like this. Additionally, we can keep low tariffs with allies who helped us vs Burenia (ie Brunant, Traspes, Prasia).

00:11, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
My fellow MOTCs, please react to this. As we sit around waiting, there are many internal refugees and people who lost everything due to the Burenian invasion. We cannot wait any longer. 06:25, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

Any thoughts, please? 23:21, August 21, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I like this idea. But give money only to the people that were affected I think. Traspes (talk) 01:15, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Traspes. Lovia was not the aggressor in this war, therefore they are not responsible. If anyone should pay, it's Burenia. Also, a six month tax freeze would indeed enable companies to make more investments, but it would also cripple our government's funds for reconstruction and medical treatment. --O u WTB 09:36, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

Whatever we confiscate from the Bruenians may not likely be much. A few military vehicles and equipment would be the bulk of that. Like Traspes and Oos we should really be supporting those affected by the fighting, ie. injured, dead family member, lost home etc. Your ideas 2 and 3 are good but we'd most definately need to keep taxes in order to fund our support. One thing you looked over which would also be of help if foreign aid. I'm sure Cettatie and other wikiantions could donate money to Lovia and the UN, World Bank or others could contribute some financial aid. Brunant's IDEA would be able to give especially development aid, in reconstructing schools and community buildings, bringing people from abroad as volunteers and helping set up programs to assist the needy, and I think Traspes or some other nation has a similar development agency that could help. HORTON11 : •  13:12, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

Mäöres will probably also be willing to help Lovia, as a large number of people in the affected areas (especially Oceana) is from Limburgish/Mäöreser decent. --O u WTB 14:18, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that would be good. I was also thinking, perhaps an "IWO for Lovia" CD with different wikination musicians in which the profits could go towards helping Lovia. HORTON11 : •  14:38, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

This plan is incredibly unrealistic and a very blanket approach to what should be a carefully managed local issue. Only a few places (mainly in Oceana and Clymene) were actually damaged and even then only Plains came under serious property damaging fire. Agriculture, industry and public infrastructure is by and large unaffected, as most forces were not fighting a battle of attrition but manoeuvre warfare.

Further the suggestion that we would raise enough funds through court cases. AGAINST WHO? Most criminals who committed crimes in the conflict are poorer people, fining them will give us about enough money to restore a few people's houses in Plains, not near enough for the mega compensation you are suggesting.

We can give the free medical treatment to everyone, we already built that in through state healthcare systems. But a tax freeze? no way. Lovia has barely any taxes at the moment and freezing it would only make this debt inducing issue worse. We should instead encourage people to pick up the pieces, we have some of the lowest costs to start up businesses and carry out repair work on properties in the world simply because of our tax and regulation simplicity (some might even say absence). Lovia can and will revive itself we just need to make sure we are here to support it.

We should take a reasoned approach like I am suggesting in Operation: Clean Slate and make sure that we have a solution that isn't a blanket aid handout but instead delegate the issue to the relevant powers (Governors and Ministers) to co-operate and form their own aid solutions that fit their local issues caused by the invasion. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 16:57, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * On the matter of foreign aid, we should reach out now and get what help we can. Foreign aid could make all the difference between a quick or slow recovery. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:58, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Cettatie can provide several million euros in aid, but that'd be about it. The country does not have a foreign aid office. Brunant's IDEA can provide long-term reconstruction assistance, in education, community projects technical and such. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:06, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

002. Operation: Clean Slate (stage 1)
We must move quickly, hopefully we can have passed some reforms and be onto more by the end of September.

Dealing with various groups and organisations
Firstly we must have statements recognising and accepting the current Lovian government sent to Congress by the following dissenting groups so as to bring order back to Lovia, else they shall be put under arrest:
 * State of Sylvania
 * The State of Sylvania does hereby recognise and accept the current Lovian government. - Lukas Hoffmnn - 18:47, September 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * State of Clymene
 * (Clymeni Governor to make statement)


 * Federal Police
 * The Federal Police submits and recognises the current Lovian government. - Dimitri Kalinnikov - 18:47, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

Further the following groups must recognise and accept the current Lovian government and sent a statement saying such to congress but also disband as a result of that statement, once again on pain of arrest:
 * Sofasi Citizen Union
 * (Group leader to make statement)


 * Southern Cross Alliance
 * (Group leader to make statement)


 * Lovian Land Army
 * The Lovian Land Army will disband in respect of the demands and recognise the current Lovian government. - Paul Kameron (benefactor) - 18:47, September 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * Sylvanian Militia
 * The Sylvanian Militia will stand down and recognise and accept the current Lovian government. - Joseph Fletcher - 18:47, September 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * Lovian National Army
 * The Lovian National Army was disbanded prior to this meeting. - Justin Abrahams - 19:21, September 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * UNLOR Forces
 * (Group leader to make statement)

If these statements are not made by the 30th of September, all of the offending groups shall be arrested.

Ministerial duties
I would like secondly for all Ministers referenced below to carry out their executive duties concerning the plan:


 * Minister of Energy and Resources (George Wrexley)
 * End the blackout across Oceana put in place by the previous Minister.
 * Ministers of Justice and Defence (Charles Jones, Lukas Hoffmann)
 * Issue an amnesty for collection of unlicensed weapons from all parties, any groups suspected of not having handed in unlicensed weapons by the 30th September will have their properties searched and will be arrested.
 * Arrest the members of the destabilising faction known as the "Communist Revolutionary Union", eliminate any trace of the organisation. Investigate and prosecute concerning actions during their attempt at seizing Clymene.
 * Minister of Finance (Dirk Brandt)
 * Give credit to the State Governments of Oceana and Clymene so that they can carry out the necessary aid. Keep track of how much credit is given(VITAL). Collect the foreign aid that is secured by the Minister of Foreign Relations and offset that against the credit given to the State Governments.
 * Minister of Foreign Affairs (??? < insert GP character)
 * Secure foreign aid from allied nations.

These actions should be started before the 14th of September or the offending Ministers shall be replaced by active members of government.

State aid efforts
Thirdly the Governors of Oceana and Clymene should work with their local government as well as other non-governmental organisations to co-ordinate aid to the following settlements that were affected by the rebellion and invasion:
 * Oceana
 * Boynitz
 * Coldhill
 * Dubnitz
 * East Hills
 * Heighnow
 * Hurbanova
 * Magna Augusta
 * Newmouth
 * Westwall
 * Tshadsa
 * Clymene
 * Cornwall
 * Plains
 * Rosendorp
 * Sofasi
 * Xiandu

Governors should ensure that clear and traceable records are kept of spending. Money may only be spent on aid as described below.

Aid to be distributed:
 * Medical aid to heal injuries sustained during the fighting (across the warzones)
 * Less affected states (Kings, Seven, Sylvania) are to provide what medical support that they can spare to assist in medical support
 * Monetary support for rent and necessary housing equipment is to be provided to those who lost homes (largely in Plains, due to the heavy fire carried out there)
 * All state governments are to find rent-able properties to provide the needed housing spaces
 * Free rationed food is to be distributed by the Oceana and Clymeni governments to those unable to feed themselves
 * Purchases of food from Lovian producers and businesses will be completely subsidised by the Ministry of Finance and should be taken in preference over purchases of food from outside of Lovia
 * Purchases of food from outside Lovia will be 75% subsidised by the Ministry of Finance
 * Should exploitation of the need to purchase food by a producer or business be suspected to be in practise, the Federal Police may detain suspects until the end of the aid provisions or for two weeks within which they may be taken to court and fined or have property confiscated as punishment
 * (DISCUSS AND ADD MORE)

This aid provisions will continue until 1st December 2014, by which time a permanent solution should be put in place by Congress.

Returning the displaced to their homes
Finally, the Federal Police will take it upon themselves to ensure that the refugees across the nation are safely returned to their home. The Minister of Defence will oversee the strategy for this.

All displaced peoples are to be returned to their homes before 1st November 2014.

Discussion
Discuss! We must action this within the week. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 18:47, September 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to start off the discussion by welcoming the actions put forward by Mr. Hoffmann. Also, in my capacity as Governor of Kings, I would like to confirm that our state government will assist Operation Clean Slate wherever possible. The Kings Healthcare Service is ready to provide medical aid, and will be sending a team of doctors and nurses to affected communities in Oceana and Clymene to assist in providing emergency healthcare. The Kings State Government also pledges to provide temporary shelter to citizens of Plains whose homes were destroyed during conflict in the town. Frijoles333 TALK 19:08, September 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Ministry of External Relations and Traspesian Cooperation Agency can help. Traspes (talk)
 * In general, very good :) Though, I'd like to add to the monetary support: those who lost their homes should also be given the most necessary house equipment (think about a simple stove, etc.) and perhaps we may also need food supplies in Oceana and Clymene. --O u WTB 10:15, September 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed. --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 10:32, September 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * IDEA is Brunant will also be able to provide technical assistance in regards to infrastructure which is of great need in affected areas (think schools, medical, community buildings and services). @ House equipment, we can also do with a large fundraising drive, not only of cash but of needed goods. Supermarkets can place collection bins and we can start a sort of Ice Bucket Challenge type thing to get high-profile people to undertake and raise both awareness and funds for the affected people in Lovia. In my school many years ago we did this fundraising thing for children in Central America where the students put together little packs of toys, books etc and we could involve even schoolkids in unaffected areas to reach out to children in Oceana and Clymene as well. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 18:32, September 3, 2014 (UTC)

(reset) Glad to have IDEA on board can Abrahams, due to his connections, get them over asap? Fundraising drives are second priority to the actual actions but should be pursued if you have spare time. Also we won't get a hyper thing like the ice bucket challenge but I do think we will be able to effectively advertise to our wikination allies population so that we can get support. Also cool idea for getting schools in unaffected areas to support them, Minister of Education should co-ordinate that effort. I think it might also not be a bad idea to create a government directed volunteer force to help, I also advise state governors to make maximum usage of volunteers both from the state and without. I also plan to make a plea through various media outlets, and encourage other Ministers to consider where their Ministries might be able to contribute to efforts. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 19:29, September 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Abrahams has no connection with Brunant, don't know why people keep on believing that. But, user horton11 (as the respective government people) can help you out). HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:06, September 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * @Hoffmann: I'll be more than happy to co-ordinate the effort Frijoles333 TALK 21:16, September 3, 2014 (UTC)

All current comments have been taken into account. State aid efforts have been updated. Log of actions has been added to better see what's happening. Glad that this is off to a great start, I for one think that the medical support should be universal from the lesser affected states and credit Mr Cebara with this suggestion, and the same with housing provision assistance. If we don't have more people involved in discussions and actions by tomorrow I'll send all current Members of Congress a message. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 16:55, September 3, 2014 (UTC)

So... We still gon' do summing? :P --O u WTB 10:28, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. People just seem to have slowed down. I'm going to be doing a lot over this weekend. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 11:24, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Haha okay :P --O u WTB 15:50, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well most of us do have other things as well. It's my final year before university so I have lots of work to do. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:38, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

Call me a pessimist or whatever, but I just don't see us as having the needed money in order to fund all of this. Quite simply, we get very little from taxing and we spend a ton on social programs. We need to cut social programs. 06:16, September 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure our wikination friends will help us out. --O u WTB 07:21, September 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * We might also be able to make Burenia pay at least a part of it. --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 19:38, September 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think Ankélot'apca will agree to that though. --O u WTB 05:04, September 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Does anyone over here happen to be good at convincing Burenians? Perhaps by somehow proving Lovian English not to be a weird language? :P --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 05:27, September 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Burenians should have to pay (as good ol' Uncle Oos suggested in August) and I'm sure they'll pay if they don't want to risk total military invasion. No peace treaty or even a formal ceasefire has been announced, so we could go with that option. Or, try and integrate them into the wikiantional community; pay for the damage they have done and you'll discover the benefits of being friendly with other nations. Or, we can talk soft AND carry the big stick. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:08, September 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * A would strongly oppose military intervention in Burenia. The costs, not only financial, are way too high. If we want to put pressure on Burenia, the only thing we can do is threaten with international sanctions. --O u WTB 10:09, September 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course we'd never invade, it'd just be the threat of war that could be used as a tool. We can threaten them with sanctions, but Burenia has no connection with other nations so it's hard to belive they'd have funds or interests abroad. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:36, September 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Burenia does have connections with Chvarqvia and Tagog though. --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 16:21, September 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's like being buddies with Transnistria, I was referring to real and better developed nations. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:35, September 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's true. Maybe they also are friends with North Korea and China? :P --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 16:45, September 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Possibly North Korea, but China would be harder to have as an ally; they wouldn't be likely to align themselves with another rogue state. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:00, September 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * With the UNGA meeting right now, I am curious: Are we part of the UN? If so, we could probably get them to make reparations through the UNSC to some extent. 00:12, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, we are part of the UN :) --O u WTB 05:13, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

Log of Actions taken during the first stage
This is a log of Actions taken by Congress, State Governors/Governments and Ministers during the first stage as well as other things happening that affect the crisis. This is just here so that we can all state what we are doing, where we are at and as an audit trail. Plus feel free to use it for roleplay although I'll make sure that it keeps on the general crisis we are facing. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 16:51, September 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * 2nd of September
 * Discussion starts in First Chamber after Prime Minister Hoffmann lays down first stage of Clean Slate
 * Kings Governor Marcel Cebara pledges medical support as well as housing for those who lost their homes in the siege of Plains
 * 3rd of September
 * A dialogue opens with Traspes on possible aid efforts
 * Oceana Governor Oos Wes Ilava supports additional support for refugees to provide them with essential housing goods

=Second Chamber=

022. Education reform
Alright, nothing's happened to it for a week now, so let's propose this thing. The illegalities section - if written - may be added later.

50+%


 * Article 6 - Primary Education Act
 * Primary education is the educating of children in a school or privately, by qualified teachers, in order to provide them with the apt knowledge and skills to go to secondary education.
 * Primary education is provided in primary or elementary schools, unless the child is taught privately.
 * Primary schools can be operated privately, that is by an individual or an organization, or publicly, that is by a neighborhood, hamlet, town, city, state or by the federal state.
 * Primary schools have to appoint teachers that are qualified to teach the subjects they are asked to teach.
 * All primary school teachers must have obtained a single Lovian Certificate of Education Level 2 or above or a Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education Level 2 or above.
 * Primary schools can turn down pupils only in special cases, these being the inability to provide education to a pupil with a particular problem, the inability to properly provide education for a pupil due to a lack of resources or if a pupil has proven to be unable to behave according to previous schools '  regulations. In no other cases, pupils shall be denied access without consultation with the Ministry of Education.
 * Primary schools provide general and basic education to a child. All subjects taught must be Lovian Certificates of Education and may not be Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education.
 * These subjects should be taught at least three hours per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * English (level 1)
 * Mathematics (level 1)
 * Arts and Crafts (level 1)
 * These subjects should be taught at least two hours per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * Physical Education (level 1)
 * Social Education (level 1)
 * The school must also choose a level 1 language subject to provide other than English that must be taught at least two hours a week, from a list which the State Government will provide.
 * These subjects should be taught at least one hour per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * History (level 1)
 * Geography (level 1)
 * Science (level 1)
 * Computing (level 1)
 * Primary schools may also provide more languages than the two mandatory subjects to pupils. The specific additional languages a pupil is taught however will be selected by the pupil themselves from the list of additional languages the school provides beyond the two mandatory language subjects.
 * Primary schools are free to choose to provide more classes of any of these subjects, or to provide other level 1 subjects considered valuable, in order to provide a minimum of twenty-two hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Primary schools may provide more classes beyond the twenty-two hour minimum but none beyond the maximum of thirty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * There shall be no doctrinal classes in primary schools.
 * In a course called 'Religions of the world', children may be taught about religions. If the school wishes to teach this subject, all major religions should be brought to attention, as well as a non-religious attitude.
 * Primary schools and their teachers may not try to convince children of a certain religious or political point of view, nor can they make any pupil exercise a religious act, unless the pupil and/or the parents agree with taking doctrinal classes.
 * These rules apply for the arrangement of the timetable:
 * A break of at least 10 minutes is compulsory between every two hours; more often is allowed.
 * There shall be no classes on Sunday.
 * There shall be no classes between 7 PM and 7 AM.
 * There must be a lunch break every day, of at least an hour, between noon and 2 PM.
 * Private education, by a qualified teacher, can be provided. In this case, the same rules apply.
 * Every child residing in Lovia has to receive six years of primary education, beginning in the schoolyear during which the child will reach the age of 6 years.
 * Only if a qualified psychologist and the pupil's teacher find it appropriate for the pupil to skip a schoolyear and continue education with older pupils, and if the parents agree on this, the pupil may skip a schoolyear.
 * Every pupil has to receive primary education until the schoolyear during which the pupil will reach the age of 12, except in the case mentioned above.
 * In case a primary school does not provide the kind of education described in this article, the Minister of Education or the Royal Educational Aims Council can decide to shut down the school until the service provided does qualify. In the meantime, the Ministry of Education must provide education to the pupils of that school, by allowing them instant pro-tempore access to another school.
 * The Royal Educational Aims Council is a council under the Ministry of Education, consisting of three educational specialists who decide on the secondary education curriculum, and who can close a school (of any level) if it does not qualify with the requirements.
 * The following three persons are members of the council: the Minister of Education, the Prime Minister, and the Minister of Labour as the pupils' and students' welfare watchdog.
 * The Rector of Blackburn University is added to the council as its fourth member only when the council is looking into a matter directly concerned with the higher educational system.
 * States are allowed to create legislation concerning special needs and religious education, and education in another language (special education).
 * The same rules apply to special education as to regular institutions.
 * Regular education must always remain available to pupils.
 * All settlements with more than 5,000 inhabitants must have at least one regular primary school.
 * A state must always have at least one regular primary school.
 * All primary schools within Lovia are funded by a School Voucher system.
 * A School Voucher system operates via a system of grants from the Ministry of Education to a parent for each child they have at the age of primary education to pay for their child's tuition within Lovia.
 * Parents are granted an amount towards each child's education, this grant is not given to the parents instead the Ministry of Education must create documents that shall be used to register where their child is currently receiving tuition so that the grant may be given directly to their child's school.
 * The current grant per child is L$11,000.
 * These documents must be simple, easy to understand and must not be misleading, there must also be a way to trace who filled in the documents.
 * To obtain the grant, at least one parent must be a Lovian citizen.
 * Parents wealthy enough to make tuition provisions for their child without state assistance should do so.
 * Parents earning over L$100,000 collectively will only be entitled to half of the grant.
 * Parents earning over L$250,000 collectively will not be entitled to any of the grant.
 * Primary schools may not charge a tuition that is higher than the grant.
 * Primary schools must register certain details in a primary school register.
 * A primary school must register:
 * Their name.
 * The address of the school.
 * The number of pupils they are currently teaching a primary education to.
 * The number of teachers they are currently employing to teach primary education.
 * The tuition fee the school is charging per child in primary education.
 * The date of registration.
 * These registers are managed on a state by state basis by the relevant state government.
 * Further details may be requested by the state government.
 * The details must be renewed every half-year since the date of registration.
 * If they are not renewed then the school shall be given a weeks grace period to fill in the details along with a notification from the state government, if it fails to renew details after the grace period then it is no longer considered able to provide education to students and must be shut down until it renews the details. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide education to the students of that school.
 * Only primary schools that are registered in the primary school register may be considered primary schools by law.


 * Article 7 - Secondary Education Act
 * Secondary education is the educating of adolescents in a school or privately, by qualified teachers, in order to provide them with the apt knowledge and skills to lead a life in a modern society and in order to be able to continue studying in university or take on an apprenticeship.
 * After having completed the schoolyear of their 16th birthday a child may choose to not continue ordinary school and instead pursue an apprenticeship, should they secure an apprenticeship then they may continue their education under their employer as an apprentice, if they at any point lose their apprenticeship they must at the soonest possible date rejoin a school.
 * Secondary education is provided in high schools or secondary schools, unless the adolescent is taught privately.
 * Secondary schools can be operated privately, that is by an individual or an organization, or publicly, that is by a neighborhood, hamlet, town, city, state or by the federal state.
 * Secondary schools have to appoint teachers that are qualified to teach the subjects they are asked to teach.
 * All secondary school teachers must have obtained a single Lovian Certificate of Education Level 4 or above or a Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education Level 4 or above.
 * Secondary schools can turn down pupils only in special cases, these being the inability to provide education to a pupil with a particular problem, the inability to properly provide education for a pupil due to a lack of resources or if a pupil has proven to be unable to behave according to previous schools '  regulations. In no other cases, pupils shall be denied access without consultation with the Ministry of Education.
 * Secondary schools provide two tiers of education, one to a child from the age of 12 until 16 and another to a child of the ages of 17 and 18 should the child choose to continue in school:
 * Secondary schools provide a general education to a child up until the age of 16. All subjects taught must be Lovian Certificates of Education and may not be Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education.
 * These subjects should be taught at least four hours per week, during the first four years of secondary education:
 * Mathematics (level 2)
 * These subjects should be taught at least two hours per week, during the first four years of secondary education:
 * English (level 2)
 * Literature (level 2)
 * Art (level 2)
 * Physical Education (level 2)
 * Social Education (level 2)
 * Technology (level 2)
 * Science (level 2)
 * The school must also choose a level 2 language subject to provide other than English that must be taught at least two hours a week, from a list which the State Government will provide.
 * These subjects should be taught at least one hour per week, during the first four years of secondary education:
 * History (level 2)
 * Geography (level 2)
 * Computing (level 2)
 * Secondary schools may also provide more languages than the two mandatory subjects to pupils between the ages of 12 and 16. The specific additional languages a pupil is taught however will be selected by the pupil themselves from the list of additional languages the school provides beyond the two mandatory language subjects.
 * Secondary schools are free to choose to provide more classes of any of these subjects, or to provide other level 2 subjects considered valuable, in order to provide a minimum of thirty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Secondary schools may provide more classes beyond the thirty hour minimum but none beyond the maximum of forty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * Secondary schools provide an advanced education to a child of the age of 17 and 18. All subjects taught must be Lovian Certificates of Education and may not be Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education.
 * These subjects should be taught at least five hours per week, during the last two years of secondary education:
 * English (level 3)
 * Mathematics (level 3)
 * The school must also choose a level 3 language subject to provide other than English that must be taught at least five hours a week, from a list which the State Government will provide.
 * Secondary schools must provide a wide selection of level 3 subjects for pupils to choose from to study. Pupils may choose to study a minimum of three extra subjects to study to bring their total time within school to 30 hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Pupils may choose to study two more subjects beyond the thirty hour minimum, bringing their total time within school to 40 hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * Each additional subject a pupil chooses to study must be taught for five hours each week.
 * Doctrinal classes may be provided in secondary schools by the school itself, if wished.
 * There shall be no more than one hour of doctrinal class per week.
 * The content of doctrinal classes, in which the teacher teaches a particular religious or political world view, can be chosen by the school and teacher.
 * There shall be no doctrinal classes about extremist views; that is: no far-right, far-left, extremist religious, violent or extreme nationalist views can be taught. If needed, the Royal Educational Aims Council and the Minister of Education can dismiss a doctrinal course.
 * A student is allowed not to follow a doctrinal course provided by a secondary school, if he or she does not want to take this course. In order to skip these classes, the student has to notify the school direction and stay on school property during the courses.
 * A course called 'Religions of the world', or any course similar to it, is not considered a doctrinal course.
 * No tests and exams shall be taken for these courses.
 * These rules apply for the arrangement of the timetable:
 * A break of at least 10 minutes is compulsory between every two hours; more often is allowed.
 * There shall be no classes on Sunday.
 * There shall be no classes between 7 PM and 7 AM.
 * There must be a lunch break every day, of at least an hour, between noon and 2 PM.
 * Private education, by a qualified teacher, can be provided. In this case, the same rules apply.
 * Every child residing in Lovia has to receive at least four years of secondary education, beginning in the schoolyear after which the adolescent has finished his primary education successfully. Additionally should a child not be employed as an apprentice, they must continue to receive education until they have completed the educational year in which they are 18.
 * Only if a qualified psychologist and the student's teacher find it appropriate for the student to skip a schoolyear and continue education with older students, and if the parents agree on this, the student may skip a schoolyear.
 * Secondary schools that do not provide the kind of education described in this article, the Minister of Education or the Royal Educational Aims Council can decide to shut down the school until the service provided do qualify. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide education to the students of that school.
 * States are allowed to create legislation concerning special needs and religious education, and education in another language (special education).
 * The same rules apply to special education as to regular institutions.
 * Regular education must always remain available to pupils.
 * All settlements with more than 10,000 inhabitants must have at least one regular secondary school.
 * A state must always have at least one regular secondary school.
 * All secondary schools within Lovia are funded by a School Voucher system.
 * A School Voucher system operates via a system of grants from the Ministry of Education to a parent for each child they have at the age of secondary education to pay for their child's tuition within Lovia.
 * Parents are granted an amount towards each child's education, this grant is not given to the parents instead the Ministry of Education must create documents that shall be used to register where their child is currently receiving tuition so that the grant may be given directly to their child's school.
 * The current grant per child is L$15,000.
 * These documents must be simple, easy to understand and must not be misleading, there must also be a way to trace who filled in the documents.
 * To obtain the grant, at least one parent must be a Lovian citizen.
 * Parents wealthy enough to make tuition provisions for their child without state assistance should do so.
 * Parents earning over L$100,000 collectively will only be entitled to half of the grant.
 * Parents earning over L$250,000 collectively will not be entitled to any of the grant.
 * Secondary schools may not charge a tuition that is higher than the grant.
 * Secondary schools must register certain details in a secondary school register.
 * A secondary school must register:
 * Their name.
 * The address of the school.
 * The number of pupils they are currently teaching a secondary education to.
 * The number of teachers they are currently employing to teach secondary education.
 * The tuition fee the school is charging per child in secondary education.
 * The date of registration.
 * These registers are managed on a state by state basis by the relevant state government.
 * Further details may be requested by the state government.
 * The details must be renewed every half-year since the date of registration.
 * If they are not renewed then the school shall be given a weeks grace period to fill in the details along with a notification from the state government, if it fails to renew details after the grace period then it is no longer considered able to provide education to students and must be shut down until it renews the details. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide education to the students of that school.
 * Only secondary schools that are registered in the secondary school register may be considered secondary schools by law.


 * Article 12 - Educational Boards Act
 * An educational board is a registered organisation that creates curriculum's for schools and is responsible for the testing, examination and marking of the students learning their curriculum's and then the distribution of the results. They are also granted the power to award Lovian Certificates of Education (LCE) and Supplimentary Lovian Certificates of Education (SLCE) to students.
 * Educational boards may award LCE's and SLCE's to students with an assigned grade attached to the certificate.
 * A Lovian Certificate of Education is a full course in a subject, ensuring that the student learning the curriculum related to the LCE understands the full knowledge of the subject over the full time of the educational level it is at.
 * Grades assigned to LCE's are related to the percentage achieved in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * Pass grades are as follows:
 * A*, which is awarded should a student get 95% or above in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * A, which is awarded should a student get 90% or above and below 95% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * B, which is awarded should a student get 80% or above and below 90% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * C, which is awarded should a student get 70% or above and below 80% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * D, which is awarded should a student get 60% or above and below 70% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * E, which is awarded should a student get 50% or above and below 60% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * Fail grades are as follows:
 * F, which is awarded should a student get 40% or above and below 50% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * U, which is awarded should a student get below 40% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * When a student fails they receive a letter with their fail grade and their percentage achieved in various exams and tests in order to help them understand and improve for the future rather than an LCE.
 * A Supplimentary Lovian Certificate of Education is a short course in a subject, ensuring that the student learning the curriculum related to the SLCE understands the basic and general knowledge of the subject but does so over a quarter of the time of the full course.
 * Grades assigned to SLCE's are related to the percentage achieved.
 * Pass grades are as follows:
 * A*, which is awarded should a student get 97.5% or above in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * A, which is awarded should a student get 95% or above and below 97.5% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * B, which is awarded should a student get 90% or above and below 95% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * C, which is awarded should a student get 85% or above and below 90% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * D, which is awarded should a student get 80% or above and below 85% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * E, which is awarded should a student get 75% or above and below 80% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * Fail grades are as follows:
 * F, which is awarded should a student get 70% or above and below 85% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * U, which is awarded should a student get below 70% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * When a student fails they receive a letter with their fail grade and their percentage achieved in various exams and tests in order to help them understand and improve for the future rather than an SLCE.
 * Subjects will be provided at various levels by Educational Boards. Subjects can either be defined by law or by certain governmental institutions.
 * Level 1 subjects are aimed at giving a wide and basic education, in cases where the subject is applicable to needing to teach using resources that might concern the state, nation and world, examples and resources concerning all three of these should be used. These are aimed to be taught in primary school by a person with at least a level 2 qualification to children aged 6-12, over the course of 6 years.
 * Level 2 subjects are aimed at giving a general and advanced education, in cases where the subject is applicable to needing to teach using resources that might concern the state, nation and world, examples and resources concerning only two or all three should be used. These are aimed to be taught in secondary school by a person with at least a level 4 qualification to adolescents aged 12-16, over the course of 4 years.
 * Level 3 subjects are aimed at giving a focused and advanced education, in cases where the subject is applicable to needing to teach using resources that might concern the state, nation and world, examples and resources concerning only one, two or all three may be used. These are aimed to be taught in secondary school by a person with at least a level 4 qualification to adolescents aged 16-18, over the course of 2 years.
 * Level 4 subjects are aimed at giving a highly focused and advanced education, the aim of this education should be to prepare the student for a career in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 5 qualification to adults aged 18-21, over the course of 3 years.
 * Level 5 subjects are aimed at building on a persons focused and advanced education, the aim of this education should be to advance the students knowledge further in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 6 qualification to adults aged 21 and over.
 * Level 6 subjects are aimed at further building on a persons focused and advanced education, the aim of this education should be to advance the students knowledge further in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 7 qualification to adults aged 21 and over.
 * Level 7 subjects are aimed at building on a persons focused and advanced education at an experimental level, the aim of this education should be to advance the students knowledge further in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 7 qualification to adults aged 21 and over.
 * Subjects that educational boards may provide at specific levels are any of those defined in law and those recognised by state governments on a state by state basis with the advice of the Ministry of Education.
 * Additionally the Ministry of Education may recognise subjects nationally with advice from Congress.
 * Educational boards must provide tests, examinations or coursework or a combination of those for students to complete as part of a subject to act as proof that they understand the full knowledge of the subject.
 * Educational boards may not refuse to provide a tutor, school or university access to a subject unless it does not have the proper resources to administrate the subject.
 * Educational boards may charge no more than a certain amount of Lovian Dollars per student per subject and must charge the same rate for all subjects it provides on the same level.
 * Educational boards may charge up to L$50 for level 1 subjects.
 * Educational boards may charge up to L$60 for level 2 subjects.
 * Educational boards may charge up to L$125 for level 3 subjects.
 * Educational boards may charge up to L$750 for level 4-7 subjects.
 * Educational boards must register certain details in an educational board register.
 * An educational board must register:
 * Their name.
 * The address of the educational board.
 * The number of courses they are currently offering.
 * The number of schools using the subjects they are offering.
 * The fee the educational board is charging per student per subject at each level.
 * The date of registration.
 * These registers are managed on a state by state basis by the relevant state government.
 * Further details may be requested by the state government.
 * The details must be renewed every half-year since the date of registration.
 * If they are not renewed then the educational board shall be given a weeks grace period to fill in the details along with a notification from the state government, if it fails to renew details after the grace period then it is no longer considered able to provide courses and correct administration of said courses it may be shut down until it renews the details. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide support to the schools using courses from the educational board that has been shut down.
 * Only Educational boards that are registered in the educational board register may be considered educational boards by law.

Pro

 * 14 votes. --O u WTB 03:16, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:12, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Wabba The I (talk) 14:15, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * But I have some questions and facts. I think three hours arts and crafts in the primary education is too much. Two is enough. Wabba The I (talk) 14:15, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * It includes music as well. I'd say it's very important. Research has shown that arts and crafts is very good for brain development at an early age :) --O u WTB 14:20, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1 vote Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 15:49, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. Overall, this seems okay. 77topaz (talk) 02:04, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes - tl;dr Seems pretty good to me. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:33, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes — Christopher Costello (Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 21:19, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Bart K (talk) 12:03, September 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Passed. 9 votes. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 16:44, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Contra

 * 8 votes - too much parental choice, vouchers (ok in general but i've come out against the too high amount of parental choice it gives), religious education, boards need more info on what they do, etc. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:20, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * there's plenty of information on what boards do, their role isn't complex. They create the course for a subject, supply that to schools and then provide the testing for the subject, verify the results of the tests and supply that to students, simple as. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 07:15, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, that makes a lot more sense now. Perhaps too much legalese? Also, are there Ministry of Education-ran boards? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:46, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Probably. There's no restriction against it, you can just set one up and go ahead that way. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 21:39, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

Abstain

 * - Remove the unfinished apprenticeships act and we'll get that passed later - Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 08:19, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Additionally I need to finish off the educational boards act, I can do that early today. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 08:47, September 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * Wanna vote pro now? :o --O u WTB 13:21, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. :) Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:11, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Good :P --O u WTB 14:12, September 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * - I would rather the voucher system be removed and replaced through a mix of tax and government funding. No person should have to pay upfront for their education, unless it is for private schooling. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:08, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Horton, you do not seem to understand the voucher system. It is basically exactly what you say. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:10, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed :) --O u WTB 14:12, September 16, 2013 (UTC)

Also it's not immoral to charge immigrants who want to come to Lovia for schooling, it's so easy to get Lovian citizenship that the argument you state is redundant. On your thoughts on exam grades, what you suggest is a false economy, as under your proposal an A grade from one year is worth a different amount to another year, and students who do well may be pushed down grades under your system just because other students did well too, there is no continuity or stability in the system you suggest. Additionally defining the grade boundaries is not nonsensical, we're recognising the validity of the gradings as a government and the grade boundaries are not silly especially as the one you reference is for a supplementary course which requires that it be ensured that someone has actually learned and understood what they've learned more than a standard course as it is shorter and in slightly less detail because of that. Concerning flexibility, there is plenty of fexibility, educational boards decide everything on how things are tested however we simply give a standard by which the worth of a LCE may be judged, an A (90%) means that a student has an almost perfect comprehension of the subject whereas a C (70%) shows a comprehension of a majority of the subject. This stability and continuity and lack of random flux is useful for both employers and universities. And I do not think we should have one board, that would limit user creativity and cause problems by centralising power far to much to a single individual who may simply leave the whole thing inactive and undone, which has happened under so many centralised systems before. And supplement in this means to supplement a deficiency as the LSCE is supposed to be used to supply urgent areas of need rather than to be used as a basic education in a course. And I don't quite understand what you mean on the long hours or apprenticeships, if you decided to stay in an academic education you should be prepared to put the effort in to learn and I don't know quite what you mean about apprenticeships, they aren't there for people who cannot handle academic education, they are there to supply a practical way into the workforce while also receiving the basic education. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 13:20, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * (5 votes) In general I appreciate the attempt to improve the detail of the law, but I have some reservations which prevent me voting pro. I'm rather uneasy about the voucher system, but I can live with it. However, I don't agree with parents having to pay for their children's education if their incomes are over a certain amount. $50000 dollars is practically nothing - it's about £14000 per parent which is a very low income in Britain, let alone Lovia, and if the parents have multiple children they won't be able to afford to eat. It's also immoral to charge immigrants for schooling. These people are likely to be poorer than average and if they pay taxes then they deserve to receive government money. The Educational Boards Act also concerns me. It's too close to the British system (i.e. screwed up, particularly the two fail grades) for my liking, and it's unnecessary for the government to specify grade boundaries (they're also pretty silly: 97.5% for the top grade?) in the law (!), and such inflexibility is a real pain for exam boards that have to produce a paper of identical difficulty year after year. A better system, if anything, would be to specify that 5% of students receive the top grade, 10% the next, etc. I personally think that one educational board would be enough for such a small country as Lovia, or the schools could set their own exams and have them moderated by an external body to ensure fairness (I believe something similar to the latter occurs in Germany). There are also some spelling and grammatical errors which I'll look at this evening, particularly 'supplimentary' - I actually have an issue with the word as it implies extension to the core material, which is the opposite of the intended meaning. Finally, I object to the long class hours for Level 3 students. At this stage in their education independent education should be heavily emphasised, and if students aren't able to cope with that they should have chosen the apprenticeship option. --Semyon 11:53, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Semyon, you are wrong on the income but I understand your concerns there, L$50,000 is actually roughly equal to £28,000 so asking parents who would be earning (in pounds here) £56,000 collectively, which I'm sure you know, even collectively that's a lot of money each and that's only to half the grant, not to take it away.
 * Kunarian, I think you might not have read what I wrote very carefully. It strikes me that much of what you've written is intended to advance your own proposal, instead of and sometimes at the expense of pursuing the best legal solution. None of your defence alleviates my concerns, and some of the points you've misunderstood outright, though maybe something I wrote was unclear too. I didn't post in order to attack the law, but to point out a number of flaws that need to be corrected before Congress passes the bill. Of course, if you think a point-by-point rebuttal is still necessary, then I can provide one. :) --Semyon 14:07, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is needed, I think this may simply be a misunderstanding. Additionally I always believe that I must argue my side first so that we may root out things that are not real issues and then anything that is left we can deal with. If my responses did not alleviate your concerns, maybe we should move this discussion as not to block up the voting area and try again, maybe more clearly outlining where you find flaws and then we can see whether I can alleviate them and then if not then how can we address those (whether or not this actually passes). I think to be honest we need to see if people feel that this is worth passing, I certainly feel it is, then if it passes and people still feel there are flaws to address, then we can address them. If it fails to pass then we shall reform it there and attempt to pass it once more. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:16, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

I still don't think your grant idea is good enough. Education in Lovia should be tax funded, not by grants to parents. And with regards to higher-income families, they should not be forced to pay up front unless it is for private education. That they shouldn't pay more taxes isn't wrong, but both richer and less-rich people should have the same access to "free" public education without barriers. HORTON11 : •  14:23, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * That is what the grant in this case is, it is basically a tax funded ticket to education for the child. If you really feel higher earners should be given the grant then I am fine with that but pass this bill now and we can address concerns in further amendments that I will pro actively work for, and will work with you and semyon to do so. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:29, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well there shouldn't be a ticket then. People should be able to enrol in schools without one. Taxes should be used to directly fun the education system, not to go through. I also agree with Semyon on immigrant education, This is an inalienable right and they should have open access without having to worry about paying a lump sum. That doesn't mean that they'd study free, as all families in Lovia should be contributing via taxres to this. And one more thing, if we're working to pass a comprehensive education act, should we not do the same for healthcare and havve a publica tax-funded system? These two would go well hand-in-hand. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:36, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * You do not seem to understand the benefits of having a flexible funding system like this rather than a simple but flawed purely centralised government lump sum system. We can deal with the issue of immigrant education but that must be dealt with after a debate and consideration of options I feel. On healthcare we need to look at the issue but we've ended up devolving that power largely down to the states. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:39, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * The government won't give a lump sum. The system you're proposing is largely OK, but it does not need vouchers, coupons and added steps in the bureaucracy. Just a simple and direct form like you pay you taxes and x% goes toward education, which the ministry then hands down to states and schools. And also, if health has been devolved, why can't education be as well? HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:01, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * There is less bureaucracy in this system than any practical system you propose of direct government funding. And funding by a percentage of tax raised is a terrible idea! Education can be devolved, if we repeal the current legislation, otherwise it cannot. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 15:14, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Nah, the system proposed has its flaws and will create more bureaucracy issues as it is not a simple direct system. Funding by a percentage of tax raised is not a terrible idea! It's one of the better methods. Well presently education is highly devolved (states and schools able to set up curriculums) and this law would actually do the opposite. And if there is federal legislation on the matter, it seems to have no effect on decentralized efforts. While we should coordinate activities to set up a network of public schools across Lovia, states should be able to set up curriculums and take charge of the specifics to better suit their needs. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:25, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

I detailed my objections on a separate page, as Kunarian suggested. See here. :) --Semyon 15:20, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

Devolving education should be a low priority. I agree with Horton, it's much easier to do it directly and have public schools than have grants. And as I said, the grant system gives too much parental choice when it's the student's education. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:58, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Time in some ways despite my devolutionary tendencies on your first sentence only. And no, it's much easier on us to have a flexible system like the voucher system. Additionally Time you need to read the DHR and read the bit about parents and children and education. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 21:57, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I haven't read it, but I think I know what it says based on your position. Even so, I disagree. Parents should not have as much control over their children. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:40, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
@Kunarian: Just a small reminder, you've written pounds instead of dollars, don't worry it's the sort of thing I would do :P Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 15:47, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for notifying, updated to Lovian dollars now :) --O u WTB 17:12, September 16, 2013 (UTC)

Note to provoters: the current proposal is a breach of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. I'd like you to carefully consider some of my points about this bill, and if you agree with me, change your vote until these issues are fixed. --Semyon 15:22, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Corrected, he is referring to another part of law which I must now look at. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:15, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry everyone, I misread some numbers, as Kunarian pointed out. The law does still contradict the part of the UNDHR which states primary education must be free, though. --Semyon 16:26, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I support the bill as long as it ensures that every child in Lovia gets an equal, high quality education Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 16:28, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Semyon is right, although I don't think we signed the agreement, it'd be best to keep in line with it. We'll have to move this back to the first chamber. I must say though it is annoying that this was not discussed for the several weeks in which this proposal was being drafted. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:38, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd support that, or even better a complete rethink before proposing it. We should get as much ideas from Lovians possible before 1st chambering it. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:40, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that Kunarian. I'm aware that I'm less active in the Chambers than I should be. In my defence, I wasn't aware of that clause in the DHR. --Semyon 16:43, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

022. Repeal education act
Let's try this. Repealing the act will give way to the states to fill in education as they want. Congress can still excercise its right to repeal any state laws that are "undesired". We gotta face it, on a national level we're not coming out of this...

50+%

Pro

 * 14 votes. --O u WTB 06:10, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes - however I think it would be better to quickly (before others vote) include a mandate for states to legislate for their own educational systems before a certain date, let's say some time in March so that even the less active states have time to do it and to make up for distraction by federal elections. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 07:20, September 20, 2013 (UTC) - passed the reform
 * 1 vote I support this, as it gives individual states more power to decide Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 15:57, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes. That's right, I'm still here, and the 10 minute break thing is absurd. It should be 5 minutes for each hour at school and a minimum of 40 minutes for lunch is more reasonable. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 22:13, September 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I wouldn't say it's absurd, it's just that Europeans have different customs for breaks (especially for lunch) than us Americans. We should decide which custom to use without defaulting to either. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:18, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's why we need this on state-level :P --O u WTB 08:47, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * 9 votes. I agree with Frijoles on this one, and Kun's idea is great .  <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 06:51, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Contra

 * 8 votes - Keep it centralized. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 10:52, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes - I don't see the need for this. I think it's a bad idea to use devolution as a compromise in every argument, otherwise people will just get annoyed at the systems in other states. --Semyon 14:18, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 1. the law has not prevented states from having full control/say over the education (so see no need to repeal) and 2. We should keep a basic framework of education basics as a guideline for states to follow. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:23, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not true, please read the current law and you'll see that practically everything is fixed and it's pretty much impossible to have education in the Oceana language or religious education. --O u WTB 16:25, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * But you can still teach Oceana or religious classes per the current law. That's something we can change (I'd also like to include Bredish in Clymene), but we don't need to repeal both acts. And my commenty was based on experiences in Clymene (and others), where states and individuals are free to create curriculums, organization etc. Apart from this issue our education act provides a lot of freedom. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:12, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * My entire goal is to be able to promote the - currently oppressed - Oceana language and religious freedom. The current law needs to be modified at least. --O u WTB 17:29, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes - We just voted for the bill, and I personally see no need for a total repeal. However, I'm also all for additional state freedoms, and taking religion out of school is something I'm personally against. I think it wise to like this play out by itself, and act on what happens after that. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:22, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. We just passed this act, and now we are already repealing it? That seems rather like a waste of time. Anyway, on the subject of states passing laws, only Sylvania and Oceana have state councils which are in any way active - the other states would likely remain without any legislation at all for some time. Therefore, it is useful to have a federal legislation in place as "back-up", which the individual states could modify slightly for cultural reasons etc. 77topaz (talk) 20:46, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think it passed. --Semyon 20:52, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep, it only has 40 or so votes. topaz and Viva, please revise your statements (though staying as abstain is fine). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:22, September 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * So, we're holding these two votes at the same time? That could have strange results, if f.e. both votes end up with 50+ votes. Shouldn't we finalise the other vote before we launch this one? 77topaz (talk) 08:27, September 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you're thinking of the wrong Education Act. The acts this vote is referring to are the ones already in the law that were passed years ago, not the ones in the vote above. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:08, September 21, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
I left for three days and what to heck even occured. Marcus/Michael Villanova 03:40, September 21, 2013 (UTC)

Whilst I believe that states should have powers to decide what goes on with regards to schools and curriculum within the state, I propose that we keep the LCEs that Kunarian has created, so that Lovia has a qualification that is nationally recognised by employers and higher education institutions. If we did this, states could still choose the curriculum and provide education in regional languages, but students would still leave school with a nationally recognised qualification. Thoughts? Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 08:06, September 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * There is nothing to keep. The law is not approved.. --O u WTB 08:42, September 21, 2013 (UTC)

023. IWO Council
1. The IWO Council will be the governing body of the International Wikination Organisation. It will have a Secretrary General as the acting leader and 50 seats divided between several countries.

These countries are: 2. The IWO's main headquarters will be in Noble City, however each member nation will have a base. Kemburg's 5 seat allocation will be awarded to Maores if it does not become a member before January 1, 2014.
 * Lovia (15 seats)
 * Brunant (10 seats)
 * Libertas (10 seats)
 * Insel Islands (5 seats)
 * Maores (5 seats)
 * Kemburg (5 seats)

3. Elections for both Secretary General and the IWO Council will be held for a whole month, starting on January 1, 2014, and occuring annually.

<font color="Blue"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   17:56, November 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * This looks good, but is there a procedure for new member nations to go through to get representation in the congress? Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 18:41, November 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * On that matter, Kemburg isn't an IWO member yet. 77topaz (talk) 23:50, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think a council is necessary. A secretary-general is fine. Also, why is this in the Second Chamber? I will move this to the First Chamber if no answer is given by tomorrow. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:14, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

Because it's moved to the Second Chamber now, it's already in the First Chamber. <font color="Blue"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   17:00, November 9, 2013 (UTC)

Please send it back to the first chamber. Plus we also need to look at what the IWO declaration and foundation says about the council that technically exists. HORTON11 : •  17:47, November 9, 2013 (UTC)

'''THIS IS MOVED TO THE FIRST CHAMBER. <font color="Blue"> Happy65  undefined<font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  18:19, November 9, 2013 (UTC)'''
 * That doesn't seem to have happened. :P 77topaz (talk) 19:40, November 9, 2013 (UTC)

Anyway, I believe Mäöres should get 10 councillors too. It still holds a large share of semi-active users and is one of the larger wikis. --O u WTB 19:05, November 9, 2013 (UTC)

National Reserve Act

 * 1) Creation of the Lovian National Reserves for the cause of
 * 2) promotion of sustainable growth;
 * 3) employment of the common public;
 * 4) stable prices
 * 5) preserving the worth of the currency promoted by the Lovian state;
 * 6) In its respectable power it will provide its services and power upon;
 * 7) Lovian banks which are part of the National Reserves system.
 * 8) Such banks will provide zero governance over the National Reserves, but may retain the ability to advise the National Reserves on issues concerning such matters of economic importance.
 * 9) Such responsibility for the National Reserves will be to provide safe transactions between banks, ensuring a safe payment system inside of the Lovian state, maintaing that all Lovians money is treated safely and will review banks actions that may conflict with the economy and the common people.
 * 10) Maintain the ability of setting the discount rates; an intrest rate which the National Reserve may set upon individual banks whom are part of a loaning agreement.
 * 11) Maintain the ability of setting the reserve requirments; the amount of physical funds that depository institutions are required to hold in reserve against deposits in bank accounts. It determines how much money banks can create through loans and investments.
 * 12) The Lovian Government
 * 13) Insure that a secure and legal tender is possible, possessing that the currency supported by the Lovian state is not corrupted.
 * 14) All Lovian coinage and legal tender must be produced inside of the Lovian state under the authority of the National Reserves.
 * 15) Providing safe keeping of the Lovian governments holdings of collected taxes and state owning in companies.
 * 16) Distribution of such holdings of the government too respectable areas requested by the Lovian Congress.
 * 17) Creation of short-term and long-term interest rates and foreign currency exchange rates.
 * 18) Provide the Lovian Government with loans and bonds to supply itself with funding.
 * 19) In return such interests set by the Chairman will be repayed by the government.
 * 20) The Lovian Economy & Corporations
 * 21) While providing such responsibilities in Article (2) under Section (1) of paragraphs (2) and (1) the Lovian National Reserve may investigate if such domestic or international companies or corporations are seekings to manipulate the Lovian economy, spend such money through means of illegal activities or seek to manipulate the National Reserve.
 * 22) If such activities are found in an investigation, the Lovian National Reserve may have the authority to punish such banks that provide loaning or services to said corporations.
 * 23) Punishments may also include the halt of that corporations assets and ownings in Lovia, seizure of such money being traded illegally or being manipulated.
 * 24) Leadership & Duties
 * 25) Selection & removal of Chairman.
 * 26) In a majority vote of the Congress of Lovia will a candidate be selected.
 * 27) In a tree-fourths vote by the Lovian Congress may a Chairman be removed.
 * 28) Chairman of the National Reserves will have a life term position, which will remove any threat of being ousted due to public opinion due to short term political interests and may do what is best for the state of Lovia's economy.
 * 29) In such authority, the National Reserves will be independent from any external or internal government office, such as an agency or ministry.
 * 30) Qualifications for Chairman
 * 31) Must be a member of the Congress.
 * 32) Must have been a citizen of Lovia for more then one month.
 * 33) The Chairman will retain the responsibilities of controlling the National Reserve and its powers, explained in (1) and (2).
 * 34) In case of an economic turmoil or discourse, the Chairman of the National Reserve may activate temporary powers to intervene into the Lovian economy and Lovian national budget.

One law that I did write while I was here, but never proposed it. Here it goes. -Sunkist- (talk) 08:07, December 9, 2013 (UTC)

Has this been through the First Chamber? 77topaz (talk) 08:18, December 9, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah a long time ago, nobody cared. I just want to see if it would pass. There was a lot of discussion on it before hand. So just vote on it, if you vote it down, it won't effect me that much. -Sunkist- (talk) 08:22, December 9, 2013 (UTC)

We should just have a Central Bank. We don't need an extended Federal Reserve System like the U.S. HORTON11 :  •  16:18, December 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * agreed with horton. but it should have more duscussion in FC Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:42, December 9, 2013 (UTC)

Traspes becoming a full member of the IWO
Ok, this will be the vote for accepting Traspes in the IWO. A vote has also been initiated in Brunant and should be done in the other wikinations soon enough. HORTON11 : •  15:37, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

Pro

 * 15 votes. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG
 * 4 votes. (Though, there are obviously still aspects which should be expanded etc.) 77topaz (talk) 05:47, December 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes. Looks good. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:09, December 16, 2013 (UTC)

Abstain

 * I'd like more information on Traspes first. Can someone send a link in the comments? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:24, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
Votes have been initiated in Mäöres and Inselöarna as well. 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 18:20, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

[http://es.traspes.wikia.com Here it is]. The Republic of Traspes is a country in the Atlantic beside Spain, Portugal and Morrocco. Spanish is the offical language. [[User:Traspes|Traspes]] (talk) 03:31, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

I'll try to get back to you soon on this. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 22:20, December 15, 2013 (UTC)

So.. Should we renew this vote? --O u WTB 10:34, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I suppose so :P --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 17:13, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Who wants to do the honors? HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:17, February 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't believe 27 votes should be enough for this vote to pass, but if so, I guess we can have the same for Kemburg's vote, right? <font color="Blue"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 06:41, April 11, 2014 (UTC)

Prime Minister Vote
Add your candidacies below.

Oos Wes Ilava

 * 9 votes - Backing up Oos - Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:45, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * 6 votes <font color="Blue"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 20:18, January 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * 6 votes --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 10:17, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Happy, you can't just move someone else's vote, instead of your own. :P 77topaz (talk) 21:24, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * We agreed that we'd support Oos if he wasn't doing well - and therefore with 4kant's unawareness of the current situation, I decided to move him too. <font color="Blue"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 07:45, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * 18 votes. --O u WTB 14:40, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Justin Abrahams

 * 15 votes. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:55, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * 10 votes Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 16:33, February 1, 2014 (UTC) I think I've now got ten votes?! Anyway, yes I'm supporting Horton for PM
 * 9 votes. 77topaz (talk) 19:08, February 2, 2014 (UTC) (This is probably the best idea given the circumstances)
 * 6 votes. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:23, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

Whan should we end the vote, cause we do need a limit. HORTON11 : •  12:38, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

When someone gets either 50 votes, or if nobody has voted in 3 days (or changed votes). <font color="Blue"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   18:08, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

Horton, in the mean time, I would recommend that you start making a government to propose. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:17, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Probably I can't vote but I just want to say Oos has my support. Wabba The I (talk) 15:44, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

I suppose Jhon Lewis could send some angels from heaven to convince the MOTCs that they should vote for Oos :P --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 17:06, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Let's give this vote 1 more hour. Justin Abrahams is currently leading by 1 vote (that could change). <font color="Blue"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   17:30, February 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Sufficient time has passed so we should end the vote. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 18:30, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * The last vote was 5 February. So, not sufficient time has passed. --O u WTB 11:52, February 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think that's enough voting. 8 days seems long enough (longest ever in Lovian history). Sufficient time has passed. <font color="Blue"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 13:02, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

027. Abrahams I government

 * Prime Minister: Justin Abrahams
 * Ministry of Agriculture: Rakham Tarik Al-Asmari
 * Ministry of Commerce: Lukas Hoffmann
 * Ministry of Culture: Oos Wes Ilava
 * Ministry of Defense: Lukas Hoffmann
 * Ministry of Education: Marcel Cebara
 * Ministry of Energy and Resources: Charles Alexander Bennett
 * Ministry of Environment: Nicholas Sheraldin
 * Ministry of Family, Youth, and Elderly: Oos Wes Ilava
 * Ministry of Finance: Bart Koenen
 * Ministry of Foreign Affairs: Nicholas Sheraldin
 * Ministry of Health: Justin Abrahams
 * Ministry of Justice: Charles Jones
 * Ministry of Labour: Marcel Cebara
 * Ministry of Tourism and Sport: Alexei Krasnov
 * Ministry of Transportation: Alexei Krasnov
 * Speaker of the Congress: Nicholas Sheraldin

For

 * 15 votes. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 18:51, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * 6 votes. <font color="Blue"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:09, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * 9 votes. This seems reasonable. Though, the actual characters (as opposed to the users) wouldn't occupy more than one ministerial post at once, so maybe that should be clarified. 77topaz (talk) 21:27, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * 10 votes Looks good! Here's to getting stuff done in 2014 :) Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 12:27, February 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * 6 votes. Not much to complain about :P --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 08:44, February 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * 18 votes. --O u WTB 09:52, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Comments
Note to all, if you character appears twice you can replace one post with another one. HORTON11 : •  21:34, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to point out Sheraldin has 3 ministries (counting Speaker), and Martijn has 0. Martijn isn't the most active user though, so I don't think people will mind. It's up to you, Horton. <font color="Blue"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   09:00, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

Technically speaking, Speaker of the Congress isn't a ministry anyway (and obviously only one of those posts would actually be occupied by Nicholas Sheraldin). And Martijn almost never voted in the Second Chamber or anything - most of his edits in the last twelve months were just on elections - so that shouldn't really be a problem. 77topaz (talk) 10:13, February 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * Speaker does not carry any added particular benefits and it isn't a ministry. And I went with Bart for that other CCPL vote, though truthfully I don't see him being active. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:51, February 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry I missed this. I've been held-up a lot recently, glad to have the departments though. :) Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:08, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

✅ This proposal is accepted with 64% of the vote. HORTON11 : •  14:22, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Kemburg joining the IWO
If this vote is passed, Kemburg shall become a full member of the International Wiki Organisation.

For

 * 6 votes <font color="Blue"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 18:09, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * 10 votes, or however many I have now Frijoles333 TALK 18:10, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * 6 votes --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 05:34, April 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * 18 votes. --O u WTB 17:11, April 11, 2014 (UTC)

Against

 * I don't can vote, however, I don't support this. Wabba The I (talk) 15:25, April 11, 2014 (UTC)

Prasia joining the IWO
If this vote passes, Prasia shall become a full member of the IWO

Pro

 * 10 votes Frijoles333 TALK 17:54, May 3, 2014 (UTC)

Comments
Come on guys, all vote please! And vote for Kemburg to join the IWO if you haven't already Frijoles333 TALK 17:54, May 3, 2014 (UTC)

001. Government
Let us proceed with this Congress and begin work to reinvigorate Lovia. I propose the Hoffmann I Government:


 * Prime Minister
 * Lukas Hoffmann
 * Ministry of Agriculture
 * Rakham Tarik Al-Asmari
 * Ministry of Commerce
 * Alexei Krasnov
 * Ministry of Culture
 * Oos Wes Ilava
 * Ministry of Defense
 * Lukas Hoffmann
 * Ministry of Education
 * Marcel Cebara
 * Ministry of Energy and Resources
 * George Wrexley
 * Ministry of Environment
 * Nicholas Sheraldin
 * Ministry of Family, Youth, and Elderly
 * Oos Wes Ilava
 * Ministry of Finance
 * Dirk Brandt
 * Ministry of Foreign Affairs
 * Nicholas Sheraldin
 * Ministry of Health
 * Justin Abrahams
 * Ministry of Justice
 * Charles Jones
 * Ministry of Labour
 * Jason Rogers
 * Ministry of Tourism and Sport
 * Aina Sarria
 * Ministry of Transportation
 * Alexei Krasnov
 * Speaker of the Congress
 * Nicholas Sheraldin

Pro

 * Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 19:17, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * except maybe Krasnov should be PM <font color="Blue"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:19, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Jason Rogers 22:18, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Dirk Brandt (Reximus55) 22:56, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * --O u WTB 07:18, August 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 20:28, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * 19:25, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Abstain


✅ This proposal is accepted with 53% of the vote. The Hoffmann I Government is now in service. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 21:26, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Comments
Let's get this moving. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 19:17, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

I'd support this if we could continue with either the below proposal (the original first chamber proposal), the below proposal with Sheraldin or Cebara as Prime Minister or one more UL ministry given that as PM I only took one ministry position. HORTON11 : •  19:30, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * What ministry would you like? We could easily readjust this now and ask people to recast votes if you would agree. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:09, August 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Perhaps commerce. I have some ideas for that in mind. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:27, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I will see if I can get a switch done then. However, considering how close this is to passing I will do it after it passes. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 22:46, August 21, 2014 (UTC)

One vote short of being accepted. --O u WTB 09:40, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

We need to get one more vote and start governing. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 20:08, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't know that there was a vote, but still I support it. Traspes (talk) 01:59, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

002. Government
If we want to maintain the general list of people in the old Government, we would have approxiamately this:
 * Prime Minister: Justin Abrahams
 * Ministry of Agriculture: Rakham Tarik Al-Asmari
 * Ministry of Commerce: Lukas Hoffmann
 * Ministry of Culture: Oos Wes Ilava
 * Ministry of Defense: Lukas Hoffmann
 * Ministry of Education: Marcel Cebara
 * Ministry of Energy and Resources: George Wrexley
 * Ministry of Environment: Nicholas Sheraldin
 * Ministry of Family, Youth, and Elderly: Oos Wes Ilava
 * Ministry of Finance: Dirk Brandt
 * Ministry of Foreign Affairs: Nicholas Sheraldin
 * Ministry of Health: Justin Abrahams
 * Ministry of Justice: Charles Jones
 * Ministry of Labour: Jason Rogers
 * Ministry of Tourism and Sport: Aina Sarria
 * Ministry of Transportation: Alexei Krasnov
 * Speaker of the Congress: Nicholas Sheraldin

Pro

 * HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 19:27, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

Abstain

 * --O u WTB 07:19, August 16, 2014 (UTC) I believe we need a change, especially in the PM section.

❌ Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 11:56, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

Comments
Let's see if there's any agreement on this, which was the First Chamber proposal. HORTON11 : •  19:27, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think this should quite be in the Second Chamber yet. Especially when a very similar proposal is currently being voted on. If this measure passes and so does the above measure, it would effectively be removing Hoffmann as PM, which is a risky political move. I just think that we should table this and discuss the options about keeping this Government on the discussion of the other proposal. 22:58, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to be supporting this proposal, although unfortunately I haven't been as active as I'd have liked to have been lately. But as Hoffmann said, let's reinvigorate Lovia and continue the work that has already been done to ensure a happy, free and peaceful future for our country. Here's to what I know will be a great congress Frijoles333 TALK 13:07, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

003. New election and the formation of a new government system

 * 1. Article 8 of the Constitution is repealed and replaced by the following article:
 * 2. Both federal elections and state elections are repealed and replaced by "Lovian elections"
 * 3. Lovian elections
 * 1. Every year Lovian elections must be held for 3 seats per state. A state government is formed by the three seat holders in all five states.
 * 2. During a period of three weeks, any Lovian citizen can, without restrictions, become a candidate in only one state the Lovian Elections. This period begins exactly one month and twenty-one days before Inauguration Day.
 * 3.During a period of three weeks, any Lovian citizen can cast his or her votes in favor of candidates in the Lovian Elections. Any Lovian citizen aged 18 or older may exercise their right to vote in a Lovian election.
 * 1. Every citizen may cast a vote in up to three states he/she owns a property in.
 * 2. Citizens may choose not to cast their votes, or to only cast some of them.
 * 3. Citizens may not cast multiple votes for the same candidate. All cast votes must be given to different candidates.
 * The normal dates of elections, excluding the possibility of a dissolution of a State Government, are set at December 10th to 31st for nominations, and from January 1st to 21st for voting. Inauguration Day is set at February 1st.
 * The three candidates with the most votes in Sylvania will gain a seat each in the Sylvania State Government.
 * The three candidates with the most votes in Oceana will gain a seat each in the Oceana State Government.
 * The three candidates with the most votes in Kings will gain a seat each in the Kings State Government.
 * The three candidates with the most votes in Clymene will gain a seat each in the Clymene State Government.
 * The three candidates with the most votes in Seven will gain a seat each in the Seven State Government.
 * New federal elections must be held when more than half of the seat holders are inactive; either self-declared or if they have not edited for over a month (30 days).
 * 4. Prime Minister and Ministers
 * A coalition of political parties that control more than 50% of the seats in all states combined should form between the end of elections and Inauguration Day.
 * The coalition should create a proposal of which seat holder should become the Prime Minister and the ministers of the federal government. This proposal must be approved in over 50% of State Governments.
 * If no government proposal is approved, then the former government should continue its duties until a government proposal is approved by Congress.

This could change Lovia forever, almost certainly for the better. Considering the wiki is inactive, if I receive more support than negativity, then I suppose we can pass this legislation.

Nick Bale - Conservative Nationalist Party

Pro

 * User:Happy65 Alexei Krasnov

Against

 * I cannot vote but I am against this. I don't think changing the constitution (especially to be even more confederate, which is so far NOT correlated with activity) will help. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:42, January 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with Timemaster. --O u WTB 18:43, January 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * This is also the wrong forum to bring the issue up in. Go to the Constitutional Convention if you desire to get something done on this matter. 09:29, January 3, 2015 (UTC)