Forum:Wikination

Forum:Wikination is the community forum for this wiki where users discuss the way the site works and the way it should work, as well as non-Lovian community events and policies. The forum does not have authority to alter the site regulations or decide on proposed deletes, moves and blocks; it is a forum for the entire community to poll and discuss, and finally to pass the community's findings on to the site council. The forum is moderated by the site council members and the admins.

Forum opening
I hereby officially open the Community Forum! 06:01, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Congratulations :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:04, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * horay!!!Marcus Villanova 19:28, October 1, 2010 (UTC)

It is really a nice initiative. Makes things a lot more transparant. Love it! Dr. Magnus 09:52, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Site council creation
The site council will soon be created. 06:01, October 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * I hope to be apart of it! Marcus Villanova 19:28, October 1, 2010 (UTC)

Discussion topic: uncontrolled growth?
A number of users, of which User:Horton11 is the most prominent, have been writing articles at an amazing pace. The site administration has been unable to keep up. Of all the articles these users have created, only a few have been controled. They're often not finished or lacking in style and language. Mostly, they're left "unwikified". The most significant problem, though, is that their content is not adapted to Lovia. As you know, it is site regulation that all articles MUST CONCERN LOVIA. The spy articles were a good example of non-Lovian content: Lovia does even have a "secret service" they claim to have worked for. (The spy articles have been marked for deletion.)

Should, and could, the community do something about this? Should we perhaps stop article creation for a while until we cleaned up and finished all these new articles? Opinions please.

@BastardRoyale: Opinions, not speeches. 06:01, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, we should at least have a "wikification" template, so we know which pages still need to be fixed. Trash should be deleted. Horton11 should realize that his edits aren't really OK and if he doesn't realize that he's on the right wiki here. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:06, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know. The thing is we need support from the community. Also, describing in concreto what's wrong with his edits - and those of his "friends" - isn't always as easy.
 * Let's make it: Template:Wikify. 15:29, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, you got my support :) I think structure and data coherence (gegevensovereenkomst?) is probably the most important for the wiki contents. For the attractiveness we need spelling and lay-out fixed, but those aren't my best points, so I can only help a bit with that :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:50, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I totally agree. If I would give you rollback rights, would you be likely to use them to revert some rubbish? 15:52, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Which rubbish? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:53, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Vandalism, wrong spelling "corrections", etc. 16:00, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah ok, that's OK :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:10, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, then that'll be the first thing I'll propose to the site council :) 16:37, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Good jónk :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:33, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * yep. Marcus Villanova 19:28, October 1, 2010 (UTC)

"Systematic sockpuppeting"
The administrators of Wikination have always been suspicious about sockpuppets, because they can be very useful (and therefore manipulative) on this wiki. We know some of our (valued) users have had sockpuppets in the past. We also know some still do, and still use them.

Now, there's one instant of "systematic" abuse that we are aware of. One of the users has abused several accounts (more than 7 and probably even more of which we are not aware), using different PCs to avoid IP similarity. Now, I contacted the Central Wikia a while ago about this problem. They told me we - that is the site administrators - have the full right to block users and to bust sockpuppet networks without "proof" (i.e. IPs), but with strong clues and potential danger to the website.

I have tried several times to put it (the evidence) all together, but that has proven a difficult task. It is scattered across wikis, going as far as Wikipedia, the Dutch Wikistad and numerous Wikias I have even never visited. It is substantial and convincing.

As I said, Wikia authorized the administrators to act in good faith and bust them. Nevertheless, I would like to hear some opinions from you. Blocking all the sockpuppets, and temporarily suspending the sockpuppet master's editing rights, may have far-reaching consequences. It is, however, for the good of the wiki. Users who abuse sockpuppets to control votes and to antagonize political movements, do not contribute to the wiki. They create a dangerous illusion that can fall apart at any time. 07:19, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * He has multiple Ip adresses. He also did have sockpuppets llike Pharaoh (at llamada).
 * Hints:
 * Bombastic writing style
 * Always wants to be in the positive spotlight
 * mythologically nonsense
 * I know who you mean. He can be abbreviated as PM Pierlot McCrooke 07:56, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd say block them if they don't work together with other users and aren't willing to change their sockpuppet habits. Provocative users are not useful in my opinion. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:58, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * The thing is that sockpuppets can always be useful to the site. Some sockpuppets actually do great work, I believe. But it is against site rules. Also, most sockpuppets seem to be here for other purposes: election fraud, political spectacle, etc. 08:09, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pff.. Difficult.. I think election fraud isn't something we'd like to see. And political spectacle has led to blocking users in the past. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:12, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * It is indeed a difficult matter. It is hard to prove, but it's harder to ignore the leads. 08:15, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Block seems best option. It would be a good signal to other potential sockpuppeteers. Martha Van Ghent 13:14, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, if it was, we probably wouldn't have any sockpuppets around anymore... Dimi has blocked tens of sockpuppets and also their masters in the past. But I don't believe it really works repulsively. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:41, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * First of all, let's make a list of (suspected) sock puppets. Am I right that you guys are referring to Drabo and Pierius Magnus? On Llamadawiki we did an IP-check and saw that they don't share an IP. Both IPs were, however, in the same province in the Netherlands, and we can therefore conclude that he possibly uses two computers. I have three at home, and probably most of you guys have also an extra one, so... SjorskingmaWikistad 07:12, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's right. In one e-mail, Pierius revealed to me that he used another computer to use User:William Johnson (more about that later): "de William Johnson account heb ik aangemaakt op de pc van een kameraad van me, zodat het IP zou afwijken van het mijne." (16 januari 2010) 07:33, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

List

 * 1) Drabo13
 * 2) Pierius Magnus
 * 3) Pharao (Llamada only)
 * 4) AdolfsManholt (Harvian Islands only)

The Pierius Case
I was indeed referring to Pierius/Drabo and his sockpuppets. This is a list of users of which I am fairly certain that they're linked to Pierius:


 * 1) User:Pierius Magnus - the "real guy"
 * 2) User:86.89.146.118 - his IP
 * 3) User:Drabo13 - a sockpuppet he created to put his own love for the apartheid regime in (check Wikipedia), and to antagonize his "own communist movement"
 * 4) User:Dani Yusef Ali-Baba - Pierius said to me in an e-mail: "de dani yusef account was van een vriend van me, ik heb de account al in november 2009 overgenomen maar heb dit niet doorgegeven met het plan om "gebruik" te maken van de dubbele accounts. ik dacht dat ik ermee weg zou komen vanwege de twee verschillende ip-adressen." (rough translation: "that account belonged to a frind of mine, until I took it over in November 2009"
 * 5) User:William Johnson - Pierius confessed to me that this was a sockpuppet of his; also, William Johnson "himself" said on Wikination to be the same person as "Dani Yusef", so that makes sense.
 * 6) User:Discutie
 * 7) User:ArminBlanche - Wikia confirmed sockpuppetry
 * 8) User:BastardRoyale - When ArminBlanche failed in being a good sockie, Pierius reincarnated that figure in the now wildly popular "BastardRoyale". In style, he is exactly Pierius. Bombastic speeches and all. He shows the typical traits of a bad Pierius sockie: joining a political movement against his own (Drabo), admiring the concept of royalty, being scandal-loving, mixing informal styles with bombastic populism, etc. As we all see, BastardRoyale just took over the status of User:Pierius Magnus as Pierius' main account.

Personally, I am very, very strongly inclined to think that Dietrich Honecker was a puppet of his too. On the other hand, there's way less evidence to back this up, so I'm not including him in the list. Other people from the IGP past are very likely also linked to either Dietrich or Pierius (or both, if I'm right).

Evidence that link together the users mentioned above?
 * Wikipedia: past of relentless sockpuppetry
 * Wikipedia: interest for the Apartheid regime (~Drabo)
 * Motifs:
 * monarchy and aristocracy ("Baron")
 * communism (Pierius, Bastard) versus extreme-rightism or conservativism (Drabo, William Johnson)
 * bombastic writing style (all sockies)
 * the denial of being/having a sockpuppet: he does it every time and goes quite far in doing it
 * ambiguous relationship with Pierlot
 * knowledge of Dutch, or Dutch-influenced writing in English
 * the ability to switch sides constantly in a debate
 * He has confessed to at least two sockies.
 * Wikia has confirmed at least one other sockie.
 * etc.

Please add more details, sockpuppets, evidence, etc. underneath. 07:33, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * BTW: Only sockpuppets on Wikination requiring blocking. You may give us the names of the other ones, but we first of all need those which he USED HERE. 07:33, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, when I saw the wikipedia account page a few months ago, I had a sort of mental breakthrough. All pieces fell together, and I suddenly realized that Magnus was the sock puppeteer. SjorskingmaWikistad 07:41, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Brenda Young (crappy logo making, fascism), Meliander Chlionides (Bombastic) Pharao (Confessed sockie), AdolfsManholt (suspected sockie of Drabo, and therefore Magnus) Unlawful (same story) Nieuwe Start (confessed sockie) SjorskingmaWikistad 07:43, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Same here. Cmon, what are the odds!? Which Wikipedia user has a substantial interest in (and support of) the South African apartheid regime? Knowing this, it all ties together. I suppose it's a bit like this:
 * Pierius has one account and does just fine.
 * Pierius needs another one for a political purpose, or just wants to make one for fun. He uses some of his not so well known characteristics and enlargens them within the "personality" of his new sockie.
 * This process goes on for a while; he gets more sockies as the time goes by. Some of them are busted though, and that's when he creates new ones. The transition between ArminBlanche and Bastard is the textbook example of this process.
 * In the end, there are so many different users, all sort of linked to Pierius, but most with specific traits that Pierius doesn't seem to have. The thing is to think deeper: those traits are Pierius', but he suppresses them in Pierius, and over-represents them in his sockies.
 * 07:48, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * (May I edit here?) I already thought magnus was using different computers. I dont think magnus ha created Dietrich or Brenda Pierlot McCrooke 07:47, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes you may. 07:48, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Soclkies: Pierlot McCrooke 07:49, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indiaantje
 * Batulla
 * Kutnegertjesaidslijers (name may be not fully correct)
 * JezusOnzeRedder (according to wikistaff those accounts werre linked to Bastard)
 * Some Pierlot is evil 666 accounts
 * On wikipedia he spamds people that they have to translate Pier Gerlofs Donia's article. Pierius user name \ is latin name for this figure. This spam was a bi9t like that Drabo trial-spam Pierlot McCrooke 08:51, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * You just keep trying, don't you guys? I can assure you you got it all wrong, I have nothing to hide and nothing to do with these people. And how could you even think for one minute I could be Honecker? It's ridiculous. If you suspect electoral fraud the savest thing to do is just prevent all users you suspect of having fraudulous intentions from voting or participating until after the elections. Dr. Magnus 09:14, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you have a problem Magnus. You deny the whole time, but you know yourself you maintain dozens of sock puppets. SjorskingmaWikistad 09:19, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * It is you who has a problem. You see ghosts, you hallucinate, see things that aren't there. Haven't you guys been taking your pills lately, or are you perhaps on drugs? Just take a chillpill and relax dude. Dr. Magnus 09:25, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you better confess. SjorskingmaWikistad 09:28, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Look at you, what are you, Miss Marple? The Pink Panther, trying to solve the mysterious case of Dr. Magnus? Its really pathetic, you should know. Dr. Magnus 09:30, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pathetic is your denial, Magnus. And by the way: there's little mystery left to us. The only ones who don't seem to know what you've been up to, are you and your sockpups. 09:35, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, I'm kind of shocked and sad to read and find out about all of this, since I get/got along quite well with him on Wikistad (he might 've gotten a bit carried away with the whole second civil war business, but who didn't?). Concerning User:Mellisánder_Chilonides though, I'm pretty sure he's not just another Magnus' sockpuppet; his style too might be considered 'bombastic' (as Dimi and Sjors write), but in my humble opinion it ánd his interests are still very different from that of Magnus. K_gitaar.png Echo cho 09:37, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've also had moments during which I really appreciated Magnus as a person. Really. It's sad that we have to do this now.
 * Concerning Chilonides: I think you might be right. I don't know her (him?) enough to have an opinion about her. 09:41, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Melisander is very Magnusesque. I have seen her (his) talk from talkpage~s Pierlot McCrooke 09:44, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sure my writing reminds others of someone else as well, but that doesn't necessarily make me a sockpuppet. K_gitaar.png Echo cho 09:58, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * It really makes me feel so special you liked me as a person! To bad we can't be friend anymore.
 * The worst thing is that you say I am the same person as Honecker & Drabo. I am, by all accounts, not a nazi or a racist nor will I ever be one. It saddens me my brother compare my to those figures. Dr. Magnus 09:50, October 3, 2010 (UTC)