Forum:Second Chamber

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The Second Chamber is only opened (for vote) to Members of the Congress, elected in the Federal Elections. While issues and motions can be discussed in the Forum:First Chamber, there are voted in here. When a proposal isn't accepted, it can go back to the First Chamber for some adjustments.

Election Plan
We currently don't have a popularly elected Congress. This brings along some issues. First of all, we very much need to hold new, democratic elections. Both federal and state. Another problem concerns the voting in the periode before a new Congress is elected. In order to be able to move along without a democratic Congress, we'll have to do some things in a not so constitutional fashion. I'm sorry for that.

I propose this voting system as the temporary system of Congress, until elections are held:
 * 1) The First Provisional Congress (Alexandru, Lars, Oos Wes, Doctor Magnus, Pierlot (absent) and me) will be able to vote.
 * 2) Any other citizen not in the Congress will be able to vote. Votes of these citizens only count half.
 * 3) If the turnout of a vote is more than 40% and less than 60% PRO, then the ruling monarch will have the right to cast a vote worth 10% of the total turnout. This procedure has one sole goal: being able to make things happen that are necessary to hold elections and restore the Lovian state. After elections will be held (February 1 the new Congress will be inaugurated), any law/regulation made this way shall be open to debate.
 * 4) There will be no amendments to the Constitution from November 9 '09 to January 31 '10.

Content
According to the Constitution, federal elections are to be held every year on the same date. Therefore, I suggest we hold federal elections in January - like in 2008 - and inaugurate the Congress and Prime Minister February 1, the so-called Inauguration Day.

State elections will be organized in the same period. I very much hope there will be goodwilling candidates for each state.

Elections will occur according to the Constitution - no exceptions.

Talk
Comments.
 * I now realize this proposal should be in the Second Chamber...  21:09, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Vote
Please mention whether you are a Congressman of the First Provisional Congress (FPC) or a citizen (CIT).

PRO

 * - FPC, 13:13, November 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * - FPC, --O u WTB 13:48, November 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * - FPC, --Bucurestean 15:54, November 11, 2009 (UTC) (however I doubt if the system will work fluently) Looked at the wrong title, but why a power vacuum till February?
 * No real vacuum - just a less filled space. 18:45, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, I understand what you're trying to say --Bucurestean 20:27, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * - FPC, --Lars Washington 16:05, November 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * - CIT, --Ligency 09:55, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * - FPC, Dr. Magnus 10:41, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * - CIT, -- 13:03, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

ABSTENTION
✅ unanimously - 08:28, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * 08:28, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

Primary Education Act
This is a proposal to regulate some aspects of the primary education in Lovia. Primary education is education from the age of 6 to 12, and is provided in primary or elementary schools.

Content
I would like to add this article to the Federal Law:


 * Article 10 - Primary Education Act
 * Primary education is the educating of children in a school or privately, by qualified teachers, in order to provide them with the apt knowledge and skills to go to secondary education.
 * Primary education is provided in primary or elementary schools, unless the child is taught privately.
 * Primary schools can be operated privately, that is by an individual or an organization, or publicly, that is by a neighborhood, hamlet, town, city, state or by the federal state.
 * Primary schools have to appoint teachers that are qualified to teach the subjects they are asked to teach.
 * All primary school teachers must have obtained a high school or academic qualification.
 * Primary schools that are operated privately can turn down pupils only in special cases, these being the unability to provide education to a pupil with a particular problem, or if a pupil has proven to be unable to behave according to school regulations. In no other cases, pupils shall be denied access.
 * Primary schools provide general and basic education to a child.
 * These subjects should be taught at least three hours per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * English language, including reading, writing, listening and speaking skills.
 * Arts, crafts and music.
 * These subjects should be taught at least two hours per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * Mathematics.
 * Everyday Life, including introductions to relations, food, health, etc.
 * Physical education.
 * These subjects should be taught at least one hour per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * History of Lovia and the world.
 * Geography of Lovia and the world.
 * Science, including introductions to the natural sciences and basic applications.
 * Languages of the world, including introductions to Spanish, French, Dutch, Limburgish, Romanian and the Lovian dialects.
 * Computer class.
 * Primary schools are free to choose to provide more classes of any of these subjects, or to provide other subjects considered valuable, in order to provide twenty-two hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * There shall be no doctrinal classes in primary schools.
 * In a course called 'Religions of the world', children may be taught about religions. If the school wishes to teach this subject, all major religions should be brought to attention, as well as a non-religious attitude.
 * Primary schools and their teachers may not try to convince children of a certain religious point of view, nor can they make any pupil exercise a religious act if not wanted by the pupil and/or the parents.
 * These rules apply for the arrangement of the timetable:
 * A break of at least 10 minutes is compulsory between every two hours; more often is allowed.
 * There shall be no classes on Sunday.
 * There shall be no classes between 7 PM and 7 AM.
 * There must be a lunch break every day, of at least an hour, between noon and 2 PM.
 * Private education, by a qualified teacher, can be provided. In this case, the same rules apply.
 * Every child residing in Lovia has to receive six years of primary education, beginning in the schoolyear during which the child will reach the age of 6 years.
 * Only if a qualified psychologist and the pupil's teacher find it appropriate for the pupil to skip a schoolyear and continue education with older pupils, and if the parents agree on this, the pupil may skip a schoolyear.
 * Every pupil has to receive primary education until the schoolyear during which the pupil will reach the age of 12, except in the case mentioned above.
 * Primary schools that do not provide the kind of education described in this article, the Secretary of Education or the Royal Educational Aims Council can decide to shut down the school until the service provided do qualify. In the meanwhile the Department of Culture, Heritage and Education must provide education to the pupils of that school.
 * The Royal Educational Aims Council is a council under the Department of Culture, Heritage and Education, consisting of five educational specialists who decide on the secondary education curriculum, and who can close a school if it does not qualify.
 * Each of these five institutions and people select one member of the council: the Secretary of Culture, Heritage and Education, the Prime Minister, the ruling monarch, the Rector of the Blackburn University as representative of the higher educational system, and the Secretary of Welfare as the pupil's and student's welfare watchdog.

Secondary Education Act
This is a proposal to regulate some aspects of the secondary education in Lovia. Secondary education is education from the age of 12 to 18, and is provided in high schools (or, less commonly: secondary schools).

Content
I would like to add this article to the Federal Law:


 * Article 11 - Secondary Education Act
 * Secondary education is the educating of adolescents in a school or privately, by qualified teachers, in order to provide them with the apt knowledge and skills to lead a life in a modern society and in order to be able to continue studying at college or university.
 * Secondary education is provided in high schools or secondary schools, unless the adolescent is taught privately.
 * Secondary schools can be operated privately, that is by an individual or an organization, or publicly, that is by a neighborhood, hamlet, town, city, state or by the federal state.
 * Secondary schools have to appoint teachers that are qualified to teach the subjects they are asked to teach.
 * All secondary school teachers must have obtained an academic qualification.
 * Secondary schools that are operated privately can turn down pupils only in special cases, these being the unability to provide education to a student with a particular problem, or if a student has proven to be unable to behave according to school regulations. In no other cases, students shall be denied access.
 * Secondary schools can provide different sorts of education, these being:
 * Secondary Theoretical Program: General, theoretical education, aiming to provide the student the knowledge and skills to enroll college or university.
 * Secondary Technical Program: General, technical education, aiming to provide the student the knowledge and skills to enroll college or university, to be ready to lead a private business, and to perform technical work.
 * Secondary Professional Program: General, professional education, aiming to provide the studetn the practical knowledge and skills to enroll college or a professional school and to be ready to have a specific, technical profession.
 * The subjects that should be taught, are chosen by the Secretary of Education and Royal Education Aims Council, and have to be in accordance with the different programs and the general aims.
 * Secondary schools are free to choose to provide more classes of any of these subjects, or to provide other subjects considered valuable, in order to provide twenty-two hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * Doctrinal classes may be provided in secondary schools by the school itself, if wished.
 * There shall be no more than one hour of doctrinal class per week.
 * The content of doctrinal classes, in which the teacher teaches a particular religious or political world view, can be chosen by the school and teacher.
 * There shall be no doctrinal classes about extremist views; that is: no far-right, far-left, extremist Islam, extremist Christianity, fascist, violent or extreme nationalist views can be taught. If needed, the Royal Educational Aims Council and the Secretary of Culture, Heritage and Education can dismiss a doctrinal course.
 * A student is allowed not to follow a doctrinal course provided by a secondary school, if he or she doesn't want to take this course. In order to skip these classes, the student has to notify the school direction and stay on school property during the courses.
 * A course called 'Religions of the world', or any course similar to it, is not considered a doctrinal course.
 * No tests and exams shall be taken for these courses.
 * These rules apply for the arrangement of the timetable:
 * A break of at least 10 minutes is compulsory between every two hours; more often is allowed.
 * There shall be no classes on Sunday.
 * There shall be no classes between 7 PM and 7 AM.
 * There must be a lunch break every day, of at least an hour, between noon and 2 PM.
 * Private education, by a qualified teacher, can be provided. In this case, the same rules apply.
 * Every child residing in Lovia has to receive six years of secondary education, beginning in the schoolyear after which the adolescent has finished his primary education succesfully.
 * Only if a qualified psychologist and the student's teacher find it appropriate for the student to skip a schoolyear and continue education with older students, and if the parents agree on this, the student may skip a schoolyear.
 * Secondary schools that do not provide the kind of education described in this article, the Secretary of Culture, Heritage and Education or the Royal Educational Aims Council can decide to shut down the school until the service provided do qualify. In the meanwhile the Department of Culture, Heritage and Education must provide education to the student of that school.

Talk
I want both proposals to be voted together; as they belong together. If you don't like a specific part of it, don't just vote against, but help us to make it better. 21:09, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * This looks just perfect to me! Though I thought you wanted to refer to the Department of Culture, Heritage and Education (I changed the link), or do you intend to split this department? Lars Washington 08:59, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right. It would be better like that. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll change that immediately. 11:24, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Just to note that I have fixed all secondary spelling mistakes. It is meant to spell secondary not secundary.Ligency 14:07, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Primary education proposal: I most like the idea of 'Everyday Life' and 'Languages of the world' classes. And it's also a good thing no religion classes shall be allowed. Should there not be at least two hours of physical education per week? 13:08, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Secondary education: Fine! 13:16, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe you're right. I'll add one hour :) 14:53, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Ok. --O u WTB 14:40, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Haven't read it yet, but no religion classes? Isn't it important to have a common knowledge (algemene kennis) of the 5 world religions? The Western culture (thus even the Lovian), for example, has uninterruptedly been influenced by Christianity. I have the same opinion that these lessons shouldn't no indoctrinate or something, everybody should have the right to make his own choice, but I certainly do think it's important to know the points of view of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and atheists too. It's good to understand a couple of things, for example that not all muslims are terrorists because they shout Allahoe akbar 5 times a day... --Bucurestean 18:57, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Have read it now... think it's OK. --Bucurestean 19:04, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I hope it is :). Indeed, classes on the religions of the world are in fact preferable, as opposed to doctrinal courses. I'll move it to the 2nd Chamber tomorrow morning. 20:55, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Voting
VOTING OCCURS ONLY FOR THE TWO PROPOSALS AS A WHOLE.
 * Don't forget: citizens can vote as well! 15:23, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

PRO

 * - FPC, 07:59, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * - FPC, --O u WTB 10:28, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * - FPC, --Bucurestean 11:38, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * - FPC, --Lars Washington 15:51, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right in time  15:58, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * - CIT, -- 22:22, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * - CIT, --Ligency 13:58, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * - FPC - Dr. Magnus 13:52, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Content
Abolishing Article 3, the Patriot Act from the Federal Law, which was written by Arthur Jefferson and was accepted in the Second Chamber on February 17, 2008. It has scarcely been used at all, and ends up being a waste of tax money on something ineffective.


 * Article 3 - Patriot Act
 * According to the Patriot Act, the Department of Finance foresees financial support for companies and organizations using patriotic terms or symbols in their name or logo.
 * Possible words or symbols are:
 * The use of these words in the name: Lovia (or shorter forms Lovi and Lov) or pine.
 * The use of these images in the logo: pine trees, a field divided in a navy blue and red part, the Lovian flag itself or other combinations of the national colors.
 * The use of these words in the slogan: Lovia, Lovely Lovia or the Promised Land.
 * Combinations of these symbols or words will not be additionally supported.
 * In case these words or symbols are used in a negative way, the Department will -understandably- not support these companies or organizations in any way.
 * The Department of Finance will create a list of the supported companies and will provide support by making publicity on its own pages. Also, the Department will put a template on the pages of the supported companies and organizations, making clear the Department supports this company or organization.

Voting
All Congressmen and citizens can vote.

PRO

 * - FPC,  08:39, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * - FPC, --O u WTB 09:00, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * - FPC, --Lars Washington 10:42, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * - Why the name, patriot act, anyway? I know about the US Patriot Act, don't really like it, therefore I don't really like the name! :D 86.89.146.118 10:54, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Not signed in (are you a citizen?) --Bucurestean 12:07, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, sign in please. And this proposal is about abolishing the existing Patriot Act. As a MOTC we expect you to read it before you vote, so there's no need to dislike something because of the name. 13:23, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * - FPC, --Bucurestean 12:07, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * - CIT, -- 18:52, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * - CIT, --Ligency 13:58, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * - FPC Dr. Magnus 13:51, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Alcohol Consumption Regulations Act
Proposed article to be added to the Federal Law, concerning alcohol consumption. A poll made clear a majority of the Lovians supported alcohol consumption legislation. -- 14:50, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Content (Bill)
Article 12 - Alcohol Consumption Regulations Act
 * 1) The term "alcoholic beverage" covers every drink that contains ethanol, commonly known as alcohol. Alcohol is a psychoactive drug that has a depressant effect. A high blood alcohol reduces attention and slows reaction speed. Alcoholic beverages can be addictive.
 * 2) Alcoholic beverages shall not be sold to persons who have not yet reached the age of 16 years.
 * 3) Both the buyer and the person selling the alcoholic beverage to a person who has not yet reached the age of 16 years are considered to be violating the Federal Law.
 * 4) Spirits (unsweetened, distilled, alcoholic beverages that have an alcohol content of at least 20% ABV) shall not be sold to persons who have not yet reached the age of 18 years.
 * 5) Both the buyer and the person selling the alcoholic beverage to a minor are considered to be violating the Federal Law.
 * 6) The use of alcoholic beverages is forbidden by the Alcohol Regulations Act of the Federal Law, supported by Congress:
 * 7) In all governmental buildings, including federal properties, state properties and properties of the city, town, neighborhood, or hamlet.
 * 8) In all educational institutions during class hours, unless the purpose of a particular course is to educate about alcoholic beverages.
 * 9) The use of alcoholic beverages in this case is restricted to the absolute minimum. Courses will be dismissed by the Royal Educational Aims Council when this law is violated.
 * 10) By any person whose professional occupation it is to transport other people. No alcoholic beverages shall be consumed during the period starting two hours before the job officially commences, and until the moment the job officially ends.
 * 11) By any person whose professional occupation it is to safeguard other people's security. No alcoholic beverages shall be consumed during the period starting two hours before the job officially commences, and until the moment the job officially ends.
 * 12) By any person during job hours.
 * 13) Every Lovian person, company, or organization who owns or manages a building, room, or public place has the right to prohibit the use of alcoholic beverages within that space, supported by Local Police authorities in case of disobedience.
 * 14) A high blood alcohol content is referred to as drunkenness.
 * 15) Each person operating a vehicle while under the influece of alcohol violates the Federal Law.
 * 16) When a driver's blood alcohol concentration is measured to be 0.05% or more at the moment of control and within half an hour of the moment when this person was halted by police authorities, this person is considered to have driven under the influence of alcohol, and has thus violated the Federal Law.
 * 17) A person transporting other people as a professional occupation may not have a blood alcohol concentration of 0.01% during job hours.
 * 18) Public drunkenness is prohibited by the Federal Law.
 * 19) Each person in a public space whose behavior is uncommon and who does not seem to be able to think clearly and act accordingly and whose blood alcoholic concentration is measured to be 0.08% or more, is considered to be under the influence of alcohol, and can be arrested by police authorities.

Talk
I'll repeat what I said earlier: "It's balanced, correct and moderate. Nice work. Oos Wes' remark on gradualization is reasonable indeed, and it's a good thing to incorporate this in the bill." If I were you, I wouldn't waste too much time in the 1st Chamber. 16:44, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

PRO

 * - FPC, 18:15, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * - CIT, --O u WTB 18:23, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * - FPC --Bucurestean 18:25, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * - CIT, 11:36, November 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * --Lars 15:58, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

ABSTENTION
ILl censor it McCrooke 18:38, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Dimitri please rein vent the the neutral template end option. I dont know oft this act helps McCrooke 18:26, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't, it's unconsitutional. 18:26, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Then ill propose something McCrooke 18:27, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * You can't: no constitional amendments until we have a legally elected Congress. 18:29, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * What is miss with that? McCrooke 18:32, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * We chose not to amend the Constitution to be sure no undemocratic changes to the nation's most important legal document are being made. 18:34, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Thta vote option isnt undemocratic. Are you bang for for some people? McCrooke 18:35, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't, but it is provided for by the Constitution, about which I said we can't change it now. You see? 18:36, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * I see. Guess you may block Pierlot (personal attack). --Bucurestean 18:36, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * The Marius thing? 18:37, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, just block 'm. He won't edit usefully anyway. --Bucurestean 18:39, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * [puzzled] 18:39, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess he means this kind of ILI. Very, very clever thinking of our ``enfant terrible`` --Lars 19:55, November 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you reeeaaally think so? --Bucurestean 20:25, November 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure ^^ --Lars 11:08, November 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * Haha . Lars, would you please vote on this law as well? Thanks. 15:26, November 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * I do have a problem with: ...No alcoholic beverages shall be consumed during the period starting two hours before the job officially commences, and until the moment the job officially ends., this means he still might be drunk from the night before. Maybe by having a breath control test prior to driving, this issue should be solved. And (sorry) another issue, what about drug abuse (medicine or other)? The result is/can be the same so maybe we could adapt this, in order to close all small backdoors. --Lars 15:44, November 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's like this: bus drivers are not allowed to drink during the period described in the law; but they are also not allowed to have 1 (!) promille of alcohol in their blood. (A person transporting other people as a professional occupation may not have a blood alcohol concentration of 0.01% during job hours.) So, you are right about the tests, but they're anyway not allowed to have 1 promille - so drinking is not an option. See?
 * There will be a separate drug abuse law soon :) 15:50, November 29, 2009 (UTC)