Forum:First Chamber

__NEWSECTIONLINK__ In Lovia, Congress is the national legislative body and the most powerful branch of government. The First Chamber is one of the two chambers of Congress, in which the Members of the Congress propose bills and debate them. The Second Chamber is where they are eventually voted. Paradoxically, Lovia does not have a bicameral parliament: there is only one group of MOTCs that both debates and votes the proposals. For the current composition of Congress, see this.

As prescribed by Article 6 of the Constitution, all Lovian citizens "may write and propose motions to the Federal Law", that "are presented to the Members of the Congress in the First Chamber." The MOTCs' duty is to "read the motion and form a personal opinion about it. In order to obtain the support of a majority of Members of the Congress, changes may be proposed in the First Chamber." If a majority is likely to be found, the proposer will move the bill to the Second Chamber for a vote.

The First Chamber is not a popular assembly where all citizens can express their personal interests. Polling the population ought to happen outside of Congress.

016. Official note
To all Lovian citizens: you may nominate yourself as a candidate for the position of one of three Supreme Court Judges. No party may submit more than one candidate, so discuss amongst yourselves. I also advise (but not order) you not to use your main characters. --Semyon 19:46, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

Also: if you plan to bring a case to court then please don't nominate yourself, because legally there's a conflict of interest and you will have to step down, and there'll be new elections and it'll all be rather annoying. :P --Semyon 19:51, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

You could ask someone else OOCly to do it for you, as long as you remained neutral. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:19, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

I know, but I think people will prefer to do it themselves. --Semyon 08:12, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

I think I will nominate Lars Washington. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 10:57, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I nominate Rico Wasabi. A little known fact about Mr. Wasabi is that he has a short-lived career as a judge in North-Korea during the late 1990s. The glorious First Consul of Rome 12:22, April 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Wasabi, Washington and An (Bill) are good judges. An is also the head of the supreme court in Brunant. Wabba The I 14:39, April 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * But Bill An was not a good judge and is very temperamental and corrupt. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:29, April 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * We have a pretty diverse team of judges now - the expierence of Washington, Wasabi as a link to the asian community. Now all we need is a woman. How about... Martha Van Ghent? The glorious First Consul of Rome 10:19, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, what we need is a leftist. Though, I suppose Martha works out as a leftist. Another option would be Alyssa. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 10:55, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * So we will have Washington, Wasabi, Alyssa\Martha, and ...? The glorious First Consul of Rome 12:30, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify: after at least three candidates have been nominated, we vote for them, and the three with the highest number of votes become judges. Alyssa/Martha need an active user to control them - Horton perhaps? --Semyon 12:41, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

I would nominate someone but I think I'm going to be doing a lot of law enforcement so I won't so there's no corruption in the system! :L Kunarian 14:48, April 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * I support for Lars Washington, Alyssa C. Red, Martha Van Ghent, Rico Wasabi and maybe George Matthews? We can also create a judge? Wabba The I 16:58, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

To reiterate, since no-one seems to take any notice :P - every judge needs to have a user behind it, and it's not helpful to give a list of random names without some sort of indication of which users control them. So far, I understand these are the candidates: I can't (yet) include Van Ghent/Alyssa. Also, I'm kind of hoping Oos will nominate someone. --Semyon 16:52, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Lars Washington (User:TimeMaster)
 * Rico Wasabi (User:The Master's Voice)
 * George Matthews (User:Wabba the I)

We need a leftist. Marcus and Horton should be asked if they will judge. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:05, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

I already did. :) --Semyon 17:07, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Am I George Matthews or what? Wabba The I 17:27, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

I nominate Antonia Tilly, but under my control. If I get accepted I'll make a detailed page. HORTON11 : •  20:15, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

No problem. I'll come with a name soon :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 04:41, April 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, let's make this happen asap! We need more judges. The glorious First Consul of Rome 20:52, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I'm just going to stick to an Oceana name :P I think John Paul Hrádske will do for now :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:13, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

017. Budget
Anyone want to discuss the budget? Check out Department of Finance/Budget for a start. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:22, March 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:38, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

Well, no one cares, so I guess I'll have to wake people on their talk pages. . . but I'll put a proposal up to vote on soon enough. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:51, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

018. Local Police
What do you guys think about reinstating Local Police? Would simply un-repealing the Local Police Act be sufficient? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:18, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

No i think you either need to reinstate governors and such and then get local police or nothing at all. There would be confusion if you just did one or the other. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:07, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

We do have governors... The last elections were just a failure due to inactivity. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:26, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

I'm fully pro the state police, but we do need to reinstate the state law as well then... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 04:45, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

I fully support the idea, of course, this would mean sacrificing some powers on the ministry of defences side to governers but co-operation would work fantastically and be a good way to get things moving in Lovia. Kunarian 11:32, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why we need state law to have state police. We can make the rules here in Congress, and then the Governor can choose how they want to fit those rules with the state police. I'm also opposed to state law because that would be like the President (of the US, for example) writing laws without getting them approved by someone else, like Congress (partially because there is no one else). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:28, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

In the US there are State Capitols that pass law and it's all democratic. I would like to see states have more power; perhaps we could just create secondary characters to serve in state legislatures. That way it becomesmore democratic. HORTON11 : •  17:31, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

States could simply have state elections with their own group of 100 representives, I had an idea once that this would work and you would have a voting system similar to the national elections, your first house would equal three votes in the state it was in, the second house would be two and the third house would be one vote. Then you'd have the state candidate with the most support becoming the governer there, it would make politics even more interesting and would create more activity on a state level. Kunarian 17:38, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

100 is too much for the state level. Also a much simpler solution would just be to allow governors to enact their own laws, of course in compliance with federal and the constitution. And if they try to pass something violating that, congress should be able to veto such laws or even impeach him. HORTON11 : •  17:48, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

We should not impeach democratically elected officials nor should congress go around vetoing them, the reason they were elected was to give states a more flexible ability in making laws and dealing with their own problems, vetoing and impeaching nulifies most of this. If 100 is too much maybe 50 or even just 25 or a multiple of three, it would be better in my opinion if we found a way to delegate more legistlative power to the states. Kunarian 18:01, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

@TM: the entire idea of the state police is that the state police enforces the local state's laws... Otherwise it would just be a local chapter of the national police (which is exactly what it is now). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:57, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

You can't exactly enforce the official symbols of a state. What exactly would they enforce if we did have state law? I have no problem with them being a chapter of the federal police. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:10, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Read the Oceana State Law, it was much more than that (most of these laws have simply been lost after the State Law was abolished). Especially in Oceana, there were plans to make a real law of it but we didn't have enough time. We were given a choice: states without power or no states at all. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:13, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

The entire idea of state legislatures set up that way was my idea, just sayin. But in any case Iove to see the support as it isbrought up here. Marcus/Michael Villanova 09:56, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

No, actually we already had state laws long before you all were here. At the same time that the last states were "inhabited" on the site (Seven and Oceana), Dimitri launched the state law idea. Only two laws ever got contents, but still, it could've been a wonderful thing. Unfortunately, it didn't work out because the level of democracy in the creation of the law was way too low. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:57, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Well, what I don't see is why we can't just have a state police in each state to do everyday things, and no state law. This would be better since we now have ten times the former population, so more officers will be needed and therefore a more branched organization. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 11:12, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

TM, we already have that: Federal Police. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:43, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

We could change those to local police. Wasn't that added to replace local police anyway? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:53, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

No. Local police should be reserved for when the state laws can be put into effect. This might take a long time (with current activity being low), but for now I want a clear division between the terms "Local Chapter of the Federal Police" and "Local State Police". --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:29, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Well, we could implement State Law, though I'd prefer that we use a state legislature, like Marcus's idea. I just don't like a governor to be writing laws and enforcing them by themself. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:06, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

@Oos - No i knew that just i meant my proposal for renstating state law and adopting the state councils. And i'm also glad the TM is expressing some support for it yay! Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:33, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Serious discussion on this
Another major thing with the states is how much power do we devolve back to the states. I feel like policing, census taking, additional taxing, job and social ventures, and (when we get it) an NHS. So yeah i'd like that more forums for them and alot of discussion and would create activity by making more, what we like, politics. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:51, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Census taking and the NHS should be with the federal government. What do you mean by "job and social ventures"? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:55, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Well A) we haven't had a census so to my knowlege we still have a poulation of about 20000 B)NHS should be handeled in part to the states for better and more accurate health care to the citizens and C) meaning would we devolve Social issues to the states and D) allowing states to build public things like bridges and parks. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:43, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

A) We will have a population of 200,000. 20,000 is nothing--less than other microstates. B) How how healthcare become "better" and "more accurate"? I think a standardized national healthcare service would be better. C) Don't really care either way. Seems fine the way it is. D) They already can and do. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:01, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

So yeah no it's 20000, The page Lovia statesd 20000 and we haven't changed the census numbers or created a law to change the formula. Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:41, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we have to have a law on the census. (You have to admit, a government passing a law saying what the population is is rather 1984ish. :P) But I agree that we haven't officially agreed on the changes, judging by the Census Reform forum. --Semyon 14:10, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

019. Novosevensk Airport
I suggest we open it as a local airport which has connections to seven airport. Pierlot McCrooke 18:26, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I suggest we don't, as the Seven State Airport is right nearby. Same thing with the Adoha airport. With a population of 220,000, we have more than enough airports. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:10, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not every airport has to be like the freggin' JFK, right? We could have smaller ones that are basically little more then a single landing strip. The glorious First Consul of Rome 20:38, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright. But I think one State Airport for Seven would be quite sufficient, since the islands of the state are hooked to each other with bridges and ferries. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:49, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * @TM - We agreed on that population of 220,000? I don't think so. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:10, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * We did. You may not remember, but we talked about updating it and decided on a pure logic system, with around 220,000 citizens. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:58, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * @Timey: Which bridges? Anyway if those bridges exist, they were build without permssion I think Pierlot McCrooke 05:22, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * @TM: Officially, there are no bridges. We can have a ferry system though. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:55, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe there is now a bridge connecting Novosevensk and Kinley. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 10:51, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * But there is no highway there, right? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:44, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't believe so. Pierlot: Semyon built it, and he's governor of Seven, so it is legal. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:09, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * In that case, we need a highway to cross that bridge :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:10, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why? Isn't the current road alright? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:20, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because there are highways that connect towns of alike sizes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:22, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually I think all those highways are ridiculous thinking back about those plans. Maybe we could make a small airport that only has small flights for the tourists to seven and clymene Pierlot McCrooke 15:44, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Oos, you are not making sense right now. If the population increases I wouldn't have a problem with a landing strip on each of the seven isles in Seven, though I'd prefer a ferry service, plus a bridge between American Island and Philosopher's Island. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:06, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't support a landing strip on each of the seven islands... I just said: we have a bridge, we have a small road: make the road larger. For example Highway 7 connects Hurbanova (3.200), East Hills (400) and Clave Rock (200). Novosevensk (500) and Kinley (1000) are large enough to support a Highway. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:28, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

020. Change misleading names
I suggest we change the name of the first chamber and second chamber to Debating Room and Voting Room because our current names suggest we have a bicameral system while we haven't., Pierlot McCrooke 15:55, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that's a good enough reason. Besides, we need to preserve Dimi's seals as much as possible, and since there is no seal for Debating and Voting Room, we would no longer have good seals. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:11, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could ask kunarian to make the seals. Or not have seals, why do rooms (that are not parliamentary chamber) have seals? It just doesn't make sense Pierlot McCrooke 17:20, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the misleading part of it. I think in most countries the difference between the Dutch Eerste and Tweede Kamer is actually called "low" and "high" or "parliament" and "senate". --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:24, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

021. Resigning from my Post
I'm hereby resigning from my post as Secretary of Labor because i'm too busy with other things and i'm not really suited for the job I think Pierlot McCrooke 15:55, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * There is no Secretary of Labor. Were you, by chance, referring to the Minister of Labour? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:04, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why would you resign, Pierlot? Most secretaries aren't active either. Me neither. Also, just out of curiosity: what other things are you busy with? The glorious First Consul of Rome 16:27, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * @Timey I refer to my former position as the Secretary of Labor~. I refuse to use the new terms. What the position is called doesn't matter, I am resigning from it Pierlot McCrooke 17:18, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

022. Bilingual street names in Oceana
I would like to be able to create bilingual street signs in Oceana. As I doubt the governor has enough power to do this, I ask your permission for this. Eventually, I would like to build up to a situation in which Oceana can survive and can be seen. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:44, April 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * For an example of bilingual street signs in the Netherlands (Limburg), see these in Maastricht. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:46, April 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a great idea. Honestly I think this is something a governor should be able to do, but still you have my support. To all those against, I did the same in Brezonde and it's not a big problem to implement (though I haven't yet designed street signs. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:52, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

You have my total support for this :D maybe we could take it further assuring that governors have the right to control naming within their states Kunarian 19:28, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:14, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

@Kunarian: I think the role of the governor is a bit vague atm. Article five of the constitution does give something: The naming, organizing and maintaining of urban parks, public places, streets, markets, roads (with the exclusion of highways), waterways, natural areas and environmentally significant places that are not protected by the federal government, culturally significant monuments that are not protected by the federal government. But it does not say that bilingual naming is allowed (so making both the English name as well as the Oceana name official). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:29, April 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think that its perfectly allowed according to that. However yes, the role of governer is vague and I think in need of reform into something, well, a little more clearer at least and hopefully something that can be more active in the general politics of it all. - Kunarian 193.200.145.154 14:55, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Well it says you can name and organize the streets, so you could do it in any language you wanted. Granted it is best to do it in a language the majority of citizens speak, but as Oceana is culturally/historically significant and widely spoken it should not be a problem. HORTON11 : •  14:24, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

023. Honours Act
--Semyon 11:14, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) This Act makes provision for the creation of two bodies, recognized by the Lovian Government and sponsored by the monarch.
 * 2) The Order of the White Pine.
 * 3) The Royal Academy for the Sciences and Humanities.
 * 4) The Order of the White Pine (OWP) consists of Lovians who have rendered service to the nation, either by bravery, work or other means, and is headed by the Grand Master of the Order, who is appointed by the monarch.
 * 5) The OWP may be awarded to no more than 20 individuals every year.
 * 6) Any inhabitant of Lovia may nominate an individual for the award.
 * 7) The decision as to which individuals will receive the award will be made by Congress, and confirmed by the monarch.
 * 8) The insignia will be awarded by the monarch and Prime Minister on the 21st of June every year, at the Royal Palace.
 * 9) The insignia of the Order consists of a circular badge struck with the image of a pine tree upon the obverse and the data on the reverse, suspended on a white ribbon.
 * 10) Any member of the Order has the right to use the initials OWP after their name.
 * 11) The Royal Academy for the Sciences and Humanities consists of academics who have made a significant contribution to their field, and is headed by the Rector of Blackburn University.
 * 12) The purpose of the Academy is to fund scientific research and advances, and to create a forum for academic discussion in Lovia.
 * 13) Prospective members must possess a postgraduate academic degree awarded by the Blackburn University.
 * 14) New members are created in the following way:
 * 15) Candidates may be proposed by any member of Congress under the guidance of the Rector of Blackburn Univerity.
 * 16) The members of the the Academy will then vote, on the 1st of June each year, to decide which of the shortlisted candidates to admit.
 * 17) The new members will then be inducted by the Rector.
 * 18) Members of the Academy have the right to use the initials MRA (Member of the Royal Academy) after their name.

I can support this bill, it's time we had such a way to show our long term appreciation for those who contribute more than the ordinary sweat and blood to the nation. Kunarian 11:24, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Looks good to me. What do the members of the Royal Academy do? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:11, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

I added some clarification. --Semyon 18:02, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

I'm doubting. Consider it a 50% support :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:36, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

024. Inventory of absent laws
Time to get this done I'd say. I think the following laws should preferrably be done by the end of the year (hopefully a bit earlier :P) Anything else, add it to the list I'd say :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:24, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Animal rights (though an "anti-halal slaughter act" will not be supported by CCPL)
 * 2) Traffic rules (so right-of-way is coming from the right, we drive on the right side of the road, maximum speed, mandatory yearly vehicle check-up, license plates, a bicyclist is not allowed on the highway, you know stuff like that :P)
 * 3) Agriculture protection law (what to do in case of crop failure etc)
 * 4) Transferring and adjusting some of the Oceana State Law (which is still not done..): mining act (+new mine workers' act). And perhaps reinstituting the state law differently (such as a set of laws which are to be changed by Congress in consultation with the local governor, pertaining to state symbols and state departments - this would mean an amendment of article five in the Constitution).

I still would like to see the states with assemblies and state law put back in. it certainly gets my vote. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:00, May 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Mine too, but for now it's not top priority I guess :) If you already have new ideas, you're welcome to post them though :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:59, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Add tax system, a budget, and healthcare laws. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:29, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Tax and budget are primary needs. Kunarian 15:13, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Tell you what why don't we pause the discussion of the transport and get the important laws like tax, regulations and protections and healthcare out of the way so we can start to make a way for the other laws. We also need basic laws against assualt don't we? Kunarian 15:13, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well, in that case our Constitution and Federal Law are no longer sufficient. We need a separate set of criminal law codes for that. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:18, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

No, the Federal Law is sufficient, because it has a criminal law book. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:20, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Ow, but we should consider splitting it up though. But if it's not split up yet, we could leave it as it is for now. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:33, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

What about an economic stimulus plan? The recession must have affected Lovia in some way, and Occupy and Liberation movements are a sign that there are problems. What I woiuld like to see most, though, is a comprehensive public healthcare plan. One we have healthcare, we can focus on welfare, labor, taxes and how to pay for it and other ways of offsetting the costs. HORTON11 : •  17:54, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

When I hear "health care" I always think of all those Americans who prefer the chance of dying from easily treatable diseases which they can't afford to paying a very tiny little bit of insurance money :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 19:09, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, but insurance is messed up here. It's really expensive and insurance companies pull all these tricks on you to contribute as little money as they can. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:04, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Its very easy to actually not be tricked, and most insurance companies (mainly the smaller ones) do not pull tricks at all, however like most situations its a few people who make a big noise that get heard. Kunarian 09:03, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

025 Re-instating State Laws
I've been a bit unactive but can say i feel quite passionate about this. With us reinstating the laws and allowing a small state assembly I feel like we could get back on the right track. It's only one line but afterwards i'd like to set up a law where we devolute powers down to the respective states and write the election laws. Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:47, June 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) With approval of this proposition state laws are reinstated.
 * Only if we get enough users after getting spotlight Pierlot McCrooke 12:48, June 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * You can count on my support. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:43, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

026. Foreign affairs
In order to boost Lovian participation in international dialogue, I lay before the honourable MOTCs some possibilities.
 * Signing a treaty with the USA, in order to establish closer links, enabling freer trade and simple travel between the two countries. Also the US may agree to be responsible for Lovia's defence, and allowing Lovian citizens to use American embassies.
 * Refounding the UWN, possibly under a different name, to coöperate more with nations such as Brunant or Mäöres with whom Lovia has a strong cultural connection. Inactive wikinations could also take part as associate members.
 * Becoming an associate member of the Nederlandse Taalunie in recognition of the widespread use of Dutch in Lovia and the strong connections that Lovia has with the Netherlands, Belgium and Libertas.
 * Joining the UN.
 * Joining the OAS, NAFTA or the North American Forum.
 * Joining the Commonwealth of Nations (not very likely imo, though it is possible for nations not formerly part of the British Empire to join).

--Semyon 13:16, June 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright, my reaction:
 * Indeed, we should definitely sign a treaty with the USA concerning Lovia's defence. I also see the practical advantage of using America's embassies.
 * !! If you want, I can help you with this one :)
 * Weak . I think there is not enough room in Lovia for Dutch to become an official language. While it is not explicitly necessary for a member of the Dutch Language Uninion to have Dutch as an official language, it currently is the case for all members. I don't really see the need for it. Unlike Belgium (Vlaams), the Netherlands, and Suriname, Lovia does not have its own Dutch linguistic tradition and therefore we don't have anything to gain by becoming a member.
 * UN.
 * I don't know any of these to be honest, so I can't get you a reply until I've read the Wikipedia pages :P
 * Commonwealth? Why? :P
 * --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:36, June 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * I fully support the first two, especially the UWN thingy. But why join the Taalunie? It would be the same as Lovia joining a Russian language organization or a Lusophone one. To 4 and 5: pro, but I see no need for the Commonwealth. Lovia was never a colony, much less British. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:50, June 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong - Lovia should not join any of these. Trade with the USA is fine with me, but Lovia should handle it's own defense and not be dependent on such a treacherous ally for it's safety. Other then that... re-creating\joining the UWN is fine with me. No to the Taalunie and as for the commonwealth: our only head of state is King Dimitri. No Elizabeth, pretty boat-parades or not. The glorious First Consul of Rome 20:28, June 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course I would love the commonwealth. but i'm an anglophile so A bit bias I might say. to UN Contra or just unsure about the rest. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:04, June 12, 2012 (UTC)

I started a new forum here. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:29, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

027. Changing the Marriage Act?
I was just reading through the Lovian law and the Marriage Act is really odd... Link:.

I find the "two parties" construction very ambiguous. Can a native speaker tell me whether this law makes it possible for a man to marry legally with f.e. two women? If it's ambiguous, we should replace "two parties" with "two people" (preferably "a man and woman", but I fear that ain't gonna survive the voting :P) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:20, June 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that the fact that a definition of 'party' is not given makes the bill flawed. --Semyon 16:07, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, suppose we had someone trying to get a pebble and a grain of salt married. I did think there was something related to monogamy in the law, though. I'd support the change. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:05, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I see your point, but I don't know a pebble would be able to fulfil the condition to 'voluntarily agree to take up certain rights and duties' and 'to offer each other respect, affection and consolation.' ;) I also see some spelling/grammar errors in this bill. --Semyon 05:41, June 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hahahah, well it was proposed by Yuri, so that explains it I guess :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:32, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we could also leave out line 2.1: Both parties are at least 18 years old or have permission of the parents and a legal advisor ? Why should we allow people under 18 to marry? It makes no sense.

The only thing indicating that there should be two "partners" can be deducted from line 4.3:  Both partners agree upon the termination and inform the governor of this. Not very clearly stated and actually in the divorce section... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:35, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

In Britain you can marry if you are over sixteen and have parents' permission. But I agree, they should have to wait. I'm just reading some divorce stats and apparently in America 59% of women who marry before their eighteenth birthday divorce within 15 years, compared with 36% of the average population. --Semyon 09:08, June 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I find 36% disturbing enough... But well, Britain's law is probably because of the travellers :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:13, June 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree, but the point is that 59% is a lot worse. ;) Don't know about the travellers. --Semyon 13:46, June 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's true :P Well, gypsies are still quite common in Britain and they tend to marry relatively early :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:05, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

028. Decalogue
We could take over the Mäöreser Dikkeloeag in a more secular form. While in essence based on the Ten Commendments, it generally regulates murders, theft, and false witnesses in court etc. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:42, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

029. Abortion Regulation Act
This piece was stranded some time ago. I decided to give a new version as it's better to have murder regulated than leaving it up to everybody to go killing 'round. Changes are indicated with strikes and bolded text.

(Social Law Book, Federal Law)
 * 1) Abortus Provocatus, defined as a willingly induced termination of pregnancy before fetal viability, is considered legal only when:
 * 2) Carried out by a qualified physician, registered in a hospital recognized by the Department of Welfare.
 * 3) Positive advice has been given by the executing physician and at least one other, non-involved physician.
 * 4) Executed no sooner than seven days two weeks after the first consultation.
 * 5) Executed within the first twelve weeks of the pregnancy.
 * 6) The mother has been impregnated against her will.
 * 7) Abortus Provocatus after the first twelve weeks of the pregnancy is considered legal only when:
 * 8) Carried out by a qualified physician, registered in a hospital recognized by the Department of Welfare.
 * 9) Positive advice has been given by the executing physician and at least two other, non-involved physicians.
 * 10) Executed no sooner than three seven days after the first consultation.
 * 11) The physical health of the mother is considered to be severely at risk when the pregnancy is not terminated.
 * 12) The fetus is considered to be inviable or has already deceased in the uterus.
 * 13) Before carrying out an abortion, the executing physician must always take the following measures:
 * 14) To notify the patient of all health risks involved with the abortion of pregnancy.
 * 15) To bring several other facilities for unwanted undesired children to the patient's mind.
 * 16) To ensure themselves of the patient's full will to carry out the abortion.
 * 17) If an abortion is carried out illegally, the following consequences may follow:
 * 18) The executing physician will have their medical license revoked.
 * 19) The executing physician will be fined $10,000 plus the cost of the operation prosecuted with murder charges and held responsible for the costs of the operation.
 * 20) The mother will be fined $10,000.

Changes:
 * Prolonging the legal time of thought to two weeks.
 * Adding the "rape section".
 * Adding the "dead kid scenario".
 * Higher fine for the executing physician to ban out all illegally carried out abortions.
 * Some wording.

This is as progressive as I find acceptable. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:07, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

i'll say pro.Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:40, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

There needs to be a clear definition in section 2 of when that time period ends. After a certain period women and doctors can know if they are pregnant. Perhaps a child after 5 or 6 months could be deemed too developed to allow an abortion. This would allow sufficient time for an earlier abortion. HORTON11 : •  13:25, June 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, should we take the risk that both the mother and the child die during birth? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:31, June 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Horton does have a point though. The mother will have to give birth to the child, even if it's dead (gruesome I know) so the risk to her health is still there. In some cases, the child might as well remain alive. --Semyon 13:44, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

(edc) I see we're adopting the Breyev standard of additions and removals. :P On a more serious note: I'm a bit dubious about 'the physical health of the mother is considered to be severely at risk when the pregnancy is not terminated.' The problem is that giving birth is inherently risky, so a doctor could potentially argue that by carrying out an abortion he was removing a serious risk to the mother's health. I propose we change it to 'when the risk to the mother's physical health is estimated to be at least one hundred times greater than the usual risk of childbirth.' There's an identical loophole in British law, btw.

Also: when laws contain a list of circumstances when a procedure can occur, I'm never sure if it means all of the circumstances have to occur, or just one. Could we maybe clarify this? --Semyon 13:44, June 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a good system :P The 100-risk is a good one. No, it is per line in the Lovian law, so if it said The physical health of the mother is considered to be severely at risk when the pregnancy is not terminated. The fetus is considered to be inviable or has already deceased in the uterus. then both would apply. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:08, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think abortion is murder, so I'm not sure I could support the new line that says the executing physician will be charged with murder. Also, 100 times-risk seems a bit too high. I'd support 10 times. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:16, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

If you consider that maternal mortality rate in the US is 16 in every 100,000, then 100 times the risk is 1.6% - still rather small, even though this only accounts for death and not just injury. --Semyon 18:12, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

I see. So if the risk of dying due to giving birth to a baby is 1.6% or greater, you would be able to get an abortion? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:05, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

@murder: It would definitely stop illegal abortions and that's what we want. @1.6%: yes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 20:09, June 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Seems agreeable enough. This has the LDP's support. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:30, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Second version after discussions
(Social Law Book, Federal Law)
 * 1) Abortus Provocatus (referred to hereafter as abortion), defined as a willingly induced termination of pregnancy before fetal viability, is considered legal only when:
 * 2) Carried out by a qualified physician, registered in a hospital recognized by the Department of Welfare.
 * 3) Positive advice Permission has been given by the executing physician and at least one other, non-involved physician.
 * 4) Executed no sooner than two weeks after the first consultation.
 * 5) Executed within the first twelve weeks of the pregnancy, except in circumstances considered in section 2.
 * 6) The mother has been impregnated against her will.
 * 7) Or the risk to the physical health of the mother is considered to be one hundred times greater than the average risk of childbirth.
 * 8) Or the fetus is considered to be inviable before the twenty-fifth week of the pregnancy.
 * 9) In every case, the mother has to give her approval to carry out the abortion.
 * 10) Abortion after the first twelve weeks of the pregnancy is considered legal only when:
 * 11) Carried out by a qualified physician, registered in a hospital recognized by the Department of Welfare.
 * 12) Positive advice Permission has been given by the executing physician and at least two other, non-involved physicians.
 * 13) Executed no sooner than seven days after the first consultation.
 * 14) The risk to the physical health of the mother is considered to be severely seventy times greater at risk when the pregnancy is not terminated than the usual risk of childbirth.
 * 15) Or the fetus is considered to be inviable or has already deceased in the uterus before the twenty-fifth week of the pregnancy.
 * 16) In every case, the mother has to give her approval to carry out the abortion.
 * 17) Before carrying out an abortion, the executing physician must always take the following measures:
 * 18) To notify the patient of all health risks involved with the abortion of pregnancy.
 * 19) To remind the parent of bring several other possibilities facilities for undesired children. to the patient's mind.
 * 20) To ensure themselves of the patient's full will desire to carry out the abortion.
 * 21) If an abortion is carried out illegally, the following consequences may follow:
 * 22) The executing physician will have their medical license revoked.
 * 23) The executing physician will be liable to prosecution for murder prosecuted with murder charges and held responsible for the costs of the operation.
 * 24) The mother will be fined $10,000.

Changes: --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:08, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Making clear that it's an "or situation".
 * Leaving out the deceased part (Ceasarian section or normal birth).
 * Making a fixed term for abortion of inviable life.

I still see a slight problem - it seems that in the case of the health risk the mother has to wait until after the first twelve weeks of pregnancy, because only women who have been raped can have an abortion before. --Semyon 10:41, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Better? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:04, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, better. I made some other (mostly grammar) changes as well. --Semyon 11:21, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, thank you :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:28, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Saying that the risk to the mother would have to be one-hundred times greater is saying that the mother would definitely die in giving childbirth. I think that this percent should be lowered to at-least seventy percent, so that there is less of a chance that this abortion law will be responsible for deaths during childbirth. For the sake of freedom of decision, and more importantly, to avoid having the government forced to take responsibility for such deaths, I'd say that this line (1.6.) should be revised to say something like "If there is any risk to the mother, and she wishes to carry out this abortion." This way, you are giving the mother the freedom to decide wether she really wants to carry out an abortion, but only if it puts her life in direct danger. This seems not only to be a more friendly approach, but a potentially life-saving tweak. — Beer.png Christopher Costello (Pikapi • Chat  • What's up ) 14:15, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we can live with that. I changed it. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:04, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for compromising with me, but the more that I think about it, It only seems permissible to me that if their is any risk to the mothers health, that she should have the right to request an abortion. For instance, if a woman becoming pregnant with good intentions turns out putting her life on the line by holding offspring, her survival shouldn't be left to chance. In other worlds, as long as it is for a good reason, abortion should be offered as an alternative to possible death. I think that this is a compromise that liberals and conservatives can agree upon, and you will have my vote. — Beer.png Christopher Costello (Pikapi • Chat  • What's up ) 12:51, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but this is unacceptable. We already discussed that unless we quantify the risk in some way, we essentially give abortion a free rein, because all childbirth entails some risk (0.0016% in the USA to be precise). Also, I think you may have misunderstood the 'hundred times' thing: the risk is not 100 times greater than 1.6%, which is 160% (nonsensical, as you point out) but 100 times greater than 0.0016%, which is 1.6%. This is both progressive, in that it allows women to have an abortion for even small risks to their health, and conservative, in that only one-hundredth of potential abortions will be legalised on health grounds. --Semyon 13:17, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * You lost me. If the problem is that there is always a risk, then why don't you make it where the mother has the right to request an abortion if there is any added risk that the doctor finds? — Beer.png Christopher Costello (Pikapi • Chat  • What's up ) 03:50, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, that's also an option, but personally I prefer a stricter regulation. --Semyon 17:54, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, yeah... but people could die because you feel like being a totalitarian. — Beer.png Christopher Costello (Pikapi • Chat  • What's up ) 14:51, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * No offence, but you need to look up a definition of totalitarianism. Also, isn't the child's life important? and isn't a 1.6% risk threshold actually rather generous? --Semyon 20:34, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Being totalitarian is essentially going overboard trying to place restrictions on menial things. I'm suggesting that placing strict regulations on abortion will help save lives. In my eyes the life of the fully developed parent sort of outweighs that of the embryo, but it is not that I'm disregarding the developing child, its just that in the situation where a split decision has to be made, it seems more unethical to risk the wellbeing of the parent, who's life has already been set into motion. — Beer.png <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 00:36, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Let's take this to the Second Chamber. --Semyon 14:32, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * . --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:01, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

030. Rural districts
Our censuses now include rural districts in a few states. Should we mention the rural districts in our laws? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:28, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should, but I don't know how to go about it. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:12, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Well, it would be a fairly simple addition of a sentence I guess. Shall I make a proposal? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:09, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Try to make them according to the censuses we did. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:13, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't the states be in charge of this? HORTON11 : •  17:41, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

They can't. The rural districts need to be regulated by law, but State Laws have been abolished. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:54, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

sadly. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:16, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Do you think we can reach a majority for re-enacting state laws? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:37, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

I would vote all pro for that. HORTON11 : •  12:58, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

I would not, because I don't like how governors can just write laws without a legislature. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:02, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

Of course a new system will be created. The simplest form would be: 1. Congress should check all State Law additions/adaptions. 2. Congress has (f.e.) two weeks time to raise questions/concerns before the implementation of the law. 3. Congress can edit/block an adaption of or addition to the State Law if questions/concerns have been raised. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:25, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

We also need to give governors some liberties, or else their post would be useless. And congress should not need to micromanage each state's affairs. It becomes time-consuming and ineficinent (for Lovia it might not be a big problem but for a real country it's not effective). HORTON11 : •  18:36, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

I like when the governors micromanage, but the Congress, well, macromanages, if that's a word. The governors create infrastructure, hospitals, schools, and other things, while the Congress checks their laws and can override something. Normally, Congress would not interfere, but if the Governor wants to do something they don't like, they can stop it. The nation is more important than the individual state, I believe. Governors should be the ones to do the actual enforcement of the laws and development of the state, but not the dictators who decide all the laws. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:12, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

That's why I wan't what I've proposed above. In most cases "macromanaging laws" don't need actual implementation on the state level. Currently, governorship is rather boring... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:52, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, that system sounds good. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:08, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a reintroduction of a modernized state law system isn't impossible. I'll soon check up with the (former) law and see how to write an amendment (as it would be constitutional I think...) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:34, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

031. Adoption and Orphanage Act
Alright, time to settle this one. Though I personally would not like gay adoption to be possible, sometimes we - as CCPL - should give up some of our points. In order to fit in line with the Marriage Act (which does not illegalize or even mention same-sex), I think a "neutral" tone would be best in this law. A few points I want to ask your opinion about, though, are: A point we probably all agree on is that we should carefully select adoption parents. We don't want children being abused once again. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:44, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Single parent adoption
 * 2) Adoption preference (f.e. should in-family adoption be prefered above adoption by non-relatives: in case of orphanage by parental death I'd say yes, in case of orphanage by abuse I'd say no, but we could let the child decide after a certain age)
 * 3) Adoption of foreign children (we need to have a clear border; we can't get all of Africa in Lovia :P)
 * 4) Same-sex adoption (I'd still like to hear your opinions about this one even though I'm willing to give up my anti-gay stand this time :P)

I'd say that adoption of children over the age of eight (nine and up) should require the consent of the child to be adopted. If they refuse, they will just stay in "limbo", as in some sort of orphanage. Same sex adoption should be legal, but not mentioned. In-family adoption should always be preferred, unless the child is nine or older, as said before, or in the case of abuse. Double parent adoption should be preferred. I don't see any need for foreign children adoption regulation besides those that are already there for the domestic children. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:42, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with you, except for your last remark. We should at least give an age limit, so that the children won't experience integrational issues (language, customs, etc.). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:04, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I can agree with that. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:16, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I;d agree with most of the things oos pointed out Marcus/Michael Villanova 02:07, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Anybody else with an opinion? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:15, August 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Should be allowed, but hopefully to a parent who has some financial stability in order to provide
 * 2) the age limit is fine
 * 3) I agree with TM that our adoption laws should cover immigrant and Lovian-borns together
 * 4) It should be left a gray area. We should not prevent same-sex couples from adopting but I don't thnk the government would need to promote it. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:02, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, higher-wealth families (up to a certain point) should be preferred, to ensure that the child doesn't live in poverty or near-poverty (not being able to go to a good college, no internet access, less healthy food, etc). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:18, August 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Good point. Fanincial stability is surely important. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:58, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not just stability, but also the amount of net income. The adopting person/family needs to have enough money for the child to live a comfortable childhood and adolescence. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:14, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh I'm sorry, in Limburgish "stability" can mean both being stable and being enough :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:45, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well we shouldn't deny less well-off people the right to adopt, but if a person can provide well and and give a child a good quality of live they should be allowed. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 11:40, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree, but it should be discouraged. As I said, we don't want the children to have a low quality of life. But I just mean for families with around maybe $25,000 income/year and less, it will be harder to adopt. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:42, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

032. Film and video game rating systems in Lovia
Do we have film and video game rating systems in Lovia? If not, don't you think that we need them? I'd be more than happy to establish an article for these systems, and maybe even draft a law that I could propose for it. I think that I have a good amount of experience in this field, and would be happy to make my first actual proposal in the Second Chamber. What do you think? — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello  (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 14:23, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but we would also need television ratings, et cetera. I would like a government aided (or perhaps run) agency to do this. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:35, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm opposed to government agencies directly moderating these things, so government aided sounds about right. Usually, they have independent organizations that regulate in each field and then the government enforces these ratings with a law or something. In Lovia's case, I feel that it would be convenient to have a single classification board company with individual branches to handle film, video game and television ratings. — Beer.png <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 02:48, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * That sounds good. The current article you are making is coming along nicely. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:14, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

033. 2012 Federal Police Reform
Read and tell me if you'd like me to revise anything before I take this to the Second Chamber! — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello  (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 18:14, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I posted something about this on the article's talk page, so you can read it there. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:14, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

034. Honours Act (reproposed)
--Semyon 11:14, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) This Act makes provision for the creation of two bodies, recognized by the Lovian Government and sponsored by the monarch.
 * 2) The Order of the White Pine.
 * 3) The Royal Academy for the Sciences and Humanities.
 * 4) The Order of the White Pine (OWP) consists of Lovians who have rendered service to the nation, either by bravery, work or other means, and is headed by the Grand Master of the Order, who is appointed by the monarch.
 * 5) The OWP may be awarded to no more than 20 individuals every year.
 * 6) Any inhabitant of Lovia may nominate an individual for the award.
 * 7) The decision as to which individuals will receive the award will be made by Congress, and confirmed by the monarch.
 * 8) The insignia will be awarded by the monarch and Prime Minister on the 21st of June every year, at the Royal Palace.
 * 9) The insignia of the Order consists of a circular badge struck with the image of a pine tree upon the obverse and the data on the reverse, suspended on a white ribbon.
 * 10) Any member of the Order has the right to use the initials OWP after their name.
 * 11) The Royal Academy for the Sciences and Humanities consists of academics who have made a significant contribution to their field, and is headed by the Rector of Blackburn University.
 * 12) The purpose of the Academy is to fund scientific research and advances, and to create a forum for academic discussion in Lovia.
 * 13) Prospective members must possess a postgraduate academic degree awarded by the Blackburn University.
 * 14) New members are created in the following way:
 * 15) Candidates may be proposed by any member of Congress under the guidance of the Rector of Blackburn Univerity.
 * 16) The members of the the Academy will then vote, on the 1st of June each year, to decide which of the shortlisted candidates to admit.
 * 17) The new members will then be inducted by the Rector.
 * 18) Members of the Academy have the right to use the initials MRA (Member of the Royal Academy) after their name.

I can support this bill, it's time we had such a way to show our long term appreciation for those who contribute more than the ordinary sweat and blood to the nation. Kunarian 11:24, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Looks good to me. What do the members of the Royal Academy do? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:11, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

I added some clarification. --Semyon 18:02, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

I'm doubting. Consider it a 50% support :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:36, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

I'm reproposing this act. --Semyon 10:14, August 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * And I'm still doubting :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:16, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand the purpose of the OWP. Is it is just an honor, not a job or anything? I propose that the Royal Academy is the leader of Science and Humanities in Lovia, and sets standards and conducts experiments and studies, etc. as the national institution of science (and humanities). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:28, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's just an honor. As Kunarian says, 'a way to show our long term appreciation for those who contribute more than the ordinary sweat and blood to the nation.' --Semyon 19:53, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

035. IWO positions
According to the IWO Declaration, we need to appoint a secretary from each wikination for the following departments of the IWO: Culture, Justice, Trade and Travel, Establishment of Embassies, Translation, Development and Aid, and Defence. Also, two representatives for the Council of the IWO should be appointed or elected from each wikination. This makes a total of 27 posts, counting Lovians, Brunanters and Mäöresers, so we'll probably have about five each. :P

I suggest anyone who wishes nominate themselves or someone else below. I've included a section for all 3 nations; while it would be ideal to have decisions made on the individual wikis, it's probably easier to have everything on one page. Please link here if you wish. :) --Semyon 20:23, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Lovia

 * Culture: Robert Miller
 * Justice: Aaron Wyatt
 * Trade and Travel: Agnes Roedel
 * Establishment of Embassies: John Bold
 * Translation: Hens-Jón Górdiger
 * Development and Aid:
 * Defence: Kai Dekker
 * Council rep 1: Basil Khouri
 * Council rep 2:

Brunant

 * Culture: Oliver Hewton
 * Justice:
 * Trade and Travel: Mateus Figueras
 * Establishment of Embassies: Frank Hagen
 * Translation: A.K.P. Kruyshoff
 * Development and Aid: Ludovik Marster
 * Defence: Princess Amalia (MMUnson)
 * Council rep 1:
 * Council rep 2:

Mäöres

 * Culture: Zwènherd Kröchman-ven Pól
 * Justice: Bèr Mans
 * Trade and Travel: User:MartijnM (name to be defined)
 * Establishment of Embassies: Wesley Köjs
 * Translation: Har ven Veelze
 * Development and Aid: User:MartijnM (name to be defined)
 * Defence: User:Benopat (name to be defined)
 * Council rep 1: Rón Stömme-Mäönichs
 * Council rep 2: User:MartijnM (name to be defined)

Comments
Okay, Landjszaal will be informed :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 20:44, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Would all the positions have to be user controlled? And can one person have more than one position (across several nations)? HORTON11 : •  20:56, August 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * It would have to. We don't have enough users è. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 20:58, August 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well then, if you want you could be Brunant's cultural guy and lead the HTA. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 21:07, August 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not really that much into Brunant's culture, so a more active user would be better. I could take on defense, translation or development and aid if you want to. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 21:32, August 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Feel free to choose from those, though I hink you would do great in the translation department. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:52, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it would indeed be best as I'm the Dutchie here :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:54, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I wold like to be the culture person of Brunant, I am, also the head of the Natoinal Monuments there.MMunson (talk)
 * I added you. :) --Semyon 10:26, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

I'll probably add myself for embassies, development, and possibly the council, but I'm happy to fill any gap. :P --Semyon 10:26, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * No-one demurred, so I added myself. --Semyon 19:18, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

I just added the agreement according to the vote of the landjszaal. We still need aliasses for the users so I am not governor and representative from the IWO in one! Bart K (talk) 09:43, August 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Haha, yeah, I already invented some doppelgängers for myself. :P --Semyon 19:20, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

Just to let you know: I'm not going to represent Lovia as I already have Brunant, Mäöres and possibly Inselöarna. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:50, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

One of those rare moments: Mäöres is the only country that's done it :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:16, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

I have add Agnes Roebel for trade and travel and Robert Miller for culture in Lovia. Wabba The I (talk) 17:09, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

Threw in some for Defence and Justice, I don't know how I forgot this. Kunarian (talk) 17:19, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

036. Census Act

 * 1) The census is defined as a yearly survey of every household in the Kingdom of Lovia.
 * 2) Censuses are carried out by a Demographic Center in each state, under the supervision of the Governor.
 * 3) Congress must send federal inspectors to each Demographic Center to ensure that data collection is being done correctly and to a high standard, and maintaining high statistical reliability.
 * 4) If there is concern about the census, Congress may choose by a simple majority to order any of all of the Centers to repeat the census.
 * 5) In extreme cases, Congress may nominate another individual to take over the supervisory role of the Governor.
 * 6) The data collected must include the following:
 * 7) Total population by district, neighborhood, hamlet, village, town and city.
 * 8) Population by ethnic background.
 * 9) Population by mother language.
 * 10) Population by religion.
 * 11) Individual Centers may also choose to collect some or all of the following data:
 * 12) Population by size of household.
 * 13) Population by age.
 * 14) Population by marital status.
 * 15) Population by country of birth.
 * 16) Data concerning the possessions of the population, e.g. car or house ownership.
 * 17) Population by sector of employment.
 * 18) Percentage of population unemployed or in education.
 * 19) Population by status of dwelling e.g. rent, full ownership, ownership with mortgage etc.
 * 20) The census should be carried out in the June of every year.
 * 21) In the case that the census is delayed in any state for more than a month without prior notice being given by the Governor or Congress, any citizen may take over the supervisory role of the Governor, or request Congress to nominate an individual for this role.
 * 22) Censuses may also be carried out at other times at the request of Congress, or if a Governor wishes to gather more up-to-date information on their individual state.

Comments
I thought it would be a good idea to write a short census law. --Semyon 19:08, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll check it soon :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:32, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

--O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:10, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

I thought we already had ones like this? But very good otherwise :D Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:15, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

I think that the status of dwelling (renting, mortgage, homeless, etc.) should also be included. And perhaps everything on the "optional list" should be mandatory instead of optional. What do the others think about that? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:24, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

I added it. Theoretically, I support making it all mandatory - but I don't know anyone will actually do it. --Semyon 06:42, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

You know, the problem is that making stuff like age and gender is 1. a hell of a task.. 2. it restricts you (if you only have about 15 people over 90 years old, you will never be able to create a 90+ choir with 50 members :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:06, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

Well, you can change that later. And why should things like religion and ethnicity be required if age and gender are not? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:55, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

Because they're more interesting. :P Actually, I don't think many governors are very motivated, that's why I don't want to burden them with pointless tasks. You yourself got me to do the Kings census for you. :P --Semyon 14:03, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

Then why make any of these required? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:29, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps the only compulsory element should be the actual number of people. I personally find ethnicity/religion the most interesting parts of the census, and assumed (maybe wrongly) that other people did too. --Semyon 14:46, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

037. Revision of Marriage Act

 * The word 'party' shall be replaced throughout with the word 'person.'
 * The phrase 'in the presence of the governor' shall be struck out, as Lovia was smaller then and presumably there were a lot fewer weddings. :P

What does anyone else think? --Semyon 20:11, August 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether "in te presence of the governor" should be struck out. Lovian states all have about 40,000 inhabitants. It ain't that much... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:07, August 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * If the average state has 40000 inhabitants, and 60% of them get married at some point in their lives, that's roughly 25000 people, or 12500 couples. Assuming distribution of weddings is fairly consistent, as life expectancy is ~80 years, and all those 12500 weddings have to occur at some point, that's an average of 156 weddings per year, or roughly three a week. That's enough, in my opinion, to detract seriously from the very important work that a governor does. :P --Semyon 10:19, August 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, an official party should be there though. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:49, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

038. Reforming Package of the State Elections, creation of state legislatures, and re-introduction of most of the Local Police Act
I propose the following change to the State elections part of the Constitution. As follows:
 * 1) State Elections and State Legislatures:
 * 2) Every Lovian citizen has the right to become a candidate for Member of State Legislature (MSL) wherein he or she has an official resdicence.
 * 3) A citizen can run in two states of which he or she claims resdicence.
 * 4) The term of office of the elected Member of State Legislature is exactly one year. Therefore every year the elections should be held at the same date.
 * 5) Election procedure during State Elections:
 * 6) During a period of two weeks, any Lovian citizen and resident of the state can become a candidate in the State Elections. This period begins exactly one month before the day of the inauguration of the Members of State Legislatures.
 * 7) During a period of two weeks, any Lovian citizen can cast his or her vote in favor of a candidate in the State Elections of the state of which he or she is an official resident.
 * 8) Every citizen may cast two votes per state election. Inhabitants of multiple states have the right to cast one vote for each state in which they have an official residence.
 * 9) The two votes to be cast cannot be cast on the same person.
 * 10) The two votes are a Major vote worth (two points) and a Minor vote worth (two points).
 * 11) Citizens may choose not to cast their vote.
 * 12) The normal dates of elections, are set at September 16th to 30th for nominations, and from October 1st to 14th for voting. Inauguration Day is set at November 1st.
 * 13) The total amount of votes is added up and each candidate gets the amount of seats based on the size of the legislature.
 * 14) If a majority of seats cannot be reached a coalition must be formed or else a new election will be called
 * 15) All of the members in the legislatures will be recorded in the National State Member Order.
 * 16) If there is a tie in total seats, and a government cannot be formed, the two can reach a formal agreement known as a "Shared Government" in which both parties are known as oppostion members and there is no official government.
 * 17) In the case of a Shared Government, the two sides still need to put foward a Governor, or leader of the state.
 * 18) The title of the leader of a state is Governor, which will be appointed by the legislature.
 * 19) The Governors job is to lead the state in which he represents and promote it to the best of his ablilities.
 * 20) The Deputy Governor is second-in-command to the Governor and is also appointed by the legislature
 * 21) The Deputy Governor is in temporary charge of the state competencies during the absence of the Governor.
 * 22) The five legislatures with recognized federal power are the: Clymene State Legislature, Kings State Legislature, Oceana State Legislature, Seven State Legislature, Sylvania State Legislature.
 * 23) Each state legislature has 10 members, the total number of members can change with approval frist by the state legislature itself, and the with approval of congress.
 * 24) All laws and acts will be recorded in each respective "State Law Book".
 * 25) Each state legislature needs to form a cabinet of five people, in which people can hold at maximum two positions.
 * 26) Those positions are Governor; Deputy Governor; Police; Health, Social Services and Culture; and Economic, Finance, and Regional Development secretaries.
 * 27) The positions are appointed by the state legislature and can be removed at any time.
 * 28) The powers of each Legislature are devolved as follows:
 * 29) To tax, spend and recieve money from the federal government to form a budget each year.
 * 30) To set up and maintain state police, state projects such as bridges and roads. To maintain the state health care program in partnership with the federal government, and to spend its budget on how it seems fit.
 * 31) The state legislatures do not have the power to: form their own country, change voting laws, or pass any laws that do not comply with the Consitution or Federal Law.
 * 32) Any law passed through the states legislature can be reviewed by Congress if it overreaches the states power.
 * 33) If congress reviews the law, and is voted upon in the Second Chamber, by a 60% majority, that it does violate the state's power it will be brought to the Supreme Court.

In addition I call for the re-introduction of the Local Police Act under this language:
 * Article 2 - Local Police Act
 * To ensure the people's safety every Lovian state is obliged to erect a local safety authority, under the Local Police Act, supported by Congress and the Ministry of Defense.
 * Every Lovian state is obliged to erect a State Police.
 * State Police, a safety authority working within the state boundaries and handling all issues within that state. This authority is managed by the state government.
 * Whenever issues transgress state borders the local safety authorities are obliged to hand over the case to the Federal Police. Cooperation whenever asked is required and withholding information on that case is strictly forbidden.
 * The power of State Police commissioner is appointed by the legislature and can be removed at any time

Comments
I'm still undecided. I was going to try out a more informal 'non-legal' system myself by creating an unofficial state law and rules for elections, before requesting recognition from congress. Also, I'm the only active user in Seven, so I would control all the members of the state council, which would be a bit weird. --Semyon 16:13, September 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * I've been thinking long and hard about buying a house in Seven, maybe if this was brought in we'd have an interesting situation going on there. But as things stand, you have a very valid concerning point. Kunarian (talk) 16:26, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

The only issue I have is that we don't have enough users to maintain state legislatures. HORTON11 : •  16:18, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why? The minimum you need actually is one user per state... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:50, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, according to this law, it needs three, because no user is allowed to have more than two of the five goverment posts. That's (party) why a lot of proofreading is required. --Semyon 16:56, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Assuming you point to 1.3.7.3: it says people, not users. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:59, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, my mistake. Nevertheless, what's the point in that then? --Semyon 18:03, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * There is no point... :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:06, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

I support these changes fully, expect the CNP to vote yes to it in the second chamber once everyone elses concerns have been seen to. Kunarian (talk) 16:26, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

One thing though: you can't call them ministers. That would interfere with national politics. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:52, September 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * May I suggest Secretary be introduced at a state level, Sylvanian Secretary of Education, Oceana Secretary of Police, etc... I think it'd serve as good replacement :) Kunarian (talk) 17:08, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Fine with me :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:09, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Some points to be made, Well as it stands One person controls all the states "final" matters as it stands. Since now a person can be in TWO states and now control more of the wikia they edit. Also it would keep that one person in line, even if it's jsut two people, there would now be order behind it. And I'll change the text to "Sceretary" and move it to the second chamber. :D Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:22, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

Semyon's comments
I agree with the general aim of this bill, but not all the specifics. Personally I think states should have more freedom to determine their own voting laws, as well as the size of their chamber and government positions etc., but quite apart from that, there are some flaws. Exempli gratia: The section is too complex and ambiguous. Are the two votes, for instance, per state or per all five? Also, if people can stand in more states, there will be far more people standing, so there will be fewer 'non-involved votes', i.e. votes from people not standing who don't have to vote for themselves, which undermines the point of an election.
 * 1) During a period of two weeks, any Lovian citizen can cast his or her vote in favor of a candidate in the State Elections of the state of which he or she is an official resident.
 * 2) Every citizen may cast two votes per state election. Inhabitants of multiple states have the right to cast one vote for each state in which they have an official residence.
 * 3) The two votes to be cast cannot be cast on the same person.
 * 4) The two votes are a Major vote worth (two points) and a Minor vote worth (two points).

Some proofreading is still necessary:
 * 1) A citizen can run in two states of which he or she claims resdicence.

Also, I don't particularly like this: I don't support the court making legislative decisions (or doing almost anything, tbh). I also think 60% should be 50%.
 * 1) Any law passed through the states legislature can be reviewed by Congress if it overreaches the states power.
 * 2) If congress reviews the law, and is voted upon in the Second Chamber, by a 60% majority, that it does violate the state's power it will be brought to the Supreme Court.
 * 3) The Supreme Court has the final say on if the law is unconstitutional.

Then: I don't see how the states' autonomy benefit from this to be honest. The role continues to be almost identical, although budget stuff is now official, which doesn't make a lot of difference as a few people were making budgets anyway. Preferable IMO: which still gives Congress ultimate power and the ability to prevent me creating a Seven army and labour camps on Love Island. In fact I think this proposal takes away state autonomy, because of more bureaucracy, more users to go inactive and an inflexible constitutional amendment which can't easily be changed. Hence my preference for an informal model which is adopted by governors on a state-by-state basis. --Semyon 19:53, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) The powers of each Legislature are devolved as follows:
 * 2) To tax, spend and recieve money from the federal government to form a budget each year.
 * 3) To set up and maintain state police, state projects such as bridges and roads. To maintain the state health care program in partnership with the federal government, and to spend its budget on how it seems fit.
 * 1) States are permitted to legislate on all matters as long as state laws do not contradict the federal Law or constitution. In the case of a contradiction arising from an addition to the federal law or constitution, the state law in question is automatically repealed.

TimeMaster's comments

 * 1) The plan has many errors. As semyon said, "The two votes are a Major vote worth (two points) and a Minor vote worth (two points)" makes little sense grammatically.
 * 2) Some lines are also missing periods or have spelling/grammar mistakes.
 * 3) I don't think that we have enough active users for this. And the reforms that we pass simply don't increase activity on the site. The current system of two positions is enough for the ten or so users willing to run for governor we have. Even if more join, it will be too complex to work. Making a state legislature of two people is useless if you ask me.
 * 4) I think that one vote will be necessary, not two, due to the small amount of users that would run. It appears that a citizen may run in two states, which is interesting. Why not have one for each residence, or simply a limit of one? It seems arbitrary.
 * 5) I still believe that the duties of our country are being fulfilled successfully by Congress. While I am not opposed to the Governor doing things such as creating infrastructure, neighborhoods, or parks, a legislature for each state is just too complex to be successful.
 * 6) I agree with Semyon this does not add true autonomy. Instead, it adds bureaucracy.
 * 7) In conclusion, I am opposed. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:52, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

In addition, what are all the secretaries going to do? If you ask me, nothing, because that sort of thing is already either controlled by the ministers or the governors. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:58, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

Response and re-post of law
To the point on bureaucracy. I can't actually see that we don't need it here, as a governor I've bulit many hospitals, or bridges or a project that was later called "non-practical" or "not possible" in the sense where either we wouldn't have the money or was admittidly stupid. This Legislature is the check and balance to that, which is needed. I did make mistakes in grammar and such which I will change. I will push for more autonomy instead because I believe we should each have a say in how a state is run an will get more people active in more than one state like most users, even me, do. I think the concenous is for more autonomy, which is what I was going for, But missed. So here's my try again:
 * 1) State Elections and State Legislatures:
 * 2) Every Lovian citizen has the right to become a candidate for the State Legislature of a state where he or she has an official residence.
 * 3) A citizen may run in two states of which he or she claim residence in.
 * 4) The term of office of members of the State Legislature is exactly one year. Therefore every year the elections should be held at the same date.
 * 5) Election procedure during State Elections:
 * 6) During a period of two weeks, any Lovian citizen and resident of the state can become a candidate in the State Elections. This period begins exactly one month before the day of the inauguration of the Members of State Legislatures.
 * 7) During a period of two weeks, any Lovian citizen can cast his or her vote in favor of a candidate in the State Elections of the state of which he or she is an official resident.
 * 8) Every citizen may cast two votes per state election. Inhabitants of multiple states have the right to cast one vote for each state in which they have an official residence.
 * 9) The two votes to be cast cannot be cast on the same person.
 * 10) The two votes are a Major vote worth (two points) and a Minor vote worth (one points), per state.
 * 11) Citizens may choose not to cast their vote.
 * 12) The normal dates of elections, are set at September 16th to 30th for nominations, and from October 1st to 14th for voting. Inauguration Day is set at November 1st.
 * 13) The total amount of votes is added up and each candidate gets the amount of seats based on the size of the legislature.
 * 14) If a majority of seats cannot be reached a coalition must be formed or else a new election will be called
 * 15) All of the members in the legislatures will be recorded in the National State Member Order.
 * 16) If there is a tie in total seats, and a government cannot be formed, the two can reach a formal agreement known as a "Shared Government" in which both parties are known as oppostion members and there is no official government.
 * 17) In the case of a Shared Government, the two sides still need to put foward a Governor, or leader of the state.
 * 18) The title of the leader of a state is Governor, which will be appointed by the legislature.
 * 19) The job of the Governor is to lead the state in which he represents and promote it to the best of his ablilities.
 * 20) The Deputy Governor is second-in-command to the Governor and is also appointed by the legislature
 * 21) The Deputy Governor is in charge of the state during the absence of the Governor, and inherits the post of Governor if the Governor leaves office unexpectedly, either by death, resignation, or other means.
 * 22) The five legislatures with recognized federal power are the: Clymene State Legislature, Kings State Legislature, Oceana State Legislature, Seven State Legislature, Sylvania State Legislature.
 * 23) Each state legislature has 10 members, the total number of members can change with approval by the respective state legislature.
 * 24) All laws and acts will be recorded in each respective "State Law Book".
 * 25) Each state legislature needs to form a cabinet of five people, in which people can hold at maximum two positions.
 * 26) Those positions are Governor; Deputy Governor; Police; Health, Social Services and Culture; and Economic, Finance, and Regional Development secretaries.
 * 27) The positions are appointed by the state legislature and can be removed at any time.
 * 28) Each state has to have a minimum of those five positions but more can be added upon the legislature's approval.
 * 29) States are permitted to legislate on all matters as long as state laws do not contradict the federal Law or constitution. In the case of a contradiction arising from an addition to the federal law or constitution, the state law in question is automatically repealed.
 * 30) Any law passed through the state's legislature can be reviewed by Congress if it overreaches the state's power.
 * 31) If Congress finds a law unconstitutional by voting with a majority that the law is unconstitutional, the law is overturned and no longer is part of the State Law Book.

Fixed several errors (removed parentheses, changed MSL to State Legislature, added missing apostrophes, and removed 51% of majority (generally majority is fine to mean over half), etc.), except those that would change the law significantly. I still don't see how a legislature is necessary to check the governor if the governor has few powers in the first place. The federal Congress already checks the governor. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:32, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

Let's be honest, This does two things, the minimal power of the states is expanded maybe 5% maximum but noe someone checks it who cares more than a Congress. Second, I usually wouldn't care how a state is going but maybe if I have political stake in it, I'd care more. Write a few more pages, work to make a plan for highways there and look more at the cities and how to improve them. I see this more as a chance to improve activity at a state level. Marcus/Michael Villanova 03:11, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Shall we put TM's design to the vote? @TM: State Legislation can be helpful if a Governor does not reach 50% of the votes in a state, cause he would have to make a coalition. Also, it serves as a better voice for the "minority party". --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:19, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

It could be successful in a few states, especially Sylvania, but in more inactive states such as Kings or Clymene, I think the system will just fall apart. the coalition system may be desirable but I think it's too much to have it at the state level. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:58, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't agree. In these "inactive" states, there is only two people running. So, there's always somebody with a 50% majority. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:08, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I just think even if there's one person running and that one person (duh) automatically wins and gets all 10 seats it at least gives him the "reason" to do it whereas before it would just be done without reason. But in the case of Oceana, Sylvania, and Kings (as it stands) there will be people standing in your way and making sure, if you still get that bridge, you did it with you legislature. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:29, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Plus people get to work in two states, not one, so you can help more "inactive" states. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:30, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * That could work, but I think that since the states can do so little at the moment, it wouldn't be able to do anything meaningful. As I said earlier, the governors are already checked by Congress. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:49, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's why we want the State Law back. Governors can do more, Congress can relax a bit when it comes to transportation, nature, and tourism. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:58, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think this is the final time we can get this law across, either it's now or never. I think Oos is for it, i'm for it, But we need to know ASAP. Should we move this second version to the second chamber? Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:04, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * C'mmon give us some feedback, I want this passed. Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:28, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Marcus, are you planning for this to be a constitutional amendment and replace the current state elections section? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:36, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Paraphrasing Marcus: I want the State Legislations to go into effect these elections. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:54, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, i do, This is a change to the consitution and must need 75% (i think right?) this is the former skeleton of the State elections act and i want this election to be the beta Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:20, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

039. Conscientious objection with gay marriage
Gay marriage is allowed in Lovia, alright. What bothers me is the fact that a Governor is obliged to solemnize it. Another thing we discussed earlier: there will be too many marriages to oblige a Governor to solemnize them all. Therefore I propose a change. Original text :
 * 1) The solemnization of a marriage is done in public, before a Lovian governor in the attendance of two witnesses.
 * 2) The marriage must be announced to that governor at least five days and maximum two months on beforehand.
 * 3) At the public solemnization a marriage contract is signed in which both parties agree to its conditions.
 * 1) The marriage must be announced to that governor at least five days and maximum two months on beforehand.
 * 2) At the public solemnization a marriage contract is signed in which both parties agree to its conditions.

First: which governor? It doesn't even say that it should be the Governor of the state in which the marriage is solemnized. Second: a Governor can't refuse a marriage for fundamental reasons. Third: a Governor has more to do that going from marriage party to marriage party. Proposed new text:
 * 1) The solemnization of a marriage is done in publice, before a legal party in the attendance of two witnesses.
 * 2) The legal party should consist of the Governor of the State in which the marriage is solemnized or someone who is appointed by that Governor.'''
 * 3) The marriage must be announced to the State Government at least five days and maximum two months on beforehand.
 * 4) In case a Governor or appointee refuses to solemnize the marriage for fundamental reasons, another person is to be appointed by the Governor to do so instead.
 * 5) If the Governor refuses to appoint someone to solemnize the marriage, the Deputy Governor should appoint someone; if the Deputy Governor refuses as well, the couple can get their marriage solemnized in another state.
 * 6) At the public solemnization a marriage contract is signed in which both parties agree to its conditions.
 * 1) If the Governor refuses to appoint someone to solemnize the marriage, the Deputy Governor should appoint someone; if the Deputy Governor refuses as well, the couple can get their marriage solemnized in another state.
 * 2) At the public solemnization a marriage contract is signed in which both parties agree to its conditions.

Remarks/feedback? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:28, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

What if the Governor refuses to appoint someone to solemnize the marriage in 3.3? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:11, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a good one. We could let the Deputy, Congress or another state's Governor appoint someone (or do it themselves). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:18, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I would say Congress would be excessive. Perhaps the Minister of Culture, Prime Minister, or another minister? Even then, those posts could be held by conservative Christians. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:24, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, changes are very small a deputy will be CC as well as the normal governor. I'd say: if a deputy refuses as well: give them the oppertunity to marry in another state. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:27, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

If there are no further reactions, I'll move this to the 2nd tomorrow. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:29, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

This looks good now. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:17, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks :) We should be tolerant for both freedom of religion and freedom of sexual preference. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:22, September 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * I do not think that governors or any government officials should need to participate in the marriage ritual. — Beer.png <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 18:15, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, it's the current legislation... Any other ideas about it then? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:59, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

040. Proposal to change city law
I'd like to propose a change to the law that says a city has to have five neighborhoods. I always found that this is slightly unrealistic; there aren't (m)any countries where city status is determined by the size (either area or population) of the settlement. Often IRL it's whether the settlement has a cathedral, but it's fair to assume that as Lovia's so atheistic that wouldn't be a realistic criterion.

Another criterion is that settlements are granted city rights, historically by the monarch, but perhaps these days by or with the advice of Congress. I quite like this idea. It's more flexible, and it allows towns to be made cities for reasons of culture or history, instead of just size, which I think is important. --Semyon 15:58, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

Here's the change in the Settlement Act that would be necessary:


 * A town is an unattached settlement within a state.
 * A town must:
 * Have a population above fifteen hundred. If below, the town becomes a village.
 * Contain one to four neighborhoods of any type.
 * A city is an unattached major settlement within a state.
 * A city must:
 * Have a population of at least three thousand.
 * Consist of a group of neighborhoods; at least five.


 * It is legally required that at least four of the five neighborhoods are fully finished and that it is possible for its inhabitants to lead a safe and regular life.
 * Possess an official charter from Congress granting it city rights.
 * Congress can turn a town consisting of four neighborhoods into a city grant any town city rights, by Congressional majority.

I agree. National Settlement Order already prevents Governors from creating too many neighborhoods per town. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:01, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:23, October 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * This looks good, but we should add a provision somewhere to ensure that a settlement of 100 doesn't become a city. In response to your cahtedral idea, that would only work in a country/city of significant age, such as Nieuwromen in Libertas or Grijzestad in Brunant. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 18:35, October 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Congress will prevent that. @age: I would like to remind you that most towns in Lovia are about 120 years old :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 03:10, October 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * I already discarded the cathedral plan, that's why it says 'it's fair to assume that as Lovia's so atheistic that wouldn't be a realistic criterion.' :)


 * I would like to just point something out, kinda funny how we now want the National Settlement Order but back then it wasn't that popular (just saying). Yeah I agree mainly in countries Cities just have neighborhoods, I don't think in Lovia that should mean something different xD. Umm yeah i'm pro mainly because I want to propose a town now. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:19, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

041. Recognizing Thousand Apples as a Town
User:Crystalbeastdeck09/Hamlet Maps has the current layout of the town which has about 3,000+ people living within it. I would like comments, concerns, questions before this moves further and what I can do so this can become an official settlement in Lovia. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:22, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

This is undermining the authority of the Governor, it is a choice to be made by the Governor and not by congress really, what point is there having the position of Governor if you will try to bypass it when I will not give you what you want. This town is far too politcised and doesn't make sense on a historical and cultural matter, I would prefer if it was not only of higher quality but also not pushed through for political reasons. Also we are already facing the problem of Train Village, let that be dealt with before we even think of making new settlements. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 17:29, October 29, 2012 (UTC)