National Archives/Chambers/14 Fourteen

=First Chamber=

042. Bringing back the local police.
I think we should bring back the local police. This would give people who don't want to do politics or do politics as well another opportunity to contribute to Lovia. Only states, cities and Train Village will have their own police service. What do you think.  Happy65   Talk CNP   16:34, November 5, 2012 (UTC)

Not really necessary, as we are a small nation and the police aren't very active once their page has been written. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:44, November 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * The Police Reform that happened a while ago basically brought them back in the form of Local Bureaus. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:46, November 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Haappy you're new but in the past (2010) we had three levels, Federal, State and Local. We eliminated local (though i think we should bring it back as a puppet just because no nation has no local government) government because wereas state governors and federal congressmen were elected and have power written out local mayors (opposing parties and those on the same side) would act like dictators and stop real reform. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:44, November 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Currently the only city that has any local government is Hurbanova, but the government is unofficial, so it doesn't really count. On top of this, the "local government" is just a ceremonial mayor I.E. Oos Wes Llava, and he doesn't do much as mayor. I'm with Marcus though, because as he said, "What country doesn't have local government?" I think the local government should just be a mayor, police force, and firefighters though (a council would be a little excessive as we don't have enough members.) --Quarantine Zone (talk) 23:49, November 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm against them having any power though xD completely cerimonial because what happened is that edit wars happened and nothing could get done. I'm Pro state and federal powers Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:34, November 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I wasn't here when they were abolished, so now that I know that, it would make more sense for them to be simply ceremonial. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 01:47, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

Marcus, we did have a local government, but no local police. I agree that we should bring them back as fake positions, though. Also, Newhaven has an unofficial government of Yuri Medvedev as mayor in addition to Hurb's government. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:24, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

We had a local police for most places, Train Village Police, Noble City Police, but I have to agree we should have a local government that has hardly any power so bigger and local parties expand instead of having to close them all down.  Happy65   Talk CNP   07:42, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

043. Settlement Act Revision
Hi, now that we have a "realistic" population and census style, I think we should make some revisions to the Settlement Act:


 * Lovian settlements are classified into one of these five groups: hamlets, villages, neighborhoods, towns, and cities.
 * Congress must recognize a settlements by a simple majority before the settlement can become an official hamlet, village, neighborhood, town, or city of Lovia.
 * A hamlet is a very small settlement that does not border the urban areas of a more populous settlement.
 * A hamlet must:
 * Have a population of at least ten and at most five hundred.
 * If a hamlet's population drops below ten, it is no longer classified as a settlement.
 * If a hamlet's population rises above five hundred, it is classified as a village.
 * A hamlet may officially affiliate itself with a larger town or city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A hamlet may have a new, bordering, distinct urban area become a neighborhood of the hamlet if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * If a hamlet borders a less populous settlement, the smaller settlement may become a neighborhood of the hamlet if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A village is a small settlement that does not border the urban areas of a more populous settlement.
 * A village must:
 * Have a population of at least five hundred and at most five thousand.
 * If a village's population drops below five hundred, it is classified as a hamlet.
 * If a village's population rises above five thousand, it is classified as a town.
 * A village may officially affiliate itself with a larger town or city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A village may have a new, bordering, distinct urban area become a neighborhood of the village if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * If a village borders a less populous settlement, the smaller settlement may become a neighborhood of the village if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A town is a mid-sized settlement that does not border the urban areas of a more populous settlement.
 * A town must:
 * Have a population of at least five thousand and at most twenty thousand.
 * If a town's population drops below five thousand, it is classified as a village.
 * If a town's population rises above twenty thousand, it is classified as a city.
 * A town may have a village or hamlet affiliate with the town if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A town may have a new, bordering, distinct urban area become a neighborhood of the town if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * If a town borders a less populous settlement, the smaller settlement may become a neighborhood of the town if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A city is a large settlement that does not border the urban areas of a more populous settlement.
 * A city must:
 * Have a population of at least twenty thousand.
 * If a town's population drops below twenty thousand, it is classified as a town.
 * A city may have a village or hamlet affiliate with the city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A city may have a new, bordering, distinct urban area become a neighborhood of the city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * If a city borders a less populous settlement, the smaller settlement may become a neighborhood of the city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A neighborhood is a subdivision of a town or city.
 * A neighborhood must be a distinct urban area of another, larger settlement.
 * In the case that a larger urban area grows and borders a smaller urban area, the smaller settlement may become one or multiple neighborhoods of the larger settlement if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * All settlements in Lovia are managed and built by the state that they are part of.
 * Per the Constitution, Congress may override a decision of the state government by a simple majority.

This would result in many of the current hamlets to become villages or even towns. However, the missing ranks of hamlets and villages would be replaced by those without a page, such as those at User:Kunarian/List of settlements in Sylvania. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:56, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

Your Statement: Why is the village taking the big jump to a city instead of the small jump to a town?  Happy65   Talk CNP   07:27, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * If a village's population rises above five thousand, it is classified as a city.
 * It was a copy error. I fixed it. In general pro. Question: what does "A hamlet may have a new, bordering, distinct urban area become a neighborhood of the hamlet if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority." mean? The way I read it, it sounds like hamlets can have neighborhoods if there is an urban area, but that would be impossible, as hamlets per definition are rural... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:17, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * I did see that earlier. It might seem unrealistic, but in the case that a smaller urban area borders a hamlet that is more populous the area would become a neighborhood, just because it's only logical. Hamlets are also no longer defined as rural anymore, also (they're just supposed to be). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:02, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * I find this very vague... What is this smaller urban area then? Are you saying that if a neighborhood of f.e. Hurb is next to a hamlet which has more inhabitants than that neighborhood, the neighborhood is moved to the hamlet? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:08, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you mean by this, but: say two hamlets grow into each other. If they border, the less populous would become a neighborhood of the more populous. If Hurbanova grew to border a small hamlet, the hamlet would become a neighborhood of Hurbanova. But not until they border. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:10, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * I still find it vague, actually I'd say it's the other-way round, but as it says "may", I'm no longer going to complain :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:16, November 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright, I changed the shoulds to mays. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:06, November 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * i'm more pro than contra for this because with the Realistic Census reform this would be sorta the domino effect afterwards. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:13, November 8, 2012 (UTC)

044. Illegalization of drugs

 * 1) This act makes provision for the regulation of all substances described as 'controlled substances' by Section 1308 of the Code of Federal Regulations, which was created by the US Controlled Substances Act of 1970.
 * 2) Responsible prescription of of all listed substances by a medical practitioner licensed to do so by the Blackburn University School of Medicine is legalized.
 * 3) Possession of listed substances by unlicensed individuals is a criminal offence and may result in prosecution and punishment in accordance with Article 9.7.13.2. of the Constitution, after the Supreme Court Judges have taken advice from two medical practitioners licensed as described in Section 1.1. of this Act.
 * 4) If it can reasonably be established in court that the individual was in possession of listed substances with intent to distribute, the Judges shall take this into account when sentencing.
 * 5) Import, export, distribution, possession, and production of all listed substances shall be exclusive to agencies of the Federal Government or organizations licensed by the Government.
 * 6) In the latter case, Government officials shall supervise at all times import, export, distribution, possession and production by the organization. Failure by the organization to make every accomodation for said government officials shall result in a fine and withdrawal of its license.
 * 7) Any import, export, distribution, possession and production of all listed substances, under conditions other than those described by this Act, is a criminal offence.
 * 8) Any action taken that results in contralegislation under this Act by any party, where a party is defined as the whole or part of an organization, the whole or part of the Government, or a private individual, whether or not the action is undertaken by the contralegislative party, is illegal.
 * 9) Any action taken which is described as illegal under the terms of this Act may result in prosecution and punishment in accordance with Article 9.7.13.2. of the Constitution, after the Supreme Court Judges have taken advice from two medical practitioners licensed as described in Section 1.1. of this Act.
 * 10) Congress, after taking advice from the Blackburn University School of Medicine, retains the right to exempt any listed substance from some or all of the restrictions described in this Act, or to apply the same restrictions, at its discretion, to a non-listed substance.

I apologize for the reference to a US law, but I'm not going to list every possible illegal drug. --Semyon 16:39, November 10, 2012 (UTC)

is this the final version? I find, saying "We based our law off other laws predescribed in other laws not listed here" would get a contra vote from me no matter what situation. List them out. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:02, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, you list them out, if you've got so much spare time on your hands. :P --Semyon 19:05, November 10, 2012 (UTC)

. You know why. ;) —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:15, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't have a clue: the same reason as Marcus, or because you're pro legalization? --Semyon 19:05, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * To continue GAPP's purposeless, and also because I believe that many of these substances don't have a negative effect on society (and all the rest will just be made illegally). I also don't support referencing of US laws. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:17, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

@Marcus: simply state that there is an official separate Lovian list, create an article about it with the same contents as the US law, except maybe cannabis and we're done. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 19:29, November 10, 2012 (UTC)

No xD it's just that he wants to illegalize drugs but doesn't give a list. I just wanna know which ones ^_^ Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:44, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Not sure. That's the problem. I guess it's in the "US Controlled Substances Act of 1970" somewhere. . . —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:49, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

@Marcus: If we said in this law that there is a "Lovian list of illegal drugs" and create an article with that name. In this article, we state that the list is identical to the US list, but we add a separate paragraph indicating that all the drugs like marijuana are excluded from the Lovian list. I'd say: problem fixed. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:10, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

No, not exactly. I want it in writing, in the law. Not on a page later to be changed. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:44, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:34, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Have mercy on the person who has to write the list. I may have mentioned that I study chemistry. Well, there are literally (and I'm using the dictionary definition of 'literally') thousands of chemicals that you can put into your body that will damage you in horrific ways, and possibly give you a high at the same time. What is your problem with referencing the US list? It makes everything so much easier. --Semyon 15:50, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

If you ask me, I think that...  1)The drugs should be listed as illegal or controlled e.g. Illegal (some slang here): Cannabis, Heroine, Cocaine, Meth, LSD, Bath Salts, and Ecstacy. Controlled: Alcohol, Tobacco, Nicotine.   2)Cannabis should be illegal 3)Tobacco, nicotine, and alcohol should be listed in the controlled drugs (If possible, make nicotine and tobacco illegal)  4)We should add over-dosage laws to prevent over-dosing --Quarantine Zone (talk) 02:33, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

User:Ooswesthoesbes/For those unwilling to coorporate --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:19, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

I still don't see why we need the government to outlaw drugs. Smart people will not do them, and since healthcare is out of pocket here, dumb people will have to pay for their rehabilitation. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:28, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but that's rather egoïstic. People can get addicted for a variety of reasons, not all because of their stupidness. You are saying: pay for the consequences or die... As a government, it is our task to protect society - that's the entire society. We should prevent the free distribution of harddrugs (they can be used to overdose people = making murder easier), think about traffic accidents and violence if harddrugs are freely accessible etc... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:38, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed, it is. But people use them anything. All that will happen is the trade will go underground. Outlawing doesn't help, see Prohibition in the US. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:51, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with arguments 'ad prohibition.' Alcohol is now, and was in the 1920s, well-integrated into society, so it's not surprising that a ban simply drove the trade underground. With drugs such as cannibis and heroin, that's not the case, because they don't play a major role in society. By banning them, government still has the power to stop them becoming as integrated as alcohol and nicotine, and in my opinion, should, regardless of the fact that cannabis isn't as harmful or addictive as either. You could still play the libertarian 'what right does the government have to interfere with my life' card, but I'm not a libertarian and I think the government has a duty to protect its citizens, even if it involves taking some freedoms away. Who wants the freedom to damage their bodies with strange chemicals anyway? --Semyon 15:50, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * What right does the government have to interfere with my life? Sorry, couldn't resist. In my opinion, banning cannabis but not alcohol and tobacco is hypocrisy. If the government has a duty to protect its citizens, why should it only "protect" them against some substances and not others? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:54, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, my argument is that a governmental ban would be successful in protecting citizens in the case of cannabis, but a ban on alcohol and tobacco would not protect citizens but actually worsen the situation. --Semyon 18:18, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * (I'll give in to using colons. This time.) I'd advise you to take a look at the Drug War in the US right now. It's a moderate failure. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:21, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

(Counter-concession :P) The US has a notoriously harsh drug policy (and criminal justice policy in general.) What you've said doesn't convince me that drug illegalization would fail, just that drug illegalization implemented in a excessively harsh way will fail. :P I support a lenient approach for 'soft drugs' at least. --Semyon 18:49, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

This should be an example of a typical politcial argument for new users :P  Happy65   Talk CNP   19:17, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

It should! Anyway, I still don't see why illegalization is needed. Why not just tax and regulate? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:20, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

I am not going to argue in this argument because it is too much of an argument for me to argue with.  Happy65   Talk CNP   19:28, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, arguably. :P --Semyon 22:39, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Still, I'm sorry to say so, but this is the law we need :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:05, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

I don't speak Limburgish in the slightist and can't find an online translator to get a basic meaning, so could you translate it? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:16, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Which part? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:28, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * The drug law in its entirety. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:41, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ow :P I'll do a translation either today, tomorrow, or the day-after-tomorrow (the last being most likely :P) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:49, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

6c. Regulated concerning drugs

 * 1) With drugs substances are meant which have an addictive working and by the user are taken in for "enlightening" (don't know the English word :P) reasons.
 * 2) For safety and health reasons there are several restrictions in place for drugs, which differ by kind.
 * 3) Tobacco (no sell/use below 15, no use on public areas)
 * 4) Booze (no sell below 15, unless municipality gives it free under circumstances, such as national holidays/until 5%: 15+, until 15%: 16+: 15% or more: 18+)
 * 5) Weed/marijuana (use: 16+, buy: 18+, 16+ may have up to three plants for own production)
 * 6) Harddrugs are substances with an empacifying or spirit-enlarging/refreshing working which have an addictive side-effect.
 * 7) Possession, use or selling of harddrugs is not allowed.
 * 8) Some products with the same working have been excepted for cultural reasons. These products are:
 * 9) Drinks such as tea and coffee and other products containing cafeïne.
 * 10) Freely available medicins such as acetylcysteïne (=aspirine).
 * 11) Things containing alcohol, nicotine or tetrahydrocannabinol.
 * 12) Calming or sleep-bringing things with benzodiapine.
 * 13) For ritual purposes is the use of the mushroom Psilocybe semilanceata allowed.
 * 14) Medical personel and other licensed people are an exception to the harddrug section and may use forbidding substances responsibly.

Quick translation with bad English, you'll get the point. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 20:13, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

I'd say: Change 15 to 16 (16 is square and a multiple of 4), and keep regulation against second hand smoke for tobacco. Also, change "booze" to alcohol, as booze is slang. What about soft drugs? Tobacco and Alcohol are not regulated enough, and Marijuana could be reduced a bit. Up to three plants? So we're going to allow an industry for tobacco but only three plants per person for marijuana. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:52, November 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, the alcohol and tobacco legislation is already done in Lovia (that's why I only summarized it in the translation, "booze" being a quick translation for "alcoholic beverage" :P). In Mäöres, the Christians decided to trade in strict drug laws for strict marriage laws, so sometimes it might be edgy :P
 * The main idea for the translation was the last part. If Lovia would take this over, there's no need for a long list from the US law. Simply disregard Mäöres's loose alcohol-, tobacco-, and marijuana law :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:08, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

I think that the word you are looking to use in place of 'enlightenment' is 'high'. I disagree with this law though because it is too vague as of now. There are plenty, and I mean plenty of other drugs besides alcohol, herbs and over the counter medicines. Plus I don't like how you're trying to ban basically all addictive drugs, it seems kind of lazy. Aside from that, I think that this can be developed into something much more complete but it will probably take some time. Good work though so far, — Christopher Costello  (Pikapi • Chat  • What's up ) 02:15, November 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * "high" indeed :P It would help us a lot if you could name a few drugs that shouldn't be illegal, but are illegal now, because of this law. Anyway, in Mäöres, we've been thinking of adding a line which involves prescriptions, so that if a medical guy gives you a prescription, you may take in drugs that are generally forbidden. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:39, November 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Perfect. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:41, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

045. Federal Law: Criminal Law Book: Article 3 - Firearms Act, revision
I felt that the law on firearms has some flaws and am proposing a revision to be added to the law and certain sections to be repealed. My main reasoning in this is for some loop holes and over-looked hunting regulation. The biggest thing I saw was that hunters had to be 21; however, many who are under this age love to hunt, e.g. me. Also, only being able to hunt 24 times spread out over the year isn't much of a window. Certain times are much better for hunting than others, and thus hunters must hunt during these times rather than others, and hunt many more than 2 times in a month (I hunt many more than 2 times in November). The loop holes were mostly in some over-looked firearms, e.g. knives and bows.


 * 1) Concealed weapons licenses must be obtained in order to own sheathed knives over 6 inches in length, guns under 12 inches in length (including knife guns), and ballistic knives.
 * 2) All owners must be 24 years of age.
 * 3) Ballistic knives and sheath knives are not considered fire arms.
 * 4) Licenses can only be granted to hunters who are of 12 years of age, but all firearms used by anyone under the age of 18 must be legally registered to their legal parents and/or guardians.
 * 5) Licenses can only be granted to hunters whose firearm is fit for hunting; thus only handguns, rifles of 50-caliber or fewer, shotguns of 10-gauge and greater, cross bows, hunting bows, and spears are allowed.
 * 6) All automatic weapons are illegal, except in the case of an official government military, militia, or police.
 * 7) Switchblade knives are illegal to manufacture, trade, sell, buy, and own.
 * 8) Bayonets are illegal to manufacture, trade, sell, and buy.
 * 9) Bullets containing poison, napalm, toxins, and explosives are illegal to manufacture, trade, buy, sell, and own, except in the case of an official government military, militia, or police.
 * 10) In the case of an official government, military, militia, or police, chemical explosives are still illegal.
 * 11) Hunters are legally bound to register with the Ministry of Defense annually to renew their hunting license. Once licenses are renewed, said hunters are legally aloud to hunt for the year.
 * 12) Hunters may only hunt a total of 24 times a year.
 * 13) Hunters must register with the Ministry of Defense at least 36 hours in advance in order to go hunting.
 * 14) All hunters are required to wear a bright orange hat. If the color of the hat is challenged to not be bright orange, a court case may be held to determine this.
 * 15) The fine for this will be 200 Lovian dollars. If they hat is orange, but deemed not bright orange, the fine will be 90 Lovian dollars.
 * 16) Newly manufactured items that have a similar look or use to firearms are required to have orange tips to signify that they are not legally firearms.
 * 17) This includes but is not limited to water guns, airsoft guns, paintball guns, pellet guns, BB guns, and model guns.
 * 18) The following sections of Article 3 of the Criminal Law Book are repealed:
 * 19) Section 1.2.2.2 "Licenses can only be granted to hunters who have reached the age of twenty-one on the day the license is to be granted."
 * 20) Section 1.2.2.6 "Licenses can only be granted to hunters whose firearm is fit for hunting; thus only handguns, rifles and shotguns are allowed."
 * 21) Section 1.2.6 "Hunters are legally bound to register with the Minister of Defense, at least one week in advance, if and when they are willing to hunt in group, that is three or more hunters, all of which must have a license to carry a firearm, and no more than twice a month."

--Quarantine Zone (talk) 04:02, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

Comments

 * Ten years of age? I don't believe it's responsible to give a gun to a ten-year old kid... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:13, November 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Most firearm injuries aren't among he younger hunters. In America it's 10 years of age and there haven't been any troubles. I could raise to something like 14, but there's no reason a 10 year old couldn't. They'd have to pass the test still, so it would be safe. 21 was just way to high seeing as the hunting community largely made up of those under that age. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 17:59, November 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not speaking about accidental injuries. I'm more concerned about the fact that teen-agers who know how the handle weapons and who have ready-access to them, use them for massacres, as is very common in the USA. We don't have these situations in the Benelux and I believe that's all because of a more restricted fire arms law. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:53, November 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * America also doesn't require any licenses to own fire arms, and the teenagers would have the same access whether they had the license or not, because it requires their parents to own the gun either way, so this revision wouldn't add Ny problems as such. The license for them would simply allow them to hunt --Quarantine Zone (talk) 20:11, November 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't like the idea of switchblades and bayonets being made illegal to own, nor do I think that it should be necessary to request a hunting license from the Minister of Defense directly. Aside from those things, its certainly an improvement. — Beer.png Christopher Costello (Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 00:40, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * You raise some good points however I have too many problems with this and the Ministry of Defense should disperse licenses not the Minister I agree however the points on bayonets and switchblades need to be expanded upon where you want to go with this and manufacture of weapons needs to be dealt with too. This needs to be written up properly before it can be moved anywhere too. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 00:57, November 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * The minister/ministry thing was a typo... I'll fix that. It should say ministry. The reason for switchblades and bayonets being illegal was for safety reasons. Switchblades are only good for offensive killing, so there's really no reason to have one. People can still buy spring assisted knives for quick drawing. Bayonets are generally thought of as cruel in modern warfare currently, because they usually lead to slow painful deaths. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 02:11, November 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * I see what you mean, but I'd consider taking a different approach. How about it would be illegal to buy, sell or transport them instead of to own them in general? It would be upsetting to have to get rid of a bayonet that is an old collectible or a family heirloom. — Beer.png <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 03:40, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

I agree that switchblades and bayonets are unfavorable, but one can argue: guns also lead to slow painful deaths and have safety hazards. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:59, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

I see we've got the fire arms loving side of the world in Lovia. I'm going to have to oppose this :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:06, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

If you really wish to allow "children" to go hunting, would it make sense to have each juvenile, prior to receiving a hunting permit, undergo a obligatory test to "screen" on their behavorial in stress situations? Als I would love to find out how many of these "children" are playing war-games, are there any statistics on that? Aesopos (talk) 10:39, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

There are some statistics on children playing war games, but I don't think there are any on children playing war games and hunting. Besides they wouldn't even be able to take the test without their parents permission... Most hunting accidents are due to people not wearing reflective gear, fluorescent orange, or lights at night or shooting at people that look like animals. Safety courses cover the above, but people are still stupid enough to do it. The hunter safety courses cover a lot more than you think. We could make exceptions to relic bayonets. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 13:24, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

I don't support allowing "children" to go hunting. At least where I live, there are far too many hunting accidents already, even in situations where you'd think it'd be extremely implausible. 77topaz (talk) 03:09, November 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ok, I edited the ages to 12 years of age and 24. 12 is the high end of when boys hit puberty (for girls it is 11). This should make the hunters more responsible, and 24 is the high end of when men become mature. This should make the gun owners more responsible. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 01:52, November 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm against guns, (entirely), but knowing that is a tad unpopular would allow for Hunting rifiles (like something with like four bullets and takes a minute or two to reload. Hate the entire idea of weapons and guns. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:53, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * In some ways it's more restrictive than original law. Although, most of the more restrictive parts were loophole fixes. It simply didn't make sense for only people who were 21 years old to be able to hunt. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 23:29, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

When voting opens at 9:00 GMT you'll have to leave this act until voting ends, but just to quickly say that the bright orange hat with hunters isn't exactly a good idea and hunters most certainly won't like it, you need to think about visibility in general without making hunters visible to the point where there's no point hunting and believe me a bright orange hat does that. :L also there's some issues with model guns, bows and spears needing orange tips... first of all need I say antiques... according to this all antiques will need orange tips which if you ask me is mental and probably damaging to antiques. I think this could go somewhere but it needs to be looked over one more time but anyways, keep an eye on that time and good luck in the elections! :D Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 00:44, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

Kunarian, being a hunter myself, i know that a bright orange hat will not affect your camouflage. Most animals are colorblind and therefore can not tell that this is bright orange. In Michigan, it is a law to wear an orange hat. It protects other hunters from thinking you're a deer. I have found that deer see you less than you would think, and they hear you more than you would think. Frequently deer cease to see you even by just standing still and not making sound. Also, it's just a hat, and you can buy bright orange camouflage, it's orange so people see it still, but animals have no idea. I fixed the orange tips :) Now it says newly manufactured items. I'm still working out some loopholes. --Quarantine Zone (talk)

046. Ministry of Intelligence
Sorry, but as a small and neutral nation, I think that the Ministry of Defense will be sufficient for covering matters of national security, including intelligence. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:03, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

I think that the Ministry of Defense is fine also; although, I simply don't want more government expansion. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 03:05, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

We don't need a Minister of Intelligence because there aren't terrorist and dangerous people in Lovia and I don't think state secrets too. We can have private investitators. Granero (talk) 03:17, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

I'm all for lessening government, but if the government is to advance or be taken seriously at all in a modern world, I think that we'll need little changes like this. Plus, its just plain awesome. Something that some of you politicians wouldn't recognize if it pulled down your black suit trousers and ran off with them. Besides Time, whats the point of an alliance if we can't ever compromise and support the other party? — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello  (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 03:45, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

Well, it does say that it would be a government agency, so it'd be okay to have an intelligence section of the Federal Police. The coalition is mainly for economics, also. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:49, November 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, but you are only seeing half of my above proposal. The foremost job of the service would be to inform Lovian policymakers, a responsibility completely unrelated to policing or war. I'm sure that we could make it a little more clear that the MoI is not bent on warfare by making its primary responsibility overtly and internally maintaining national censuses and performing surveys of the Lovia community. This would be very beneficial in instances where we are looking to draw accurate numbers and statistics to base general studies and graphs on. We currently don't have any agency purposed with this responsibility, and it would be nice to have one. — Beer.png <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 20:52, November 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * I already don't like the huge amount of ministers we have at the moment however they each serve a vital role and so unless I can work out a nice and comfortable way of combining them then I won't be changing them, so at the moment another ministry is out of the question at the moment. Also statistics are almost always collected by the Ministry/Department concerned, in real life and in Lovia, I see no need for a secret service/intelligence gathering/statistics Ministry however I understand what you are trying to do. Besides the Federal Investigations Bureau covers this area in the manners of a less secret secret service and as a way to gather intelligence. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:11, November 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Who say's youre in charge of the ministries? Not trying to start another argument here, but congress is charge of them. Getting back on topic, I agree with both Granero and Kunarian, We don't have signinficant threats to marit having an intelligence agency and the police is more than capable of carrying out such duties if necessary. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 21:25, November 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * @Horton: I'm not, personally I was talking about legislating for less Ministries so don't get your knickers in a twist about it. Also I'm glad we agree on this matter of the proposed MoI. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:45, November 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * You made it very clear that it was you who would be changing them. I personally have no problem with adding a new ministry, but it would have to be purely statistics as opposed to intelligence. But what about a sub-department or institute in charge of this? No need to expand the ministries and it would give a very lucky minister more work to do! HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 21:54, November 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes I made it clear that I might lead an initiative to reduce the amount of Ministries through legislation. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:08, November 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * And what about my idea of making sub-departmental offices in charge of things like statistics? HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 22:10, November 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't really know, I like the idea of indpendent statistic comapnies and on top of that, it's just more bureaucracy adding in an official office for something we do fine now anyways. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:25, November 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well this would be the Ministry concerned with statistical analysis and social studies, except the name 'Ministry of Intelligence' seems a little more suitable than 'Ministry of Statistical Analysis and Social Studies'. We do not necessarily have to use it for covert purposes, and I am proposing that we make the MoI's purpose making graphs and handeling the census and surveys and generally "maintaining national information." In times of war, if we ever have a civil war again, I'm just saying that it would be key to separate national intelligence from the Ministry of Defense in order to provide a balance of powers, but that would hardly be the ministry's primary purpose. Also, Kunarian, you are not in charge of the ministries so I do not believe that your decision will be the deciding one on wether or not you will be "changing them." I'm with Horton here. :P — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 21:27, November 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * From your original post, I get that the MoI is concerned with intelligence and not surveying. If you want to collect census data and statistics, then Ministry of Statistics might be a better name. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 21:34, November 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, but its responsibilities would still generally be considered 'intelligence gathering'. I plan on getting around to re-formulating my original post before formally presenting it in the Second Chamber, so you can expect a much more professional and less-militaristic product. I really wouldn't get hung up over a name, so please don't insist that I rename this the Ministry of Statistics. :P — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 22:06, November 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Intelligence-gathering and statistics are two different things. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 22:10, November 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Eh... yes, but it would gather intelligence in a non-harmful way and use this knowledge to base statistics. It might also be responsible for withholding some knowledge from the public (hence the need for some covertness, horrible to consider I know, but something that even the smallest and most transparent of governments consider necessary, and if this responsibility is separated from the mainline government, we'd only be making things fairer and more balanced). How is this?

— <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 22:38, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

I'll just voice again that statistics should be gathered by the individual ministries, governors and independent statistics companies. It's a better way to go, it's how it's done everywhere else and is simple. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 22:43, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

It seems much better now but I'd agree that the statistic gathering would most likely be done by states or other ministries, such as Commerce or Labour. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:32, November 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Its like the moment I share my dreams with you people you take aim at them. :P — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 23:36, November 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * On a more serious note, Lovia does have its own terrorist organization, the Protect Yourselves, courtesy of Masterire. The MoI is capable of counter-terrorism, you know. — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 23:39, November 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Can be handled by the police, very easily in fact. Also @Time: statistic gathering in my opinion should be done not by any specific ministry, there's no need for it, in fact it makes more sense to have it left to be done freely. I as the minister of defence if I wanted can easily create realistic weapon ownership statistics or crime statistics, etc. if I want and so can anyone else really, making an official statistics ministry kind of pointless. I personally feel that producing this data should be left officially (as in statistics are declared official only when made) to the Ministries that specialise in the area they are producing data for, not only will this mean that it is more realistic (this is how it works all around the world) but also it will mean that Ministers have an extra bit of responsibility (just like the governors do) which is good and healthy for government. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:55, November 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't see the need for a whole ministry to do this. I'm with the idea for having it be part of the police. Less government! --Quarantine Zone (talk) 00:02, November 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm also against the Mol. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 08:25, December 1, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not against it in the generalities but I think it would be better broken up and under other ministries. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:28, December 1, 2012 (UTC)

Article 1 - Settlement Act

 * Article 1 - Settlement Act
 * All territory over which the Lovian Government and King has authority is classified as either rural or urban.
 * A district is defined as the smallest legally recognized subdivision of rural territory.
 * Districts may not contain territory under the jurisdiction of two or more separate states.
 * District boundaries are set by the Governor of the relevant state.
 * Boundaries, where possible, should have a basis in the historical and geographical features of the territory, but this is not mandatory.
 * Boundaries should, in general, be subject only to infrequent and minor change.
 * A settlement is defined as a continuous area with a significantly higher population density than the surrounding area, and having a population of over ten.
 * The population of a settlement is considered to be the number of people who have a primary residence within the built-up areas.
 * In the case that the settlement has a population of less than five hundred, it is classified as a hamlet.
 * Hamlets are classified as a rural area and hence form part of a district.
 * If a hamlet's population drops below ten, it is no longer classified as a settlement.
 * If a hamlet's population rises above five hundred, it is classified as a village.
 * A hamlet may officially affiliate itself with a larger town or city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * In the case that a settlement has a population of over five hundred, it is classified as a major settlement.
 * Major settlements are classified into one of these four groups: villages, neighborhoods, towns, and cities.
 * Congress must recognize a major settlement by a simple majority before the settlement can become an official hamlet, village, neighborhood, town, or city of Lovia.
 * A village is a small settlement that does not border the urban areas of a more populous settlement.
 * A village must:
 * Have a population of at least five hundred and at most five thousand.
 * If a village's population drops below five hundred, it is classified as a hamlet.
 * If a village's population rises above five thousand, it is classified as a town.
 * A village may officially affiliate itself with a larger town or city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A village may have a new, bordering, distinct urban area become a neighborhood of the village if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * If a village borders a less populous settlement, the smaller settlement may become a neighborhood of the village if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A town is a mid-sized settlement that does not border the urban areas of a more populous settlement.
 * A town must:
 * Have a population of at least five thousand.
 * If a town's population drops below five thousand, it is classified as a village.
 * A town may have a village or hamlet affiliate with the town if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A town may have a new, bordering, distinct urban area become a neighborhood of the town if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * If a town borders a less populous settlement, the smaller settlement may become a neighborhood of the town if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A city is a settlement that does not border the urban areas of a more populous settlement.
 * A city must:
 * Have a population of at least five hundred.
 * If a town's population drops below twenty thousand, it is classified as a hamlet.
 * Possess a city charter, authorised by:
 * Congress, with a simple majority.
 * The ruling monarch, in the case that city rights were obtained before 2003.
 * A city may have a village or hamlet affiliate with the city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A city may have a new, bordering, distinct urban area become a neighborhood of the city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * If a city borders a less populous settlement, the smaller settlement may become a neighborhood of the city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A neighborhood is a subdivision of a major settlement.
 * A neighborhood must be a distinct urban area of the settlement.
 * In the case that a larger urban area grows and borders a smaller urban area, the smaller settlement may become one or multiple neighborhoods of the larger settlement if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * All settlements in Lovia are managed and built by the state that they are part of.
 * Each major settlement recognized by Congress must be added to the National Settlement Order.
 * Each hamlet recognized by the Governor must be added to the relevent State Settlement Order.
 * Per the Constitution, Congress may override a decision of the state government to build new settlements by a simple majority.

Comments
Here's some proposed revisions to the settlement act. Some key features are: I don't know if the law should be renamed, perhaps to 'Settlement and Territory Act' or 'Settlement and District Act.' There are a few minor things which perhaps I've forgotten or should be changed, but in general I hope this is acceptable. :) --Semyon 11:11, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Recognition of districts officially.
 * Districts are explicitly classified as rural, so urban areas, except for hamlets, are not part of a district.
 * City rights are decoupled from population, as we (mostly) agreed earlier. From now on, Beaverwick could become a city, with the agreement of congress.
 * Hamlets now refers to settlements such as Dien in Oceana, Severnybana in Sylvania, or Malwick in Seven. I can't very well say this in the law. :P
 * On a quick review --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:14, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

. I prefer coupling city rights with population. Otherwise. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:03, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

TM, I thought you supported the change to city rights thing? (obviously you're allowed to change your mind, I'm just wondering.) I'm wondering if it might be worth coming to some sort of compromise, because I find it rather absurd that a settlement might have 19000 people one year, then up to 21000 the next, and then back down again, changing back and forth from town to city. --Semyon 13:24, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I don't want Congress to be able to name any old settlement a city. Maybe a significantly lower (but still rather high) requirement and a charter? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:11, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm confused by section 9... and said populations are rather low. If the populations were raised slightly, and section 9 was cleared up, then I'd be fine with it. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 20:06, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Taxation Act 2012
Here's the proposal we've all been waiting for:

048. Article 9 - Taxation Act

 * Article 9.1 - Income Tax Act
 * Every individual of 16 years of age or older must pay Income Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Income Tax and an individual must:
 * be earning income as defined below and must have resided within Lovia's national borders during the tax year; or
 * be a Lovian citizen earning income as defined below and must be earning income from an individual or corporation which resides within Lovia's national borders:
 * in this case only the income gained from the individual or corporation that resides within Lovia's national borders is eligible for tax.
 * Income is the sum total of:
 * wage and salaries:
 * wages, salaries and tips recieved by an individual for performing a service for another individual or entity or from another individual or corporation they are employee of; and
 * minus any wages, salaries or tips that an individual has given to another individual for being an employee of the concerned individual.
 * pensions:
 * pensions or annuity payments recieved by an individual from another individual or corporation;
 * minus any pensions or annuity payments that an individual has given to another individual; and
 * pensions and annuity payments are fixed payments over a specified or unspecified period of time.
 * capital gains:
 * capital gains received by an individual from another individual or corporation; and
 * capital gains are the profits gained by buying and then selling property, shares or bonds.
 * lump sums:
 * lump sums received by an individual from another individual or corporation;
 * minus any lump sums that an individual has given to another individual; and
 * lump sums are single payments of money.
 * rental income:
 * rental income recieved by an individual from another individual or corporation;
 * minus any rent that an individual has given to another individual; and
 * rental income is when a payment is made for the temporary use of a good, service or property owned by another individual.
 * dividends:
 * dividends recieved by an individual from a corporation; and
 * dividends are payments made by a corporation to its shareholder members.
 * Income Tax required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individuals income and levying a set percentage which goes to the Ministry of Finance:
 * the first thirty thousand lovian dollars of income are exempt from this levy;
 * the next four hundred and seventy thousand lovian dollars of income has twenty eight percent levied; and
 * all other income has thirty eight percent of the total levied.
 * Income Tax can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Income Tax for individuals;
 * however individuals have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Income Tax;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * Evading, distributing income to others for the main purpose of reducing the amount of tax paid or otherwise failing to pay Income Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Article 9.2 - Property Tax Act
 * Every individual or corporation who owns property or land as defined by law within Lovia must pay Property Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Property Tax an individual or corporation must:
 * own property or land within Lovia's national borders.
 * Property is:
 * the combination of land and an improvement that has been built upon said land; and
 * to avoid confusion property is measured in square metres by taking the length between the furthest points along the width of the improvement and multiplying them by the length between the furthest points along the length of the improvement.
 * Land is:
 * land that has not had an improvement built upon it; and
 * to avoid confusion land is measured in square metres.
 * Property Tax on property required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individual or corporations measured property and levying a set amount which goes to the Ministry of Finance depending on the amount of measured property owned:
 * the first two hundred and fifty square metres are exempt from this levy; and
 * all other property has a levy of fifty Lovian cents per square metre
 * Property Tax on land require to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individual or corporations measured land and levying a set amount which goes to the Ministry of Finance depending on the amount of measured property owned:
 * the first four thousand square metres are exempt from this levy; and
 * all other land has a levy of five cents per square metre:
 * unless the land is under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service or is being used for agricultural purposes, in which case all other land has a levy of one cent per square metre.
 * Property Tax can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Property Tax for individuals and corporations;
 * however individuals and corporations based in Lovia have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Property Tax;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual or corporation with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * Evading or otherwise failing to pay Property Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Article 9.3 - Import Tariff Act
 * Every individual or corporation who brings goods from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders must pay Import Tariffs should they be defined by law as eligible to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Import Tariffs an individual or corporation must:
 * have brought goods from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders with the intention of making direct or indirect monetary gain from those goods within Lovia's national borders:
 * only the goods that monetary gain is intended to be gained from within the national borders of Lovia are eligible for tariffs.
 * Individuals or corporations who have brought goods brought from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders must register the goods with customs officers:
 * failure to register all the goods that have been imported due to either intent or by negligence is illegal:
 * failure to register all the goods that have been imported can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Import Tariffs are required to be paid on all the following described imported goods when they are first sold within Lovia's national borders:
 * agricultural goods:
 * crops, plants, animals, woods, fish and aquacultures.
 * mining goods:
 * coals, lignites, crude petroleum, natural gas's, metal ores, stones, sands, clays, chemicals, minerals, peats and salts.
 * manufactured goods:
 * processed meats, processed fish, processed aquaculture, processed crops, oils, fats, dairy products, beverages and tobacco products.
 * textiles, apparel, leather products, wood products and paper products.
 * printed media products and recorded media products.
 * coke, petroleum products, chemical products, pharmaceutical products, rubber products and plastic products.
 * mineral products, processed metals, metal products, electronic products and optical products.
 * Worth is:
 * the amount of Lovian Dollars the good is sold for.
 * Import Tariffs required to be paid is calculated by taking the worth of the imported goods when sold and levying a set percentage which goes to the Ministry of Finance:
 * all worth has an exclusive levy of ten percent.
 * Import Tariffs can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Import Tariffs for individuals;
 * however individuals have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Import Tariffs;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual with the documentation to file their own tariffs.
 * Evading or otherwise failing to pay Import Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.

Comments
We've already had input from all around the table and it's essential that we get at least these basic laws passed now. Also may I just say at rough estimates this act is expected to bring in around 4 billion in taxes revenue (thanks mainly to the large amount of land to tax and the large amount of wealth this nation produces) so that'd be around 330 million per month in spending (not minusing having to pay people and supply government ministries and operations such as the police) in the end I think, despite deductions, we'll have plenty to reinvest into executive actions. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 01:35, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

It's really long, so I'll read it over the next few hours. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:38, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Looks good, I'd say: Make the lists a bit simpler and use fewer semi colons. Use more capital letters. And add some protections for farmers in property tax. I'd also leave out National Insurance for now. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:55, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I'll add in that tax on land used for agricultural purposes is lowered and I'm not going to leave out NI because it's essential to funding whatever health system we choose to operate under. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 10:40, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how you could leave the punishment for failing to pay taxes up to the judge to decide. — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 02:28, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's just how Lovian law works take a look at other parts of it, besides unreasonable sentences and judgements can be appealed. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 10:40, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

On quick review: looks good! :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:06, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

^ <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   09:15, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

If no one majorly objects I'll move this to the second chamber. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 10:40, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I like the lowered taxes on the property. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 21:31, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Semyon's comments
--Semyon 14:07, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Overall, not bad. :)
 * 2) Some minor spelling errors though which I shall fix.
 * 3) First off, I'm a bit wary about subtracting monies given to others from income tax. Take 9.1.2.1.2. - does it mean you don't have to pay tax on the money you use to pay for your haircut? Definitely 9.1.4.1.2. is controversial, because it makes "I'll just give you this present of $30000 which you don't have to pay tax on, dear, and you can give it back on March 2nd, savvy?" tax avoidance very easy.
 * 4) Property tax - I've done some research/calculations (with wheat, for simplicity) and they scare me a bit. At five cents per square metre, 4047 square metres per acre, 45 bushels of wheat per acre, 42 pounds of white flour per bushel and 2.2 pounds per kilogram, farmers will pay 23 cents of tax on every kilogram of flour they produce. Obviously farmers won't just bear the cost themselves, they'll sell for more, and the rise in price will work its way through to the bread on the shelf, so I really don't see why it's not just another form of VAT.
 * 5) Property tax again - will there be exemptions for the NPS?
 * 6) Import tax - I can agree with this part, but I don't understand 9.3.5.1.

1. good

2. righto

3. not really because a) that would require the other person to agree and actually give you your money back b) if you're going to give someone a lump sum like that for a legitimate reason then it shouldn't really be considered part of your income, especially in the case of giving wages or salaries. Also I just realised no, paying for your haircut like that wouldn't count as a wage or salary but a tip, as a tip is a sum of money for a service performed an that isn't exempt.

4. because it's for all land and property, any taxes can increase the price of goods but that doesn't mean we see them as                VAT. besides the tax is meant to ensure that land isn't just horded and to incentivise farming. It's also useful at filling up the coffers an extra bit more.

5. Maybe, didn't think it to be necessary but I'll put one in.

6. I think I just made a little error there that's all. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 14:45, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

@3: of course it would be difficult to do, but it's still very plausible. Imagine a man earns $60000 and his wife stays at home and looks after the kids. There's nothing to stop him giving $30000 to her as a 'lump sum,' seeing as he already pays for her board and lodging anyway. This would be counted as part of her income according to the proposal, and therefore neither would have to pay income tax as they both have an income of $30000. About the legitimate reason: I agree, but the law doesn't specify that a legitimate reason is needed. Payment for a haircut would never be counted as a tip in everyday use, and although legally 'tip' might potentially have a different definition, it's not stated in the law. @4: I see your point, but as one of the effects of this law would be identical to that of VAT I don't see that my criticism is unjust, particularly as you criticised VAT so strongly earlier for being regressive. --Semyon 16:02, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * @3 what do you suggest we do, add in a 'if this is done with the intention of avoiding tax then...' clause to that part of the law? I would be for that if you think it is necessary. @4 it's a valid criticism, however the effects would not be identical and we could simply lower the tax again if need be. Also there is a difference in effect with VAT and this tax is that this tax has a purpose greater than simply to raise income and we can increase exclusion or lower tax to affect how much the price falls to the poor, VAT however is largely just to raise income (except for with drug products) and is rather indiscriminate in who the tax falls upon. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:26, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * @3 - I'd suggest adding the line 'Distribution of income to others with the sole or main purpose of reducing the amount of tax paid is illegal.' which hopefully sorts the problem. :) @haircuts: could we clarify that money paid for a service or something else has to be to an employee of the individual in order for the transaction to be tax-exempt? @4 - it's a tricky one, but I won't vote against the law just for that. --Semyon 21:19, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * @3 Done and dusted. @haircuts done and dusted. @4 I'm glad, believe me I'm not a fan of taxes at all but property tax has been lowered for farmers so that I think it's only a 4 cent increase for each kilogram of flour now. So really it's such a small increase most farmers won't raise their prices I wouldn't think, a good amount will though may just because but still at least it's a lot less now also the NPS thing has been added in too. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:13, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not voting pro until National Insurance Tax is removed. There's nothing that it's used for now, so just remove it. Then we can add it, if we agree to it, later. Some of us want a Beveridge or Bismarck model of healthcare, not an NI, also. Just leave it out! —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:38, December 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Labour were the ones who proposed adding it in and in the nature of compromise I added it. Also it was generally agreed to and an NI tax would be used to fund a beveridge model too btw. And if it comes into action now it would fund Hortons nationalised hospitals in Clymene. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:44, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * We do need to be able to pay for Lovia's healthcare, but one thing to consider is we already have an National Health Serrvice in the law, but i'm not sure who much its specifies. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:43, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * We do but it's only specified to run government owned hospitals and clinics and advise the government, it's run by the Ministry of Health, which is why this tax goes directly to the ministry of health for them to distribute. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:46, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * See I LOVE THIS LAw, and the action taken. But If you could propose it without the tax rates i'd vote 100% pro. First pass the frame and how to collect taxes, and then we can have the debat eover tax rates and such. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:21, December 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * It's already in the second chamber, cannot be changed. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 18:28, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I see that, and which is why i was alerted to see it was so quickly put their. I'm in, practice, for. I think some of the more minor details around property tax and such was been recognized and changed...good. But I think the outline should passed when talking about collecting and having a tax system with different taxes, but the rates i dissagree with, and would then vote contra. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:30, December 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * @Marcus: Don't worry. It's returning back to the first chamber. Lukas said. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 18:33, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * P.S. Also (am i jumping the gun?) can we also have a sales tax? I don't like a VAT (i don't understand it to be honest) and seems to be too overbearing on the middle class, but a small sales tax would be fine. Also (again jumping the gun) allow states and there councils to pass a "State tax" on income and property, up to let's say 5% to finance their respective budgets, and control the issue of sales tax? Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:35, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Write your own law on that please. Focus on the one we currently have, as in federal taxes on income, property and imports. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 18:45, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Seems like all essential bits of legislation this will not get passed due to people being obsessed at only getting their point through, one of the necessary minuses of a coalition government. P.S. this is not aimed at the more constructive criticism of Semyon. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 18:44, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I remember when we discussed NI tax now. It's acceptable. Income and NI are two separate taxes calculated the same way, though? :/ Also: Please use fewer semi colons, more capital letters, shorter sentences (if you need a longer one, put it in a subsection, so, if 5.2.3 is too long, put part of it into 5.2.3.1 and 5.2.3.2, etc.), and remove all the "to avoid confusion" (just remove the phrase, keep the following sentence). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:36, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll make the simplifications asap however on grammar, I was writing it to be more like the way real law works. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 20:33, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Idea: merge Income and NI taxes into a single tax that is between the two in progressiveness. It'd be simpler, and we can simply budget money to the SSF, giving us more freedom. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:59, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * True however the idea was made as a compromise between those who wanted flat tax and progressive taxes, the money that would be used to pay for more leftist ideas would be paid progressively and the income tax would remain flat. While I agree about the freedom point I think that for this point it's good to have this separation to unify the congress and to help agreement. Although considering the forceful actions of those the compromise was made for, I may go along with that idea. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 20:33, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * True, but you said you want this to pass? Right? A compromise would be Combining Income and NI tax to one. Creating two brackets: Those making 0-35k, at 0%, those 36k-250k at 25%, those making more at 30%. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:59, December 23, 2012 (UTC) Ps> again i like the act, just not the brackets.
 * sounds like a threat that does. I will not combine them, I'd prefer that there be a flat tax system here. Also Marcus just a question but how much tax burden do you think the rich bear on this current tax plan I've laid out? Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:03, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see why you wouldn't combine them. They're the same type of tax with different rates. And, if we combine them, we have more freedom with our rates. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:22, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not against combining them, it just seems interesting that Marcus thinks he understands the rates they should be at all of a sudden. I'll combine the rates, with an exclusion of L$30,000 for the lower class earners, then have a reasonable earning rate of 28% from 30,000 to 500,000 (covers the rest of the lower class and middle class earners) and a higher rate of 38% for earnings above 500,000. Btw the share of tax under this plan is as so: 37% of taxes revenue is collected from the upper class, 50% on the middle class and 13% from the working class. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:46, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Btw before anyone says anything the rates I suggest keep us bringing in the right amount of money considering the reduced taxes to have about three and a half billion to spend a year, under Marcus plan it's about 600 million less. Doesn't go well when you consider your spending plans marcus. /:I Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:54, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not liking the progressive tax... I think you should just make the tax 33 and 1/3 % for anything after the first 30,000. This encourages people to get higher paying jobs which boosts competition, education, and the economy, and 33 and 1/3 is a nice round number when it comes to dividing by 3 for things. Also @Lukas, $500,000 is well into upper class, even in Lovian dollars. If you're thinking progressive taxes that's not quite the upperclass cut-off, but I support flat taxes, so I actually think that that wouldn't be so bad, but I still think the 33 and 1/3% for anyone making more than $30,000 works the best. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 23:43, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Neither am I. Also it can be hard to get just higher paying jobs, there is always someone on the bottom unfortunately, someone has to clean the toilets... also I have the statistics here in front of me, the average Lovian upperclass basic earnings start at around L$1,357,644 the number I gave was an inbetween point between upper middle class and upper class earnings. Also under your 33.3% tax over 30,000, you'd raise 300 million more than my plan, not something I'd be opposed to really... but would it get passed? Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 00:06, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * (maybe i compromised too much den :p xD) umm. I re-read it and the NI tax isn't in there. Did you delete it? Also are we going to have a corporate tax rate? Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:41, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Please I'm not adding a whole new tax (especially corporate which is going to be a bit more complex than you think), I'd like it if we could focus just on these currently proposed. And yes I took out NI. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 00:48, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I will hope for a corporate tax later, but currently i can support with 13/14 votes. :D Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:57, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm glad that somebody other than Oos has faith in this law, now we just need to get Horton, Time, Costello and Semyon and I think we can say that this is a uniting agreement. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 01:12, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

I think it looks good now! —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:45, December 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * What happened to the Health and welfare bit of our tax? Or are you hoping to pay for that through a state budget? And like Semyon mentioned before, there is a similar little loophole in 9.3, s. 1.1.1.1. "only the goods that are being intended to be sold within the national borders of Lovia are eligible for tariffs". ANyone with the means could bring in large quantities of foreign goods and give them away (and there are many ways to receive compensation for this without being illegal under the law). HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:37, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * simple change can solve this but you're picking at straws there. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:39, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to criticize here but in the real world its these little thingies that allow for crooks to get away (if you want we can just pretend no criminal will abuse the loophole so we leave it as is). HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:44, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * heh, I know and I'm not pretending to anything I've changed the law. It should be ready now. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:58, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think there were a couple other loopholes like that, such as for the gift-giving $30,000. Was that fixed? Also, I'd like to see more capital letters at the beginning of sentences. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:02, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * That was fixed. And on the capital letters, technically they are at the start of sentences, as law is read as such:

If we are reading it from Lukas Hoffmanns perspective as to whether he has to pay tax:

Every individual of 16 years of age or older must pay Income Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so, to be eligible to pay Income Tax and an individual must be earning income as defined below and must have resided within Lovia's national borders during the tax year.

And Lukas is so therefore he must be paying tax. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 17:07, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

I don't like the tariffs portion of this act. I don't know what kind of compromise you came to, but I don't know if I can support this myself. :P — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 20:23, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Tariffs part of this protect Lovias economy. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 20:30, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't want tariffs either, but all it does is legalize them. The government can set the tariff tax to 0%... I still want just 33.3% income tax and no other taxes. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 20:34, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Jebus christ. Just fucking pass it xD. I'm giving it support yet, my only hang up is a coprorate tax, but im putting that aside.Hoffmann is right, at this point we are making (very minor) improvements to the bill and picking at straws. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:04, December 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * The PL doesn't agree with you on this one, Kunarian. You can try and pass it, but you will not have our support. — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 22:55, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with myself Pikapi. Personally I want flat taxes and low ones at that but hey I feel we need taxes at least especially with Clymenes spendathon. Stubborness without a back up plan will only hurt Lovia besides I feel we on the right got a lot out of this. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:02, December 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * Kunarian, can I chat you privately on Bretherland for a minute? — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 23:10, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

048. Article 9 - Taxation Act by Quarantine Zone

 * Article 9.1 - Income Tax Act
 * Every individual of 16 years of age or older must pay Income Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Income Tax and an individual must:
 * be earning income as defined below and must have resided within Lovia's national borders during the tax year; or
 * be a Lovian citizen earning income as defined below and must be earning income from an individual or corporation which resides within Lovia's national borders:
 * in this case only the income gained from the individual or corporation that resides within Lovia's national borders is eligible for tax.
 * Income is the sum total of:
 * wage and salaries:
 * wages, salaries and tips recieved by an individual for performing a service for another individual or entity or from another individual or corporation they are employee of; and
 * minus any wages, salaries or tips that an individual has given to another individual for being an employee of the concerned individual.
 * pensions:
 * pensions or annuity payments recieved by an individual from another individual or corporation;
 * minus any pensions or annuity payments that an individual has given to another individual; and
 * pensions and annuity payments are fixed payments over a specified or unspecified period of time.
 * capital gains:
 * capital gains received by an individual from another individual or corporation; and
 * capital gains are the profits gained by buying and then selling property, shares or bonds.
 * lump sums:
 * lump sums received by an individual from another individual or corporation;
 * minus any lump sums that an individual has given to another individual; and
 * lump sums are single payments of money.
 * rental income:
 * rental income recieved by an individual from another individual or corporation;
 * minus any rent that an individual has given to another individual; and
 * rental income is when a payment is made for the temporary use of a good, service or property owned by another individual.
 * dividends:
 * dividends recieved by an individual from a corporation; and
 * dividends are payments made by a corporation to its shareholder members.
 * Income Tax required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individuals income and levying a set percentage which goes to the Ministry of Finance:
 * the first thirty thousand lovian dollars of income are exempt from this levy;
 * the next four hundred and seventy thousand lovian dollars of income is taxed. This has a percentage of total levied set by the Congress
 * all other income has a percentage of total levied set by the Congress.
 * Income Tax can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Income Tax for individuals;
 * however individuals have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Income Tax;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * Evading, distributing income to others for the main purpose of reducing the amount of tax paid or otherwise failing to pay Income Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Article 9.2 - Property Tax Act
 * Every individual or corporation who owns property or land as defined by law within Lovia must pay Property Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Property Tax an individual or corporation must:
 * own property or land within Lovia's national borders.
 * Property is:
 * the combination of land and an improvement that has been built upon said land; and
 * to avoid confusion property is measured in square metres by taking the length between the furthest points along the width of the improvement and multiplying them by the length between the furthest points along the length of the improvement.
 * Land is:
 * land that has not had an improvement built upon it; and
 * to avoid confusion land is measured in square metres.
 * Property Tax on property required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individual or corporations measured property and levying a set amount which goes to the Ministry of Finance depending on the amount of measured property owned:
 * the first two hundred and fifty square metres are exempt from this levy; and
 * all other property has a levy set by the Congress
 * Property Tax on land require to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individual or corporations measured land and levying a set amount which goes to the Ministry of Finance depending on the amount of measured property owned:
 * the first four thousand square metres are exempt from this levy; and
 * all other land has a levy set by the Congress.
 * unless the land is under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service or is being used for agricultural purposes, in which case all other land has a levy of one cent per square metre.
 * Property Tax can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Property Tax for individuals and corporations;
 * however individuals and corporations based in Lovia have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Property Tax;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual or corporation with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * Evading or otherwise failing to pay Property Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Article 9.3 - Import Tariff Act
 * Every individual or corporation who brings goods from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders must pay Import Tariffs should they be defined by law as eligible to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Import Tariffs an individual or corporation must:
 * have brought goods from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders with the intention of making direct or indirect monetary gain from those goods within Lovia's national borders:
 * only the goods that monetary gain is intended to be gained from within the national borders of Lovia are eligible for tariffs.
 * Individuals or corporations who have brought goods brought from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders must register the goods with customs officers:
 * failure to register all the goods that have been imported due to either intent or by negligence is illegal:
 * failure to register all the goods that have been imported can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Import Tariffs are required to be paid on all the following described imported goods when they are first sold within Lovia's national borders:
 * agricultural goods:
 * crops, plants, animals, woods, fish and aquacultures.
 * mining goods:
 * coals, lignites, crude petroleum, natural gas's, metal ores, stones, sands, clays, chemicals, minerals, peats and salts.
 * manufactured goods:
 * processed meats, processed fish, processed aquaculture, processed crops, oils, fats, dairy products, beverages and tobacco products.
 * textiles, apparel, leather products, wood products and paper products.
 * printed media products and recorded media products.
 * coke, petroleum products, chemical products, pharmaceutical products, rubber products and plastic products.
 * mineral products, processed metals, metal products, electronic products and optical products.
 * Worth is:
 * the amount of Lovian Dollars the good is sold for.
 * Import Tariffs required to be paid is calculated by taking the worth of the imported goods when sold and levying a set percentage which goes to the Ministry of Finance:
 * all worth has an exclusive levy of set by the Congress.
 * Import Tariffs can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Import Tariffs for individuals;
 * however individuals have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Import Tariffs;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual with the documentation to file their own tariffs.
 * Evading or otherwise failing to pay Import Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.


 * Should be set by Congress. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:54, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep same criticism, also interesting you should call this your taxation act when in reality at most you could be called a co-author. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 20:14, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't want it to get confused with Kunarian's. Here I'll change it to Congress. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 20:47, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * xD HIS taxation act. okay. what was even changed. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:54, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

048. Article 10 - Taxation Act
This will go in the public law book, due to taxes being part of the task of government.


 * Article 10.1 - Taxation Regulation
 * When congress may vote upon setting taxes
 * How congress may set taxes
 * How states may vote upon setting taxes
 * How the states may set taxes
 * How the ministry of finance collects and files taxes
 * Article 10.2 - Income Tax
 * Every individual of 16 years of age or older must pay Income Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Income Tax and an individual must:
 * be earning income as defined below and must have resided within Lovia's national borders during the tax year; or
 * be a Lovian citizen earning income as defined below and must be earning income from an individual or corporation which resides within Lovia's national borders:
 * in this case only the income gained from the individual or corporation that resides within Lovia's national borders is eligible for tax.
 * Income is the sum total of:
 * wage and salaries:
 * wages, salaries and tips recieved by an individual for performing a service for another individual or entity or from another individual or corporation they are employee of; and
 * minus any wages, salaries or tips that an individual has given to another individual for being an employee of the concerned individual.
 * pensions:
 * pensions or annuity payments recieved by an individual from another individual or corporation;
 * minus any pensions or annuity payments that an individual has given to another individual; and
 * pensions and annuity payments are fixed payments over a specified or unspecified period of time.
 * capital gains:
 * capital gains received by an individual from another individual or corporation; and
 * capital gains are the profits gained by buying and then selling property, shares or bonds.
 * lump sums:
 * lump sums received by an individual from another individual or corporation;
 * minus any lump sums that an individual has given to another individual; and
 * lump sums are single payments of money.
 * rental income:
 * rental income recieved by an individual from another individual or corporation;
 * minus any rent that an individual has given to another individual; and
 * rental income is when a payment is made for the temporary use of a good, service or property owned by another individual.
 * dividends:
 * dividends recieved by an individual from a corporation; and
 * dividends are payments made by a corporation to its shareholder members.
 * Income Tax required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individuals income and levying a set percentage which goes to the Ministry of Finance:
 * an exemption from this levy may be set;
 * a next number of lovian dollars of income may have a set percentage levied; and
 * this may be done multiple times.
 * all other income has a set percent levied.
 * Income Tax can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Income Tax for individuals;
 * however individuals have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Income Tax;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * Evading, distributing income to others for the main purpose of reducing the amount of tax paid or otherwise failing to pay Income Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Article 10.3 - Property Tax
 * Every individual or corporation who owns property or land as defined by law within Lovia must pay Property Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Property Tax an individual or corporation must:
 * own property or land within Lovia's national borders.
 * Property is:
 * the combination of land and an improvement that has been built upon said land; and
 * to avoid confusion property is measured in square metres by taking the length between the furthest points along the width of the improvement and multiplying them by the length between the furthest points along the length of the improvement.
 * Land is:
 * land that has not had an improvement built upon it; and
 * to avoid confusion land is measured in square metres.
 * Property Tax on property required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individual or corporations measured property and levying a set amount which goes to the Ministry of Finance depending on the amount of measured property owned:
 * an exemption from this levy may be set; and
 * all other property has a set levy of Lovian cents per square metre set:
 * unless the property is under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service or National Monument Service in which case all other land has a different levy of Lovians cents per square metre set.
 * Property Tax on land require to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individual or corporations measured land and levying a set amount which goes to the Ministry of Finance depending on the amount of measured property owned:
 * an exemption from this levy may be set; and
 * all other land has a set levy of Lovian cents per square metre set:
 * unless the land is under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service, National Monument Servive or is being used for agricultural purposes, in which case all other land has a different levy of Lovians cents per square metre set.
 * Property Tax can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Property Tax for individuals and corporations;
 * however individuals and corporations based in Lovia have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Property Tax;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual or corporation with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * Evading or otherwise failing to pay Property Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Article 10.4 - Import Tariff
 * Every individual or corporation who brings goods from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders must pay Import Tariffs should they be defined by law as eligible to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Import Tariffs an individual or corporation must:
 * have brought goods from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders with the intention of making direct or indirect monetary gain from those goods within Lovia's national borders:
 * only the goods that monetary gain is intended to be gained from within the national borders of Lovia are eligible for tariffs.
 * Individuals or corporations who have brought goods brought from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders must register the goods with customs officers:
 * failure to register all the goods that have been imported due to either intent or by negligence is illegal:
 * failure to register all the goods that have been imported can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Import Tariffs are required to be paid on all the following described imported goods when they are first sold within Lovia's national borders:
 * agricultural goods:
 * crops, plants, animals, woods, fish and aquacultures.
 * mining goods:
 * coals, lignites, crude petroleum, natural gas's, metal ores, stones, sands, clays, chemicals, minerals, peats and salts.
 * manufactured goods:
 * processed meats, processed fish, processed aquaculture, processed crops, oils, fats, dairy products, beverages and tobacco products.
 * textiles, apparel, leather products, wood products and paper products.
 * printed media products and recorded media products.
 * coke, petroleum products, chemical products, pharmaceutical products, rubber products and plastic products.
 * mineral products, processed metals, metal products, electronic products and optical products.
 * Worth is:
 * the amount of Lovian Dollars the good is sold for.
 * Import Tariffs required to be paid is calculated by taking the worth of the imported goods when sold and levying a set percentage which goes to the Ministry of Finance:
 * all worth has an exclusive percentage levy set.
 * Import Tariffs can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Import Tariffs for individuals;
 * however individuals have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Import Tariffs;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual with the documentation to file their own tariffs.
 * Evading or otherwise failing to pay Import Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.

Comments
So rates were removed for income tax and tariffs, but remain for property tax? Interesting. I'd like to see that changed. The wording in the income tax is a bit strange. It seems to say that Congress can only establish 3 classes of taxation for income, no more, no less. Lastly, I think that there should be a lowering of property tax to one cent for not just agriculture and NPS but also for all land being preserved. Otherwise, this is looking very good. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:08, December 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think that the rates for property should be removed. If that's changed, then I'll see this as a perfect taxation act. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 02:17, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

The plan is to have everything set by congress. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 02:31, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

^Perfect. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 02:59, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Er, what? You say that yet there is still a rate for property tax in the law. And about the other two problems? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:47, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

I've modified it, to add in an essential encompassing regulation. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 00:39, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

In relation to Times and Daembrales position on lowering tax on land being preserved. The term Daembrales added was far too ambiguous however I have had plans for reforming the NPS to make it a more general land preservation organisation, and once it is it will allow for the quick adding of 'protected sites' and 'protected areas' as well as national parks. These protected sites/areas will allow for what you are hoping for (the protection of habitats and such). And also I assume you want protection for cultural areas, simple, I'll add that areas under the jurisdiction of the NMS levy also a smaller tax. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 01:45, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

oh, sorry for changing it. :/ i do think that it'd be okay to have all protected areas have a lowered tax, though. Daembrales (talk) 02:15, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes but we can't allow people to dodge tax simply by claiming that their land is protected. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 09:03, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to get back on this soon. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 09:03, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

049. Humanitarian aid.
I request that Congress urgently sends aid to the oppressed Kòb people, who are suffering greatly from the Burenian imperialists. I. Semyon Breyev, hereby give my utmost encouragement to this great people and their leader Hròb Di Kòb. Kòb se vèlïk! --Semyon 16:47, January 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * (6) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:57, January 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 17:06, January 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is just plain silly. Full . HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:07, January 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah I know, it's ridiculous. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 17:12, January 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * What is this all about?! Wabba The I (talk) 17:53, January 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * --Quarantine Zone (talk) 22:25, January 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay den. Also horton we need votes for Labour! We need some more support.... Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:43, January 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is my current emotion, but the image does not match the others (it's straight instead of lopsided, uses a different font, is uncolored, etc.) and the template name is "Confused as to what to do" (...) instead of "Confused", so unfortunately I can't use it. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:32, January 7, 2013 (UTC)

050. Religious Education Act
Religious Education shall be legalised in every school and it is required for every school in the Kingdom of Lovia to have religious education as a lesson for every class for at least 1 hour a week.

<font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   16:34, January 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * There already is mandatory course "Religions of the world". And this is not "law language" :P I agree with the legalisation though. I think we can discuss this better after the inauguration of the new congress. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:43, January 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, I am putting this act on the status "on hold" until the new congress.  <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 16:53, January 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Good :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:55, January 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Whenever it will took place, I will be against it. Schools are free for chose which subjects they give. Wabba The I (talk) 16:57, January 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * So, you are in favor of religious education? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:59, January 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * wabba, I'm not too bothered if all schools choose to do it. It's just it should be legal. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 17:02, January 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * You think, I not. Wabba The I (talk) 13:27, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

(reset) I think that all stories from religion should be referred to as stories also (this means that the story could be true or false). Where as at my school they refer to all of them as myths...--Quarantine Zone (talk) 17:24, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

There are too many problems with Religious Education to me. I can see why it should be legal, but I fear too much of indoctrination. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:54, January 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * There is political indoctrination in most non-relgious schools. Indoctrination of all kinds is bad and it is not Religious Schools only that share this threat. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 09:33, January 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't really have a problem with indoctrination into the idea that indoctrination is bad and that more ideas should be represented è. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:36, January 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well then you have no idea about indoctrination in non-religious schools. What you are saying is that you don't support Christian schools teaching kids Christian values but you'd be fine with a school where they are taught communistic or fascistic values. Of course I'm being facetious but you should get my point. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:34, January 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not really. There are some things that are good to indoctrinate, like that you should be kind to others, generous, etc. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:37, January 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hardly. Parents should teach their children morals. You worry me in believing indoctrination is good as long as you agree with it. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:40, January 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Uh. . . "parents should teach their children morals" is still indoctrination, and since you think that is good, then indoctrination is good in some cases. According to you. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:51, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also. . . when did I say indoctrination is good as long as I agree with it? :'( —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:01, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

TM, I share your fear, and therefore we should set in place a control in the law. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:18, January 25, 2013 (UTC)

Proposal for the formation of the Ilava II Government
I propose the formation of a new government for 2013, comments are welcome and this is completely open to change. Let us get this instated for inauguration day:


 * Prime Minister
 * Oos Wes Ilava (OWTB)
 * Ministry of Agriculture
 * ... (-Sunkist-)
 * Ministry of Commerce
 * ... (Happy65)
 * Ministry of Culture
 * ... (OWTB)
 * Ministry of Defense
 * Lukas Hoffmann (Kunarian)
 * Ministry of Education
 * ... (Kunarian)
 * Ministry of Energy and Resources
 * ... (-Sunkist-)
 * Ministry of Environment
 * ... (77topaz)
 * Ministry of Finance
 * ... (TimeMaster)
 * Ministry of Foreign Affairs
 * ... (horton11)
 * Ministry of Health
 * ... (Quarantine Zone)
 * Ministry of Justice
 * ... (Happy65)
 * Ministry of Labour
 * ... (Crystalbeastdeck09)
 * Ministry of Tourism and Sport
 * ... (77topaz)
 * Ministry of Transportation
 * ... (Wabba The I)
 * Speaker of the Congress
 * ... (TimeMaster)

Let the debate begin. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 17:26, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

Discuss
I propose two changes: please also include the ministry of Family, Youth and Elderly. And take me off of either Culture or Education. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:28, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * I feel that the Ministry of the Family, Youth and Elderly needs to be more defined, what would their aims be as a ministry? I'll replace you in education, I feel that you are a great developer of both Oceana's and Lovia's culture. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 17:31, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay :) I don't feel the name is undefined. It should concentrate on facilities for the youth and the elderly (like rest homes, which we have a shortage of), and activities for youth. And it should be there to create a support for families in trouble (like divorce), and normal families. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:56, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * For the Dutchies, it should resemble . --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:57, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * I feel that homes for the elderly as well as support for families should come under the Ministry of Health, they need to provide for the people on that account and on the matters of youth, the Ministry of Education should take up that front (which now you've raised that I will ensure that I do take that on as a primary objective). I feel that while those matters are important they fall under the jurisdiction of other ministries too much. However if you feel that despite this there is still a strong reason for inserting it as a ministry then I'm open to ideas. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 18:05, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't feel youth activities should fall under the Ministery of Health.. Nor should they fall under the Ministery of Education, as they are not falling under educational goals. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:09, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * You could argue that they do fall under the Ministry of Education, activities designed for the youth to ensure that they are prepared for the world easily fall under the Ministry of Education, other activities further off from that I don't know about. But I can see your point, a Ministry to deal with youth matters may be a good idea. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 18:31, January 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * Including the Noble Family? <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 17:58, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Including the Noble Family :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:04, January 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * This is great. I support this. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 17:54, January 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * I like the set up. I support the Ministry of Family, Youth, and Elderly. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 20:53, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm mixed....most i like, some i don't. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:01, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but why do someone have 2 and other's none. It's not just becuse many good people didn't get a position. Granero (talk) 22:25, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * These are the only people who showed interest in being in a Ministry. @Marcus: I'm not fully satisfied either with certain aspects but I think this is the one that people can most agree with across the board, you must understand we're working with a highly divided Congress and we must all co-operate to move forwards together. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 22:37, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * I put an interest to be in a ministry but you did not add me. And why is sunkist with more places then  Crystalbeastdeck09 and Horton11, they have more votes. And Pikapi and Semyon too have more votes, and they didn't even get one. Granero (talk) 23:06, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * And in the page of Forum:Government, you didn't select education. Realy I see only that right politicians have two positions but center didn't get many and the left none. Granero (talk) 23:09, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * @your first point: Did you? well then which Ministries would you like to be in then? And the reason Sunkist is in more places is because he chose two ministries where basically no one else signed up. Same thing with Marcus and Horton but the reverse, they chose places with a lot of conflict but I tried to chose the area that they would take the greatest interest in and benefit Lovia most from, such as Marcus being the Minister of Labour (interactions with Trade Unions will be his forte and there are other points I can muster too). I have full confidence that they will fulfil their roles well. And by the way the reason Pikapi and Semyon didn't get places is because for the former, he isn't around and showed no interest in any ministry we need people who are active for ministers not just putting them there to be tokens, and for the latter, he only showed interest in Speaker of the Congress but isn't around that much at the moment and the speaker is vital for getting laws through so I was forced to choose the more active Timemaster. Also on your final point, votes will not dictate the places you get in government that would be ignorant and cause all kinds of problems, what gets people places is being active, showing an interest and really putting the effort into what you do, so that is why votes will not dictate places awarded in government. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:17, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * @your second point: No I didn't but if you've read the conversation you would understand why my name is there, and if you've read what Time has written you will realise why I will most likely be changing it to him. And you're being completely silly there. Tell me is Sunkist a rightist? is Oos, the well known centrist, a rightist? Is Topaz, the leader of the greens, a rightist? and is Timemaster a rightist? what you say about right, center and left is complete nonsense. This government has only 5 (soon to be 4) offices held by those who identify as rightists. You seem to simply be trying to stir up trouble due to a simple mishap over you having a place in government. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:22, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * I selected education and defense and health. But really I prefer to be in health or education, I have more knowledges in the two. Granero (talk) 23:35, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * I selected only defence so unfortunately I would say that I'm keeping that one. However on education, Time may give it to you but I don't know about Healthcare, you weren't active last year very much while holding that position, maybe it doesn't capture your imagination like you think. Unless you feel that this will change? Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:40, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * I really have lot's in ideas in health and education now, it's areas that I want to make much better . Granero (talk) 23:49, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know your positions on health and education, could you define them? Also on a last note, are you sure there are no other Ministries you feel you take an interest in? Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:52, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * You've put me in an awkward position. QZ is more active than you and Time has a full plan set out for education. I need to sleep now but I must say that this is rather uncomfortable. I hope that you can work something out with Time and QZ while I'm gone, if not I'll get back to work. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:56, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

I'd really like to be Minister of Education this term. I made a plan at User:TimeMaster/Education. I also support the Ministry of Family, Youth, and Elderly, but it's a bit wordy. Maybe we could find a two-word name? In addition, changing Agriculture to Food and Agriculture (and Fisheries?) would be nice, and Education to Education and Research. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:46, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * I will most certainly give you the position, however I don't know if it is fair for you to have three positions. If Granero would accept it, would you give him the position as the Minister of Finance? or if not we can simply swap my education position for your financial position and then work out a different place for Granero. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:25, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * My only problem is the appointment of QZ to health, beacuse of his views on Universal health care and things within that department. Why doesn't this happen Kunarian swap education with TM for finance, and then Granero take Defense. Kunarian: Finance, TM: Education, Granero: Defense. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:55, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * I will not give up the position of Defence it is the only one that I signed up to and I'm part way through a reform. Also remember that QZ supports universal healthcare, he is just more conservative in it's application than most, however it's application is decided by Congress, the Ministry carries out the application. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:59, January 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Lemme see if I can formulate a plan... Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:02, January 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Pleas, I would like to do then health, because I have a good plan for that. Granero (talk) 00:04, January 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * My version, Or prefered version would have Kunarian and TM's positions of Education and Finance switched, and then Granero put into health. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:07, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

I'd be okay with not having Finance, but I did make Department of Finance/Budget. I'd rather have both. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:46, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

i would like to have ministry of health, or maybe ministry of labour. just one is good for me. Daembrales (talk) 01:42, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

We've actually had these debates and conversations already. (a bit late for that) and they're usually reserved for senior members and the party leaders and such. Marcus/Michael Villanova 02:02, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

I signed up for defense and health, but Kunarian only wanted defense and he's more active and he's been around longer, so he definitely gets that one. As far as health care goes, I want a Bismarck model with an extra cheap government run option for non-necessities that would cost a small extra tax. It would be like a government run, cheap, private style option. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 02:14, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Isn't the PM position allocated through a referendum? 77topaz (talk) 03:49, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Yes. I'll have to set one up. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   07:39, January 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, it's not. It's treated like any other minister. Though it wouldn't be bad to hold a poll to see the preference. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:01, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Let me allow to say one thing. I'd prefer that the Minsitry of Education goes to someone who is pro special and religious education, for obvious reasons. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:16, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

I'm neutral, is that good enough? :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:00, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Oos on this, but neutral is better than against them... --Quarantine Zone (talk) 21:40, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Referendum for PM
Referendum is needed. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   07:39, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

TimeMaster (18)

 * 4 votes. 77topaz (talk) 08:11, January 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:01, January 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 14:48, January 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes. Granero (talk) 04:40, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Ooswesthoesbes (41)

 * 9 votes. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 07:39, January 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:16, January 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 10:39, January 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6 votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:59, January 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes -Sunkist- (talk) 05:25, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Joshua Katz (Semyon) (8)

 * 5 votes. --Semyon 20:01, February 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 21:47, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
I hope for the CNP-CCLP-LP coalition to occur and the members to take it seriously and have a government PM and leadership. I throw my support behind Oos only in hopes of this. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:59, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

CNP-CCPL-LP coalition? What do those parties have in common? --Quarantine Zone (talk) 03:23, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Not that much, I would say. :P 77topaz (talk) 06:24, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Alot actually. CCPL-CNP have great friendships and CCPL work with Labour also very well. It is a nice idea. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   08:16, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

CNP's economic views are highly divergent from Labour's, and CCPL's social/ethical views are highly divergent from Labour's. :P 77topaz (talk) 08:46, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

We have very similar views on devolution though and aim to focus on installing essential laws that have been ignored over the past years. We're united in wanting to truly flesh out Lovias law system and bringing politics closer to the people. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 09:12, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

CNP and CCPl are close, but LP is different. I'd be up for the Confederate coalition though. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 15:13, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah but too be honest, we don't even have essential laws like taxation, regulation or a budget. And too be honest a CCPL-CNP-LP coalition while varying on issues, have some common policies and a lot of common goals. Like when I year "I'm fiscally conservative", well in this country you can't even be fiscally one way or the other because we don't even have laws! I hope we do get that coalition. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:19, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

As it is right now though, Kunarian's plan will probably go through. I still don't think the LP would work well with CCPL and CNP. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 21:50, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that delightful insight! Fine Gael and Labour have been in power, in ireland, with each other for a long time, in spite of the difference of Non-republican, center-right and semi-nationalist leftism. It's about forming a bloc with enough people towards a goal. And were not proposing the Communists and the Nazis and the Centrist Liberals to united were talking about center-left,center and center-right. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:13, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

=Second Chamber=

041. Recognition of Overbanken as a neighborhood
Alright: National Settlement Order will be updated:
 * 1) Overbanken will be recognised as a neighborhood of Hurb.
 * 2) Hurbanova will be an official city.

Pro

 * 16 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:46, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * 4 votes — Beer.png <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 12:26, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * 7 votes - Congradulations to the honorable governor for helping bring around this historic moment! Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:50, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * 14 votes - fuck it I love Oceana ^_^ Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:54, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's what I wanted to say if I were atheist :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:07, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why? I'm catholic and I swear all of the fucking time. :D — Beer.png <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 17:20, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * You'd better read the bible, son :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:45, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't swear (or at least when I do I repent for it), I find that swearing can normally be topped by a good well worded and thought out sentence. ;) Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 17:56, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm with Kunarian. I find swearing pointless. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 19:48, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 11 votes. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:30, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1 vote. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 18:09, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * 11 votes. I feel like some of the unnamed green areas adjacent to the stream and the three houses should become houses, though. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:03, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, thought of that too. You should see the green areas as spaces for the future. If Hurb is packed again, we can use those areas as back-up before creating a new neighborhood :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:15, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * 6 votes. Late, I know. --Semyon 21:33, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1 vote. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 19:53, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1 vote. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 19:53, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Comments
I'm pro Oceana against this. I'm not sure were it fits in, because it has no formal way to buy a home. until then i'm against Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:34, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

I want Overbanken to become a neighborhood because Hurbanova seriously needs to become a city. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   18:49, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

✅ By a 65% majority! —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:07, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

(or Gratulatsii! :P) --Semyon 21:31, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

That Lew bude vurar! :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:16, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

Great! <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   15:54, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Isn't it accpeted with a 100% majority, no one voted against? Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:01, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

. ✅ Let's just say it's accepted and not argue.. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   16:04, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Hahah lol xD i think TM's point was that 65 people in the congress voted pro but since we're only counting the congressmembers who voted it should be 100% :p Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:08, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

That's absolutely wrong. No lol about it. It's not the percentage of voters (it's the percentage of total congresspeople), otherwise someone could just propose a random bill, vote pro on it, and say "100% of voters voted pro so it passed!" —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:23, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

But it would have to be there for two weeks, so obviously someone else would vote on it. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:28, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

But voting can be close early if the necessary majority is reached before then. I don't even know why the two weeks thing is mentioned in the Constitution. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:42, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Hey i'm just here to question, nothing else :p Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:53, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Why isn't Hurbanova a city now? <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   08:17, November 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * It is officially. I think the page has not been updated yet :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:46, November 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Stop trying to create a culture of dependency you socialist, do it yourself :P xD Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:04, November 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, there used to be a time that the guy who closed the vote also enacted its contents. Unfortunately, those times seem over :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:09, November 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Besides updating the NSO, what has to be done? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 11:54, November 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Updating the page Hurbanova itself? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:37, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

Should the other new neighbourhoods (Milerose, St Stephens, East River) have similar votes? 77topaz (talk) 22:52, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

Yes to St Stephens and East River, No to Milerose. I want a neighborhood adjacent to Sofasi, not another resort town like Adoha or Ferguson Beach Village that's not adjacent. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:02, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

043. Settlement Act Revision
This will be in the Public Law Book.
 * Article 1 - Settlement Act
 * Lovian settlements are classified into one of these five groups: hamlets, villages, neighborhoods, towns, and cities.
 * The population of a settlement is considered to be the number of people who have a primary residence within the built up areas.
 * Congress must recognize a settlements by a simple majority before the settlement can become an official hamlet, village, neighborhood, town, or city of Lovia.
 * A hamlet is a very small settlement that does not border the urban areas of a more populous settlement.
 * A hamlet must:
 * Have a population of at least ten and at most five hundred.
 * If a hamlet's population drops below ten, it is no longer classified as a settlement.
 * If a hamlet's population rises above five hundred, it is classified as a village.
 * A hamlet may officially affiliate itself with a larger town or city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A hamlet may have a new, bordering, distinct urban area become a neighborhood of the hamlet if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * If a hamlet borders a less populous settlement, the smaller settlement may become a neighborhood of the hamlet if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A village is a small settlement that does not border the urban areas of a more populous settlement.
 * A village must:
 * Have a population of at least five hundred and at most five thousand.
 * If a village's population drops below five hundred, it is classified as a hamlet.
 * If a village's population rises above five thousand, it is classified as a town.
 * A village may officially affiliate itself with a larger town or city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A village may have a new, bordering, distinct urban area become a neighborhood of the village if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * If a village borders a less populous settlement, the smaller settlement may become a neighborhood of the village if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A town is a mid-sized settlement that does not border the urban areas of a more populous settlement.
 * A town must:
 * Have a population of at least five thousand and at most twenty thousand.
 * If a town's population drops below five thousand, it is classified as a village.
 * If a town's population rises above twenty thousand, it is classified as a city.
 * A town may have a village or hamlet affiliate with the town if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A town may have a new, bordering, distinct urban area become a neighborhood of the town if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * If a town borders a less populous settlement, the smaller settlement may become a neighborhood of the town if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A city is a large settlement that does not border the urban areas of a more populous settlement.
 * A city must:
 * Have a population of at least twenty thousand.
 * If a town's population drops below twenty thousand, it is classified as a town.
 * A city may have a village or hamlet affiliate with the city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A city may have a new, bordering, distinct urban area become a neighborhood of the city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * If a city borders a less populous settlement, the smaller settlement may become a neighborhood of the city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * A neighborhood is a subdivision of a settlement.
 * A neighborhood must be a distinct urban area of another larger settlement.
 * In the case that a larger urban area grows and borders a smaller urban area, the smaller settlement may become one or multiple neighborhoods of the larger settlement if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority.
 * All settlements in Lovia are managed and built by the state that they are part of.
 * Each settlement recognized by Congress must be added to the National Settlement Order.
 * Per the Constitution, Congress may override a decision of the state government to build new settlements by a simple majority.

This makes some changes to modernize the law for our updated census system and makes some other small revisions. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:14, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Pro

 * 11 Votes. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:14, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * 16 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:13, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1 vote. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 15:53, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * 7 votes Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 18:34, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * 14 votes, TM may be stubborn but knows how to write a nice bill :D Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:23, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * 5 votes Wabba The I (talk) 17:59, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Contra

 * 16 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:04, November 16, 2012 (UTC) 3.4/3.5/4.4/4.5 contradicts to 7.
 * Whoops, didn't catch that earlier. It's fixed. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:11, November 16, 2012 (UTC)



Abstention


✅ By a 54% majority. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:14, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Comments
Since I can't vote, I'll just comment: there's something wrong with the population limits. "Hamlets can't have more than 500 people"? Even Amish Kinley has more people than that. East Hills, IIRC, has more than three thousand. 77topaz (talk) 19:23, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Amish Kinley isn't a hamlet, it is a Local Religious Community. Btw, I will ask Time (unless you want to) to fix the hamlet part. It is because Lovia used to have a population of 20,000 and hamlets had hardly any people in them and this is copied and edited from the original law. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:38, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, you two, I think the idea is supposed to be that all the minor settlements are now Hamlets (look on this page: User:Kunarian/List of settlements in Sylvania settlements like Easthope and Kirkgate are now the hamlets while East Hills is now a village). So topaz, there's nothing wrong with population limits and Happy I say the same to you, there is no need for correction, this is how it is supposed to be. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 19:51, November 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, anyway, I think some of those settlements should have a page so we actually have some pages for Hamlets. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:54, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd like someone else's word on this. I'm pretty sure East Hills and Beaverwick and Clave Rock are still hamlets, since they're affiliated with Hurbanova, Newhaven and Train Village respectively. If former hamlets have been changed to villages, then what happened to villages? If villages were changed to towns, than what happened to towns and cities? 77topaz (talk) 21:43, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

It's purposeful. Hamlets are intended to be the very small settlements that do not have a page, such as the list of them that Kunarian made at User:Kunarian/List of settlements in Sylvania. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:17, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Is the rule that anything with over five neighborhoods becomes a city still in place? Or is it all population-based now? Because Oos asked Congress to allow him to give Hurbanova a fifth neighborhood, which would make it a city. 77topaz (talk) 00:37, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

It's all population based, and Congress may not override. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:54, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

So East Hills is a town now? 77topaz (talk) 01:46, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, unless Oos decides to reduce it. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:51, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Actually... I'm not sure it my bill will include only built-up areas or also surrounding rural areas. It won't be a major issue, but I need some input before the last two pro votes come in. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:53, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Only built-up areas. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:31, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:41, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the addition of every neighborhood has to go through congress. We should at least allow that power to remain with the position. Then again, we would need to set limits and guidelines (to prevent unreasonable additions). HORTON11 : •  19:09, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

They can be built, they just won't become part of the National Settlement Order until Congress recognizes them. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:25, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * This seems more reassuring now. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 19:32, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, so could you vote pro? :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:05, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Some objections
OK, for some reason I didn't see this in the 1st Chamber. Sorry about that. :P I still have some problems:
 * I don't think a hamlets should be able to have neighborhoods.
 * I'd rather not have the bits about affiliation.
 * The existence of districts (which are officially contralegislative atm) should be made official. It complicates the issue slightly, but is necessary imo. I suggest a division between rural areas, which would be divided into districts, and urban areas, containing cities, towns and villages. No settlement could be part of a district, with the exception of hamlets: they would have to form a distinct area.
 * Ideally this law would include my proposal to change the city rights law, which has been archived. The idea was that city rights would now be granted by congress or be possessed historically rather than achieved when a certain population or number of neighborhoods are reached. I like this idea, because, it's more flexible, and it allows towns to be made cities for reasons of culture or history, instead of just size, which I think is important.

I hope these seem reasonable. :) --Semyon 16:25, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

1. We shouldn't need to change the population (except for natural increments/decreases)
 * 1) Not that they will. This just keeps the possibility open. We can always change their population to avoid this problem, also.
 * 2) It's optional. Besides, I tried getting rid of affiliation a year ago and it got shot down by like a 70% margin.
 * 3) I agree that they should, but I don't think that's at all harmful to the bill proposed as it is. They're only for demographic purposes (a few states might make them more important), so I don't see what makes then contralegislative. The idea that you have there seems a bit unnecessary, but as it's the status quo I have no problem with it. I just don't think it's a reason to not vote pro.
 * 4) Well, there is always a loophole in that the Congress can simply not approve the changing of a settlement from city to town. I also don't see the town/city division as much more than a formality. If it's important to you, though, I can make arrangements.
 * 5) Don't forget, we can talk about this later after we accept this version. I don't think that the issues you've brought up would be detrimental at all; instead, just some (relatively) small changes are what you are proposing. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:51, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

2. We should not keep affiliation uless it is for suburban neighborhoods in the vicinity of the city or town. Most of the hamlets are located some distance from their "parent city".

4. There should be a clear distinction between a town and city, they are not the same. And there should be no demoting of cities unless there is a massive population drop or a valid IC reason. HORTON11 : •  18:01, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

1. We shouldn't need to, I agree. But if Semyon thinks hamlets should be unable to have a neighborhood, it could be useful. Of course, it'll be retroactive.

2. Yes, neighborhoods will have affiliation. As for hamlets and villages, the law says: "A hamlet (or village) may officially affiliate itself with a larger town or city if Congress recognizes this affiliation by a simple majority." We're just keeping the option open. It won't be required like it once was.

4. You pretty much have what the proposed law says. A population drop will be the only reason for demotion. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:14, November 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * 1) Then why not simply prevent hamlets from having neighborhoods? We shouldn't have to do retroactive edits. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 18:21, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

To keep the possibility open. I'm not opposed to it, Semyon is. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:25, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Well there is no need for that possibility. If the hamlet's affiliated town neeeds to expand, we should add another neighborhood to the town. HORTON11 : •  18:30, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Why not? What if we want to have that new neighborhood border the hamlet? I see nothing wrong. Remember, we are just keeping the possibility open. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:42, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

044. Harvian Islands becoming a full member of the IWO
The Harvian Islands will officialy become a member of the International Wikination Organisation. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   16:34, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Pro

 * 1 Vote. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 16:34, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * 16 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:39, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * 11 votes. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:09, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * 7 votes - Starting a new tomorrow of peaceful relations, today :) - Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 18:34, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * 14 votes how could you be against peace? -glad to see bi-partisan agreement- :D Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:20, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * considering Lovia's three way split (Conservative, Liberal, Socialist) isn't it a tri-partisan agreement? :D Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:30, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * America can't handel the sight of agreement, Stahp :I lol Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:41, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nonpartisan. This isn't something we had to compromise on. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:18, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * 11 votes. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:18, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * 4 votes — Beer.png <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 22:37, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Abstention


✅ By a 60% majority. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:19, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Comments

 * I promise to bring the IWO countries great relations with the Harvian Islands. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:08, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * The United Harvian Islands are now a full member of the International Wikination Organisation! <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 07:57, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not yet. Only Lovia and Harvian have agreed so far. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:16, November 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Brunant have agreed. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:58, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

045. Insel Islands becoming a full member of the IWO
The Insel Islands will officialy become a member of the International Wikination Organisation. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:47, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

Pro

 * 16 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:47, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1 vote. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 10:07, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * 5 votes. Wabba The I (talk) 15:01, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * 11 votes. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:13, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * 14 votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:16, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * 11 votes. I thought they already were. . . —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:20, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

Abstention


✅ By a 58% majority. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:20, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

Comments
Layout stealer, Oos  :| <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP   14:02, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? This has always been the correct style (except that the options were once capitalized). There's no stealing. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:21, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, the IWO part. Understandable. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:21, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

@they were: only an associate member. this one's for full membership. @lay-out: I'm sorry, I just liked your lay-out :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:43, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

046. Taxation Act 2012
This will go in the Public Law Book.


 * Article 9.1 - Income and National Insurance Tax Act
 * Every individual of 16 years of age or older must pay Income Tax and National Insurance Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Income Tax and National Insurance Tax an individual must:
 * be earning income as defined below and must have resided within Lovia's national borders during the tax year; or
 * be a Lovian citizen earning income as defined below and must be earning income from an individual or corporation which resides within Lovia's national borders:
 * in this case only the income gained from the individual or corporation that resides within Lovia's national borders is eligible for tax.
 * Income is the sum total of:
 * wage and salaries:
 * wages, salaries and tips recieved by an individual for performing a service for another individual or entity or from another individual or corporation they are employee of; and
 * minus any wages or salaries that an individual has given to another individual for being an employee of the concerned individual.
 * pensions:
 * pensions or annuity payments recieved by an individual from another individual or corporation;
 * minus any pensions or annuity payments that an individual has given to another individual; and
 * to avoid confusion pensions and annuity payments are fixed payments over a specified or unspecified period of time.
 * capital gains:
 * capital gains received by an individual from another individual or corporation; and
 * to avoid confusion capital gains are the profits gained by buying and then selling property, shares or bonds.
 * lump sums:
 * lump sums received by an individual from another individual or corporation; and
 * to avoid confusion lump sums are single payments of money:
 * an individual who has given another individual a lump sum may be allowed to minus the amount they have given away from their income to be taxed if the reason can be deemed legitimate by the Ministry of Finance.
 * rental income:
 * rental income recieved by an individual from another individual or corporation;
 * minus any rent that an individual has given to another individual; and
 * to avoid confusion rental income is when a payment is made for the temporary use of a good, service or property owned by another individual.
 * dividends:
 * dividends recieved by an individual from a corporation; and
 * to avoid confusion dividends are payments made by a corporation to its shareholder members.
 * Income Tax required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individuals income and levying a set percentage which goes to the Ministry of Finance:
 * the first thirty thousand Lovian dollars of income are exempt from this levy; and
 * all other income has twenty five percent of the total levied.
 * National Insurance Tax required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individuals income and levying a set percentage which goes to the Social Security Fund and is managed by the Ministry of Health:
 * the first thirty thousand lovian dollars of income are exempt from this levy;
 * the next twenty thousand lovian dollars of income has two point five percent levied;
 * the next fifty thousand lovian dollars of income has five percent levied; and
 * all other income has ten percent of the total levied.
 * Income Tax and National Insurance Tax can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Income and National Insurance Tax for individuals;
 * however individuals have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Income Tax or National Insurance Tax;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * Evading or otherwise failing to pay Income Tax and National Insurance Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Article 9.2 - Property Tax Act
 * Every individual or corporation who owns property or land as defined by law within Lovia must pay Property Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Property Tax an individual or corporation must:
 * own property or land within Lovia's national borders.
 * Property is:
 * the combination of land and an improvement that has been built upon said land; and
 * to avoid confusion property is measured in square metres by taking the length between the furthest points along the width of the improvement and multiplying them by the length between the furthest points along the length of the improvement.
 * Land is:
 * land that has not had an improvement built upon it; and
 * to avoid confusion land is measured in square metres.
 * Property Tax on property required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individual or corporations measured property and levying a set amount which goes to the Ministry of Finance depending on the amount of measured property owned:
 * the first two hundred and fifty square metres are exempt from this levy; and
 * all other property has a levy of seventy five Lovian cents per square metre
 * Property Tax on land require to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individual or corporations measured land and levying a set amount which goes to the Ministry of Finance depending on the amount of measured property owned:
 * the first four thousand square metres are exempt from this levy; and
 * all other land has a levy of ten cents per square metre:
 * unless the land is under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service or is being used for agricultural purposes, in which case all other land has a levy of one cent per square metre.
 * Property Tax can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Property Tax for individuals and corporations;
 * however individuals and corporations based in Lovia have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Property Tax;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual or corporation with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * Evading or otherwise failing to pay Property Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Article 9.3 - Import Tariff Act
 * Every individual or corporation who brings goods from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders must pay Import Tariffs should they be defined by law as eligible to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Import Tariffs an individual or corporation must:
 * have brought goods from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders with the intention of selling those goods within Lovia's national borders:
 * only the goods that are being intended to be sold within the national borders of Lovia are eligible for tariffs.
 * Individuals or corporations who have brought goods brought from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders must register the goods with customs officers:
 * failure to register all the goods that have been imported due to either intent or by negligence is illegal:
 * failure to register all the goods that have been imported can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Import Tariffs are required to be paid on all the following described imported goods when they are first sold within Lovia's national borders:
 * agricultural goods:
 * crops, plants, animals, woods, fish and aquacultures.
 * mining goods:
 * coals, lignites, crude petroleum, natural gas's, metal ores, stones, sands, clays, chemicals, minerals, peats and salts.
 * manufactured goods:
 * processed meats, processed fish, processed aquaculture, processed crops, oils, fats, dairy products, beverages, tobacco products, textiles, apparel, leather products, wood products, paper products, printed media products, recorded media products, coke, petroleum products, chemical products, pharmaceutical products, rubber products, plastic products, mineral products, processed metals, metal products, electronic products and optical products.
 * Worth is:
 * the amount of Lovian Dollars the good is sold for.
 * Import Tariffs required to be paid is calculated by taking the worth of the imported goods when sold and levying a set percentage which goes to the Ministry of Finance:
 * all worth has an exclusive levy of ten percent.
 * Import Tariffs can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Import Tariffs for individuals;
 * however individuals have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Import Tariffs;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual with the documentation to file their own tariffs.
 * Evading or otherwise failing to pay Import Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.

Pro

 * 7 votes - Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 12:49, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 16 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:51, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1 vote. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 17:01, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1 vote. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 19:51, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Abstention

 * while it seems good on a first reading, it's a big act and eleven hours in the First Chamber is simply not enough for proper scrutiny. I haven't even had the chance to comment yet. --Semyon 13:19, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * okay then, take your time to scrutinise it here in the comment sections, sorry if I did rush it a bit but I'll address any concerns you raise fully. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 13:21, December 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * back to first chamber for discussion. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:34, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * back to first chamber or it's a contra for me. This still needs lots of review, and from many more users. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:54, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * This is being and has been reviewed and the only real concerns that attention could be given to, those of Semyon have been dealt with to my understanding, I would hope that if he was to give his support that would show that this is ready to be put through. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 18:06, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * You know how many congresspeople are left to look at the bill? I suggest you take it back and leave it for a few more days to ensure good reviewing and any modification proposals. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 18:09, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes I do, and we practically have taken it back, when I think it is ready properly, I will reset this areas votes and we shall begin anew. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 18:29, December 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, everybody should move their votes to abstain if we are resetting. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 18:30, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

—TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:47, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Haha! I've never seen that template in the chambers. <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  19:48, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Comments
Let's get this essential bit of legislation passed shall we? Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 12:49, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

No!! It needs more discussion and needs to be formatted more similarly to other laws. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:32, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * calm down Time, you're no help when you're beating a dead horse, as has been discussed, this is going to be reset after proper discussion in the FC has taken place. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 19:40, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well he does make a good (second) point, but we have already discussed the discussion bit now. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 19:43, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, just making sure. I've set the vote as closed. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:47, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

047. Honours Act

 * 1) This Act makes provision for the creation of two bodies, recognized by the Lovian Government and sponsored by the monarch.
 * 2) The Order of the White Pine.
 * 3) The Royal Academy for the Sciences and Humanities.
 * 4) The Order of the White Pine (OWP) consists of Lovians who have rendered service to the nation, either by bravery, work or other means, and is headed by the Grand Master of the Order, who is appointed by the monarch.
 * 5) The OWP may be awarded to no more than 20 individuals every year.
 * 6) Any inhabitant of Lovia may nominate an individual for the award.
 * 7) The decision as to which individuals will receive the award will be made by Congress, and confirmed by the monarch.
 * 8) The insignia will be awarded by the monarch and Prime Minister on the 21st of June every year, at the Royal Palace.
 * 9) The insignia of the Order consists of a circular badge struck with the image of a pine tree upon the obverse and the date on the reverse, suspended on a white ribbon.
 * 10) Any member of the Order has the right to use the initials OWP after their name.
 * 11) The Royal Academy for the Sciences and Humanities consists of academics who have made a significant contribution to their field, and is headed by the Rector of Blackburn University.
 * 12) The purpose of the Academy is to fund scientific research and advances, and to create a forum for academic discussion in Lovia.
 * 13) Prospective members must possess a postgraduate academic degree awarded by the Blackburn University.
 * 14) New members are created in the following way:
 * 15) Candidates may be proposed by any member of Congress under the guidance of the Rector of Blackburn Univerity.
 * 16) The members of the the Academy will then vote, on the 1st of June each year, to decide which of the shortlisted candidates to admit.
 * 17) The new members will then be inducted by the Rector.
 * 18) Members of the Academy have the right to use the initials MRA (Member of the Royal Academy) after their name.

This proposal has been in the First Chamber for almost eight months, so I'm going to submit it for voting. --Semyon 16:36, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Pro

 * 7 votes. this has been sitting around so long I thought we'd already passed it actually :L - Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:49, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 11 votes. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:57, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 16 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:58, December 23, 2012 (UTC) though I still disagree with its ideology :P
 * 1 vote <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 18:12, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 11 votes. Looks good! I finally understand the point now. :3 —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:49, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, that's good è. :P --Semyon 23:45, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1 vote. I think that only Lovian citizens should be able to vote, but I guess it works. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 19:56, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * --Semyon 23:45, December 23, 2012 (UTC) (6 votes, guess I can vote too)

Abstention


✅ with a 53% majority. --Semyon 23:45, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

048. Taxation Act 2012
This will go in the public law book.


 * Article 10.1 - Income Tax Act
 * Every individual of 16 years of age or older must pay Income Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Income Tax and an individual must:
 * be earning income as defined below and must have resided within Lovia's national borders during the tax year; or
 * be a Lovian citizen earning income as defined below and must be earning income from an individual or corporation which resides within Lovia's national borders:
 * in this case only the income gained from the individual or corporation that resides within Lovia's national borders is eligible for tax.
 * Income is the sum total of:
 * wage and salaries:
 * wages, salaries and tips recieved by an individual for performing a service for another individual or entity or from another individual or corporation they are employee of; and
 * minus any wages, salaries or tips that an individual has given to another individual for being an employee of the concerned individual.
 * pensions:
 * pensions or annuity payments recieved by an individual from another individual or corporation;
 * minus any pensions or annuity payments that an individual has given to another individual; and
 * pensions and annuity payments are fixed payments over a specified or unspecified period of time.
 * capital gains:
 * capital gains received by an individual from another individual or corporation; and
 * capital gains are the profits gained by buying and then selling property, shares or bonds.
 * lump sums:
 * lump sums received by an individual from another individual or corporation;
 * minus any lump sums that an individual has given to another individual; and
 * lump sums are single payments of money.
 * rental income:
 * rental income recieved by an individual from another individual or corporation;
 * minus any rent that an individual has given to another individual; and
 * rental income is when a payment is made for the temporary use of a good, service or property owned by another individual.
 * dividends:
 * dividends recieved by an individual from a corporation; and
 * dividends are payments made by a corporation to its shareholder members.
 * Income Tax required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individuals income and levying a set percentage which goes to the Ministry of Finance:
 * the nothing thousand lovian dollars of income are exempt from this levy; and
 * all other income has nothing percent of the total levied.
 * Income Tax can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Income Tax for individuals;
 * however individuals have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Income Tax;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * Evading, distributing income to others for the main purpose of reducing the amount of tax paid or otherwise failing to pay Income Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Article 10.2 - Property Tax Act
 * Every individual or corporation who owns property or land as defined by law within Lovia must pay Property Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Property Tax an individual or corporation must:
 * own property or land within Lovia's national borders.
 * Property is:
 * the combination of land and an improvement that has been built upon said land; and
 * to avoid confusion property is measured in square metres by taking the length between the furthest points along the width of the improvement and multiplying them by the length between the furthest points along the length of the improvement.
 * Land is:
 * land that has not had an improvement built upon it; and
 * to avoid confusion land is measured in square metres.
 * Property Tax on property required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individual or corporations measured property and levying a set amount which goes to the Ministry of Finance depending on the amount of measured property owned:
 * the first two hundred and fifty square metres are exempt from this levy; and
 * all other property has a levy of nothing Lovian cents per square metre
 * Property Tax on land require to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individual or corporations measured land and levying a set amount which goes to the Ministry of Finance depending on the amount of measured property owned:
 * the first four thousand square metres are exempt from this levy; and
 * all other land has a levy of nothing cents per square metre:
 * unless the land is under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service or is being used for agricultural purposes, in which case all other land has a levy of one cent per square metre.
 * Property Tax can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Property Tax for individuals and corporations;
 * however individuals and corporations based in Lovia have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Property Tax;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual or corporation with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * Evading or otherwise failing to pay Property Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Article 10.3 - Import Tariff Act
 * Every individual or corporation who brings goods from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders must pay Import Tariffs should they be defined by law as eligible to do so:
 * to be eligible to pay Import Tariffs an individual or corporation must:
 * have brought goods from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders with the intention of making direct or indirect monetary gain from those goods within Lovia's national borders:
 * only the goods that monetary gain is intended to be gained from within the national borders of Lovia are eligible for tariffs.
 * Individuals or corporations who have brought goods brought from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders must register the goods with customs officers:
 * failure to register all the goods that have been imported due to either intent or by negligence is illegal:
 * failure to register all the goods that have been imported can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.
 * Import Tariffs are required to be paid on all the following described imported goods when they are first sold within Lovia's national borders:
 * agricultural goods:
 * crops, plants, animals, woods, fish and aquacultures.
 * mining goods:
 * coals, lignites, crude petroleum, natural gas's, metal ores, stones, sands, clays, chemicals, minerals, peats and salts.
 * manufactured goods:
 * processed meats, processed fish, processed aquaculture, processed crops, oils, fats, dairy products, beverages and tobacco products.
 * textiles, apparel, leather products, wood products and paper products.
 * printed media products and recorded media products.
 * coke, petroleum products, chemical products, pharmaceutical products, rubber products and plastic products.
 * mineral products, processed metals, metal products, electronic products and optical products.
 * Worth is:
 * the amount of Lovian Dollars the good is sold for.
 * Import Tariffs required to be paid is calculated by taking the worth of the imported goods when sold and levying a set percentage which goes to the Ministry of Finance:
 * all worth has an exclusive levy of nothing percent.
 * Import Tariffs can be payed in two ways and must be paid every year on the 1st of March:
 * unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Import Tariffs for individuals;
 * however individuals have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Import Tariffs;
 * the Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual with the documentation to file their own tariffs.
 * Evading or otherwise failing to pay Import Tax is illegal:
 * evasion of said taxes can be punished by imprisonment for any length of time, by a fine set at a reasonably equivalent amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit.

Contra

 * Hard to decide, but I'm going contra. I think that the income tax should be changed and the sales tax, property tax, and tariffs should be legal, but I don't like any of them, unless there's only a sales tax with nothing else. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 20:31, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * 7 Votes - Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:41, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

Abstain

 * You know. . . I'd like to leave the rates out for now. I like that idea. I'd say change it to a rate the government sets each year in accordance with its budget. Also: needs more capital letters. It's not something I'd not vote pro for, but I'd still like to see. Lastly, I think these should be three separate acts in an economic law book. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:11, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 00:13, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

Comments
Merry Christmas to the people of Lovia. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 19:31, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

I still don't like the income tax... It needs to be changed. 28 and 38% are too high... 33% flat with no other taxes, or only sales tax. Either way only flat taxes and lower than average. I'm thinking contra... --Quarantine Zone (talk) 20:59, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

The income tax has an exclusion and while you think 28% and 38% may be high, given the exclusion they are quite low except for those who earn extraneously large amounts of money. Working class only pay on average 6% of their income, middle class pay 17% of their income and the upper class pay 33.7% of their income and the overall average is 14.7%. It's very low when you compare it to other countries. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 20:39, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

I don't like the progressive taxes though. It discourages getting higher paying jobs. What do you mean they only pay 6%, 17%, and 33.7%? They pay 0%, 28%, and 38%. Also, in different places the value of money changes, e.g. in Michigan, the "upper class" tax bracket can survive with the progressive taxes still having large houses and what not, but in New York, the people making the same amount of money are struggling to live in apartments. The taxes should be left up to states, where the value of money is more consistent. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 21:05, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

Right, you guys, whether or not this law passes, you write your own tax laws from now on. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 21:18, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

No one said that, stop and listen. Like TM and QZ WE ALL LOVE THE ACT!!!!! Just want rates later. It's seems like you've shot yourself in the foot, just propose it without the rates and put them in at a later time. That way at least we have the outline Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:33, December 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sure, I'll just change it quickly, it's stupid really though and nobody will get what they want and Times idea of saying governments set it won't work, it actually needs to be in the law, there's a reason it is across the world. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:39, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that we should pass the law with changes. The states could have the power to set the rates. This would solve the problem in my opinion. Nobody is opposed to legalizing taxes. Just make a section that gives the states the power to set rates, and have a set amount of the taxes go to the federal government and a set amount to the state government. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 21:49, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't be a bad idea, but just as long as each state then gets a larger share of the tax money to fund its own projects. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 22:06, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

"Back to first chamber" again? 77topaz (talk) 23:06, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * NO write your own laws. This was to pass three different taxes. Not to pass every single tax you wanted and frankly I'm fed up with it. vote on it now and get it over with. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 23:28, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * REAL TALK: CLEAR THE AIR: Hoffman stop trying to apease people with ONE VOTE!!! They don't know what they are talking about and  case in point the solution QZ offered is the dumbest thing since the old name of his party. Now im really tired of the opposition to this bill! Entirely! It has no good reason to be denied approval except for petty stupid reasons. Personally fuck yeah i don't like the tax rates, but i'll but politics aside for one reason: So we can get taxing done. Again people who have one vote, and make no valid contribution, does not a good congressman make. Being a good congressmen is comprimsing, and making sure something and having taxes being collected, is better than nothing. Please vote pro. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:33, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * WHILE I"M ON A RANT: True, Hoffman this was pushed a bit too fast, and unlike your great long thought out laws, this one was sorta just shown there for a few hours then voted upon. If we actually plan this out with a few of the reforms(like an economic law book, which would include a budget and taxes) we could get this done. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:36, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * I was planning to do all that. Besides peoples problems here is that they want me to write a state tax law as well when I've just had it in the first chamber and when I've spent ages getting this together and specifying that this is just a federal tax and I can add a state tax to it later and the reason I can't do that now is the run up to mock exams, so just vote and then we can get it over with. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 00:49, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * But your currentgly voting contra xD and people aren't voting with there total number of congressmen Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:57, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's called a protest vote. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 01:16, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Protesting against your own law? :/ —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:51, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

No, it will work to have the government set it for every budget. It's the same reason we don't include all government sponsored teams in the Sports Act -- if we want to change something about the teams, or in this case, rates, we won't have to change the law to do so. Besides, we don't know how much money we actually need -- let's set a rate when we do know. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:50, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * It will only work as long as you set it by law to be only changed once a year or something similar. You can't be randomly changing rates all year round. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 11:05, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * If we leave tax rates out, then it would get passed by a large majority. Why don't we just pass it without rates, and then propose a new law in the first chamber that has rates? --Quarantine Zone (talk) 15:22, December 26, 2012 (UTC)