Forum:National Constitutional Convention

Welcome to the National Constitutional Convention of 2014 - 110 years after the Declaration of the Founding of the Lovian States - where we will be debating, updating and creating the new Lovia. As 110 years ago, our ancestors gathered around 100 delegates in the Capital and had them debate and decide the future of the many states and peoples that had formed in our Lovian land. Now we will come together again with 100 delegates and debate and decide the future of the many peoples of Lovia.

In one weeks time, on the 28th of October, we will have 100 delegates elected from the communities of Lovia. Together we will gather and form a new constitution and create a new stable era in Lovian history, free from uprisings and full of life.

From the 29th we will having timetabled debates and votes to create our new constitution. Slowly we will form a new framework from which we shall take strength, confident that we shall be leaving the stagnation and self-destruction of the past behind.

I hope to end this convention in either late November or early December. Then we shall have our new constitution and it shall be in time for the Federal Elections, in whatever form they take under our new constitution.

The public forum is open to all, but only delegates shall be allowed into the halls for debates and voting. Although there will be public seating and broadcasting the public will not be able to take part in the debates or voting.

Delegates Lounge
Here delegates are listed along with who they represent and empty delegate spaces are filled. Additionally you'll find the timetable for debates and votes here.

Please name your delegates and give their current employment, remember this is a-political so no parties allowed but if you really think one person is uber-popular (and I will challenge this if I don't think they are) then you can add them in.

Delegate List
And of course, like the declaration of the Lovian States, the Monarch shall be a delegate, representing Lovia not any one community.
 * Clymeni Delegates
 * Plains (2)
 * 4Kant,6
 * 4Kant,6
 * North Clymene (1)
 * 4Kant,6
 * South Clymene (1)
 * 4Kant,6
 * Sofasi (9)
 * 4Kant,6
 * 4Kant,6
 * 4Kant,6
 * 4Kant,6
 * 4Kant,6
 * 4Kant,6
 * 4Kant,6
 * 4Kant,6
 * 4Kant,6
 * Truth Island (2)
 * Horton11
 * Traspes
 * Kingser Delegates
 * Beaverwick (1)
 * Reximus55
 * North Kings (1)
 * Reximus55
 * Newhaven (13)
 * Reximus55
 * Reximus55
 * Reximus55
 * Reximus55
 * Reximus55
 * Reximus55
 * Reximus55
 * Reximus55
 * Quarantine Zone
 * Quarantine Zone
 * Quarantine Zone
 * Quarantine Zone
 * Quarantine Zone
 * West Kings (1)
 * Reximus55
 * East Kings (1)
 * Reximus55
 * South Kings (1)
 * Kunarian
 * Portland (2)
 * Reximus55
 * Kunarian
 * Oceana Delegates
 * East Hills (3)
 * Ooswesthoesbes
 * Ooswesthoesbes
 * Ooswesthoesbes
 * North Oceana (1)
 * Ooswesthoesbes
 * South Oceana (1)
 * Ooswesthoesbes
 * Hurbanova (15)
 * Ooswesthoesbes
 * Ooswesthoesbes
 * Ooswesthoesbes
 * Ooswesthoesbes
 * Ooswesthoesbes
 * Ooswesthoesbes
 * Ooswesthoesbes
 * Horton11
 * Horton11
 * Horton11
 * Horton11
 * Horton11
 * Quarantine Zone
 * Quarantine Zone
 * Quarantine Zone
 * Sevener Delegates
 * Northern Islands (1)
 * Kunarian
 * Philosophers' Island (1)
 * Kunarian
 * Novosevensk (3)
 * Kunarian
 * Kunarian
 * Kunarian
 * American Island (1)
 * Kunarian
 * Kinley (4)
 * Quarantine Zone
 * Quarantine Zone
 * Quarantine Zone
 * Quarantine Zone
 * Sylvanian Delegates
 * Discovery Isle (1)
 * Kunarian
 * Charleston (1)
 * Horton11
 * Headlands (1)
 * Kunarian
 * Train Village (2)
 * Kunarian
 * 4Kant,6
 * Plains (1)
 * Kunarian
 * East Sylvania (1)
 * Reximus55
 * Highlands (1)
 * Kunarian
 * Clave Rock (1)
 * Traspes
 * Bay Area (1)
 * Ooswesthoesbes
 * Noble City (24)
 * Ooswesthoesbes
 * Horton11
 * Horton11
 * Horton11
 * Horton11
 * Horton11
 * Horton11
 * Horton11
 * Traspes
 * Traspes
 * Traspes
 * Traspes
 * Traspes
 * Traspes
 * Traspes
 * Traspes
 * Traspes
 * Traspes
 * Traspes
 * Traspes
 * Traspes
 * Kunarian
 * Quarantine Zone
 * Quarantine Zone
 * King Sebastian I of Lovia

Timetable
Prior First Week Second Week Third Week Fourth Week Aftermath
 * 31st October	- Delegates decided
 * 1st November	- Sovereignty and Administrative Subdivisions debate start
 * 2nd November	- Freedoms, Rights and Responsibilities of Individuals and Citizenship debate start
 * 6th November	- End of debate on Sovereignty and Administrative Subdivisions, beginning of voting
 * 7th November	- End of debate on Freedoms, Rights and Responsibilities of Individuals and Citizenship, beginning of voting
 * 8th November	- Close of voting on Sovereignty and Administrative Subdivisions
 * 9th November	- Close of voting on Freedoms, Rights and Responsibilities of Individuals and Citizenship
 * 8th November	- Legislature, Executive and Judiciary debate start
 * 9th November	- Congressional Roles and Procedure debate start
 * 13th November	- End of debate on Legislature, Executive and Judiciary, beginning of voting
 * 14th November	- End of debate on Congressional Roles and Procedure, beginning of voting
 * 15th November	- Close of voting on Legislature, Executive and Judiciary
 * 16th November	- Close of voting on Congressional Roles and Procedure
 * 15th November	- Amending the Constitution and Amending the Law debate start
 * 16th November	- Ministries and Committees debate start
 * 20th November	- End of debate on Amending the Constitution and Amending the Law, beginning of voting
 * 21st November	- End of debate on Ministries and Committees, beginning of voting
 * 22nd November	- Close of voting on Amending the Constitution and Amending the Law
 * 23rd November	- Close of voting on Ministries and Committees
 * 22nd Nobember	- Justice System debate start
 * 23rd November	- Elections debate start
 * 27th November	- End of debate on Justice System, beginning of voting
 * 28th November	- End of debate on Elections, beginning of voting
 * 29th November	- Close of voting on Justice System
 * 30th November	- Close of voting on Elections
 * 1st December	- Implementation of the constitution

Public Forum
Welcome to all. Here is where you can talk about anything related to the convention.

Revert to former state governments
State councils will be unable to pass legislation at the moment due to larger inactivity. I propose that we switch back to governors and deputy governors to run the whole state (within their own rights of course). --Quarantine Zone (talk) 23:28, October 21, 2014 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. The discrepencies in activity between the states as well as inactivity as a whole make the current system as a whole (though not required by constitution?) unworkable. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:04, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

I think we need to simplify the system on the user side certainly. I think that devolution is important, we just need to not try and replicate the Congress five times in every state. I hope that you two will want to be delegates then. :D Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 21:24, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I think it would be much simpler to focus on a federal government. I don't see the benefit to devolution, and it's really not workable. I guess we could give a little more power to the governors but I honestly think it's hard to have both devolution and simplicity without tyranny, and simplicity is definitely more important at this point. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:28, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

Democracy has a sliding scale. At one end you get slow decisions and lots of protections, bureaucracy. At the other end you get fast decisions and few protections, autocracy. We must consider democracy in an IC and OOC way. OOC, the way we actually make decisions, we should aim to lean towards autocracy in State governments with constitutional courts to hold rogue governments to account. IC, the way we RP decisions, we should aim to be central in our approach and RP a completely democratic council.

To be clear, we shouldn't just be thinking about this just IC/OOC but also OOC/IC. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 23:35, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

I guess state councils are fine if they're entirely IC, meaning no OOC elections for them. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:55, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

It's lots of bureucracy to have state councils, elections, because we have little number of users. Traspes (talk) 00:04, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

I'd say, from the standpoint of an online, fictitious nation, it makes the most sense at this point to have a governor and dep. governor for each state (these will be actual users), and have a "fake" state council that is simply part of the fictitious country. That would allow us to keep the realistic part of the bureaucracy that we spent so much time setting up while maintaining state activity on the site. Personally, I supported the devolution movement of 2013, but the state councils were a poor implementation IMO. Now, due to limited user activity, I'd rather have evolution to the federal government that will allow us to pass laws with limited activity on the site. --QZ - RWCP 00:24, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

And do you think that we can create a state council (or territory council?), a legislature in Truth Island?? Traspes - Dianna Bartol 00:42, October 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Truth Island certainly needs devolution, but the form of that needs to be discussed. Forming a Truth Island State might not be the way forwards, but an autonomous region of Clymene might be the way that we give it the self-determination without causing too many issues. After all if Truth Island can be a State, what's to stop Philosophers' Island being a state? or Discovery Isle? or South Kings? We must think of the consequences of our actions and at the moment autonomy within their respective states is the best way forwards in my opinion for these more independent thinking territories. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 06:04, October 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not opposed to a South Kings State or Discovery Isle State but there's no interest for that in those areas. Apart from Marcus' coimments Traspes and I support autonomy, which would be exactly what you're thinking of as an autonomous region but not tied to any state, instead under the Lovian government. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:19, October 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * @ Traspes - Yes, there should be a local legislature for Truth Island in order to oversee local government functions, though it might be best to just have an IC legislature as is being proposed for the states. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:47, October 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * You don't think that Discovery Isle has any interest or South Kings? Firstly Pool alone has a deeper more full out history and culture than Truth Island and South Kings is an area with an actual history that is realistic AND interesting. I'm also interested in Truth Island but you need to start being realistic about it and its history or I'll have to side with Time and shut this down before it gets out of hand. And NO Truth Island will NOT be an effective state. It's Autonomy within Clymene. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 18:21, October 24, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with QZ on the idea of having an OOC/IC Gov./Dep. Gov., and then having a solely IC State Council that only "rubber stamps" the policies of the Governor and Deputy Governor. 01:39, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

Glad that we're on board with the idea of OOC pragmatism and IC realism on the State governments. One the implementation of State Councils, I believe they were too much work for a reduced number of users. Combined with other problems I think they led to the issues of stagnation. Devolution must be maintained I believe but we can now use the experience we've gained to implement it properly. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 06:01, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

I think we should focus on the federal government for our OOC politics and thus the federal government should be powerful. Though I don't think it was more state rights were added to the Constitution, so I guess it's fine as it is? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:39, October 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm aiming to do several things. Firstly is strengthen the Federal Governments ability to legislate while maintaining the ability of States to make their own laws but having the main thing about States be devolution of certain policies and spending. However the second part of that is more of policy than what the constitution will be. I'm also going to make courts actually operational, so that they can actually deal with things. Further I'm simplifying elections so that while we still have all the positions that an effective democracy needs, they will normally be decided by one or two elections and will have methods of replacing or substituting people should they become inactive so we don't have stagnation because one person is occupying a position and they aren't around anymore. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:13, October 24, 2014 (UTC)

Delegates sign-up
I'm assuming that everyone here wants to control delegates, if so, please indicate from which areas you would like to represent delegates so that we can start assigning delegates for the actual convention in the halls. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 05:56, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

I would be up for Beaverwick, North Kings, and parts of Newhaven, as this is the general geographic area that Dirk Brandt came from. Thanks, 07:13, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

Oceana of course. --O u WTB 09:34, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

TI, Oceana (Hurb if possible) and maybe NC. HORTON11 : •  13:01, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

I want, Noble City and Truth Island, because I have lot's of ideas, cultural, historic and more! Traspes - Dianna Bartol 14:57, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

Right, I'll start working out who gets what. Also the more places you select, the more spread out across these your delegate numbers will be. I'm going to be going for Sylvania, Clymene, Seven and South Kings btw. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 18:26, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

I've always been a Newhaven, Hurbanova, Kinley guy. Realistically, that's where I'd get my voting base based on previously elections, church centers, headquarters of Taiyō Alternate Energy, and residence of Justin Avant, Taiyō no Eisei, and Ucchi Kirishima. --QZ - RWCP 18:04, October 25, 2014 (UTC)

Plains for me please. --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 14:51, October 27, 2014 (UTC)

Self-determination for Truth Island
This is one of the main things I'd like to see discussed here, you can see some of the ideas at Talk:Truth Island self-determination. Essentially I'd like to see an arrangement for autonomy for Truth Island within Lovia. We might have to review the arrangement of power, rights and responsibilities for the states but for now I'd like to see a 5+1 arrangement. As an OOC reason this would bring about more things to work on (thus activity) and IC an increase (though not immediately of course) of revenues and thus more funds for Lovia to work on the postwar recovery. HORTON11 : •  16:05, October 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * When you see the time table there will be a section for this discussion. I have a plan that would give us a solution preferable to all. Autonomy within Lovia is not right. That's essentially being a State, which causes a million more problems than it fixes. And if Truth Island can be a state then Discovery Isle can, South Kings or Philosophers' Isle. This will cause endless problems and is unnecessary to give Truth Islanders the autonomy they want.


 * To be clear THERE SHALL BE NO 5+1 ARRANGEMENT. It will NOT increase activity for Lovia as a whole, it will not increase funds for Lovia. There is a lot of delusion about the idea of Truth Island Self-determination. Self-government is understandable, wanting to try and open your doors to gambling mega-corporations is not. First of all why would Truth Islanders want that, they have a long held tradition of an affinity with their local nature and your "off-shore" solution is just as wrong, no business would want to fund that and no business can get the massive incomes you are suggesting.


 * Taxes will not suddenly leap if Truth Island becomes completely autonomous. Instead it will most likely slump and decrease, after all Truth Island will have to generate its own cash (from a population that is certainly not rich) to spend. Lovia will not be subsidising them and I can guarantee when looking at a much larger, low tax, high tech nation like Lovia (minus TI) and comparing it to a tiny (They have 5000 less than population), high tax (to fund any basic level of spending), low tech (tourism and hotels are not technology) autonomous island like TI that business will jump to Lovia every time. The only way Lovia (and Clymene) might benefit is by putting up a toll on the bridge so that when people arrive in Noble City and take the road to Newhaven then the ferry to Sofasi and cross the bridge, Lovia will get some money.


 * The idealistic, separatist influenced dream of a magically prosperous Truth Island will not materialise. But my solution will give you the self-rule and ability to generate that extra activity without the negatives of having to take responsibility for yourself (which I state again, is really difficult when you are a tiny nation with very few taxpayers).


 * My solution is simple and easy to handle. It will involve creating a subdivision known as an autonomous territory. It will be within the state of Clymene but will sacrifice representation in the State Council and votes for the Governor in return for self-rule, its share of the devolved funding and the freedom to create its own by-laws instead of taking on those made by the Clymeni State Government. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 18:46, October 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Discovery Isle, South Kings, Philosophers' Isle - Truth Island does not need to be a state, and autonomy within Lovia will not amount to statehood nor anything above a state. But I'm all for autonomy for the areas you mentioned if it is wanted. With regards to "endless problems", remember these wise words [by Hannis]: A solution to a nonexistent problem is a problem in itself.
 * 5+1 ARRANGEMENT - Of course it will bring activity. There would be much to create, from local figures to public services, new companies and more. Funds can be increased by a lowering of taxes in the island, introduction of eco-tourism (as nature and the environment are important locally), further imrpovement on the current tourist sites in Adoha and basing online gaming in the island, which can create significant revenues from abroad.
 * Taxes will not suddenly leap - They won't, but tax revenues passed onto Lovia will. Truth Island could very well generate it's own funds but I'm not looking for complete isolation for Lovia. The island should be able to have modified tax and financial/business laws to attract investment and funds and at the same time a portion from those would passed on to the federal government.
 * I get where your concerns come from but a lot of it is just plain hooey and misinterpreting and misunderstanding some of the ideas I'm proposing. I wouldn't mind your proposal, though, but we'd need to establish a framework where Truth Island can have it's own legislature (as they'd no longer have representation in Sofasi) to pass regional laws and the ability to manage their internal affairs somewhat like a state. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 19:11, October 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * I want to give those areas autonomy but not as effective states.


 * It will not bring activity. You cannot boost the activity of an entire wiki by focusing on a single island with 5000 people. You are effectively ignoring the rest of the wiki and saying that as long as one area has activity the wiki is active. And public services? new companies? why do these have to be limited to Truth Island? or is this a vanity project of yours?


 * Further this statement makes no sense: "Funds can be increased by a lowering of taxes in the island" - you plan to increase the money you have by decreasing the money you get... you do also realise that there is no incentive to go to Truth Island over Noble City or any other more populated area of Lovia. Also tourism is already maxed out and what money will you use to invest in Truth Island's tourist sites? Who will you tax? You've said you're going to have less taxes but spend more, in other words you want to rack up debt and make everyone else pay for it.


 * Also "basing online gaming in the island, which can create significant revenues from abroad". How? please explain? Firstly you can't base online gaming in one place really and why would online gaming be in Truth Island when it could be in a place with a better connection speed like NC or Newhaven or Sofasi? And I don't know how you were expecting to gain revenues from it either.


 * You say Truth Island could generate its own funds but don't say how. You will ultimately have to raise taxes on the poorest and most vulnerable because if you raise taxes on the rich you ruin your idea of this business friendly investment island. I don't want that, I want the poorest to get the biggest break and I want to use the wider Lovian economy to help build up Truth Island and other debilitated regions but we need to work together. I can give you the autonomy and you can build up Truth Island without breaking the back of your people and without scaring away the business you wish to attract.


 * On my proposal, I'm glad you are on board and I agree about the framework I'm already writing up proposals and will put up the time-scale for debates and votes. Truth Island will be able to manage their affairs to a greater extent and will certainly have control over taxes in its territory (minus the federal taxes) and so will be able to lower its taxes in comparison to other parts of Lovia which will give you your investment friendly environment.


 * I really look forwards to getting this set up. And to be clear I've also worked out how to keep this nice and simple so we can return to a simpler, more active but also more organised government. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 21:00, October 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Did I say I was only going to focus on Truth Island? It may be the are of most interest at the moment, but it's definately no the only one, if you've read other ideas of mine. And it will bring activity and will extend to all of Lovia.
 * Lower taxes and business incentives will attract businesses, it's only logical, and anyways the target is mostly towards online business/commerce/services, so it won't be big box stores. There will be less taxes I should hope, but whoever said we'd be spending much more. Sure it might be a little more at the start but incoming revenues and of course federal aid will balance out spending.
 * Place with a better connection speed? - In the British Isles online gambling is mostly based out of Isle of Man and not London or other big cities. Revenues from that would be allowed through licensing companies and direct gambling companies from within Lovia. And I'm sure Truth Island has connection speeds comparable to the rest of Lovia; it's not some remote or backward little island.
 * You say Truth Island could generate its own funds but don't say how - I've mentioned it a few times already, actually, through ways such as online business and eco-tourism. Gimmicky ideas such as legalizing certain other things could further attract people and money. Now, the current idea I have, as stated previously is to keep low taxes, as to attract, not scare away investors and business and to help the average citizen, not break their back. The only expenses incurred might be towards improving public facilities, setting up a local police, just straightforward services. As I have read about so much, business will bring in more business and the trickle-down effect will bring prosperity; I might not agree completely with these ideas but if economists see that they work we must give it a shot. The poorest will get the biggest breaks and I hope Lovia will assist in the development of the island as in other areas, but as you so smartly said before, I'll need your cooperation on this. You can't always be pessimistic and we need to give these ideas a chance to function.
 * Time scales- we can go ahead with the proposed timelime I added on the self-determination talk page, though it will need to be modified and dates brought up if you want to speed things up. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 21:37, October 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * I have heard few other ideas that extend interest across Lovia and besides we first need to start fixing the issues that will harm Lovia in the long run, this will be one of them and we can carry out further great reforms that will generate activity as well!


 * Lower taxes will only be achieved with the backing of the much larger and more diverse Lovian economy and cannot be achieved as a lone island. Further business incentives are great right up until you realise that you cannot raise the funds alone and will need as I say again the backing of the Lovian economy to be able to implement incentives at any level.


 * Also online business will not want a place without all the utilities of a place like NC, Hurbanova or Sofasi. Further the Federal Aid you hope for will not be at the level you want it unless Truth Island is within Clymene and has the population weight there to gain any reasonable chunk of the devolved budget.


 * Your allegory in the UK is misplaced. Those industries are based in the Isle of Man because it is a tax haven (which actually means just stupidly low taxes not a lack of them) and the UK certainly isn't. Truth Island cannot be a tax haven because Lovia is to a good degree still effectively a tax haven. And while Truth Island might have comparable speeds, it will not have the fastest as it is simply not populous enough to merit being the pioneer for faster speeds. And that would be a business standpoint, not a political one.


 * Firstly, if you are within Lovia there is very little to "legalise" and secondly if you are within Lovia no separate police. Also this must be the first time a socialist is advocating trickle down economics. I believe we can work together but without staying within Lovian and with Clymene, you will miss the population weight Clymene gives you to truly grab the federal funding you want to make all these ideas possible. You can expand gambling, you can expand online business and you can increase tourism but it will be as an autonomous territory of Clymene not as an effective state.


 * Misunderstanding. The time-scale I talk of is the time-scale for this convention. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 19:23, October 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Again I am not seeking an effective state so please dispense with that argument already. And on your trickle-down response, I'm not a socialist. My personal views are broadly leftist to center left. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:52, October 25, 2014 (UTC)

I just wanted to comment that I strongly dislike the idea for Truth Island (as well as autonomy in general, including for Oceana, etc.) for no rational reason and would be grateful if it were abandoned. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:41, October 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Why? You seem to just oppose this and other issues just to oppose them. Granting autonoy to certain areas or giving expanded powers within a reworked constitution is the way forward for Lovia, as evidence in the past months. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:33, October 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * I know! And I feel like it might indeed increase activity, but it just feels wrong. And I know I oppose stuff randomly for no reason. But as I said, I just don't really like the idea. It's not really clicking for me. I think the main problem I have is the lack of precedent. It seems so random to just suddenly have all these self determination movements. Why would Truth Island want autonomy? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:36, October 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think Time has a cynical outlook, which is good really. He doesn't support things because they are popular but rather what he thinks is right. It's something I've always respected of him, and its why when I have the chance I've tried to vote for him. That point aside: We have lots of peoples who feel disgruntled and different and occasionally talk about running their own affairs. Oceana is the biggest of these, but they are luckily a State and so that problem is easily solved. Then you have the smaller issues like the way that the rest of Sylvania doesn't like the weight NC has in their State over them; the way that the people of Pool and Shepby feel that they aren't Sylvanian but Pudlian or Shepbeian due to their history as a vital point of internal trade; Or the way the Russians on Philosophers' Isle feel they are lorded over by the Americans of Kinley and historical issues grate that more; And lets not forget the Southern Kingsers who tried to create their own State in rebellion against what they viewed as a Newhaven elite. These all have a deep history and background. Then Truth Island has, what? Nothing really, apart from a few recent things but that's still pushing it a bit. I want an integrated history and culture that comes up with a logical pathway from colonisation to this move towards self-determination before I can back anything. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 03:34, October 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * @Time: You should certainly sign up for delegates then. I'd love to have your voice in this debate.
 * @Horton: I still support the autonomy for the various areas BUT I want to see some real actual development of Truth Island before ANYTHING is devolved. I'll help out, as I know the history of Lovia and can give you some pointers and advice (as well as help you avoid anything that runs against the official history) but unless developments happens on the backs of others then its really going to be hard to support this idea. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 18:51, October 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well feel free to help out on work in Truth Island. Much of the expected development in relation to the island would be done after autonomy is granted, or in preparation for it, though we could create a local legislature, health and education services etc. in advance. One further idea I had (a while back actually but had forgotten) is to produce coins and stamps for collectors. We issue them in the name of Truth Island and get some private mint like Pobjoy mint to produce them. Most of the small autonomous territories issue those to generate funds. Of course this will not mean a separate currency, as the coins would be in (Lovian) dollars. And same goes for Lovia. I can make stamps and coins can be minted to generate funds. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 12:54, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Development cannot be government institutions alone. I would like to see historical and cultural development before any autonomy is granted. I'm happy to help with this. We won't be making anything in advance btw, that's a tad assuming. Also those coins, notes and stamps are fine as long as they are not actual copies of Lovian coins, notes and stamps. You won't be allowed a private print for the Lovian Dollar because that like making TI an effective state raises a million more problems than the good it creates. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 13:18, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * The historical and cultural will certainly occur beforehand, I have a few ideas in mind. Coins, notes and stamps - Of course not. The coins and stamps would simply be the Lovian dollar with Truth Island's name on them; they wouldn't replace the Lovian dollar on the island as these are purely commemorative collectors issues and wouldn't see circulation. As for the stamps, we may want to implement those as well as a postal service for Lovia, seeing as we have none. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:31, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fantastic, as soon as that starts going I'll be over to chip in. They shouldn't be mistakable for an actual dollar or that could cause issues and might be considered forgery. Other than that, go nuts sounds like a cool idea. Also on the Lovian postal service. Again, not something for now, something for after this. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 13:33, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * CircUncirc.png common circulation coin is unlikely to be ever confused with a collector's coin; see right. Circulation coins (like our dollars and cents) are mostly cupro-nickel, struck in large quantities and made for regular use. and collectors coins are struck in precious metals and made in proof or other higher-quality strikes. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:52, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Personally, I'm going to have to side with Time on this one unless you really pull some good reason for the autonomy. Currently, the culture, history, population, and land area provide no reason for statehood or autonomy. If you can put together a good reason as to why the autonomy should be granted, I might support it, but the island will need culture and history in order for me to consider. --QZ - RWCP RWCP Logo.png 02:34, October 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm glad we have rationality here. I've been wondering where this has come from and so seeming as everyone else seems to be asking the same questions as I am, I'll stick with the "no history, no culture, no reason = no autonomy" stance that I've formed. Also welcome the to discussion QZ! Long time no see! :D Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 03:19, October 26, 2014 (UTC)

And the other, public housing
Not only cause of the displacement and destruction caused by the war, but I think it's good to have affordable housing for low-income families and individuals. HORTON11 : •  16:12, October 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * This is the place for constitutional discussion but this needs to be discussed once we are operational as a government again. Until then we really can't do much. But yeah, not here or now. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 18:24, October 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm with Kunarian here. --QZ - RWCP RWCP Logo.png 02:37, October 26, 2014 (UTC)

Kingdom?
So we all know that the the king is a figure head in Lovia. This topic is not part of the constitutional convention, but are we going to keep Lovia as a Kingdom under the new constitution or completely wipe the role of king and leave national representation up to the Prime Minister and Speaker? IMO, with a smaller user base, the king may be unneeded, but American bias may be a part of that. --QZ - RWCP 02:43, October 26, 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I think Americans are a minority here. Personally I'm fine with the situation as it is. It provides a nice cultural element, I think. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:06, October 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Same, culturally it's a big part of the nation and has given us an extra bit of flavour to our nation. Also (on an IC basis) the King (or Queen for that matter) serves the role of being a unifying figurehead, they don't have any real power and provide a bit of tourism revenue. There's no reason to change what is one of the few areas of the Lovian government that has never produced any real problems. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 03:23, October 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Without making any explicit statements on behalf of PL, I think that republicanism is preferable as compared to monarchy, even if it is constitutional monarchy. Privelege based upon inheritance is naturally wrong, and I think most people get that.
 * Additionally, the monarch (I believe) gets money from the state, which is also wrong. Is it a part of our culture? Yes. Should we pay for it? No. 02:23, October 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * This is not a political convention, this is a constitutional convention. Party politics should be left at the door. Additionally you must consider IC and OOC. OOC there's no good argument for ending what is a great addition to the wiki that creates opportunities to create content (one type of this being the debate around monarchy).
 * On the IC side: Saying privilege based on inheritance is wrong is like saying that people shouldn't be allowed to inherit their parent's business. Because that's about the equivalent within Lovia, because the Monarch inherits responsibility rather than privilege. Does the Monarchy have special powers or protections? no. Does the Monarchy have the duty to be the best representative of this nation and act in a manner that benefits the Lovian people? yes.
 * As for the money. No, we do not give the Monarchy one dime. They have their own businesses (tourism being one of them) and maintain their own finances and pay their own taxes. To be honest they should probably be paid a salary at the least for what they do but we don't pay them. Ours is the most cost effective (if also poorest and least lavish) in the world. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 08:09, October 27, 2014 (UTC)

How we could do devolution?
I have had an idea that could make the devolution issue much easier. Currently I'm writing up my proposals for each section and thought of a way we could simplify things without losing the level of devolution we have.

We could have Members of the Congress elected on a State by State basis (at least on an IC basis, OOC would need to be worked out) and if you wanted to make a proposal for one (or more) State only you could. Then debate would be allowed, and could include everyone, but voting on that would only include the MotC elected for that State which it concerns. This would eliminate State Councils while keeping the mechanism they fill, to create State laws and to have discussions and make decisions on State issues.

Further possible simplification could come in the form of eliminating State Law Books and instead having each Act in the Federal Law contain a bit that indicates the jurisdiction of the Act in question. for instance this:

This would be the best solution because it would also allow us to create special laws that can cover certain States and further it would allow us to give the role of Governor more meaning again. Comments please! Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 23:35, October 28, 2014 (UTC)

Would the congressional seats be based on population or divided equally? This sounds like another Connecticut Compromise to me... --QZ - RWCP 01:42, October 29, 2014 (UTC)

I'm strongly against the existence of any OOC state council-type entity. I think laws should only be debated and passed by our federal legislature (all 100 members at once, no separate MOTCs for states). But I think if in the federal law there are provisions for governors and local government (maybe?) to do some policymaking, that would be good. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:52, October 29, 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to go with an evolution policy from here on out and say that all laws should be passed in federal government and states will be given rights to policies and some small interpretation. All state governments - gov and dep gov IC and OOC and a council only IC. --QZ - RWCP 02:19, October 29, 2014 (UTC)

I'm very much contra to abolishing state laws. --O u WTB


 * To address every reply:


 * @QZ: population: That debate would need to be had. I see two viable formats as having 20 seats for Sylvania and 20 for Seven would be completely wrong. Firstly having it simple proportional and secondly (the preferred way and more nationally proportional), having it in proportion to those who voted. For example if there were 100 votes cast and 20 of those were in Seven, Seven would get 20 seats while if 30 of those were cast in Oceana, Oceana would get 30 seats and so on and so forth.


 * @Time: It wouldn't be an OOC state council. It would fulfil your wish of having everything done in Congress while compromising and allowing state laws to be created without adding another layer of legislatures. Also we must assign responsibility within this constitution to each level of government. That means that we cannot just say "Federal law" we must define what the Federal level (Congress, Ministries) does and what the State level (Governors, Councils) does and perhaps what minor functions should be given to a (possibly completely IC) local level. By being clear in the responsibilities we avoid future issues in who does what. This is like the way we have assigned management of planning to Governors, who have control over what is and isn't built within their States.


 * @Oos: Same, I was just trying to make a proposal that would allow us to have State Laws but do things in a much flatter manner like QZ and Time claim to want.


 * I think I will go with my original idea which was not this one and propose ideas around that. The original idea would be much similar to the current situation but with streamlining and a clear list of defined responsibilities attributed to each level of government. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 22:55, October 29, 2014 (UTC)

I am satisfied with the federal government writing "this power is devolved to the states" in a law in regards to certain policies that we would like to be devolved. A clear list is also fine but I definitely don't think devolution is that great or that it should be a focus. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:00, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

I personally disagree with TimeMaster on this one. Devolution, I think, is important to the Lovians from an IC perspective. The problem, I think, is the reconciliation of the OOC difficulty of having devolution with the in-game desire for devolution.

Personally, this proposal seems like a good solution to me. The Federal Government sets up what states are expected to do, and then allows Governors to take care of matters for an individual state. I do think there needs to be some check on Governor power, however, or else we end up like the 1960s States' Rights movement in the US with the States checking Federal progress in important areas. 00:23, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

Article 1 - Sovereignty
This Article will roughly replace Article 1 of the current constitution.

Questions to be answered:
 * 1) Where does sovereignty lie/What is the sovereign body within Lovia?
 * 2) What are the fundamental declarations of Lovia?
 * 3) Who is the head of State?
 * 4) Through what method can Lovia be bound to a foreign treaty?
 * 5) What structure will the Monarchy take?

Let the debate begin. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 11:20, November 1, 2014 (UTC)

I will be proposing an idea later today hopefully and we could look at what alterations we need to do for a majority agreement amongst the delegates. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 11:20, November 1, 2014 (UTC)

Article 2 - Administrative Subdivisions
This Article will roughly replace Article 4 of the current constitution.

Questions to be answered:
 * 1) What administrative subdivisions lie beneath the federal level?
 * 2) How is Lovia divided into these subdivisions?
 * 3) What are the responsibilities of the federal level and the subdivisions?

Let the debate begin. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 11:20, November 1, 2014 (UTC)

I will be proposing an idea later today hopefully and we could look at what alterations we need to do for a majority agreement amongst the delegates. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 11:20, November 1, 2014 (UTC)

Oceana has fought a long time to achieve its independence and we are not willing to give it up; let that be clear :) --O u WTB 12:12, November 1, 2014 (UTC)