Forum:Clymene State Council

This is the official chamber of the Clymene State Council In Clymene, the State Council is the legislative body that can change and alter the State Constitution and State Law. They meet in the legislative building at 3 First Street, Intercity, Sofasi, in the forum and the building also houses the other various departments of the State Government. While the forum is not open to the public, all Clymeni are encouraged to get in touch with their locally elected Councilors.

If you are apart of this chamber here are the listings for your seats.
 * C. Jones - 6 seats
 * J. Abrahams - 5 seats
 * M. Villanova - 5 seats
 * M. Cebara - 5 seats
 * L. Hoffmann - 2 seats
 * N. Sheraldin - 2 seats

001. Forming Villanova I
Hey everyone as Governor of Clymene i'm officially opening the Government so we can have deabtes and pass laws. Since the United Left won 15 of the 25 seats in the last elections we will form the Government. I will appoint my other collegues to ministry positions which will help oversee what occurs in the government. If anyone would like to join the government hopefully we could work something. I will be First Minister, Minister of EC and Minister of LIT, Justin Abrahams' will be Minister of IP and Health, and Marcel will be Minister of FWE and SI.
 * First Minister - Marcus Villanova
 * Minister of Immigration and Population: Lee Chang
 * Minister of Fishing, Water, and Environment: Nancy Creole
 * Minister of Labour, Infrasturcture, and Transportation: Christopher Hawkins
 * Minister of Health: Justin Rodriguez
 * Minister of Social Issues: Julian Ng
 * Minister of Economy and Commerce: Tanya Yeoman

Pro

 * 5 Seats Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:43, November 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 seats Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 16:53, November 11, 2013 (UTC)

Contra
✅ After a voting period the measure is approved 100%-0% Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:44, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

Damn, I was gonna vote. HORTON11 : •  16:00, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

It was open for six days. I'll be purposing a transportation bill soon y'all can vote on that :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:02, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

002. Transportation (Nationalizaiton) Bill
Lovia needs public transportation for ecological safety and so that every citizen can work freely and have the option to have cheap and affordable transport. The fighting against small private companies is making each company loose money and failing the public. This bill will be able to imporve the Clymene economy but also create a reliable and accountable transportation authority.
 * 1) All public transportation services which greatly serve the populous of Clymene are owned by Clymene
 * 2) All public transport companies which use public buses are now owned by the state.
 * 3) Transportation companies which will now be state owned by the state, are the following:
 * 4) Bus Transport: InterBus
 * 5) These companies will be seized for a fee to be negotiated between the government and the owners of the companies.
 * 6) Once owned by the government the companies will be administered by the Clymene Ministry of Labour, Infrastructure, and Transportation and the Clymene Transportation Authority (CTA).
 * 7) The CTA will be comprised of ten members of the state council who will have the power to set fares, create or change existing routes, request money from the budget, hire new workers and payments, buy models of buses and set all rules and regulations for the companies.
 * 8) The board will will be appointed and led by the Minister of Labour, Infrastructure and Transportation and Governor.
 * 9) The members of this board are not removed until an election or the whole of the body recalls them for inactivity or unruly behavior.
 * 10) The CTA has the power to change the rate of fare once every 30 months. The maximum change that can be done to any rate of service is 10% lower, or 5% higher.
 * 11) Any changes to line services and fare must be notified to the public 50 days prior to the actual change. New maps must be made and distributed to the public in large quantities near public transportation and notified on buses. When rate changes are made they will be notified in the front of the bus, on the train and arouns railway stations, and near ferry stations.
 * 12) All bus transport companies will be comprised into one company administered by the CTA and Government, called ClymeniBuses
 * 13) During the period of transition the CTA will vote to keep the most successful and used lines from all three services to create the new state owned company.

Discussion
I and the CNP will have to oppose this bill. Firstly it is an attack on private industry and the freedom to engage in economic activities. This bill would seem to imply that private companies cannot operate in Clymene in the transport sector by and large. Major transport companies that operate across Lovia will now be barred from operating in Clymene. This action is protectionist and an attack on Lovian unity. While bus transportation is a matter which isn't that divisive and neither is rail. However most companies that perform trade with Clymene do also operate ferries, this legislation will damage their income and will therefore impact the lives of their employees, who by and large live in other states.

This bill is anti-Lovian and protectionist in its current form and for those reasons I cannot support it. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 17:19, November 23, 2013 (UTC)

I have to vehemently oppose your accusations of the bill being anti-Lovian, Kunaria. Those are the remblings used by the far-right and fascists against socialism. This bill is most definately not an attack on Lovian unity. That said, this bill IS going too far in that it nationalizes all forms of public transport.

Buses in the state would do well under a single unified system. A state-owned transport company would be a good idea like you've proposed, though at the same time, with sufficient regulation and state oversight we can allow bus systems to be privately owned/operated. As well, we could even implement a hybrid public/private system, whereby some routes in certain areas are private buses and others public, but as a single system with equal prices and access.

I have to disagree on state-owned ferries as they should be allowed to operate on their own, as long as the follow the law and implement fair and similar prices. As for the trains, they should be state operated as in Europe, but such a system would work best under a national system, involving rail in all the states. HORTON11 : •  18:11, November 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * A bill that would cause the people of the different states to feel wronged by another state would damage unity, it would cause those in Kings or Sylvania to call the Clymeni self-centred and not acting in the interests of all of Lovia and we all know where such things can head, it always starts with simple friction and ends with hostility. To call this legitimate concern for the unity of Lovia, the freedom of enterprise and the wellbeing of employees across Lovia not just in Clymene can hardly be called fascist or far right. It is simple common sense! I have to question why you are saying these things, it would seem to be for no reason other than to cause division.
 * As I say, I do not disapprove of a unified bus system or even of a unified train system, provided that freedom of enterprise is maintained. Surely if a private enterprise could maintain quality but be cheaper than the state system we should not discourage that. Such competition could even be learned from to help better the state controlled system.
 * However I am glad that some changed have been made but I think we should give time for further consideration and constructive criticism to ensure we pass a solid, foolproof bill. We do not want to be vague or leave loopholes. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 18:43, November 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Didn't Oceana do this, I mean nationalization of a transportation industry? And didn't some of these buses go to Sylvania, I mean obviously the Sylvanians are not calling the Oceanians "self centered" and not acting in Lovia's interest? Also it depends on what you think nationalization serves, a matter of opinion. The current private system would actually not be very beneficial to anyone, not even the companies themselves. Remember Clymene a State with 30,000 people and several well sized competing companies trying to get those people on their buses, would probably each run a loss, unless they charged huge prices. A nationalized bus company would create cheaper prices and a greater number of well run service lines. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:53, November 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then why not simply create a national train/transport service? I don't think that any state would feel wronged by nationalizing transport, only the private companies themselves. And Marcus, how do you plan to nationalize those companies for the state if many operate most services outside of Clymene? All Lovia Omnibus doesn't operate in Clymene, Interbus runs in several states and Eo is the state transport company of Seven. Ideas I have are to either 1. Create a new state-owned company and purchase Interbus' Clymene operations, 2. just simply allow bus companies to freely operate in the state, so long as they follow government regulations you have set up, 3. create a state-owned company to work certain routes and allow private businesses to work others but under a same framework and following the laws you're proposing here. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 19:57, November 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Marcus: The situation in Oceana is different, they simply nationalised Interbus in Oceana and did not restrict private companies from working in the state. Comparing this move to Oceanas rather passive nationalisation is not a good comparison.


 * And as stated the main issue of conflict between states would be your refusal to allow any private company refuse nationalisation and then restrict them from operating in the state. It means that only the Clymeni state can, this is what will cause the issue, especially when major shipping and ferry companies reside in the southern states. You are practically attacking the southern economies.


 * Also you are right to a degree about the companies but you would only be fully right if they were Clymene only companies but they are not, many are Lovian companies! They do not charge extortionate prices like you claim and nor do they make a loss because Clymene is not the only part of their operations, instead the fixed costs are spread out amongst all Lovia. So it is not bad for private industries and nor should the state try to declare it so and stop people from having freedom of enterprise.


 * @Horton: You are clearly not understanding that the stand I and my party made was and still will be against both the nationalisation of ferries and the barring of private enterprise in the markets a state corporation operates in. At worst it will push entrepreneurs from here to other states! Also do not separate companies and people as if one is independent of another, companies are made of the people! You act as if private companies are an evil and malignant being, when in reality they are the very people you claim to serve.


 * Also I do believe he plans to nationalise all private property of those companies that are in the state of Clymene not outside. However, I like your presentation of solutions, I would prefer number 2 as it has the least implications and would allow us to set up a comprehensive system for ensuring quality and protection for consumers. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 21:29, November 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Kunarian- You are clearly not understanding that I do not feel it necessary to bar private corporations or nationalize ferries, which are comments I made before. Companies should be kept separate from people, we don't want legal persons like the US. That said, they are not necessarily evil which is especially true of Lovia. Next time, don't put words in my mouth.
 * Both of you should keep in mind that ONLY Interbus operates in the state. None of the other two have any presence in the state and should be removed from this. Other than that the bill seems ok, but I will have to look it over again. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 22:04, November 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * I made it clear what I was talking about in my first comment, protection of private enterprise and the unity of Lovia. And yet you attacked me for being far right and fascist, I in the comment you just responded to, reinforced that as you seem to be confused as to my priorities.


 * Also do not confuse the fact that people make up companies with support for companies being such devious 'persons' as they are in the US. And I didn't put words in your mouth, in response to me telling you that people who work for companies that work for companies in the other states that would be negatively affected by this bill would feel wronged by the state of Clymene you clearly said that you felt that states, and I assume you meant people of those states, would not feel wronged only private companies would. Can you not see how what you seemed to say was not caring of how private companies would be affected? in spite of the people of the other states that would be wronged!


 * On the actual matter of the bill, I feel I will have to vote against the nationalisation for the same reasons that my affiliates did in Oceana, however me and my party will assist in plugging holes and recommending adjustments even if we cannot fully support the end product. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 22:36, November 23, 2013 (UTC)

I removed the parts on Trains (owned by the feds mostly already) and ferries (a small compromise?) mainly because it deals with out of state transport and would be a bit overreaching. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:31, November 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * This is good, but fix the part about Eo and ALO. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 22:04, November 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * In defense of that again it brings us back to the Oceana situation. If I make sure Interbus (acting as ClymeniBus) even without the legal monopoly Eo and ALO will go out of business. Its better to buy them out, make sure their employees are in the nationalized company, Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:17, November 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not think so, they clearly have competed with Interbus in the past, how will this be changed? I think that all it will do is be spending extra money unnecessarily so. Additionally the Oceana nationalisation of Interbus was not a nationalisation of all bus services in Oceana, as several companies still operate through there, particularly coach companies taking people on long journeys all the way from Hurbanova to Newhaven. More importantly you must remove the barring of private enterprise in the sector. It will only cause problems. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 23:28, November 23, 2013 (UTC)

Woah! There's been a lot of debate here already! I'm going to have to agree with Horton on this one, I think that a state-wide transportation authority is good, but I'm not sure that we should restrict private companies. If we only have one transport company then they can basically charge what they like as customers have no other travel options. But if we have the state transportation thing, and then a couple of private operators, then they will charge smaller prices as they compete to attract customers. As Horton said, we should allow private companies to operate, just under some state regulation. Crucially, I would support this bill, but I think we should make some changes first Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 23:37, November 23, 2013 (UTC)

I eliminated Eo and ALO primarly, they serve Clymene very little or not at all. I still think we need this bus bill all the same. And now with smaller nationalization, this bill should be voted on soon. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:41, November 23, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think we should vote on the bill soon! I will definitely support a state transportation authority, but I don't think we should restrict private companies. Oh, and a quick suggestion... We could have something like a London Oyster Card that people can use to pay for travel on state-operated buses. I think there's a similar thing in New York, I just can't remember the name! Anyway, we should look into that :) Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 23:47, November 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * The only problem I still forsee without making the CTA not have a legal monopoly is the fact what other company could compete? In reality no other Clymeni public-non-luxury bus company really exists at all and couldn't really even turn a profit. The oyster card is a fabulous idea but wouldn't be incorporated into law, it would be taken up as a matter for the CTA which will probably include 5 UL, 4 CNP, 1 GP. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:51, November 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, I don't think there are any competing bus companies. Even if there aren't other bus companies, I don't think we should not allow it. In other words, anyone who wants to start a bus company should be allowed to, even if the only one is the CTA Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 23:55, November 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * I would like the CNP on board...@Kunarian - If I remove part 7 would you get on board? Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:00, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * I could but not fully until we've made sure this bill is foolproof. I can always support the regulation even if I oppose the nationalisation due to similar reasons as in Oceana. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 00:04, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

(I will leave this here as I was going to post it before villanova posted)I agree we are making progress but we should not rush to vote, I think there needs to be at least one or two days of further consideration before we move it to a vote, so that we can mull it over in our minds just in case we are missing something. And I am glad that there are voices within UL who recognise that there is no need for the attack on freedom of enterprise, it serves no purpose in furthering the aim of this bill which is to provide affordable transport. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 00:04, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

Bring yourself together before I remove or keep part seven. Then tell me. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:08, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * See two above replies. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 00:16, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * So its a no, no matter what? Horton where do you stand on section seven? Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:18, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * If affordable transport is the goal again the monopoly is essential. Too many companies with a small population will create higher prices since not enough people will ride the buses everyday. Marcus/Michael Villanova 02:31, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it's a no if we don't look over the rest of it and make sure it's foolproof and it's a no if section 7 doesn't go. And you're wrong, if you're operating a state bus system then private companies are unlikely to compete with you by going on the same routes or trying to offer the same quality for lower prices. They're likely to go for niche markets. Banning them means that you both violate freedom of enterprise and severely hinder any sort of innovation in the public transport market. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 09:20, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * It only bans the really only instate transportation option. I removed the ferry and train operations for the "freedom of enterprise". I let go of those do to the possibility of how they might effect other states (shipping costs). But the bus maps and plans for the CTA (see User:Crystalbeastdeck09/Politics) are already extensive and will be able to offer extensive service. If another private company opens, what ever niche is their (seems like there would be none), it will hurt the public sector and the people. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:01, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Just because you think they are good enough does not mean they are the service everyone will want or need. And you claims that a private company opening will hurt the public sector and people is ridiculous! And people find niches, I can promise you that and if they find a niche but live in Clymene then this legislation will lead, at worst, to that person probably leaving for another state to take their entrepreneurship elsewhere. We do not want a brain drain in this state which has always been hitting above its weight in industry. It is simply both wrong due to fundamental rights of enterprise and wrong due to the fact that it is unnecessary to even do it. The negative effects of a ban on private enterprise are numerous and the positive effects are none. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:20, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well they already need public transport, in fact the only bus company there is, is Interbus. The whole idea of "niche" is pointless tell me a possible bus ride that could be taken that isn't in those maps or already able to be made with the public train system. None! The only thing I could think of is, and this is not banned, luxury buses for long rides. What entreprenurship could their be? Any private company would look at the landscape and notice it would be impossible to find that "niche" or even turn a profit. Side note, businesses don't have rights, please stop claiming their is a "fundamental right of enterprise". I agree with you to a degree, but you know as I do, that governments regulate and control matters of the economy so the public is best served, which in this case they will be. The effects are such, and how you spin them is your own opinion. No private-public bus transport, cheaper costs, accountable busing authority, more lines to connect the state. Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:32, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * You must be insane you really are, the simple fact that you have a deep rooted hatred for business and some crazy communist, beyond socialist ideas about how this world works truly scares me and will probably mean Clymene will fall behind the other states. The looseness of the terms you have described for the state monopoly means that you can practically stop any sort of transportation company that would serve members of the public via the use of buses or coaches from operating. This looseness of terms is not only dangerous from a legal point of view but discourages any sort of investment in public transport in Clymene.


 * And on the matter of right to enterprise, it is not a right of businesses, you puffed up champagne socialist, it is a right of people. You really are going off the deep end. Your deep seated hatred for any sort of business is truly terrifying. And I worry for the freedom of the people of Clymene.


 * And on your so called benefit analysis, how do you make cheaper costs? I'll go easy on you as few UL members seem to grasp any concept of business. Costs are not prices, costs are things such as wages for bus drivers. So under this public transport system I assume you'll pay bus drivers less or maybe fire some. Or will you attack mechanics and upkeep costs for buses, I'm sure you think that Clymeni won't mind their bus system breaking down every two seconds. Or maybe you'll just not pay for fuel and hope that the buses run on your magical belief that costs can be made lower without any effect on people.


 * For many reasons, I am afraid I will have to leave this meeting as a matter of protest and I will confer with the media and national congress members to endeavour to inform the electorate of Clymene of your terrible plans that will lead to this great state falling behind. I do not think that the communism you're forcing on Clymene is what the people voted for. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:07, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ooo name calling, I guess the county council hasn't taught you that much. I must say, you do have a way of combining words to make it seem liek your actually saying something of use, but usually there is nothing of substance. Just fear and random assertions of "you commie" and "(insert state here) will fail without me and the CNP" Go on your witch hunt you scoundrel and protect the rich. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:16, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Concerning "Ooo name calling, I guess the county council hasn't taught you that much", you really are child aren't you. And "Go on your witch hunt you scoundrel and protect the rich" this is almost laughable, what marxist story book did you rip this from. I hardly think allowing people to start their own businesses is protecting the rich. You really do get upset easily don't you.


 * It really is this simple Marcus, you are the person who cannot spell simple words, you are the person who does not know the difference between costs and prices, you are the person who is constantly preoccupied with some silly notion that anything making a profit is evil. You want to make public transport super cheap, who is going to pay for that? it'll either be everyone through expensive taxes or the workers who will have terrible wages. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:39, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think you understand basic logic. You obviously felt that you couldn't use logic or reason to defend a position so you went to name calling first (a rather weak argument position). This included "insane" and "crazy". If you don't like my insults back at you and you are under the impression that they aren't as good as your grand insults then I am sorry. I'm still waiting to hear some good responses to this other than fluff. You just insult and get angry instead actually deabating. Your only arugments were that nationalization would harm the people. I countered by saying their is only one company anyway, why not make sure that one company is controlled by the people and able to offer good transportation. The idea that this nationalization is an attack on enterprise is not actually able to be applied. Also, to prove your point you should state why nationalization is bad, not just assume everyone already thinks its bad. I think profit is bad? If this were actually true, instead of some fear tactic, i would have nationalized everything (shops, farms, sports) but I don't. I only want the services which are most prominent in people's lives (education, healthcare, transportation) to be regulated so that they are accountable and able to be owned with the people in mind. This negative notion around nationalization is sad, because according to you it also implies crappy ownership. As if the CTA would literally set prices at 25 cents or 10 cents. To be honest at the most, prices will be lowered only a smidge. Some of your councilors will probably be on the CTA so you'll be able to control it then as well.
 * Wrong. I simply gave up trying to convince you because as usual you are set in your ways, and of course there's nothing like a good verbal cuff to remind someone that they aren't untouchable. Unfortunately you seem to have missed everything that I said and dismissed it as unreasonable, however luckily you did listen to me concerning trade and state monopolies, albeit under duress. And you seem to have aptly forgotten these successfully debated points when conversing after those changes.


 * Additionally, interestingly you claim that you want to make sure that the company, Interbus, is operating properly. You own that company, and interestingly enough are making the most money out of these deals. However according to your logic soon Interbus will go out of business as it only would now be operating in Seven, which is only one state and that apparently is an impossible situation for any business to survive in. It would seem investors in Interbus have been sold short.


 * Also you wrongly put words in my mouth, but let's deconstruct this sentence: "This negative notion around nationalization is sad, because according to you it also implies crappy ownership." Firstly my negative notion is because you are making money out of this, as you did in Oceana, you have been strategically selling off your company piece by piece to state governments. Further point out where I think that nationalisation means crappy ownership, that has never been my argument at any point.


 * Finally on prices, 25 or 10 cents, we'll debate this later of course but it concerns me that you have plucked these out of thin air. This price seems so low that taxes will have to be used to completely subsidise the system which would mean those that don't use it would be disenfranchised, as said we will debate this later in the CTA but I feel that the majority of the revenue to run the service should come from those that use it. Personally I feel we should stop this and move on however and debate the finer details in the CTA and hope it doesn't just become party lines as per the usual. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 22:16, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yes I do go around thinking i'm untouchable, sure. Let's not confuse compromise with admitting defeat, and not to say compromise is a bad thing. I still think sectin seven would have made the law better. Just an opinion. I let it go because my own party had problems so it was let go. The part about Interbus is interesting, because while defending capitalism and those at the top you find me in suspicion. With no proof, but its interesting. At what point is nationalization okay, I'd like to know your ideas on this. And agreed, now that it has passed the next move will be the CTA to set prices and approve the bus routes. Also get 4kant to be active he controls 6/8 of your votes and 3/5 of the votes on the CTA Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:50, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Compromise with admitting defeat, not at all, simply pointing out how you seem to have forgotten those areas of debate that worked out successfully rather than in name calling. And interestingly you seem to once again confuse my leaning with this sentence: "while defending capitalism and those at the top you find me in suspicion" you seem to have confused me yet again with a cartoon in your story book. Trust me, this sort of strawman stuff really won't help you. Especially when my party has almost solely been concerned with bettering the lives of those at the bottom ruts of society. However stereotypes aside, I look forwards to negotiating on the CTA. And I'll look into 4kant. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 23:14, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not many words are spelt wrong, I don't think any are really spelt wrong. Even if they were it doesn't make my points any less valid. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:26, November 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * I should say this statment of "the people didn't want this" clashes with a principle within classical liberalism, which you defend, "consent of the governed". The people, literally a month ago, voted us in with the platform of publicly owned transport, healthcare, and education. If they didn't want it they would have voted for your platform but they didn't and now we have a majority plus two so yeah the people did want this. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:25, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * The people (which in reality largely composes of you, horton and frijoles) did vote for a public transport, health and education system. I never denied that, but what you keep on trying to do is beyond that. So go ahead with your socialist/communist state and protectionism and self-centered action but don't expect it not to come to any negative effect. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:39, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

@ S.7- I'm mostly neutral on that. I do agree that a public bus system would be better for the state, though barring companies from having a presence in the state is bad (we could allow them to operate inter-city and state routes and have urban routes served by public buses). That said, no private bus company has yet to serve Clymene apart from Interbus (and it was at my invitation they began running buses here) and I find it highly unlikely that we'll see others want to come here. HORTON11 : •  15:52, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a non issue in a way Kunarian would say "this is an infringment on private enterprise" but no other company wants to play. I'm going to strike that part and go on with voting in a few hours. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:09, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

Before I vote, can I have some clarification? Are private companies allowed to operate? Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 16:20, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

Part seven was removed so yes. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:23, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

@Horton - yes private companies are allowed

Voting
Nationalization of busing industry, no public monopoly. 50 percent of the votes cast are needed to be Pro to pass.

Pro

 * 5 Votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:18, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 16:28, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes.  HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:47, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes. 77topaz (talk) 01:48, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Contra
15 votes, at least a 50% majority Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:46, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

@topaz - these votes are live for at least a week. so continue the voting. Marcus/Michael Villanova 02:02, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

✅ With a 100% majority Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:27, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

003. CTA composition
To set up the first CTA, as acting LIT Minister, will appoint the ten members. I think this is a fair council 5-5. Concerning the rules of the council, if everyone does vote on a measure in the CTA, everyone needs at least one vote from the other side. Of course 50% of all votes cast is the bear minimum. Concerning Education and Healthcare, most likely, they too will need councilors to oversee them, and the Green Party will be represented. It just seemed important that the CNP were represented on this council. - Christopher Hawkins 21:45, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) M. Villanova (MV) - UL
 * 2) Chistopher Hawkins (MV) - UL
 * 3) Nancy Haworth (Frijoles) - UL
 * 4) Julian Ng (Frijoles) - UL
 * 5) Dexter Reynolds (Horton) - UL
 * 6) Julia Thompson (Kunarian) - CNP
 * 7) Richard DeAnglio (4Kant) - CNP
 * 8) Lukas Kamien (4Kant) - CNP
 * 9) Ryan Wong (4Kant) - CNP
 * 10) Rosie Oberman (Kunarian) - CNP

004. Routes for ClymeniBuses(CTA)
As head of the CTA, we must address the essentials of ClymeniBuses.

Sofasi

 * Red Line - S1 - Sofasi Downtown to Milerose
 * Brown Line - S2 - South Downtown to North Milerose to Intercity
 * Cyan Line - S3 - West Downtown to Hightech Valley
 * Pink Line - S4 - North Downtown to North Milerose
 * Green Line - S5 - Downtown to Hightech Valley to Intercity (west alternative line runs only three times a day)
 * Yellow Line - S6 - Hightech Valley to Intercity to South Milerose
 * Blue Line - S7 -  Hightech Valley to Intercity (north alternative line runs three times a day)
 * Aqua Green Line - S8 - (starts in Intercity parks) Loop from Intercity to Milerose to Intercity

Plains

 * Red Line - P1 - Plains Beach to Railway to East Plains
 * Green Line - P2 - Railway to Market to North Plains (Lower alternative route runs twice a day)
 * Blue Line - P3 - Plains Mark to North Plains and on to Rosendorp (Runs seven times during the morning, twice in the afternoon, five times at dusk)

Cornwall

 * Red Line - C1 - North Enertainment to Different shops in the South
 * Blue Line - C2 - Town Center to shops to residential area
 * Purple Line - C3 - Police and Firefighters to residential area to East Abington (south and north routes each rune four times a day)

Adoha

 * Orange Line - A1 - Fergy Place to Atrium and Downtown Adoha to Railway to Clinton  (Service to Clinton will run across the Clinton Way twice in the morning and twice in the afternoon, addition service may be added in an agreement which would add more service to Clinton in order so citizens would not be able to have a car and impact the enviorment since that has been an issue)
 * Green Line - A2 - Fergy Beach to Middle Adoha to Railway
 * Blue Line - A3 - Fergy Beach to Fergy Place to Town Hall
 * Red Line - A4 - Town Hall to Fergy Place to Middle Adoha to Railway



Lisney

 * Orange Line - L1 - Lisney Town Hall to residential homes to sea side downtown (alternate south route to other residential homes, regular route runs three times in the morning and night, alternate route once in the morning, once at night)
 * Purple Line - L2 - Lisney Town Hall to midtown to Newland Park in Intercity (alternate northern route runs once a day and at night, the sourthern route runs three times a day and three times at night)



West Clymene

 * Green Line - WC1 - (runs three times during day, runs three times during night) Xiandu Commerce Center to roads to Timber Harbor Docks
 * Blue Line - WC2 - (runs three times during day, runs three times during night) Xiandu Commerce Center to roads to Timber Harbor Docks to roads to Feltmolten
 * Red Line - WC3 - (runs twice during day, twice during night)



North Clymene

 * Brown Line - NC1 - (runs twice during day, twice at night) Nongye Town Square to New Aberdeen Armstrong Company to Plains Railway



NorthEastern Clymene (NEC)

 * Blue Line - NEC1 - (runs three times during the day, three time during the night) - Rosswood Homes to Eastwood Church to Plains Market
 * Pink Line - NEC2 - Eastwood Church to Cornwall Town Square



Glesga

 * Purple Line - G1 - Glesga Clerk's Office to Xiandu Commerce Center (runs two mini buses in morning, one at noon and three in the evening)

Discussion
Obviously some comments must be had. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:56, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

Milerose is to the west of Sofasi center. HORTON11 : •  16:27, November 26, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I also thought Milerose was to the west. And what are the black lines? Rivers and streams? 77topaz (talk) 19:25, November 26, 2013 (UTC)

Check the Sofasi Map, it says Milerose is east to Downtown sofasi. Blue means body of water, black means a break in the map. Like from Linsey to Sofasi map has one. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:48, November 26, 2013 (UTC)

The Milerose page says west, though. 77topaz (talk) 22:00, November 26, 2013 (UTC)

fixed. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:13, November 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * It's not as easy as that. The Milerose map is made to be in the west of Sofasi.  HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:14, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * It actually can't. Sofasi Downtown has a railway running which has to be connected to Hightech Valley, if you switch Milerose and Downtown the railway makes no sense and can't even connect. Intercity in the northeast remains as well. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:24, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not switching Milerose with downtown. Milerose was originally to the west of Sofasi, and if you look at the street numbers, they increase from right to left, with those in Milerose higher than those in Sofasi. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:59, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * The street numbers don't really make sense either way. Or am I missing something? Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:09, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * They run from east to west, with Sofasi to the east of Milerose. (ex. History Avenue). There is a gap in the numbers since when I created milerose it was not directly conjoined to Sofasi center and I assumed there'd be a few houses between the two.  HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:16, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * But it didn't make sense with the railway not being connecting to Hightech Valley. Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:20, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * If you mean the Clymene Central Railway, it does connect HV to Sofasi, since HV is directly north of Sofasi center. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:23, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah but if Downtown is on the east then the railway would have to go across the city. Would that really work? Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:28, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sofasi could be to the center, if Intercity is to the east. And regardless the railway doesn't have to go across. It goes straight down from HV tthoigh sofasi center. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:34, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * The numbers (on the one avenue that correlates) is fixed. With no more debate or problems can the CTA Members vote? Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:49, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * You'd still have to change the Boardwalk addresses (and honestly it would've been just easier to not move Milerose).  HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:51, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * I moved it months ago, nothing was said then. And whether or not its easier isn't the problem. If you set the map up wrong, you set it up wrong. So it needed to be changed. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:20, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * And it's fixed. So without any other objections. Can their be a vote on this? The CNP is not commenting... Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:22, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't really have anything to comment or to complain about :P I'm fine with the system. 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 17:58, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

The former Interbus system only served Plains, Adoha, and Sofasi. It now serves the entire state with lines which allow for interstate travel.
 * Sofasi - 10 Lines (one of them to Lisney, one of them to Feltmolten)
 * Plains - 5 Lines (one of them to Rosendorp, one of them to New Abderdeen and Nongye, one of them to Eastwood and Rosswood)
 * Adoha - 4 Lines (one of them to Clinton)
 * Cornwall - 4 Lines (one of them to Abington, one of them to Eastwood)
 * Xiandu - 3 Lines (two to Timber Harbor, one to Feltmolten, one to Glesga)
 * Lisney - 2 Lines (one of them to Sofasi)
 * Timber Harbor - 2 Lines (both to Xiandu, one to Feltmolten)
 * Feltmolten - 2 Lines (one of them to Timber Harbor, one to Sofasi)
 * Eastwood - 2 Line (one of them to Rosswood and Plains, one of them to Cornwall)
 * Abington - 1 Line (to Cornwall)
 * Clinton - 1 Line (to Adoha)
 * New Aberdeen - 1 Line (to Nongye and Plains)
 * Nongye - 1 Line (to New Aberdeen and Plains)
 * Rosendorp - 1 Line (to Plains)
 * Rosswood - 1 Line (to Eastwood and Plains)
 * Glesga - 1 Line (to Xiandu)
 * Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:11, November 26, 2013 (UTC)

Voting
Since it is a CTA vote, only CTA councilors.

Pro

 * 2 Votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:12, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 09:25, December 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes Frijoles333 Marcel Cebara TALK 20:49, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 20:51, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

Contra


If it's a vote for a special council (not for the State Council), then why is it on the page of the state council? 77topaz (talk) 01:54, November 28, 2013 (UTC)

Idk no reason to break it up its still apart of the state council. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:01, November 28, 2013 (UTC)

But this special "sub-council" makes me the only councillor who cannot vote. :( 77topaz (talk) 00:01, December 1, 2013 (UTC)

Ugh I realized that and will make sure you get both councilors on for the Healthcare Committee for sure. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:29, December 1, 2013 (UTC)

✅ 100%-0% Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:09, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

004. Constitutional Franchise Change
The current State Constitution states: I am now proposing that we extend the franchise for the next elections to 17 year olds and for referendums to 16 year olds (which will come in a bill after this). Hope to get a debate on this and a vote by Monday. Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:46, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Any citizen of Clymene can use a major vote and a support vote in the district they live. They may not use both votes on themselves.
 * 2) Any citizen of Clymene can use a minor vote, in up to five districts they don't live in.
 * 3) Any citizen of Lovia can use a support vote, in two rural districts of their choice.
 * 1) Any citizen of Clymene, aged seventeen and older by the day of the election, can use a major vote and a support vote in the district they live. They may not use both votes on themselves.
 * 2) Any citizen of Clymene, aged seventeen and older by the day of the election, can use a minor vote, in up to five districts they don't live in.
 * 3) Any citizen of Lovia, aged seventeen and older by the day of the election, can use a support vote, in two rural districts of their choice.

Does the federal law specify an age for citizens? I'm not sure whether it does. 77topaz (talk) 02:22, December 7, 2013 (UTC)

I think we should use this moment to look at the actual voting system in the Clymene as well as the franchise age. Let us measure the current system by democratic mathematic criteria that are used to rate other voting systems. At least then we can identify problems, further I think that people should raise points where they feel there is an issue. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 08:22, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Before I do this, one of the main issues I have with this system is that it allows for people who live in an area to be swamped with votes of people who don't, meaning that the system gives an overwhelming amount of power to people who might have just one more voter, for instance: Topaz lives in the Truth Island district but gets the least amount of votes because the CNP can bring in two other voters and overwhelm him; I and 4Kant live in Plains Urban district but get beaten in votes because UL can bring in all of their voters (plus Topaz) to overwhelm us. This issue is honestly more of an issue for Topaz but he seems to support UL so there's no difference between GP and UL, so I assume he doesn't want to change this however I thought I'd just highlight an issue. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 08:32, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Democratic Mathematic Criteria (using the recent elections as a guide)
 * Majority Criterion - Will a candidate always win who is ranked as the unique favorite by a majority of voters? This criterion comes in two versions:
 * Ranked - majority criterion, in which an option which is merely preferred over the others by a majority must win - yes
 * Rated - majority criterion, in which only an option which is uniquely given a perfect rating by a majority must win - yes
 * Mutual Majority Criterion - will a candidate always win who is among a group of candidates ranked above all others by a majority of voters? - yes
 * Condorcet Criterion - Will a candidate always win who beats every other candidate in pairwise comparisons? - yes
 * Condorcet Loser Criterion - Will a candidate always win who is not the candidate who loses to every other candidate in pairwise comparisons? - no
 * Independence of Smith-dominated Alternatives - Does the outcome never change if a Smith-dominated candidate is added or removed? - no
 * Independence of Irrelevant Alternatives - Does the outcome never change if a non-winning candidate is added or removed? - yes
 * Local Independence of Irrelevant Alternatives - Does the outcome never change if the alternative that would finish last is removed? - no
 * Independence of Clone Alternatives - Does the outcome never change if non-winning candidates similar to an existing candidate are added? There are three different phenomena which could cause a system to fail this criterion:
 * Spoilers are candidates which decrease the chance of any of the similar or clone candidates winning - no
 * Teams are sets of similar candidates whose mere presence helps the chances of any of them winning - yes
 * Crowds are additional candidates who affect the outcome of an election without either helping or harming the chances of their factional group, but instead affecting another group - no
 * Monotonicity Criterion - If candidate W wins for one set of ballots, will W still always win if those ballots change to rank W higher? - yes
 * Consistency Criterion - If candidate W wins for one set of ballots, will W still always win if those ballots change by adding another set of ballots where W also wins? - yes
 * Participation Criterion - Is voting honestly always better than not voting at all? - no
 * Reversal Symmetry - If individual preferences of each voter are inverted, does the original winner never win? - no
 * Polynomial Time - Can the winner be calculated in a runtime that is polynomial in the number of candidates and linear in the number of voters? - yes
 * Resolvable - Can the winner be calculated in almost all cases, without using any random processes such as flipping coins? - yes
 * Summability - Can the winner be calculated by tallying ballots at each polling station separately and simply adding up the individual tallies? - yes
 * Later-no-harm Criterion - Can voters be sure that adding a later preference to a ballot will not harm any candidate already listed? - no
 * Later-no-help Criterion - Can voters be sure that adding a later preference to a ballot will not help any candidate already listed? - no

I'll leave this here for people to mull over for a bit. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 09:18, December 7, 2013 (UTC)

And what conclusion does this bring you to? The Clymene system is no different then any other system. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:37, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Have you not read any of my comments or did you ignore the one were I raised an issue? and the Clymene system is different. Do you not even know how any of the other state election systems work?! Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:28, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Really, cause I just copied the system from Seven, I guess they are doing something wrong too. Only difference is you can vote in every single district if you live in the state. And the King's system is pretty close.
 * The only reason you bring up these philosphoical political questions is why? Seven and Kings are doing nearly the same thing. And your voting system in Sylvania has all these problems sorted out? Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:08, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Firstly: Clymene should not have the same system as seven, they are very different states. Further Seven's system seems to work for seven, but I would want to advise the council there to at least look at its issues. Sylvania will be reviewing its electoral system and its council in the form it is so why is Clymene beyond review?


 * Also on your second point, stop distracting the conversation this is a discussion about Clymene, not Sylvania. If Sylvania's system was or was not perfect then why would that matter to Clymene? or Clymeni Councillors? Stop taking things as a personal attack and stop talking OOC so much, these forums are supposed to be somewhat IC.


 * Again, read what I've written and don't take it as a personal attack. This is an attempt to look at Clymene's political system and see what might need fixing. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:36, December 7, 2013 (UTC)

005. Nelson Mandela Recognition
I express great sorrow that such a giant of freedom, equality and economic justice is dead today. On behalf of everyone in the Clymene State Council, I want the nation of South Africa to know we mourn alongside them that we lost Nelson Mandela today. He is a total one-off, another one like him will never walk this earth again. Nelson Mandela has forever changed this earth and for the better, may he always be remembered. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:39, December 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with you. It is indeed very sad that such a great person isn't there anymore. 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 07:24, December 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we need the Nelson Mandela Clymene State Medal to recognize those Lovians who strive to promote what he set out to do. At least we'd have some connection to his legacy. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:52, December 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes! I was thinking that but i was going to try that time in the Congress and it got rejected. I'll propose it after the vote on franchise and referendums. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:13, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why would Clymene, a state completely unrelated to Nelson Mandela, have such a medal? I love the guy and I'm sorry he is gone but it seems like random thinking without any direction or reason and stinks of trying to gain political recognition off the back of the man, which is something I'm sure he would not like. Besides how will you define the actions that Lovians must take to get this award? because "To promote what he set out to do" is not going to work. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 08:17, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Gotta agree with Kunar though. --O u WTB 10:40, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Me too :P 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 10:55, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * You revoke or adjust your former statement? :o I quote: "I completely agree with you. It is indeed very sad that such a great person isn't there anymore. 4kant,6" --O u WTB 12:28, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, his former statement was only concerning respecting Nelson Mandela. It was Horton afterwards that stated that they should create the medal, which marcus agreed to. So he is not revoking or adjusting it. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 12:38, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hahaha, I see CNP is strengthening its party loyalty :P --O u WTB 12:45, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * As always... :D Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 13:06, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * "but it seems like random thinking without any direction or reason and stinks of trying to gain political recognition off the back of the man, which is something I'm sure he would not like." wow you are really low. Your respect for other people is very concerning, considering you think everything has an alternative motive. How depressing. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:35, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, you seem to fail to understand, you are talking about making a medal about a man who doesn't have anything to do anything with Clymene. You are acting as if you have some right to claim his name for Clymene and slap it on a medal as if you have anything to do with him.


 * This isn't a matter of respect or alternative motives. You are simply being disrespectful and ignorant and now you are trying to play it up as some sort of issue rather than admitting you were wrong to even think it was appropriate in the first place. You need to learn that not every political figure is someone you can claim and throw onto a medal, I swear you tried to do this once before in fact. You are treating Nelson Mandela like a political FAD.


 * Further doing so would suggest that Nelson Mandela, a man who has nothing to do with Clymene, NO MATTER HOW GREAT HE IS, is more important than all the historical figures of Clymene that built this state and made it what it is today. That is even further showing your disrespect for this state.


 * I'd think long and hard before you comment further. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:27, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * No the alternative motive is still there. Why would it be in the least bit wrong to recognizea  great man? EVERY OTHER NATION HAS DONE IT (honarary citizenships, degrees, order of canada) EVEN SMALLER GROUPS AND CITIES. You are one of the dumbest people I think I've ever met considering the fact you don't think of someone doing something as a honor to someone else but that secretly I'm trying to gain political points as the "man who gave Mandela honorary citizenship or some recognition", WHICH WE SHOULD DO.
 * The motive I have is to recognize that fact that he was a liberator of an entire race and country, and no Lovian state has done it, which is entirely rude. I'm not claiming him for Clymene more than Canada, Denmark, Angola is claiming him or America, or I guess Barack Obama claiming that Mandela inspired him was him stealing Mandela away from South Africa. Yeah, you caught the President is his political point scoring act.
 * You disrespect your state by giving false accusations and would demand an apology but it would mean nothing coming from you.
 * And finally again, stop with you "think long and hard before you comment further" as if your the standard of excellence in any matter and that everyone must abide by your odd standards, it's getting really old and its tiring to see you think your opinion is needed everywhere because we can't do without your intellegence. Okay we get it.
 * But of course not, the orginal motive is "to recognize Mandela with some form of recognition" but apparently that is too bad for you. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:59, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Once again commenting before thinking. The issue is not about recognising him we are all agreed about that. You are simply ignorant for not reading, tell me Marcus what is the issue I am raising? if you are able to say.


 * Just to clarify for you, seeming as you are incapable of reading, so now this'll be really easy for you to understand:


 * No one disagrees about Nelson Mandela being recognised
 * No one thinks there is an alternative motive for recognising him
 * The other Lovian states haven't done it because Lovia can be slow to react to things, not out of disrespect so I'd shut up before you make more people hate you for your arrogance


 * What is going on is:


 * I and others are disagreeing with the idea of making a "Nelson Mandela Clymene State Medal" which is both ridiculous and pointless


 * So thank you for proving that reading is beyond your level. I hope you do it in the future as it could save you a lot of effort with all your shouting and insults. Try to be a little more like Horton or even better Frijoles, who frankly is looking like the person who should be leading UL and leading UL in Clymene although he is working his energies in Kings. He not only reads what is written but doesn't scream and shout back.


 * So when I say "think long and hard before you comment further" it is not because I think people should abide by any one persons standards but because you are making a fool of yourself and to be honest I'd rather have a debate than an argument. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 17:30, December 7, 2013 (UTC)

Both of you are looking like fools for this petty argument. My "Nelson Mandela Clymene State Medal" was a bit of a sarcastic thing, cause the name is frankly terrible. We do not need to name a medal after him (we'd need to name one after Gandhi, Dr. King etc.) what we could do is give him an honorary citizenship, posthumously award him the Lovian White Pine (Jack Pine?) Order (or create one like here) and we'd be able to recognize other foreign and Lovian change-makers. HORTON11 : •  17:34, December 7, 2013 (UTC)