Forum:Supranational Wiki Organization

__NEWSECTIONLINK__ li:Forum:Euverlandjswikizamme Alright, let's keep the discussions about a new UWN at a single page to keep the oversight a bit è :P

Name
We need to have a new name, United Wiki Nations, Wikia Union, and International Wiki Organization have all been used before. Any ideas? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:28, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Wikian Community, Council of Wikinations? --Semyon 14:17, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Wikian Community is too vague. Council of Wikinations is possible. However, a council has a more advisory role, instead of a powerful organization that can act if necessary. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:19, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * League of Wikinations, Wikination Coöperation Organisation? --Semyon 14:25, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Wikination Coöperation Organization or Coöperation Organization of Wikinations (COW :P) is another option for me. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:28, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's avoid the latter. :P Also Coöperation Organization of Wikinations sounds strange. --Semyon 14:30, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Organization of International Micronations? World Wikination Forum? HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:31, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Forum doesn't really sound powerful :P OIM is a bit strange because of the "International Micronations". --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:34, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * What about International Organization of Micronations? I tried basing the name off of the OAS. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:38, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking we should definitely use wikination in the name rather than micronation, which means something slightly different. International Organization of Wikinations perhaps? --Semyon 14:45, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds like International Wiki Organization, but the initials are different so.. Why not? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:47, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, my mistake. It should've been wikinations. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:51, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Bart K raised a problem: the translation of IOW to Limburgish would be Tösjewikilandjszamme, while IWO was translated as Tösjelandjswikizaam. A bit too similar perhaps? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:05, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

Simply Supranational Wiki Organization? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:21, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem is that we then seem to be a assocation of wiki and not of nations and what's wrong with using a name of a previous organization? UWN was a good name Pierlot McCrooke 16:26, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * We are going to create a new system. The old name UWN is not clear: do we mean the old UWN or the new one? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:28, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe UWN Association? then we still have UWN, but we can make easy distinction Pierlot McCrooke 16:38, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

Why not reuse International Wiki Organization? I don't think that plan ever really went anywhere, so it would be nice if it actually did. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:25, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Never really thought about it that way :P It's a good possibility yeah. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:50, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Could we perhaps hold a (fictional) conference in a city and then name the organization after that, e.g. Saenteim Coöperation Association, Grijzestad Pact? This is my final idea, otherwise I'm happy with IWO. --Semyon 18:11, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I personally don't have anything against such a name. But IWO seems to be accepted and if we choose a city name we will have yet another discussion ;) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:07, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Members
Alright, Semyon already proposed to group members into two categories: official and associate. To me this sounds like something reasonable. I'll give a list of members: The important factor for the official state is: if there is an active, working government, you can be official. Otherwise, you are an associate member. Are we on the same line? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:28, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, this makes sense. --Semyon 13:12, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

How is it going to work and what are we going to do?
Now, we arrive at the point at which all other organizations failed. What is the purpose of the organization and how are we going to keep it active and prevent it from falling apart? I think the "newbies" who haven't participated in a supranational wiki organization yet, might give us some fresh insights :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:28, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I propose a number of different departments, e.g.
 * Department of Culture (role is to arrange twinnings, run organisations such as HTA)
 * Department for Interwikian Justice (role is to arbitrate any disputes which might arise between the nations, or to judge any criminals who operate internationally.)
 * Department for Trade and Travel (role is to ensure travel between wikinations is staightforward, keep tariffs for interwikian trade low.)
 * Department for Development and Aid (role is to provide loans to member states to allow development of poor regions or after natural disasters.
 * Department for MORE IDEAS HERE.
 * Each full member state would appoint a representative (two/more representatives?) to each department. --Semyon 13:46, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Your idea is okay, but I wouldn't make it more representatives. We have to think about our user base. Most wikis have the same users, f.e. I'll probably have to represent Mäöres because of a shortage of active users.
 * On our Mäöreser forum the following has been said: Collaboration and keeping projects from getting inactive. More translations about the other wikis (which includes active embassies) and making political deals to keep the nations together. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:58, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, departments aren't a fantastic idea. My point was that there's plenty of things for an organisation to do - even if we just limit ourselves to town twinning and cultural exchanges. As long as we define what its role is carefully, there shouldn't be a problem, whereas if we just say 'the UWN is an international organisation' it's bound to fail because people have no direction and no idea what to do. --Semyon 14:06, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed, but solely town twinning is not going to give the organization a very sunny goal. The organization should have enough "power" to keep nations active in case there are significant risks of inactivity or yet another civil war type situation. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:13, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the organization should definitely set out to prevent civil wars and such. Nar.png Echo cho 20:38, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a department of Defense to coordinate military effort within member states, such as UNLOR. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:10, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds logic :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:50, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

nations possible
I think the nations from New continent wiki should not be allowed considering the fact a new continent being found is very very impossible. But what if we invited the more possible micronations from Fantasy Micronation wiki. I can think of a few good nations that would be able to join. Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:22, June 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Those countries don't really fit for our purposes since they don't have their own site. I see it more as a side/alternate project. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:13, June 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * (edc) I think some sort of minimum criterion is certainly needed, e.g. 10 non-stub pages, in order to be considered for associate membership. As Oos said, to be a full member you would have to have an active government. --Semyon 13:15, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Fantasy Micronation is here; New Continent. :Both wikis are rather inactive, but the same could be said for Reptin and Adlibita. The principles of Fantasy are in line with our principles. New Continents is of a different style. A thing I must say though, is that one user can only represent one country. So, if Marcus is going to represent New England, he can't represent Lovia. But, as of now, they` should be associate members, not active ones, so they won't get representation. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:17, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

Host country?
In the past we had four different systems: Well, I'd say either system two or three. System one fails because people are not willing to join yet another wiki; system four fails because you're working on a wiki of which most people don't understand the language. If we'd choose for system three, Lovia will be our eternal host country. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:05, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Creating a new wiki (effectively, this failed and a new Wikination started on the site)
 * 2) All members are host country for a period (f.e. jan-march: Lovia, april-july: Mäöres, july-etc..)
 * 3) One fixed country which is very active (at the time Libertas)
 * 4) One fixed country which is least active (Adlibita).
 * I like system 2, but won't there be problems with discussions stretching across wikis? Would we have to move the forum every few months? If it's plausible system 2 is certainly the best IMO but otherwise it would be simpler to keep everything in Lovia. --Semyon 14:10, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, a combination of moving and not moving is necessary. You should definitely keep the archives at either one nation or at all nations. Rotation of active discussions is not a problem I think. Simply copying the page will suffice. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:15, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * You are probably right. Well, let's do that then. :P --Semyon 14:21, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I like to rotation idea. It would also bring users to the other sites. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:33, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd say either fix to Lovia (since it has the most pages and most activity, and uses English, the one that most crosswiki users always have learned), or do the rotation, though I'm not sure which members. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:12, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we should keep rotation to the official members and leave associate members out of this. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:53, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Languages...
I think we can fix the problems above fairly easily, so let's get to the more sensible stuff. Beginning with: official languages :P I'd say, keep it simple and keep it fair. As we all, with the exception of very few, speak English I propose: When necessary, translations to English are provided. Our working languages will be English and Limburgish. The semi-official language are just because they look nice on the list :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:26, June 13, 2012 (UTC) --Semyon 14:27, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) English (working language)
 * 2) Limburgish (working language)
 * 3) Dutch (semi-official)
 * 4) Unified Mäöres (semi-official)

Perhaps Dutch should be official. It is an official language in Brunant. In a practical sense users like Echocho and Wabba are mainly Dutch speakers and some may be more comfortable expressing ideas in Dutch. HORTON11 : •  14:36, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, the problem is that we should keep it as simple as possible. Translations to Dutch become mandatory the moment it is a working language. Also, as all Dutchies seem to be able to express themselves (albeit for the main part) in English, which is not the case for all Limboes, we should perhaps consider to leave it semi-official. But, if you find somebody willing and able to do the translations; go ahead! :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:49, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Dutch would work. But English is best so everyone gets what we mean. :) The glorious First Consul of Rome 15:04, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you willing to translate official documents to Dutch? In that case, Dutch can be an official working language. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:06, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think Dutch should be a working language, since it's the second most common language across all users, and although Libertas is inactive and Brunant is written in English, it is still a major language in all wikinations we know. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:14, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, we need a translator. I'm willing to translate to Limburgish. Also translating to Dutch is going to be a very heavy task... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:54, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I notice that neither of the two people who want Dutch to be an official language can actually speak Dutch. :P Nothing the matter with that of course, but if no Dutch speaker wants it to be official, there's not much point. They'd also need to translate everything, as Oos points out... --Semyon 18:14, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Character Wiki
In every previous co-operation every wiki was a character wiki (a wiki like this). However Brunant is not. Should we allow that> Pierlot McCrooke 15:11, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Could you explain what you mean with "character wiki"? As far as I know, users are coupled to a person in Brunant as well. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:13, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Character wiki are wiki's are wiki's like this, wiki's were everyone controls a character, runs with it in eletiosn, and found companies with it. Brunant can be considered a border case (dutchism ) since most people there don't follow it Pierlot McCrooke 15:17, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Gert Henneman (president) = Horton, for the others I don't know. If the system on Brunant is really that different, it wouldn't be too difficult to change it. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:19, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Anyway, Mäöres doesn't even have a real democracy, so.. :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:20, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * And anyways characters are not extremely important to this. All you need is to make someone up to fill a role. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:22, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Horton is the only one having a character. Most others follow the encyclopedical style. Damn, where is that blog post from dimitri detailing these various styles? Pierlot McCrooke 15:22, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * @Horton: Well, in an organization like this, you are doing politics :P So, it would be nice if you have someone to "control" a character if you see what I mean. What happens in Brunant indeed is less relevant. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:24, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

Here it is Pierlot McCrooke 15:27, June 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * @ Pierlot- The First lady has her own character, Wabba has 2, I believe but one is primary. Any Ygo has a really old Count-Judge.
 * @ Oos- I meant that one's own character isn't necessary. Just a puppet character which is involved in the relevant field. Perhaps an official representative to the organization. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:29, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes but unlike Wikination the characters are mostly uncontrolled Pierlot McCrooke 15:30, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * @Horton: I know, but the characters also need to discuss, so you need a fixed users controlling the "new" characters in the departments. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:34, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's because I hardly ever log in, Pierlot. When do you do something with your McCrooke character? The glorious First Consul of Rome 15:39, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

Interwiki car: and li:
I requested Wikia to enable interwikis between landj and carrington. They might request a confirmation at Carrington if this is technically possible. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:32, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * The interwiki has been created. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:54, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Supranational pages
I think we allow pages about other nations thingies. But we should have a rule: the country where the subject is located should be another language Pierlot McCrooke 16:22, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't really understand... Perhaps you could give us an impression of your idea in Dutch or explain the details a bit more? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:26, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * You know Dimitri deleted stuff like Libertan Red Wine? Well I suggest no longer things like that. Just because it isn't related to Lovia doesn't mean we shouldn't have it. The wikinations should be like wikipedia in affairs about foreign affairs that are in wiki countrie's where their language isn't spoken Pierlot McCrooke 16:30, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I sort of agree, but also not. Especially as Carrington and Nation both use English it would be useless duplicates. And, why should Lovia need an article about a tiny hamlet with 100 inhabitants in Eastern Mäöres? We need to have everything clearly defined: this we want, this we don't want. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:32, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Carrington things shouldn't be on here, since it is in english. But Maores things may be added, so also folk singers who only are known in Maores may get artices Pierlot McCrooke 16:35, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * We could of course "relaxate" the rules a little bit (like articles about prime ministers, capitals, etc.), but we shouldn't exaggerate it :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:41, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Relaxing rules... you're my type of mod, Oos! The glorious First Consul of Rome 18:54, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I can be strict too though :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 19:36, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Banned people
What should we do with people who are banned in one of the member states (like me). Should we unban them on every site? Pierlot McCrooke 17:02, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hehe. Funny. — Beer.png Christopher Costello (Pikapi • Chat  • What's up ) 17:50, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nice try. You and me are fucked, Pierlot. No more Libertas for us. It's dead anyway. The glorious First Consul of Rome 17:54, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I think that's up to the proposed Department for Interwikian Justice. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:05, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually using that would be great. Libertan case against Pierlot and Magnus, lol. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:35, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hahaha, a shame that Libertas is just going to be an associate member then :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:48, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Need I remind you, Oos, we're ALL war criminals in Libertas? The glorious First Consul of Rome 14:42, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't really participate in the Civil War. I'm only guilty of declaring Nýttfrón indepent :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:47, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's like saying the Americans weren't responsible for the Revolutionairy War, cuz' "they only declared themselves independent". The glorious First Consul of Rome 18:58, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Civil War had nothing to do with Nýttfrón. By the time the nonsense war started, Nýttfrón had already been forcefully reunited with Libertas :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 19:46, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, the good ol' days of Libertas... I started off as a pizzabaker, then became a mafia leader and then a war criminal from dark Africa. What a wiki-career. Oh and I remember the fighting of my football stadium, which was "too big". The glorious First Consul of Rome 19:54, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hahaha, yeah :P I started in a bouwvallige neighborhood in Wikistad and ended up governing all of Eastern Libertas :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 20:00, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Declaration
Okay, I wrote a draft Declaration for the establishment of the organization. I wasn't sure quite how to do it, so I settled for the style of a UN Security Council resolution, which might seem slightly absurd. :P I can change that quite easily though. --Semyon 14:01, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

We the undersigned:

Noting the historical, cultural and political links shared by wikinations across the globe,

Noting further the ideals of democracy, human dignity, and the commitment to the rule of law shared and respected by all wikinations,

Recalling the great importance attached to the maintenance of good relations between wikinations,

Commending past initiatives to found organizations which promote these links,

Acting within the limits of the laws of our respective nations,

Declare, on this day the 14th of June 2012, the establishment of the International Wiki Organisation.

We further:

Recognize that nations are not equally willing to take part in international politics,

Call therefore for a distinction between full members, (Lovia, Mäöres, and Brunant) and associate members, (Libertas, Adlibita, Reptin...)

Decide that full members only shall have representation in official IWO bodies, and only they shall be obliged to implement IWO directives,

Lay in place a mechanism for other full members to be added to the Organization,

Such that a majority of Council members, including at least one from each state, approves the entry of the candidate nation to the Organization.

Furthermore we affirm the commitment of the Organisation to democracy,

Decide therefore that all officials of the Organisation shall be either democratically elected, or appointed by a democratic government,

Decide further that each full member state shall be represented by the same number of delegates,

Establish the Council of the Organisation, consisting of two delegates from every full member state,

Further establish the post of Secretary-General, to be elected from among and by the members of the Council, to act as head of the Organization.

We further:

Recognising the many mutual interests of the member nations,

Determined to ensure transparency and efficiency in all workings of the Organisation,

Establish this day seven Departments, each subordinate to the Council,

Respectively responsible for the areas of Culture, Justice, Trade and Travel, Establishment of Embassies, Translation, Development and Aid, and Defence,

Each governed by Secretaries appointed from each full member state,

And promise to honour subsequent declarations passed by these departments.

We further:

Recognize English and Limburgish as working and official languages of the Organization, and that any member of a Department or the Council may use either in the course of their duties, and may request a translation of a statement made by another member into either languages.

Recognize also the historical importance and significance of Dutch and Unified Mäöres to the wikinations worldwide,

Decide that in each year institutions shall be hosted for equal periods by every member state, rotating between them in alphabetical order.

Signed:

Prime Minister of Lovia

Minister of Foreign Affairs for Lovia

etc. etc.

Comments
Sadly couldn't fit it all into one sentence. :( --Semyon 14:08, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks great :P Seems like Mäöres has some problems concerning democracy though but that can be solved I guess :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:12, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * It doesn't really matter. :P Almost every country in the world has signed the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, but quite a few don't 'respect the civil and political rights of individuals, including the right to life, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, electoral rights and rights to due process and a fair trial.' --Semyon 14:18, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well yeah, but still it's a bit awkward how the system of Mäöres works compared to the other Wikinations :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:22, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure Brunant doesn't have democracy in the sense of 'users elect parliament.' --Semyon 17:24, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought Brunant had an "everybody is welcome to join" policy. Mäöres on the other has a "parliament elects MP's" system :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:31, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, dear users, please tell us whether this declaration is good, 'cause if it is, I can translate it to Limburgish and ask the opinion of Mäöreser politicians. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:53, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * This declaration can count on my full support. The glorious First Consul of Rome 18:57, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Supreme Leader
So what if we had, like, a Supreme Leader? That would make things a lot easier now wouldn't it? And if anyone should do it, pretty sure we cal all agree it has to be me. So what y'all think? Good idea or what? The glorious First Consul of Rome 18:55, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Bad idea :P We have a nice uneven number of three official members. No need for a leader I'd say.. :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 19:51, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * There always has to be a leader... this town is too small for all of us, gringo. The glorious First Consul of Rome 19:55, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Somehow, I feel you're not the most suitable candidate :P Though, if you want to I might give you an important function in Mäöres to ease the pain :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 20:01, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * That would make up for things! ;) The glorious First Consul of Rome 20:13, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sure we've got a vacant mayor seat somewhere :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 20:19, June 16, 2012 (UTC)