Forum:Second Chamber

__NEWSECTIONLINK__ In Lovia, Congress is the national legislative body and the most powerful branch of government. The Second Chamber is one of the two chambers of Congress, located in the Capitol in Downtown Noble City, in which the Members of the Congress vote bills that originated in the First Chamber. Paradoxically, Lovia does not have a bicameral parliament: there is only one group of MOTCs that both debates and votes the proposals. For the current composition of Congress, see 2013 Congress.

Whereas all national citizens may propose bills in the First Chamber, only Members of the Congress may vote them in the Second Chamber. Article 6 of the Constitution states that "all Members of the Congress are expected to vote on the motion in the Second Chamber". They have three legal voting options: "pro (in favor of the motion), contra (in opposition to the motion) and abstention (the wish not to vote)." Further more, they "have two weeks’ time to cast their vote in the Second Chamber. Voting may be closed earlier if the required majority is reached. The proposer may also choose to lengthen the voting period."

A normal majority ("fifty percent of the valid votes") is required to pass a motion amending the Federal Law. To vote on Constitutional amendments, a special majority ("more than two thirds of the valid votes") is required to pass a amendment. The special majority requirement was lowered from three quarters to two thirds in the 2010 State Reform (Sixth Amendment). All proposals approved by Congress, by the required majority and in due time, must be implemented by the government of Lovia.

001. Government
I propose the following Government, Government Oos Wes Ilava II:
 * Prime Minister
 * Oos Wes Ilava
 * Ministry of Food, Agriculture, and Fisheries
 * Charles Alexander Bennett
 * Ministry of Commerce
 * Dave Leskromento
 * Ministry of Culture
 * Oos Wes Ilava
 * Ministry of Defense
 * Lukas Hoffmann
 * Ministry of Education and Research
 * William Krosby
 * Ministry of Energy and Resources
 * Charles Alexander Bennett
 * Ministry of Environment
 * Nicholas Sheraldin
 * Ministry of Family, Youth, and Elderly
 * Oos Wes Ilava
 * Ministry of Finance
 * William Krosby
 * Ministry of Foreign Affairs
 * Justin Abrahams
 * Ministry of Health
 * Taiyō no Eisei
 * Ministry of Justice
 * Dave Leskromento
 * Ministry of Labour
 * Marcus Villanova
 * Ministry of Tourism and Sport
 * Nicholas Sheraldin
 * Ministry of Transportation
 * Jhon Lewis
 * Speaker of the Congress
 * Semyon Breyev

Pro

 * 13 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:54, February 7, 2013 (UTC) (CCPL - OSB)
 * 4 votes. 77topaz (talk) 08:31, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes. But we should have the people with two posts use another character for their second post. I'll probably keep Galahad on Finance like last year. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:01, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes. fantastic stuff, here's to a new year of success Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 12:22, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. Wabba The I (talk) 17:22, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes. Fantastic. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 17:56, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes. OK, I'll support this. --Semyon 18:53, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6 votes (Read comments made by Hoffmann, totally correct. The users, and while I'm against QZ as health minister (i'm proud hes active), are inactive and wouldn't be able to fufill there jobs) Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:49, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes. Daembrales (talk) 23:00, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes. -Sunkist- (talk) 00:08, February 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 9 votes  Happy65   Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 07:12, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Contra

 * - Oh, I see how it is. - 5 votes — Christopher Costello (Pikapi • Chat  • What's up ) 21:29, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 1 vote. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:54, February 7, 2013 (UTC) (RTP)
 * 5 votes. Horton is right. --Semyon 19:01, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes .Granero (talk) 01:06, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

✅ The Ilava II Government is now in power. :D —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:22, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
Users like Granero and Daembrales have all shown interest in having a ministry position, so we should include them. HORTON11 : •  13:27, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * To a degree I do agree however I think that the lack of year round activity and lack of a well developed position known to the citizens of the wikia makes it hard for us to confidently include them. I think a good idea would be to have a reshuffle of the government in maybe 3, 4 or 6 months and review the positions that they have shown interest in and see if they: a) are active enough to assume positions and b) have shown attempts to develop that area of interest in lovia. Personally I think a review in three months would be good and would hardly be unfair. We address concerns and ensure that if they are properly addressed they get the positions they deserve. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 14:33, February 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * When starts it? Wabba The I (talk) 17:22, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then again it might be better to include more users than having a select few with two or more (Oos being the exception). And going on the year round activity, Granero and Pikapi have been as active as Sunkist, yet they have none and he has two. I would like to see further inclusion now, and in a few monts when we do the review we can reshuffle the ministries of less active users. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 18:31, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * The few who have two are normally the ones who were unchallenged in the positions they chose or whose positions were only challenged by other people with multiple positions. It is impossible to include users in positions that they want when that position they want is occupied by a person with that position only. This is the problem you do not seem to see. On the matter of Sunkist, Sunkist has been a lot more active than Granero and Pikapi (who didn't even show interest in a position) recently (over the past three months) and you fail to also consider he was almost completely unchallenged for those positions. This is inclusion as far as we can get it with the people who want these positions. Too many people want the same positions, we can't please everyone so we've chosen the people we think are best. I'd hope you'd agree rather than bring up points that have been repeatedly addressed. I'm glad you're on board for the review though, I think that if we have tri-monthly reviews we can keep government active and reward users with commitment and interest, it's good to have you on board for that. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 19:20, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * We could just give Daembrales and Granero one of the relatively unchallenged positions. Though I would still like to review the Health position  (nah, his Bismarck ideas are a step in the right direction, so it's fine)  HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 19:30, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * We don't want to give them a position they don't want and ask them to be responsible for it, that's unfair on both them and the people who take and interest too. Glad you've come around, the Bismarck model is a model for universal healthcare, he's on our side with this, truly. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:48, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

I'm okay with not having a post. =) I think that there are better candidates than me, as i am not too active and not too experienced either. However, i would appreciate a ministry if someone thinks i am fit for the job. :D Daembrales (talk) 23:00, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

@Daembrales - Remember you have multiple congresspersons, (2 i think) vote with them Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:10, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

@Pikapi - You didn't sign up for any ministries. Even if you are active, a major party head, and former Minister of Commerce, you didn't sign up for anything :/ @Horton - A lot of Americans don't support universal healthcare at all. I just don't want taxes funding things like gender switches and what not. For legitimate medical treatment it makes sense to pay for people, but when it's something like that, I don't see a need for others to pay for it. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 23:47, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Sunkist seems to prefer simply the name "Ministry of Agriculture". Should we continue using that name or use the new longer name, or perhaps a compromise between the two as simply "Food and Agriculture"? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:21, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Should or shouldn't separate people be used for separate ministries (e.g. Nicholas Sheraldin for Minister of Environment, Levi Straszev for Minister of Tourism and Sport)? 77topaz (talk) 02:58, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but you get to decide. You could even use one of George's or Viva's users. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:22, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Okay. Should a page Ilava II Government be created, and the ministers be listed there? 77topaz (talk) 03:41, February 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Eventually :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:10, February 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why not yet? :P 77topaz (talk) 07:18, February 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * @ Quarantine Zone- Are boob jobs and sex changes medical necessities? No, so we should not include those in any law. You are right in that I'd like to fund our healthcare through taxes, but we need limits. Cosmetic changes for vanity purposes should not be covered. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:05, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

SCJ
This is where the supreme court judges shall be elected.

Kevin Madison (Happy65)

 * 9 votes  Happy65   Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 11:05, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 11:46, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1 vote Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:21, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes Wabba isn't going to win, and I'm voting for you over Ismagiloff --Quarantine Zone (talk) 03:06, February 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:59, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

Ygo August Donia (TMV)

 * 7 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:14, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Arthur Ismagiloff (Semyon)

 * 2 votes Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 11:46, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:21, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I would vote Pro, but in character, I don't think this guy has enough experience. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:41, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes -Sunkist- (talk) 05:26, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:14, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Victor Veldhoven (GP)

 * 2 votes —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:41, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1 vote Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:21, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes 77topaz (talk) 19:07, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:59, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

Owen Stanton (Wabba The I)

 * 4 votes Wabba The I (talk) 17:34, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes. Nathan of Fleffenstool (talk) 23:55, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Samantha Brown (TimeMaster)

 * 2 votes Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 11:46, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6 votes —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:41, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1 vote Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:21, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes Daembrales (talk) 03:25, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Wabba The I (talk) 11:19, February 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:59, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

'''AS IT IS NOW THE 1ST OF MARCH, THE SCJ VOTING IS CLOSED. THE NEW SUPREME JUDGES ARE KEVIN MADISON (20 VOTES), ARTHUR ISMAGILOFF (17 VOTES) AND SAMANTHA BROWN (17 VOTES)'''

'''Ministry of Justice. '''

004. Marriage Act: 2013 Rewrite
As a concerned Lovian, I propose to change our Marriage Act in subtle ways to make it more open-minded. Lovians - progressives and conservatives alike - are open-minded people, who care deeply about liberty, but also equality, justice, and harmonious living. I found that the Marriage Act was well-written, but did not account for a few things, and had a few very old-fashioned and liberty-restricting elements.

The rewrite I propose is not a radical overhaul. My own politics are those of radical overhaul, but with this proposal, I just want to bring minor, beneficial change to Lovia. I hope it shows I am serious about politics, and that I care about coalitions, alliances, and goodwill in politics.

The original text can be found in the Federal Law.

Proposed version Marriage Act

 * 1) Marriage is an understanding between two adult people, referred to as parties, who voluntarily agree to take up certain rights and duties.
 * 2) The spouses have the duty to live in harmony with each other, offering each other respect, affection, consolation, and care and treating each other in fairness.
 * 3) The spouses have the duty to communicate with each other and make informal agreements concerning both the personal and professional including work, the household, sex, parenting, and finances, and to verbally resolve any conflicts. Considering the possibility that the spouses cannot come to an agreement on their own terms, it is the duty of both spouses to counsel for advice from a third party.
 * 4) The spouses have the right to retain their autonomy within their marriage including the right to choose and perform the profession of their liking, the right to keep personal finances, and the right to individually see and meet people.
 * 5) The spouses share the responsibility to take care of their children or others in their custody as well as of their possessions and properties.
 * 6) Both spouses share the liability to all expenses made for the benefit of the spouses’ child or children, which can be proven to be essential to the well being of the child.
 * 7) While the spouses have the right to make any informal or formal arrangement as to whom pays what, the law can enforce the shared liability of expenses of the above-described type in the case that conflict arises and the existing arrangement is fundamentally unfair to either or both spouses.
 * 8) Each spouse must bear the marital burdens in accordance to his or her capital and provide the partner with vitals.
 * 9) Marriage can only be solemnized if all of the following conditions are met:
 * 10) Each of the parties is at least 18 years old, or 16 given that the parents or custodians of the less than 18-year-old party fully consent with the marriage;
 * 11) Each of the parties agrees with the marriage on a voluntary basis;
 * 12) None of the parties is already in a standing marriage under Lovian law or under similar law in the country where the marriage was carried out;
 * 13) The parties are not genetically related in the first or second degree ruling out marriages between parents and children, brothers and/or sisters, aunts and/or uncles, and nephews and/or nieces, and cousins.
 * 14) The solemnization of a marriage is carried out in public before a representative of the law.
 * 15) A representative of the law is the Governor of the State in which the marriage is solemnized, a person appointed by that Governor, or any person who is in public service in the federal or state government.
 * 16) No representative of the law may refuse to solemnize a marriage if all the legal conditions are met, unless he or she conscientiously objects to the solemnization, in which case he or she shall report his objections to a Deputy Governor or another representative of the law who must then contact the parties to arrange for solemnization to take place under his or her supervision. The government is legally bound to solemnize any marriage that conforms to the demands set forth by the law.
 * 17) The parties sign a marriage contract at the public solemnization agreeing to the conditions laid out by the law. The representative of the law acts as a witness and validates the contract by signing it as well.
 * 18) A marriage is considered terminated in each one of the following cases:
 * 19) If the marriage is proven to not have been legally solemnized;
 * 20) If one of the spouses obtains a cancellation of the marriage contract;
 * 21) A spouse can cancel a marriage through a lawsuit if he or she proves that the other spouse has neglected his or her duties as a spouse;
 * 22) In this case, the neglecting spouse can be sanctioned to provide financial support to the neglected spouse.
 * 23) In this case, the judge must decide upon an arrangement concerning raising the spouses’ child or children, taking into account the opinions and wishes of both spouses as well as of the children concerned.
 * 24) Unless one of the spouses is considered an immediate threat to the health and security of a child, every person has the right to have regular contact and communication with his or her child.
 * 25) Every arrangement decided upon by a judge must take into account the health, security, and happiness of the child and the spouses’ ability to provide for those.
 * 26) If both spouses agree upon the termination of their marriage, effectively cancelling the marriage contract in the presence of a representative of the law.
 * 27) Upon the death of one of the spouses, or both, but only if the remaining spouse requests the cancellation.
 * 28) One year after one of the spouses has been reported as missing and has not been found, but only if the remaining spouse requests the cancellation.

Proposed changes
In the proposed version, some of the terminology has been changed, either to increase uniformity and clarity, or to reflect a more open-minded spirit. No mention is made of homosexuality, though: our law already allows for same-sex marriage.

The duties and rights of married people change, so that they are no longer obliged to actually live together (it is possible to be married harmoniously and live in separate places) and are no longer legally obliged to be sexually faithful to each other. Instead, extra emphasis is put on the emotional duties of married couples. Also expanded is the section on how to resolve marriage conflicts, including those with children.

The age at which marriage can be solemnized is lowered to 16, given the parents' consent.

The solemnization is simplified. A couple in want of a marriage only needs a representative of the law, more broadly defined now: the governor, someone appointed by him/her, or anyone else representing Lovian government. The "announcement" period is no longer needed.

The law explicitly states that "No representative of the law may refuse to solemnize a marriage if all the legal conditions are met". At the urging of Ooswesthoesbes, a provision is included to allow for conscientious objection by the representative of the law. A simple but efficient procedure is included to arrange for such cases.

Termination of the marriage contract by a single party, through a lawsuit, is rewritten. Provisions are included on what the judge can decide, financially and in the matter of children. The stress is on making harmonious arrangements and looking after the child's interests. A divorce should not be a war, and the child should never be its victim.

Thank you for your consideration. Punarbhava (talk) 17:43, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

Pro

 * 13 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:14, March 5, 2013 (UTC) (CCPL - OSB)
 * 2 votes Wabba The I (talk) 17:33, March 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6 votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:21, March 5, 2013 (UTC) (a bill written by a progressive, supported mostly by a christian conservative. Seems like Pun has found some good fame in Lovia :D great job!!! Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:21, March 5, 2013 (UTC))
 * 8 votes —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:56, March 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes - It's not that I particularly like the law, but it's a lot better than the old one, so I'm voting pro.--Quarantine Zone (talk) 22:58, March 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes 77topaz (talk) 02:37, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes. Bart K (talk) 08:31, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes - The first bill of the new government, let's keep on moving! - Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 08:52, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 Votes -Sunkist- (talk) 02:40, March 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes Daembrales (talk) 18:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Contra

 * 1 vote. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:14, March 5, 2013 (UTC) (RTP)
 * 2 votes Wabba The I (talk) 17:33, March 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:41, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Abstention

 * (4 votes) HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:56, March 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1 votes. Bart K (talk) 08:31, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

✅ With a 51% majority. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:47, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Comments

 * Thank you, Lovians! Punarbhava (talk) 09:50, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

007. Voting Rights
This since we're adding to the Constitution must have at least 75% 66% a tall, tall order. But I think we have enough general approval for this no? Within it we secure the right to vote for those 18 or Older, and with approval of governors (extending state's rights and devolution) to 16 in statewide elections. We also protect minorities in their right to vote and the right to exercise that right without interference.
 * 1) Any Lovian citizen aged 18 or older may exercise their right to vote in an election.
 * 2) The citizen must file registration for voting with the State Government to be allowed to vote.
 * 3) Registration must be filed at least two weeks before an election is held.
 * 4) A state may set the voting age limit for statewide elections to either the age of 16, 17, or 18, according to the preference of the state.
 * 5) No citizen may be barred from voting on grounds of their gender, sexual orientation, race, personal beliefs, or religious background.
 * 6) Infringement of voting rights is a felony, punishable by a minimum of a 10,000 dollar fine.
 * 7) The Supreme Court may prescribe a greater punishment depending on the severity of the crime.
 * 8) The voting rights of citizens can be removed if they are deemed unfit by way of a Supreme Court order.
 * 9) Electioneering is allowed, but only 30 meters or more away from the location where a voter casts a ballot.
 * 10) Breaking this law once leads to a 1000 dollar fine. Breaking it more than once leads to a minimum prison sentence of three days and a 3000 dollar fine.
 * 11) The Supreme Court may prescribe a greater punishment depending on the severity of the crime.

Pro

 * 6 votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:14, March 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes on the condition that it is in Article 2. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:46, March 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 13 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:05, March 16, 2013 (UTC) (CCPL - OSB): I'd prefer Article 5, but I'm not too bothered about it either.
 * 5 votes. Seems ok. :) --Semyon 18:08, March 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 18:22, March 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Wabba The I (talk) 18:55, March 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Is there anything changed? Wabba The I (talk) 18:55, March 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes 77topaz (talk) 19:49, March 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes, and I really don't care what Article it's added to. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 17:57, March 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 9 votes.  Happy65   Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 19:32, March 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes - hey hey hey! I think this is passed :D Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:40, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Contra

 * 1 vote. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:05, March 16, 2013 (UTC) RTP: Women should be excluded from voting rights.
 * 5 votes. "The voting rights of citizens can be removed if they are deemed unfit by way of a Supreme Court order." And states should be able to set voting age at any rage, it be under 18 or over 18. -Sunkist- (talk) 21:25, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 8 votes My condition was not followed, so I will support the later proposed repeal. The proposal was never passed since I only voted Pro on my condition. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:13, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes - not sure what is going on here so ill follow tm Daembrales (talk) 18:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Withdrawn. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:47, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
(Correction: only 66% for an amendment, not 75%) --Semyon 18:08, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't this go in section 5 though due to its realtion to election matters? The article doesn't matter much to me though Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:22, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

66% thanks semyon for the corrections, also glad to see the voice of far-right conservatism always in play :P (so far 32 votes in favor!) Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:16, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Your voting contra over personal reasons, sunkist. Dissapointing. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:32, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

What, I just said why I'm voting against it, I'm against the Supreme Court taking peoples voting rights away and the states inability to set the age limit where they want too. How can you just accuse me like this, what the hell? -Sunkist- (talk) 21:42, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I know the supreme court ccan but remember, you'd have to file the case. But it before the court, get it agreed to, then afterwards if there is public dissaproval its accpeted. If there is then obviously Lovia, Democracy, and the Judiciary branch must be corrupt. I think that's aimed at very horrible ciminals or domestic terrorists (civil war) so that if they do go to jail, (in our case) prisoners having the right to vote, you don't. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:46, March 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * Then sepecify it and also allow states to raise or lower the age limit as they please, don't make them have a cap limit. -Sunkist- (talk) 22:08, March 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * It would make little sense for people to be able to vote in the federal elections but not their state's elections. :P 77topaz (talk) 22:13, March 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * I thank topaz for that totally valid point. On the issue of the courts, you can chage it after this passes to a more progressive liking if you want, i'll support it. The general support is for the universal (almost) age of 18. So we kept that federally. But there is some who want 17 and 16, so im devolving that power to the states just for statewide elections. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:18, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Slight problem
For this law to go in effect, we would have to bring back the State Laws. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:47, March 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Should we change it to governor, then? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 11:53, March 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, such a thing should be in a law. So, it requires state law :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:01, March 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Oos - You've seen through my master plan of proposing a law which would eventually rile up state's rights advocates like you into starting a fight for devolution. LOL no but i'm 1000% behind state law, let's get on it!!! Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:58, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Libertas becoming a full member of the IWO
Libertas will officialy become a member of the International Wikination Organisation. Wabba The I (talk) 18:08, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

Pro

 * 4 votes - Wabba The I (talk) 18:10, March 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 19:11, March 21, 2013 (UTC) (CCPL - OSB - RTP)
 * 6 votes (first wikination) Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:48, March 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:24, March 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * --Quarantine Zone (talk) 01:12, March 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:13, March 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes -Sunkist- (talk) 16:37, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes --Semyon 20:28, April 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes Daembrales (talk) 18:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 4 votes 77topaz (talk) 02:50, March 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:18, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
✅ By a 51% majority at minimum (QZ did not specify # of votes). —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:12, April 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't feel I can vote on this until I have a link to the wikination in question. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 20:47, April 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Come on, you've never heard of Libertas? HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 20:48, April 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * (edc) Here you go. I'm surprised you weren't familiar with it already tbh. --Semyon 20:51, April 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * It would seem my vote was not needed anyways. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 06:27, April 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks everyone! Wabba The I (talk) 11:13, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

009. Repeal of Twelfth Amendment
I request that the Twelfth Amendment be repealed, and be replaced with the text below. Wikipedia defines a constitution as 'a set of fundamental principles or established precedents according to which a state or other organization is governed.' While parts of the Amendment fit this definition, such as minimum age requirements, or anti-discrimination clauses, because they are 'fundamental principles' which Lovia is governed by, others don't. For example, it's not within the remit of a constitution to decide that electioneering as acceptable 30.1 meters away from a ballot station, but not 29.9 meters away. I think this was why there was so much uncertainty about which article to put the law into - it's because actually it shouldn't be in any of them.

An extra part of Article 2 of the constitution (in bold):


 * 1) Every human being and citizen has the right:
 * 2) Of freedom of thought, meaning and religion.
 * 3) Of equality, by race, religion, political opinion, language, sex, property, birth or other statuses.
 * 4) Of privacy.
 * 5) To have personal or common property.
 * 6) To be arrested in a trial and to be treated correctly.
 * 7) To have a residence.
 * 8) To work and to receive education.
 * 9) To relax and recreate.
 * 10) To live in peace with his or her fellow-men.
 * 11) To live in welfare.
 * 12) To become a Lovian citizen.
 * 13) Every Lovian citizen has the right:
 * 14) To have a number of residences in Lovia, but no more than three.
 * 15) Every Lovian citizen above the minimum age requirement has the right:
 * 16) To vote in federal and state elections.
 * 17) The minimum age requirement is set at:
 * 18) Eighteen years, for the federal elections.
 * 19) Either sixteen, seventeen or eighteen years, for the state elections, at the discretion of the government of the respective state.
 * 20) No citizen may be barred from voting on grounds of their gender, sexual orientation, race, personal beliefs, or religious background.

An new federal law, to be entitled the Elections Regulation Act:


 * 1) Any citizen wishing to exercise their constitutional right to vote must file registration for voting with the State Government.
 * 2) Registration must be filed at least two weeks before an election is held.
 * 3) Proven violation of Article 2.3.1.2. of the Constitution is a felony, punishable by a minimum of a 10,000 dollar fine.
 * 4) The Supreme Court may prescribe a greater punishment depending on the severity of the crime.
 * 5) The voting rights of citizens can be removed by way of a Supreme Court order if they are deemed unfit to exercise those rights.
 * 6) Electioneering is allowed, but only 30 meters or more away from the location where a voter casts a ballot.
 * 7) Breaking this law once leads to a 1000 dollar fine. Breaking it more than once leads to a minimum prison sentence of three days and a 3000 dollar fine.
 * 8) The Supreme Court may prescribe a greater punishment depending on the severity of the crime.

Pro

 * 5 votes. --Semyon 17:03, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes -- Repeal is not necessary, however, since I voted pro on a condition, and my condition was not followed, and thus the necessary support was not reached. This should be treated as the revised Twelfth Amendment, the original of which never passed. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:15, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * The same argument did occur to me, but I wondered if it was somewhat specious. :P --Semyon 20:42, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6 votes (good compromise) Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:08, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Glad you think so. :) --Semyon 21:11, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. The other clauses should be added to the Federal Law separately. 77topaz (talk) 02:37, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes - Sounds good on paper. So I'm incline to believe it will work well in act. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:53, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:51, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 12:40, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Wabba The I (talk) 13:45, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes again well for such a reform - Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:38, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes Daembrales (talk) 18:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes. Isn't most of this in Article 8 of the constitution? --Quarantine Zone (talk) 22:12, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. Bart K (talk) 12:36, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Contra

 * 5 votes, I still believe that states should be able to place age limits on their elections at any age they want, or keep it at 18. ---Sunkist- (talk) 08:36, April 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand that, but I don't think that age limits should ever go below 16. I think that allowing states to set their own limits is remarkably devolutionist in itself. :) --Semyon 21:45, April 20, 2013 (UTC)

Abstain


Well, the ERA is now passed, but the Constitution part isn't. :/ I'll add ERA. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:47, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

✅ By a 68% majority. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:45, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

010. One millionth State Reform
Okay, I think it's good enough. We need a special majority: State Law and State Council. As there does not seem to be enough support for State Courts, I propose to keep it in the freezer and maybe vote seperately on that later on.

Pro

 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:19, April 6, 2013 (UTC) (CCPL - OSB - RTP)
 * 6 Votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 11:30, April 6, 2013 (UTC) (about damn time)
 * (5 votes :P) --Semyon 13:27, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 01:17, April 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Wabba The I (talk) 18:37, April 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes. Why not? -Sunkist- (talk) 08:34, April 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 11:20, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Bart K (talk) 09:09, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 8 votes - Elections for the state council are too complex. I think it's too much. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:35, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes. Same as Time here. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:01, April 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes Daembrales (talk) 18:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Expired. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:47, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
Couldn't this be a 12th state reform :D Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:55, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, it's the twelfth amendment if accepted, but not the twelfth state reform :P I think it's the fourth :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:57, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * True my mistake :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:06, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's the third real state reform if we don't count the one when Dimitri wanted to stress Lovia as a federal state :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:09, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * How many votes pro semyon! XD lol Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:32, April 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * I understand 3.4.2 good but what is it now? Oceana has what age and Kings has what age and ... ? Wabba The I (talk) 18:37, April 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? About, voting age? It varies about state elections is all not that major. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:32, April 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Wabba: the voting age will be set in the State Law. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 03:12, April 9, 2013 (UTC)

Let me stress the direct need of State Laws, or the law above this one will be illegal (no state laws, no setting of voting age per state). So I urge all the people blocking this to bring forth better ideas or change their vote to. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:20, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * And anyway, actually, apart from states with more than three candidates running, nothing changes. There is nothing that's more complex... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:32, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is prohibited to set a state voting age. State Laws might be illegal, but this is just a decree. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 11:25, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * A voting age should be placed in a legal document. Currently, states - read the constitution - do not have the right to create legal documents. And as I said, practically, nothing changes, apart from the new State Laws and the fact that a user will represent f.e. 15 people instead of 1... --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:37, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't even think It will be that much though, this law is designed to say, If your interest and want to mae changes to your state you should have the choice not just one man with near dictorial authority only bound to by the federal law. I think even after this, a clause to say you can run and be able to  participate in two states whould be better because if you have the interest to change your state you should be able to. This way, even while a good half of users are semi inactive we will have at least two to four users trying to vote and change states. Obviously I think users like Semyon and Oos, in there respecctive states, will hold near majorities in there states because of there interest and now the use of the '3-2-1' voting system in state elections. For myself? I would love to rune in Clymene and Sylvania, I love both of these states, hell I would even love to do it in all give, but I understand that that isnt practical but what would be better is two so people can have invested interest in the state they do love. And plus theres an inactivity part within this bill, s o if soo many new users get elected, and fail to participate, new elections are held, and i'm guess the actives user's share of the vote will be greatly increased. Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:13, April 20, 2013 (UTC)

On second thought, your entire argument is invalid, as most states have already implemented state councils... The only thing that'll change is that they get State Laws (so some real legislation). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:01, April 21, 2013 (UTC)

My argument? Anyway I think this vote has failed. so if thats the case It's just one step closer to the LP abstaining from congress, its getting old. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:55, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, TM's argument that it would make everything more difficult. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 03:21, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

011. Repeal Green Energy Act
It's silly. --Semyon 16:17, April 20, 2013 (UTC)

Pro

 * 5 votes. --Semyon 16:17, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes. -Sunkist- (talk) 16:18, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 16:19, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6 votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:57, April 20, 2013 (UTC) (I prolly even voted for this, but it's empty language and not even enforced)

Abstain

 * 4 votes (The "premise" of the act is good, but it seems to have been ignored) 77topaz (talk) 21:02, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * We who started this, (Sunkist, Semyon and me) want to repeal this and replace it with a new Green Energy act that is properly written and can actually help us progress as a nation towards green energy. A pro would help us to get this moving. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:27, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I say get the act written first. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:00, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with TM. First write a new one, cuz then we'd only need one change in the law instead of two. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:57, April 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * 4 votes - On the grounds that I'd much rather see what the other party has to offer before I make any decisions on the matter. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:36, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes Daembrales (talk) 18:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Expired. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:47, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

012. Approval of the Headlands Cross State Line
The construction of the "Headlands Cross State Line" will take place.
 * Costs - $70,500,000
 * Labour - 1 average worker @ ~$60,000 - ~500 workers - $30,000,000
 * Resources - 1km of rail @ ~$500,000 - ~81km of rail - $40,500,000

Pro

 * 6 votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:24, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes Surprised it took so long to get here. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 14:35, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:15, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. 77topaz (talk) 23:53, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 -Sunkist- (talk) 01:54, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 04:08, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Wabba The I (talk) 08:28, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes Daembrales (talk) 18:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:04, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:42, May 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Bart K (talk) 09:09, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 14:33, May 18, 2013 (UTC) I keep to my point that I'll only approve this if a railway between East Hills and Hurb is constructed as well.


 * Can that not be done in another vote? Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 14:35, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not separately :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:09, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * @oos - if the people who support this in princple of railroad contrustion and jobs they'd prolly support it too so vote pro! Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:13, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Where are stations or stops? Wabba The I (talk) 16:18, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * (clarified) Agree with Wabba, and also, is this the same thing that we had discussed in chat a couple months ago to extend one line and make the unextended part a double line? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:46, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * @wabba? Are you serious? Usually it'll be decided by the train company that wants to use it and will be done along the way. the last one that was agreed too, in which YOU were apart of. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:36, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * @wabba? Are you serious? Usually it'll be decided by the train company that wants to use it and will be done along the way. the last one that was agreed too, in which YOU were apart of. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:36, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * @Wabba - Stops are in Charleston, Train Village and Noble City. @Time - yes that exact one. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 19:46, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * We already have the Peace Island Railway and the Trans Sylvanian Railway which both stops in Clave Rock so why a new one? But you are rights. Charleston needs a station too. But I think it is better to smelt them into one (Trans Sylvanian and this proposal) with stops in Noble City, Train Village, Charleston and Clave Rock? But you are the Governor and Deputy Governor. Wabba The I (talk) 20:18, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thing is Wabba, Noble City, Train Village and Clave Rock are all connected to the railway system. Clave Rock, which has less population than Charleston, is connected and Charleston isn't. This plan would connect it and because of the increased traffic that would be faced (transportation of both people and cargo) it also expands the tracks to Noble City, this increase in capacity will bolster our economy. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 21:10, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * I think 400 workers is good enough for both (not together). Wabba The I (talk) 14:44, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

✅ With a 62% majority. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:08, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

013. Approval of the Emerald Railway
Renovation of the Emerald Railway.
 * Costs - $100,000,000
 * Stops: Hurbanova Shkola Hurbanovni (to be constructed on the current line Hurbanova - NC), East Hills

Pro

 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:43, May 19, 2013 (UTC) If more than 25+ votes here, I'll switch my vote above :P
 * There are 35 votes pro already. :P 77topaz (talk) 05:05, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Wabba The I (talk) 08:28, May 19, 2013 (UTC) East Hills need a station.
 * 8 votes. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:47, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes - I can support this, however we really need to add the cost of these projects to the budget. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 13:59, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes Daembrales (talk) 18:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes ---Sunkist- (talk) 03:23, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:03, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. (This has 52 votes now, I think) 77topaz (talk) 19:57, May 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6 votes (fasionably late ;P) Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:12, May 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Bart K (talk) 09:09, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Contra

 * (btw i never abstain, don't see the point of it) 6 votes, needs discussion in some form in the first chamber like our railway did. No petty politics please. Marcus/Michael Villanova 11:55, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * If you had read all the links I have given you earlier on, you would've known it is entirely worked out. Better than your proposal :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:38, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * What links? we never even debated this. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:25, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * In a slightly different model which also connects East Hills to Clave Rock, f.e.: --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:07, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * In a slightly different model which also connects East Hills to Clave Rock, f.e.: --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:07, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Abstain


✅ With a 52% majority. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:39, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

Comments

 * Do we really need such a large budget. Both railway projects costs too much. Yes tracks are expensive but do we really need 500 workers? Do we really need to pay them all $60,000? Wabba The I (talk) 19:17, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, it's a project that will take more than a year to construct, so we'd have to give the workers a year worth of salary. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 03:20, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * The land in Sylvania the route the track will be laid is quite flat, with lots of workers piling on forwards, it won't be much longer than 1 year. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 09:01, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, the land in Oceana is quite rocky and not flat :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:27, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes but the route it will be built along is quite flat because there was once a train track there (even with disrepair and damage it won't be too difficult to refurbish things). Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 10:34, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * True, but you seem to miss out two things: 1. It will be a double-track, so the current route will have to be broadened. 2. We need to build a new railroad bridge over the Hurbanova Stream :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 04:07, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

014. Referendum Act

 * 1) All registered Lovian citizens, aged 18 or over, may vote in any nation-wide referendum ordered by Congress.
 * 2) A referendum taking place is semi-binding to what the majority of the voters on the proposal indicated as their preference.
 * 3) Each referendum should contain two options that can be voted on by any voter.
 * 4) The option that receives the simple majority of the vote or more will become the option acted upon by Congress and the Federal Government, making appropriate changes.
 * 5) For a referendum to become semi-binding, an option must receive at least a simple majority of the votes.
 * 6) If no option is able to receive a simple majority of the vote after the first vote, the least popular option will be dropped and another vote held at a later date to settle the issue. This must occur repeatedly until an option receives a simple majority of the vote.
 * 7) The first round of voting takes place in Forum:Referendum and has a legal duration of at least one week, and two weeks at most.
 * 8) If a second round of voting is needed, it too takes place in Forum:Referendum and has a legal duration of at least one week, and two weeks at most.
 * 9) Voter turnout, the total amount of correctly casted ballots, must be at least one third of the total franchise for a referendum's result to be semi-binding.
 * 10) A referendum can only be issued by the Lovian Congress, following a simple majority in favor of any proposal to hold one.
 * 11) All referendums passed by Congress and their recorded results are added to a list of "Approved Referendums".

Pro

 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:45, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6 votes (Yes! Now we can have that referendum :D) Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:00, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes - I'd prefer if they were fully binding but it still works. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 12:20, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:47, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, we need to define semi-binding. That never got added. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:59, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes, we are going to have a referendum on the monarchy? Daembrales (talk) 18:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes ---Sunkist- (talk) 18:08, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. 77topaz (talk) 05:02, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:16, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:59, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Bart K (talk) 09:09, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Abstain


✅ With a 58% majority. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:50, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
We should a binding referendum section too? I think we should propose a referenudm on state and local councils as well ^_^ Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:59, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not a good idea. I'm contra binding referenda in the law. Any way, we as Congress ultimately should keep the power. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:10, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * We should also provide a mechanism to ensure congress largely follows the voice of the people, instead of voting NO or YES despite a majority of Lovians wanting the opposite. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:01, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * We should not :P We've got elections to pay off any wrongs. If the people are not satisfied with the way Congress works, they'll vote them away. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:30, May 27, 2013 (UTC)

015. Revision of OWTBs State Reform: no state councils
As I believe it to be in the direct need of the states to regain legislative powers, I will add a reform with just the reconfiguration of the state laws (source:, changes are fat).

Article 4 – The structure of Lovia
 * 1) The Kingdom of Lovia is governed on different levels:
 * 2) The federal level encompasses the entire Lovian territory.
 * 3) The executive power of the federal level inheres to the Government of Lovia. This government consists of the Prime Minister and the ministers of the federal government, and has control over government ministries, government institutions and civil services.
 * 4) The Prime Minister and other ministers are Members of the Congress; however, the heads of government institutions and civil services do not need to be Members of the Congress.
 * 5) All legislative power inheres to the Lovian Congress. This parliamentary body consists of the Members of the Congress, who are either democratically elected by the citizens of Lovia or who are Member by Right (the ruling monarch). Congress may, as the sole body in the nation, write and amend legal matters in the Federal Law and the Constitution.
 * 6) All judicial power inheres to the Supreme Court of Lovia.
 * 7) The state level consists of five states with limited powers: Clymene, Kings, Oceana, Seven and Sylvania.
 * 8) The executive power of the federal level inheres to the Governor of each state, both democratically elected by the citizens of each state.
 * 9) The local level, consisting of cities and towns, and the sublocal level, consisting of neighborhoods and hamlets, are governed by the state authorities.

Article 5 – Legislature and executive power
 * 1) In general, the competencies of the state level are limited to local government that does not interfere with federal law and government. The following competencies belong to the state level:
 * 2) The naming, organizing and maintaining of urban parks, public places, streets, markets, roads (with the exclusion of highways), waterways, natural areas and environmentally significant places that are not protected by the federal government, culturally significant monuments that are not protected by the federal government.
 * 3) Informing the state population about the various aspects of the state, the federal government and its policies.
 * 4) The construction and planning of neighborhoods and hamlets.
 * 5) The Governor may decide on the construction, destruction, re-organization of neighborhoods and hamlets in that specific state.
 * 6) The Lovian Congress may overrule the Governor's decision by a normal majority. From the moment a bill to overrule that decision has been proposed to Congress, the Governor cannot proceed with the construction, destruction or re-organization. If the decision is in effect overruled by Congress, the Governor may not construct, destroy or re-organize neighborhoods and hamlets for one month, to protect the state and its inhabitants from whimsical construction plans.
 * 7) Bringing the people of Lovia and the different levels and branches of government closer to one another.
 * 8) Advising the Lovian Congress on issues related to the particular state.
 * 9) Advising federal institutions in relation to protected natural regions and culturally significant locations and monuments in the particular state.
 * 10) Creating and managing state agencies and corporations which have the sole function and duty to perform the tasks the state government is entitled to perform, including but not exclusively maintaining roads and waterways and protecting cultural and natural heritage.
 * 11) Such agencies and corporations are not entitled to engage in other economic activities.
 * 12) The number of such agencies and corporations within one state may not exceed five, allowing states to run a cultural heritage agency, a natural protection agency, a public works corporation, an urban planning agency, and other possible such agencies or corporations.
 * 13) All competencies not covered by the states inhere to the federal level.
 * 14) When a state is in conflict with the federal level or with another state, in relation to their legal competencies, any of the involved parties may consult the Supreme Court.
 * 15) The Supreme Court Judge must in turn consult the laws of Lovia and must interpret these justly and with respect to the well-being of the Lovians.
 * 16) The Supreme Court Judge must then decide to which of the involved parties the competency of conflict inheres.
 * 17) The Supreme Court Judge may also find the matter inconclusive. He or she may then require the Congress to amend the Constitution. Such a requirement is binding and obligatory.

Article 6 – Amending the Federal Law and State Law
 * 1) A motion to amend the Federal Law can be:
 * 2) * A proposal for a new article in the Federal Law;
 * 3) * A proposal to amend a section of the Federal Law;
 * 4) * A proposal to remove a section of the Federal Law.
 * 5) The required steps to propose a motion to the Federal Law in Congress:
 * 6) All Lovian citizens may write and propose motions to the Federal Law.
 * 7) Motions are presented to the Members of the Congress in the First Chamber.
 * 8) All Members of the Congress are expected to read the motion and form a personal opinion about it. In order to obtain the support of a majority of Members of the Congress, changes may be proposed in the First Chamber.
 * 9) If the proposing Member of the Congress expects that the majority of Congress is in favor of the motion, he or she may move it to the Second Chamber.
 * 10) All Members of the Congress are expected to vote on the motion in the Second Chamber.
 * 11) There are three valid voting options: pro (in favor of the motion), contra (in opposition to the motion) and abstention (the wish not to vote).
 * 12) A normal majority is required to pass a motion. A normal majority is described as more than fifty percent of the valid votes.
 * 13) All Members of the Congress have two weeks’ time to cast their vote in the Second Chamber. Voting may be closed earlier if the required majority is reached. The proposer may also choose to lengthen the voting period.
 * 14) When the motion is accepted by Congress, it must be implemented. The Minister of Justice, the Prime Minister and the ruling monarch are enprivileged to enshrine passed motions in the law, although all Members of the Congress may do it, if done correctly.
 * 15) When the motion is not accepted, either because the majority opposed it or because no majority was found in favor of the motion, it shall be removed from the Second Chamber. Any citizen and Member of the Congress has the right to propose an altered version for reconsideration in the First Chamber.
 * 16) A motion that is not intended to be enshrined in the Federal Law, but that does need Congressial approval, is proposed and voted in the same way.
 * 17) For each motion that has been moved to the Second Chamber by Congress, and that is in due time either approved, rejected or proven unable to gain the required support, Congress must keep a record, starting February 1st of the year 2011, which will be known as the Congressional Journal.
 * 18) A motion to amend the State Law can be:
 * 19) * A proposal for a new article in the State Law;
 * 20) * A proposal to amend a section of the State Law;
 * 21) * A proposal to remove a section of the State Law.
 * 22) The required steps to propose a motion to the State Law:
 * 23) All Lovian citizens that reside in the concerning State may write and propose motions to the State Law.
 * 24) Motions are presented to the respective State's Governor.
 * 25) The Governor is expected to read the motion and form a personal opinion about it. In order to obtain the support of the Governor, changes may be proposed.
 * 26) The Governor has two weeks time to either accept or decline a proposal.
 * 27) When the motion is accepted by the Governor, it must be implemented. The Governor and the Deputy Governor are enprivileged to enshrine passed motions in the law, although all citizens of the respective State may do that, if done correctly.
 * 28) When the motion is not accepted, either because the Governor opposed it or because the two weeks consideration time expired, it shall not be implemented.
 * 29) Any citizen has the right to propose an altered version for reconsideration to the Governor.
 * 30) A motion that is not intended to be enshrined in the State Law, but that does need Governor's approval, is proposed and managed in the same way.
 * 31) The Lovian Congress reserves the right to block additions and amendments to the State Law by a normal majority, if the motion is deemed contradictive, unconstitutional or illegal.
 * 32) It is legal for States to create a State Council with the State's own choice of election system and system of running. However, the Governor has the final say over the workings of the State, behind the Federal Congress.

Pro

 * 4 votes Bart K (talk) 09:31, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:46, June 8, 2013 (UTC) I'd still prefer the other version, but we need this. The states are practically dead now...
 * 4 votes Wabba The I (talk) 21:09, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes - Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 10:40, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes I deleted obsolete 5.1.3.1.2, by the way. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:43, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6 votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:53, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes I see nothing wrong with this. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:24, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:45, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 Votes --Quarantine Zone (talk) 15:24, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. I think this would be the best current option for state laws. 77topaz (talk) 08:12, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes. --Semyon 15:52, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes Daembrales (talk) 17:52, June 11, 2013 (UTC) hooray for state law!

Abstain

 * 1 vote Wabba The I (talk) 10:23, June 8, 2013 (UTC) What do you mean with article 6: 2.5.3 the last part: "the proposer may also choose to lengthen the voting period"?


 * That's a part which already exists in the current law: it means that if a majority has not yet been reached within two weeks (because of some temporarily inactive politicians), but chances are high it will be accepted, the proposer may choose to add another week of voting. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:30, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a part which already exists in the current law: it means that if a majority has not yet been reached within two weeks (because of some temporarily inactive politicians), but chances are high it will be accepted, the proposer may choose to add another week of voting. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:30, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
I propose to add this line: It is legal for states to create a state council with the state's own choice of election system and system of running. However, the Governor has the final say over the workings of the state, behind the federal Congress. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 13:47, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't really add anything, cause it's not illegal without the line being in the law. But if you think it's really necessary, we'll add it :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:30, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not really necessary, it'd just be nice. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:50, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, if anyone objects to this, just change your vote . --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:45, June 10, 2013 (UTC) that'd be clear enough I'd say :P

A quick calculation: 58 out of 67 > 9 to go :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:23, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and if you're some of those nine votes, please also vote pro on the election amendment farther up the page. x) —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:19, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

I never understood though why we don't do it out of percentage of votes casted. I mean within a two week period obviously people will vote pro or contra, and it will be seen, so why not just count those who want it passed or not passed. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:26, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

Because if two out of three total voters (of one hundred MOTCs) voted, it shouldn't pass. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:27, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

yeah but thats why each law must have two weeks of minimal voting. So within that two week period if another memebr sees it and votes contra then it doesn't pass :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:29, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

5 to go :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:20, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

✅ --Semyon 15:53, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

WE HAVE STATE COUNCILS  depending on the state and laws which will take time Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:59, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

016. Weapons and Safety Act

 * 1) Concealed weapons licenses must be obtained in order to conceal any fire arms from others while in public.
 * 2) All owners must be at least 24 years of age.
 * 3) Ballistic knives and sheath knives are not considered fire arms.
 * 4) All automatic weapons are illegal, except in the case of an official government military, militia, or police.
 * 5) Switchblade knives are illegal to manufacture, trade, sell, and buy, but legal to own for historical purposes.
 * 6) Bayonets are illegal to manufacture, trade, sell, and buy, but legal to own for historical purposes.
 * 7) Bullets containing poison, toxins, and explosives are illegal to manufacture, trade, buy, sell, and own, except in the case of an official government military, militia, or police.
 * 8) In the case of an official government military, militia, or police, soft chemical explosives are legal.
 * 9) This includes chemicals similar to the following: Capsaicin (pepper spray), phenacyl chloride (mace), sleeping gas, tear gas, or chemicals in stun grenades.
 * 10) Sleeping gas is any chemical containing halothane vapour (Fluothane), methyl propyl ether (Neothyl), methoxyflurane (Penthrane), 3-Quinuclidinyl benzilate or fentanyl.
 * 11) Tear gas is any chemical containing chlorobenzalmalononitrile, dibenzoxazepine, nonivamide, bromoacetone, xylyl bromide, or synpropanethial-S-oxide.
 * 12) Stun grenades are any explosive containing pyrotechnic metal-oxidant mixes of magnesium or aluminum, ammonium perchlorate, or potassium perchlorate.
 * 13) Newly manufactured items that have a similar look or use to firearms are required to have orange tips to signify that they are not legally firearms.
 * 14) This includes but is not limited to water guns, airsoft guns, paintball guns, pellet guns, BB guns, and model guns.
 * 15) Bows and crossbows are considered weapons fit for hunting.

Pro

 * 3 Votes --Quarantine Zone (talk) 21:23, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6 votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:21, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:55, June 15, 2013 (UTC) (though I agree that the last line is rather useless)

Abstain

 * 4 votes - Only on the grounds that I find the ban on certain weapons to be a bit too overreaching. Like maybe my guy wants a fully automatic rifle. However, on the grounds of protecting citizens and not being a gun nut, I agree with the billion. Since I'm split on the matter, I abstain. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:29, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why the * would you need an automatic rifle for self-protection? A normal gun is more than enough and if won't cause as much collateral damage :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:55, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes - Argh, I still think this might be mergeable with the Firearms Act. The last line is kind of meaningless, also. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:25, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. Yeah, this should probably be reworked, indeed. 77topaz (talk) 04:33, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes there are bits overly picky and far too specific, I also think that a change like this needs to be a complete rethink of the firearms act and more. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 09:57, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Like 77topaz, Hoffmann and TimeMaster said. Wabba The I (talk) 13:24, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. Bart K (talk) 12:48, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

017. No confidence
With the passing of this motion, Congress withdraws its support for the Ilava II Government and calls for immediate federal elections.

Pro

 * 5 votes. --Semyon 11:38, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6 votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:28, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes - I still support the Ilava government in many ways but the way that certain parties now hold power they shouldn't is something I am firmly against. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 13:00, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 Votes. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 19:07, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes - Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 10:50, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Bart K (talk) 12:48, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Contra

 * 8 votes - Btw, I thought we were trying to keep the numbers (017. etc.) first & second chamber proposals synchronized? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:28, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes (might move to abstain). New elections are unnecessary as our congress is active and works well. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:00, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. As per Horton11. 77topaz (talk) 02:28, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Wabba The I (talk) 13:21, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Abstention

 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:55, June 15, 2013 (UTC) I haven't decided yet

Comments
We have inactive people, so what happens if of all total votes cast, there is a majority Pro? There's also a mismatch between motions of confidence (the first proposal that selects the government at the top of this page) and motions of no confidence: a contra for a confidence is a pro for a no confidence and vice versa. But what's an abstention? Should the government be required to maintain confidence, so we'd need a 50% vote Contra to block this proposal? I don't even know; I'll check the Constitution. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:40, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I checked this already. A motion of confidence is treated like any other, so this will have to receive 50% pro to pass. :) --Semyon 15:42, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, just checked that too. Maybe it's something to consider changing next Congress? :/ —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:45, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, imo wouldn't an absentation, in this case, just be like not voting at all since it's just a straight foward Yes or No vote? Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:51, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, this bill has to get 50% to pass as normal. So as usual abstentions are the same as voting contra, practically speaking. --Semyon 15:53, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * IDK how that goes but I thought you wanted the SCP destroyed, this would be a way to raise activity and get rid of them. Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:40, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I do, but I don't think an entirely new Congress is necessary. :P I might change my vote later, though. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 15:46, June 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well that's not nice. Lovia should not go into dirty politics like our neighbors to the east. My future with SCP is uncertain and has to be decided. I might just act on behalf of the party and merge it into a new project if Marcus is still in (as Happy is not around). HORTON11  Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 17:00, June 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well Ill have to talk to you about that, honestly on chat or now. I have questions Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:30, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not nice, but it's the truth. SCP just doesn't fit in Lovian politics in my idealistic view. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 04:02, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Personally I have nothing against the SCP, apart from wanting a chance to reclaim the seats that people gave the CNP, not the SCP. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 07:05, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Obvious analysis time It's 25-24-16 and since not the whole congress agrees and the rest inactive most likely not gonna pass unless oos gets along. Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:21, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * But, guys, elections are fun. :'( --Semyon 17:47, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * You might be able to force one by resigning from the Government, and then when Congress can't appoint another due to not having 50% confidence, it will have to dissolve. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:54, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah but then technically, it would have to wait a month since we'd be "inactive" from congress" (right?) I still supprot them I hope you do to TM. I mean technically the only way we get anyhting done it by having 90% of the actives on board (which can never happen) and then the parties with smaller members (like yours) calling and calling for there members to finally just vote! It takes to long we need an active congress. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:00, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Also, we apparently don't have a provision for a Congress being unable to provide a successor to a minister post, but we do have this: "The Prime Minister may schedule new federal elections at any time. If he or she decides to do so, both the government and Congress are dissolved and new federal elections are to be held, with the former government and congress continuing until inauguration of the new congress." Finally, I don't strongly oppose (it's weak) them but I don't really want to abstain from the vote either, and I just ended up voting Contra. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 18:02, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Woh, I didn't know the PM actually has something he can do :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:08, June 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * He's also a member of various inactive boards. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:10, June 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * To clear the air, Oos is on one of my Labour boards and too be honest only a few ministers actually do "things" with there positions. While adding to the "inactive" argument, It's me, you and Kunarian only doing something with their ministry positions. Again i'd like a new congress hopefully Oos and you changes the votes for a new congress to be made. Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:57, June 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I still got a minimum of ten days to decide :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 05:56, June 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Marcus, that statement isn't fully accurate. I, as Minister of Tourism and Sport, have revived the LSCA Major Soccer League and also worked on the Lovian Men's Curling Association and the Tour of Lovia. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to be as active in the Ministry of Environment, though I have worked on the National Park Service. 77topaz (talk) 06:24, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

I still am not sure about it. It could be useful, but a year is ridiculously short of a term. Most countries have two years at the least, usually four years or more. I'd rather we sort this out in the next Congress, as I'm unsure if we'll really gain anything from a new Congress, other than Happy's seats going from 9 down to 5 or so and PL being eliminated and amendments being a bit easier to pass. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 03:27, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

There would be a lot of shift I think. Labour would definitely lose seats as well and I think that I would lose at least two seats if not three. I think that GP would lose seats as well, and there would probably be some minor changes to other things. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 20:46, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

Another Green Energy Act repeal
Pointless act as pointed out by Seymon and Kunarian. Any Concerns? To the GP or Greens who think this is an attack on environmentalism, i'm the biggest green here, but this isn't even enforced, empty language and just, I don't even get it. I'm sorry how would you expect a nation to become fully green in 2 years? To the neo-cons, hopefully this means later on we do get some moderate legislation and you support it for a greener lovia. Hopefully I hope you vote pro (a social democrat taking away regulation, Tony Blair must be similing from heaven) Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:05, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

Pro

 * 6 Votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:05, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 Votes - tony blair isn't dead... yet. Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 15:10, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sadly. Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:17, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes MartijnM (talk) 17:55, August 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * 9 votes  Happy65   Talk CNP LogoCNP.png 12:56, August 13, 2013 (UTC)

Contra

 * There is no positive effect in removing it, because any addition of coal/oil/natural gas hasn't been approved by the community yet. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:47, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:19, July 1, 2013 (UTC) agree with TM. we need an alternative first.

Abstain

 * 4 votes. Until I see what the proposed "alternative" is, I cannot really vote for this. 77topaz (talk) 04:44, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes. Until we get a good alternative I'm neutral on this. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:50, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Bart K (talk) 10:45, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
Is there actually a replacement act this time? 77topaz (talk) 20:00, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, those were my first thoughts as well. Wouldn't it be a good idea to write at least a replacemtn act? I mean, it doesn't have to be fully fleshed out, but a draft would be nice. Cadaro (www.tonefactory.lo) 22:02, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Can't believe you got a socialist saying this but, jesus this regulation is too much, and tbh i've never met a leftist who hasn't like a regulation, but heres one to start. Its so broad and useless, OOC it would be never passed. So sure write a replacement but we have to start by repealing it. Marcus/Michael Villanova 02:35, July 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * @77/GP - But as a Green this act actually harms you instead of helping. The laguage is empty, useless and not even enforced since its passing. So as a green or strong environmentalist and you say "Okay I support the current language" what your getting it nothing anyway, repealing it would be the first step to new legistaltion. I get the whole "we need lengthier legistlation though: but this is literally nothing and actually harms the green cause because it seems as if theres actually somthing there but there isn't. So hopefully you vote to repeal and then work on new legislation. Marcus/Michael Villanova 04:58, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why don't we work on new legislation before repealing the current act? Because, if this gets repealed now, we will have no legislation on this matter. 77topaz (talk) 06:20, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * But look at the empirical argument, this current legislation does nothing right? This legislation while "Sweeping" isn't enforced. So keeping it or repealing it does nothing, keeping though actually makes it seem like something is getting done and that were all green n stuff, but were not. Repealing it would just eliminate unnesscary regulation (which effects Pool, and sea towns) and allow for actual legislation to be passed instead of being teased into thinking that this is good regulation. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:41, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it just makes nonrenewable energy illegal. It is only a preventative, since we only had renewable at the time it was passed. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:44, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Topaz and Oos. I would like to see a clear solution, concise and effective before we go replacing this. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:50, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

Article 12 - Taxation Act

 * Article 12.1 - Taxation Regulation
 * In accordance with the Financial Outline Act, Congress should set tax levies in a federal budget in February or March for the budget of the fiscal year starting on April 1.
 * A normal majority is required to set tax levy amounts.
 * The tax levies may be reset to a different rate at any time in February or March.
 * Congress may not change the levies after April 1.
 * A proposal of set levies must fulfill one of the following aims:
 * The aim of filling a budget that has been drawn up by the Ministry of Finance; or,
 * The aim of filling a budget that has been drawn up by the Ministry of Finance and paying off debt accumulated by the government.
 * States may set and change levies of different taxes on a State level. These taxes are additional on top of taxes set by Congress.
 * Governors may set tax levies to raise money for use by the State governments, these taxes must be set with one of the following aims. The aim of funding State projects that are beneficial to the prosperity of the State or the aim of funding State projects that are beneficial to the prosperity of the State and paying off debt accumulated by the State government.
 * Congress may overturn the levies set by the Governor by voting with a normal majority.
 * Should Congress overturn levies set by the Governor, then the Governor may not set new levies for four weeks and current levies in the state are set to flat 0% rates.
 * The Ministry of Finance is responsible for filing and collecting taxes.
 * The Ministry of Finance must create documents that shall be used by government and individuals for filing taxes.
 * These documents must be simple, easy to understand and must not be misleading, there must also be a way to trace who filed the taxes on the documents.
 * The Ministry of Finance files taxes for all individuals or corporations unless otherwise stated.
 * In cases where the Ministry files taxes so that an individual or corporation ends up paying more tax than due, they are given an exemption in the next tax year equivalent to the over taxation. In cases where the Ministry files taxes so that an individual or corporation ends up paying less tax than due, the Ministry may request but may not force the individual or corporation to pay the difference on top of taxes in the next tax year.
 * In cases where an individual or corporation files their taxes so that they end up paying more tax than due, they may not request reparations or an exemption. In cases where an individual or corporation files taxes so that an individual or corporation ends up paying less tax than due, the Ministry may force the individual or corporation to pay the difference on top of taxes in the next tax year.
 * The Ministry of Finance must create a department for collecting taxes.
 * Those employed by the Ministry of Finance to this department are considered tax collectors.
 * Tax collectors are responsible for filing taxes
 * Tax collectors may collect taxes electronically with permission of the tax payer, they may also collect them from their bank account with the permission of the tax payer and they may also collect it in person from the tax payer with their permission.
 * Tax collectors are the enforcers of taxation within Lovia. They are given the right to temporarily seize property of tax evaders, disallow individuals or individuals of corporations to leave the country, revoke a citizens passport, use force to detain tax evaders and arrest tax evaders.
 * In all cases the Ministry of Defence must keep up to date with the actions of tax collectors and co-operate in enforcing their rights and must actively assist the Ministry of Finance in the detainment and arrest of tax evaders until they are brought before court.
 * An illegality is committed if any of the following occur:
 * A government official fails to correctly collect or file taxes due to negligence.
 * An individual fails to correctly file taxes with the intent of reducing the amount of tax paid.
 * Illegalities can be punished by imprisonment for up to 5 years, by a fine set at a reasonable amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit. Preference should be shown towards a fine as punishment.
 * Article 12.2 - Income Tax
 * Every individual of 18 years of age or older must pay Income Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so. To be eligible to pay Income Tax and an individual must do one of the following.
 * Be earning income as defined below and must have resided within Lovia's national borders during the tax year.
 * Be a Lovian citizen earning income as defined below and must be earning income from an individual or corporation which resides within Lovia's national borders.
 * In this case only the income gained from the individual or corporation that resides within Lovia's national borders is eligible for tax.
 * Income is the sum total of the following.
 * Wage and salaries.
 * Wages, salaries and tips recieved by an individual for performing a service for another individual or entity or from another individual or corporation they are employee of, minus any wages, salaries or tips that an individual has given to another individual for being an employee of the concerned individual.
 * Pensions.
 * Pensions or annuity payments recieved by an individual from another individual or corporation minus any pensions or annuity payments that an individual has given to another individual. Pensions and annuity payments are fixed payments over a specified or unspecified period of time.
 * Capital gains.
 * Capital gains received by an individual from another individual or corporation. Capital gains are the profits gained by buying and then selling property, shares or bonds.
 * Lump sums.
 * Lump sums received by an individual from another individual or corporation, minus any lump sums that an individual has given to another individual. Lump sums are single payments of money.
 * Rental income.
 * rental income recieved by an individual from another individual or corporation, minus any rent that an individual has given to another individual. Rental income is when a payment is made for the temporary use of a good, service or property owned by another individual.
 * Dividends.
 * dividends recieved by an individual from a corporation. Dividends are payments made by a corporation to its shareholder members.
 * Income Tax required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individuals income and levying a set percentage which goes to the Ministry of Finance.
 * An exemption from this levy may be set, a next number of Lovian Dollars of income may have a set percentage levied and this may be done multiple times. All other income after these bands has a set percent levied.
 * Income Tax must be paid every year on the 1st of March.
 * Unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Income Tax for individuals however individuals residing within Lovia have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Income Tax.
 * The Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * An illegality is committed if any of the following occurs:
 * An individual distributes income to others for the main purpose of reducing the amount of tax paid.
 * An individual evades or otherwise fails to pay said taxes.
 * Illegalities can be punished by imprisonment for up to 5 years, by a fine set at a reasonable amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit. Preference should be shown towards a fine as punishment.
 * Article 12.3 - Property Tax
 * Every individual or corporation who owns property or land as defined by law within Lovia must pay Property Tax should they be eligible as defined by law to do so. To be eligible to pay Property Tax an individual or corporation must do one of the following.
 * Own property or land within Lovia's national borders.
 * Property is the combination of land and an improvement that has been built upon said land.
 * To avoid confusion property is measured in square metres by taking the distance between the furthest points along the width of the improvement and multiplying them by the distance between the furthest points along the length of the improvement.
 * Property is considered land if the improvements width and length are each no larger than 2 meters in size.
 * Land is land that has not had an improvement built upon it.
 * To avoid confusion land is measured in square metres.
 * Property Tax on property required to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individual or corporations measured property and levying a set amount which goes to the Ministry of Finance depending on the amount of measured property owned.
 * An exemption from this levy may be set. All other property has a set levy of Lovian cents per square metre set.
 * Unless the property is under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service, National Monument Service or is Federal or State property in which case all other property has a different levy of Lovian cents per square metre set.
 * Property Tax on land require to be paid is calculated by taking the concerned individual or corporations measured land and levying a set amount which goes to the Ministry of Finance depending on the amount of measured property owned.
 * An exemption from this levy may be set. All other land has a set levy of Lovian cents per square metre set.
 * Unless the land is under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service, National Monument Service, is Federal or State property or is being used for agricultural purposes, in which case all other land has a different levy of Lovians cents per square metre set.
 * Property Tax must be paid every year on the 1st of March.
 * Unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Property Tax for individuals and corporations however individuals and corporations based in Lovia have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Property Tax.
 * The Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual or corporation with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * An illegality is committed if any of the following occur:
 * An individual or corporation evades or otherwise fails to pay said taxes.
 * Illegalities can be punished by imprisonment for up to 5 years, by a fine set at a reasonable amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit. Preference should be shown towards confiscation of property as punishment.
 * Article 12.4 - Imported Sales Tax
 * Every individual or corporation which operates within Lovia's national borders must pay Imported Sales Tax should they be defined by law as eligible to do so. To be eligible to pay Imported Sales Tax an individual or corporation must do one of the following.
 * Have brought goods from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders.
 * Not be a citizen or be based outside Lovia's national borders.
 * Individuals or corporations who have brought goods brought from outside Lovia's national borders into Lovia's national borders must register the goods with customs officers.
 * Imported Sales Tax is required to be paid on all goods when they are first sold within Lovia's national borders after having been harvested or manufactured outside of them and all services when they are paid for within Lovia's national borders.
 * Worth is the amount of Lovian Dollars the good or service is sold for.
 * Imported Sales Tax required to be paid is calculated by taking the worth of the imported goods when sold and levying a set percentage which goes to the Ministry of Finance.
 * all worth has an exclusive percentage levy set.
 * Imported Sales Tax must be paid every year on the 1st of March.
 * Unless otherwise requested, the Ministry of Finance will manage the payment of Imported Sales Tax for individuals however individuals or corporations residing within Lovia have the right to request that they be allowed to manage the payment of their Imported Sales Tax.
 * The Ministry of Finance may not refuse this request and must supply the individual or corporation with the documentation to file their own taxes.
 * An illegality is committed if any of the following occur:
 * An individual or corporation evades or otherwise fails to pay said taxes.
 * Failure to register all the goods that have been imported due to either intent or by negligence.
 * Illegalities can be punished by imprisonment for up to 5 years, by a fine set at a reasonable amount or by the confiscation of property as the judge sees fit. Preference should be shown towards a fine as punishment.

Pro

 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 11:33, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes - Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 11:38, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:45, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 Votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:00, July 21, 2013 (UTC) (Marcel has one of my votes now :P)
 * 1 vote Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 17:30, July 21, 2013 (UTC) (My first ever vote in Congress, using the vote Marcus gave me)
 * 4 votes. This seems foolproof enough. 77topaz (talk) 20:14, July 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:49, July 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Bart K (talk) 10:44, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes MartijnM (talk) 17:54, August 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * 9 votes  Happy65   Talk CNP LogoCNP.png 13:01, August 13, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
46 pro votes! we need more people to vote! signal everyone! Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 14:36, August 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Passed as well, finally :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:06, August 13, 2013 (UTC
 * By me :3  Happy65   Talk CNP LogoCNP.png 13:11, August 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, and several others too :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:21, August 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * :P 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 13:25, August 13, 2013 (UTC)

014. Financial Outline Act

 * 1) The expenditures and revenue of the Government of Lovia are managed by a budget.
 * 2) Expenditures are the outflow of money from the Government, spent in order to maintain the programs and organs of government and support the nation of Lovia and its interests.
 * 3) Revenue is the inflow of money into the Government, collected in order to pay for expenditures.
 * 4) Revenue includes taxes and tariffs, outlined in the Taxation Act, and any income generated by a program or organ of the Government.
 * 5) On April 1 of each calendar year, a budget passed by Congress shall go into effect.
 * 6) Such a budget must be passed by a normal majority in Congress during the months of February or March of the same calendar year.
 * 7) After April 1 and before December 31 of the same calendar year, all citizens eligible for taxation should outline and pay their taxes to the Government.
 * 8) Citizens who do not complete this procedure may be prosecuted for tax evasion by the Ministry of Justice.
 * 9) Congress may modify the expenditures of the budget by a normal majority after April 1 to accommodate any unforeseen changes, but not the revenue.
 * 10) In the event that no budget is passed by Congress, the budget from the previous year should be extended proportionally for the amount of extra time it is being used until a new budget is passed by Congress.
 * 11) In this case, citizens should file and pay their taxes once the newer budget is passed. If they have already filed and pay their taxes for the old budget, a refund will be given once the citizen pays their taxes for the newer budget.
 * 12) A budget must include the following items:
 * 13) A setting of tax and tariff rates for each tax and tariff explained in the Taxation Act, which may or may not be variable depending on the income or profit of the paying entity.
 * 14) A setting of expenditures made by the government.
 * 15) Expenditures must meet the necessary costs for the upkeep of all government programs and organs and all other non-discretionary spending.
 * 16) An outline of income from non-tax or tariff sources.
 * 17) A budget made by the Government should have its revenue be equal to or greater than the total expenditures made by the Government.
 * 18) This provision may be ignored in times of national crisis.
 * 19) When the federal budget is facing a deficit, the state must borrow money on the financial market.
 * 20) When the federal budget has a surplus, it should be used to pay off the country's debt.
 * 21) Spending the surplus on new policy can only be done if the new policy is taken up in the budget, lowering the surplus.
 * 22) If there is no national debt, the surplus should either be converted to new policy or saved in a reserve fund.
 * 23) The Ministry of Finance is responsible for heading the creation and enforcement of a national budget.
 * 24) The Ministry should work alongside Congress, the other Ministries, and the rest of the Government to formulate a budget each year.
 * 25) The Government must not overfund or underfund any program or organ of the government within its budget.

Pro

 * 8 votes —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 12:45, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes Marcus/Michael Villanova 14:02, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:42, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1 vote Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 17:31, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes - Hoffmann LogoCNP.png Kunarian TALK 18:11, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. 77topaz (talk) 20:14, July 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3 votes Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:50, July 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Bart K (talk) 10:45, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes. Everyone seems to think it's a good idea. :) --Semyon 17:08, August 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Semyon, could you also vote the one above this one? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:35, August 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes MartijnM (talk) 17:54, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
53 votes pro! :D (this isn't a constitutional admendment so it passed right?) Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:11, August 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:29, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅ (since Semyon seems to have been neglected his post for months and this isn't the first time other users have helped out with this role :P) 77topaz (talk) 20:13, August 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * So if I understand you correctly, the proposal is accepted because there's some mysterious responsibility I've failed to do? Seems rather illogical to me. --Semyon 13:51, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

018. No confidence
Congress is now pretty much completely inactive. It no longer serves its purpose of representing the Lovian people. Furthermore, recent political debates such as the future of the monarchy, whether Mr. Ilava should be created Heretow, and the recent creation of new settlements would be best discussed in the context of an election, so the people are able to make the final decision. This is especially true considering that a number of parties have disbanded and reformed since the election - I'm thinking of the SCP and Labour/RLP in particular. A renewed mandate for all politicians in congress would definitely not be a bad thing. Finally, it's well-known that elections in Lovia lead to increased activity. New and enthusiastic congressmen, forced to fight for election or reëlection, will be sure to rejuvenate the legislature.

Therefore, without intending any criticism of the government, with the passing of this motion, Congress withdraws its support for the Ilava II Government and calls for immediate federal elections. --Semyon 19:43, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Pro

 * --Semyon 19:43, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Contra

 * 8 votes —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:06, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Bart K (talk) 10:46, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes - I look forward to a rejuvenated system, but I am not ready yet. — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 22:49, August 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 votes MartijnM (talk) 17:55, August 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * 9 votes <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP LogoCNP.png 12:40, August 13, 2013 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 4 votes. With the two new votes, Congress seems reasonably active. Hasn't the mid-term elections period already passed, anyway? 77topaz (talk) 20:48, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * It may be active but you need enough of it to be active for more than 66% of Congress to consistently vote, we don't have that. Hoffmann LogoCNP2.png Kunarian TALK 21:12, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * 14 votes --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:07, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
I would only comment back to Mr.Seymon that "without intending any critcism of him" that he did not vote on either very important economic measures and should vote on them before we try to disband congress. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:14, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * OK fair enough. However, bluntly put, trying to roleplay the economy doesn't work and therefore I can't work up any interest in financial legislation. I'd rather set up a cultural organisation or something. :) --Semyon 17:06, August 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Haa sorry was having a bad day. I gree with your comments and the reason for the vote of no confidence, but seems as if the votes for it just aren't there so we shall wait to Novemeber and January. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:43, August 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think we can roleplay the economy. Just make up little news issues. — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 22:50, August 4, 2013 (UTC)

019. Donia for King
Alright, this's been takin' way de long :P This vote is for officially replacing King Dimitri I with King Sebastian I, to be played by Donia (The Master's Voice).

We need a 50% majority. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:33, August 13, 2013 (UTC)

Pro

 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:33, August 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 9 votes <font color="Teal"> Happy65  <font color="Aqua"> Talk CNP  LogoCNP.png 13:35, August 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:11, August 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes - Why? Because I don't like the current monarch. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:28, August 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 14:13, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Wabba The I (talk) 20:58, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. Bart K (talk) 14:24, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes. --Semyon 16:48, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

Contra

 * 8 votes, and revert the changes to Alexander. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:15, August 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes - Hell no! Referendum on Monarchy or Republic, then if Monarchy then prefered choice. I thought that was the way it would be done. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:42, August 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. Yeah, I thought the same thing as Marcus as well. :P 77topaz (talk) 20:10, August 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1 vote. Hey! Who took my vote off! And I'm voting contra for reasons I've already stated Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 09:39, August 15, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
I don't think this is legal, so we will have to get a 67% vote, because we are ousting a king, which the constitution does not allow. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 17:15, August 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * It is both legal and legitimate and a 50% majority will suffice. And Prince Alexander ain't going anywhere. We've been over this already, Timey. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 18:49, August 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Wrong, the Constitution has nothing stopping Congress from changing the Monarch neither does the law. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 00:02, August 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure 1B 2 and 4 can be interpreted that this is not allowed. Just because it's not explicitly forbidden doesn't mean it's allowed. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:29, August 14, 2013 (UTC)

What's up with these hipster monarchs? Can't we get one adult ruler, not some random weirdo with a guitar? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:30, August 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Alexander won't be King, Prince Sebastian will be, Dimitri's cousin. Whose pictures are pictures of me myself. As you read his biography you will see Sebastian is a classy guy, a former diplomat and a learned man. A serious and hard-working man in a stable marriage. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 20:32, August 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * TMV - It's 67% to change the constitution, 50% to Federal Law. 67% is needed on this vote because the Constitution says who the monarch is not federal law. So again, it needs 67% vote! Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:22, August 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not changing the Constitution, no law forbids a change in Monarchy via the Congress and as the Congress is the highest legislative power in the land it cannot be barred from doing so. Only an amendment to the law, restricting Congress's powers would change this. Also all executive power is vested in the Government, so in many ways Oos could oust Dimitri and install TMV, not truly democratic but he has the power. One thing Lovia lacks is a limitation on Government power but to be honest what do you expect when the constitution was written by those in favour of over-arching government. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 00:02, August 14, 2013 (UTC)

May I just say that I favour a referendum of the people although considering Congress are the elected representatives of such people, this is legitimate but some may question by how much. Personally I continue to favour a continued Monarchy for the benefits they bring and the amount of work that will be have to be done to correct a massive change in Lovia and I favour TMV as monarch for the simple reason of needing an active and strong leadership. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 00:05, August 14, 2013 (UTC) It is apart of the Constitution, I would argue since you are changing the line of sucession, it would take a 67% majority.Does he have that power really? Tbh I don't know, I know he has the power to disband congress (a bit much don't you agree?). Well I've argued for republic, but i'd like to see the Monarchy/Republic referendum first please! Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:20, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) The method of the line of succession to the Lovian throne is absolute cognatic primogeniture. Therefore, the person who legally inherits the Lovian throne, after the previous ruling monarch has either deceased or abdicated, is the person who is the eldest child of the previous monarch. If the monarch had no children, the throne goes to the next oldest sibling, followed by younger siblings and cousins.
 * 2) All descendants of Arthur I of Lovia are part of the line of succession, regardless of any activity, except for those that have requested that they be removed. (Section 2, 2.1)
 * You are not changing the line of succession. What is happening is that Congress is voting to impeach the Monarch and impose a new Monarch in their place. There is nothing written on that within the law, nothing for it but as a key point nothing against it, therefore it can take place. Besides the constitution only covers inheriting the throne and line of succession NOT (and maybe this is something to correct) Congress impeachment nor Congress imposing a new Monarch, which as the highest legislative authority it can do. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 01:53, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * The constitution already has this covered; Alexander will request not to be included in the Line of Succession for personal reasons. Consider him having done that already. Leaves us with the next of kin: the son of a previous monarch. But, alas, Arthur III who was King before Dimitri has no descendents in the LoS as they requested to not be included. So we go to the closest thing we have, which is Dimitri's oldest paternal cousin, Prince Sebastian. To do so is perfectly legal. So yes, we can oust Dimitri. And yes, we can select his cousin to replace him. We can and we will. As for the becoming a republic part, Oos brought this up earlier but I might as well say it again: to cleanse all the pages on this site of any mention of a crown and royals would be a bitch, and there is absolutely zero added value to do that no matter what any unimaginative American republican might say. I know you hated King George and all for his grand colonial bitchery but don't be hatin' on Sebastian. I'll see to it that he be a good and loyal citizen of Lovia and a truly inspiring patriotic individual. It will be a cultural enrichment to our nation and an overall good development and it sure beats having a monarch who is never around and forsakes his royal duties. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 06:08, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * We don't have to retcon the monarchy, we could just replace it. 77topaz (talk) 06:20, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * That too takes time, and would only be done on a personal whim of the minority of the site's users. There is no added value, but this discussion is not on whether or not to be a monarchy, it is on whether or not Prince Sebastian (me) should replace King Dimitri and give Lovia an active monarch again. Ler's keep the discussions seperate. Now Topaz if you'd like to change your vote I'd be most obliged. See, once I start acting as King and you dislike my performance you can always hold yet another referendum and have me ousted and the monarchy abolished. It's quite simple. Now all I'm asking, and I believe this to be perfectly reasonable, is for you to give me a chance to prove myself. For actions speak louder then words ever could. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 06:35, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * My opposition is more to Oos's handling of the situation (ignoring one of the referendums) than to the concept of you as King per say. And anyway, weren't most of the actions you were planning to take just words (i.e. speeches and all that jazz), anyway? 77topaz (talk) 06:57, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand your objections, and considering that I'm thinking of writing up an act to do with this situation. Also yes the actions of TMV as Monarch were mainly due to be speeches and simple actions really, just making the Monarchy likeable for the whole of Lovia again as well as making it active which I dare say would be a boon to Lovia both IC and OOC, boosting the activity of the wikia. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 08:14, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, also, by electing you, aren't we making you more of a president than a king anyway? 77topaz (talk) 06:59, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * If your opposition is not to me being a King then change your vote into a yes as right now, you are voting against me being a king and not against Oos. He already is Oceana's Heretow after all. And yes I would hold speeches but I'll also represent Lovia at sports events and weddings and the like, and promote the image of our nation abroad in other wikinations. And I am not being elected, I am simply taking over from a monarch unable and unwilling to perform his royal duties. That does not make me a president. This vote is simply on whether or not the people support me taking over. If you support me taking over from Dimitri then vote on that. The monarchy versus republic discussion is a whole different ballgame despite some people who would like it to be handled as one issue. The vote's up now, my cards are on the table. If you do not oppose me being Dimitri's replacement, then vote and make it so. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 07:07, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Topaz: Not really, we're more of making the Monarchy Elective and in many ways by doing that we're democratising the position and making it responsible and answerable to the Lovian people via Congress. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 08:14, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Weren't we intending to make this a referendum of the Lovian citizens (instead of a Congress vote) anyway? Isn't that why the Referendum Act was created? 77topaz (talk) 08:20, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * We shall make a referendum on whether to keep the Monarchy HOWEVER I believe this should happen after we are able to experience what it is like with an actually active Monarchy that contributes to the nation and gives us real leadership. This trial period should be a good time, around 6 months, so that we can really experience it, after this time we should call a referendum and decide whether we want to keep the new and improved Monarchy. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 08:44, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Wasn't this meant to be part of a referendum as well, though (whether to replace Dimi or not). Also, wouldn't a Congress vote like this require some sort of IC reason for the Congress to abdicate Dimitri (as an IC abdication of Dimitri would require a different vote - who to replace him with (the line of succession problems around Alexander etc. might connect to that)). 77topaz (talk) 08:51, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well IC, the argument could be that he's unpopular, caused various revolts in co-operation with unpopular governments and is rarely seen. Also this isn't an abdication but rather an impeachment and so the line of succession does not apply. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 09:38, August 14, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, this is too much to read for me :P If anything interesting has been said in this discussion, you guys know where to find my talk page. Otherwise, this is a 50%. Why? For the simple reason it is not unconstitutional and the ew monarch fits what has been discribed in the constitution: So, we don't need a constitutional amendment and we're not doing anything illegal. Therefore, a 50% majority is enough. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:36, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1B1: descendant of the first Lovian monarch (yes); 1B1.1: either male of female (yes)
 * 1B2: absolute cognatic primogeniture (yes); 1B2.1.: requested that they be removed (case Alexander: could easily be fixed, family puts pressure on Alexander, he removes himself from line of succession)
 * 1B3-7: irrelevant

I think it is illegal, just because there is no provision saying the monarch can't be removed doesn't mean they can. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 14:29, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * The reverse could be said too: just because there is no provision sating the monarch can be removed, doesn't mean they can't. In this case, we can do it. If the law has no provision saying we can breathe, we still can (and should) :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:11, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * In this case the Monarch can completely be removed because Congress is the highest legislative power in the land with all powers (bar those that are devolved to the states) invested in it. And you of all people should know that if there is no provision against an action, the action is fully legal, such as the use of Marijuana in Lovia which is completely legal simply because it hasn't been made illegal. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 15:18, August 14, 2013 (UTC)

I think the Constitution is perfectly clear on the matter. :P The first clause states that 'the ruling monarch is the person who legally inherited the throne from the previous ruling monarch.' The second clause then clarifies on the meaning of 'legal inherited': the person who legally inherits the Lovian throne, after the previous ruling monarch has either deceased or abdicated, is the person who is the eldest child of the previous monarch. If the monarch had no children, the throne goes to the next oldest sibling, followed by younger siblings and cousins.' Therefore, there are two reasons why this proposal is unconstitutional (and therefore requires a 67% majority): So while this bill can pass, it has to have a 67% majority to overrule the constitutional problems. :) --Semyon 19:28, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) The previous monarch has to either die or abdicate. Congress is not given authority to depose the monarch.
 * 2) Even if Dimitri ceased to become king, for whatever reason, Alexander would automatically become king, unless he chose to remove himself from the LoS. Once again, Congress has no authority to remove him.
 * While I think this could be debated I do think that there needs to be better clarity in the Constitution. Although I think Semyon has actually made a point that I think I missed, although you only need a 67% majority to change constitutional law, which is not what is occurring, so technically a 51% majority would suffice as you aren't changing the law, although again I think this point could also be heavily debated, never the less I think that this debate about percentages needed will come to little meaning until after the referendum as I do not think this particular proposal will be passed. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 22:14, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * We are not bypassing the constitution when we simply say Prince Alexander, for whatever reasons he may have, chooses not to be in the Line of Succession anymore. Therefore Prince Sebastian automatically becomes the next of kin and therefore King. It is perfectly legal and not against the constitution in the slightest.
 * Another thing we should consider is this... we may oust Dimitri through the constitution. Say that his dwindling popularity cost him his throne. But what I suggest ages back in the Pub was that we simply write he steps down for personal reasons, and with his brother out of the picture the only logical choice remaining is his cousin Sebastian. See this vote not as a vote to "oust Dimitri", but rather as a vote on whether or not people agree with the agreed upon storyline. By doing so, and having this background story in the back of our heads as we go through this procedure, I think we can all agree on the fact that none of what are doing here is actively against the constitution. And all we do here is speed up a process, for reasons I consider to be perfectly reasonable. Dimitri will not be ousted. He will abdicate. And his brother gives up his claim to the throne. At which point Sebastian, as Semyon so kindly pointed out, legally inherits the throne. Why make it any harder on ourselves? Realism and logic can go hand in hand. Everybody wins. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 22:28, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * "Agreeing upon a storyline" would be an OOC discussion/vote, though, and isn't Congress an IC entity as well? :P 77topaz (talk) 08:01, August 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's why we've created the OOC referendum in the pub. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:49, August 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * The Referendum Act implies the creation of a "Forum:Referendum", and anonymous are never really reliable. :P 77topaz (talk) 09:14, August 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed, anyway, the referendum is not anonymous.. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:52, August 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, okay, that was created after the earlier discussions. Should we not delay this vote then, until after that referendum? 77topaz (talk) 08:44, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Depends. If this vote has a positive outcome, we can keep it. If it has a negative one, then we have to create a new vote and see if we really have a democratic government listening to the will of the people. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:55, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * By "positive" and "negative", I presume you mean "similar to the referendum" and "not similar to the referendum"? :P 77topaz (talk) 09:00, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Eh... I mean positive=referendum is pro :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:06, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * We can't really know the result of this vote, nor the referendum, yet, so wouldn't it be more sensible to say whether the two results would be alike or not? 77topaz (talk) 09:23, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Eh.. I don't really understand that though :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:38, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

020. Update NSO

 * The current exisiting cities are:
 * Noble City
 * The recognized neighborhoods of Noble City are:
 * Artista
 * Bayside
 * Citizen Corner
 * Downtown
 * Industrial Park
 * King's Gardens
 * Little Europe
 * Little Frisco
 * Long Road
 * Mandarin Village
 * New Town
 * Old Harbor
 * The Mall
 * Trading Quarter
 * Transcity
 * Newhaven
 * The recognized neighborhoods of Newhaven are:
 * Abby Springs
 * East River
 * Malipa
 * Newhaven Downtown
 * Old Port
 * Pines
 * Hurbanova
 * The recognized neighborhoods of Hurbanova are:
 * Drake Town
 * Hurbanova Downtown
 * Millstreet
 * Newport-Neighborhood
 * Overbanken-Neighborhood
 * Sofasi
 * The recognized nieghborhoods of Sofasi are:
 * Hightech Valley
 * Intercity
 * Milerose
 * Sofasi Downtown
 * The current existing Towns are:
 * East Hills
 * Kinley
 * The recognized neighborhoods of Kinley are:
 * Amish Kinley (also recognized as a dependent Local Religious Community)
 * Canterbury
 * Old Kinley
 * St Stephens
 * Novosevensk
 * Portland
 * The recognized neighborhoods of Portland are:
 * Bayfield
 * Hurket-on-Kings
 * Train Village
 * The recognized nieghborhoods of Train Village are:
 * Nicholasville
 * Train Village Downtown
 * The current existing Villages are:
 * Abington
 * Adoha
 * The recognized neighborhoods of Adoha are:
 * Adoha Downtown
 * Ferguson Beach Village
 * Beaverwick
 * Charleston
 * Clave Rock
 * Cornwall
 * Dien Village
 * Nordhorn
 * Oostermond
 * Plains
 * Pool
 * Righow
 * Westmark
 * The current existing Hamlets are:
 * Albany
 * Bardeyow
 * Bergdorf
 * Beswijk
 * Boborbrod
 * Boshem
 * Boynitz
 * Brunswick
 * Burguestour
 * Burke's Dam
 * Bytack
 * Carlhaven
 * Centreville
 * Clinton
 * Coal Town
 * Cold Hill
 * Douglas
 * Dubnitz
 * Easthope
 * Eastwood
 * Estarois
 * Feltmolen
 * Fort Johnson
 * Freetown
 * Glesga
 * Grensville
 * Hamfield
 * Hawke's Wood
 * Headland Lakes
 * Heighnow
 * Hewlett
 * Hierland
 * Jason's Ranch
 * Karlhaven
 * Kirkgate
 * Koningsdorp
 * Kustwijk
 * Lemburg
 * Lisney
 * Long Brook
 * Magna Augusta
 * Manchester
 * Martenray
 * Merrimack
 * Milton
 * Neale Downs
 * Newcastle
 * Newmouth
 * New Aberdeen
 * Newport-Forest
 * Neuberg
 * Nordendort
 * Nóngyè
 * Oostdorp
 * Orwnitz
 * Overbanken-Forest
 * Pierresville
 * Rosendorp
 * Rosswood
 * Rybachye
 * Scotland
 * Severnybana
 * Shepby
 * Skelington
 * Slowane
 * Smithston
 * Stanley
 * Steenveld
 * Sternaw
 * Sunderland
 * Thameen
 * Timber Harbor
 * Topolcane
 * Tshadsa
 * Tyrstead
 * Verland
 * Vrabelvrutke
 * Westen-Holm
 * Westwall
 * Willard
 * Xiandu

We need a 50% majority. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:53, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Pro

 * 14 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:53, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1 vote Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 18:19, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes - seeming as this would make the list easier to update - Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 18:59, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:30, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:47, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. Okay, the list looks to be up to date now. 77topaz (talk) 03:45, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. Bart K (talk) 14:25, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Contra

 * 8 votes - missing a bunch of Sylvanian hamlets. Maybe I'll add them later if someone else doesn't. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 19:36, August 21, 2013 (UTC) Added them.

Abstain

 * 4 votes. There are a number of issues, as I've outlined in the First Chamber, below, etc. If these are fixed, I'll vote pro. 77topaz (talk) 20:17, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
This list isn't up to date. And isn't Windthorn the old name for Nordhorn? 77topaz (talk) 19:57, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Yes. It's been fixed. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 22:47, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Okay :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:13, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

We need to encourage people to vote here! Multiple major users, including Semyon, Horton and Marcus, haven't voted here yet! With their support, we could easily pass this (it's at 42 votes pro now, right?). 77topaz (talk) 08:59, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll inform MartijnM. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:06, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

021. Amendment to judicial elections

 * 1) The term of each Supreme Court Judge lasts for six months one year, or shorter, if they resign due to personal reasons or a conflict of interests, or if the Judges declare their inability to judge the case.

Also I propose that if this law is passed, then that indicates the current Judges can stay in their posts, since no-one seems particularly interested in replacing them. If you have a major objection, mention it/vote contra. :) --Semyon 18:44, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Pro

 * 5 votes --Semyon 18:44, September 5, 2013 (UTC) 5 votes
 * 14 --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:45, September 5, 2013 (UTC) huge objection though :P
 * 4 votes Wabba The I (talk) 18:47, September 5, 2013 (UTC) 4 votes
 * 4 votes. 77topaz (talk) 20:18, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 Votes (Hey this was my law change :P) Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:07, September 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 01:41, September 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8 votes HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:03, September 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1 vote Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 16:08, September 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:27, September 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 15:18, September 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Bart K (talk) 14:24, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 20:18, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
This needs 66 votes, because its the Constitution. So 13 more needed. Someone wake up your fellow inactives :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:06, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Damn it! If only I had more votes in the chamber :P Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 15:16, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Correction: it needs 67 votes. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:24, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

✅ I wonder if this even needs to be called an amendment? We can just call it a "minor fix" è. x) —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 00:19, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it's an amendment :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:38, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * I propose the compromise of 'minor amendment.' :P --Semyon 09:33, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * :P I guess I can agree with that :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:38, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Or "minor, fixing amendment". That way, TM will have his entire name "minor fix" in it as well :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:39, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds too silly. I think we'll have to find a compromise between your compromise and my compromise. :o --Semyon 12:24, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Minor fix amendment? :o --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:28, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds ok to me. :P --Semyon 12:39, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:43, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Minor amendment is fine. :P —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:57, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay :o We dancing with colons now? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:15, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Time's gotten addicted to colons very recently :P 4kant,6FRÅGOR??? 13:34, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * He got the virus :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:14, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

022. Education reform
Alright, nothing's happened to it for a week now, so let's propose this thing. The illegalities section - if written - may be added later.

50+%


 * Article 6 - Primary Education Act
 * Primary education is the educating of children in a school or privately, by qualified teachers, in order to provide them with the apt knowledge and skills to go to secondary education.
 * Primary education is provided in primary or elementary schools, unless the child is taught privately.
 * Primary schools can be operated privately, that is by an individual or an organization, or publicly, that is by a neighborhood, hamlet, town, city, state or by the federal state.
 * Primary schools have to appoint teachers that are qualified to teach the subjects they are asked to teach.
 * All primary school teachers must have obtained a single Lovian Certificate of Education Level 2 or above or a Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education Level 2 or above.
 * Primary schools can turn down pupils only in special cases, these being the inability to provide education to a pupil with a particular problem, the inability to properly provide education for a pupil due to a lack of resources or if a pupil has proven to be unable to behave according to previous schools '  regulations. In no other cases, pupils shall be denied access without consultation with the Ministry of Education.
 * Primary schools provide general and basic education to a child. All subjects taught must be Lovian Certificates of Education and may not be Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education.
 * These subjects should be taught at least three hours per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * English (level 1)
 * Mathematics (level 1)
 * Arts and Crafts (level 1)
 * These subjects should be taught at least two hours per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * Physical Education (level 1)
 * Social Education (level 1)
 * The school must also choose a level 1 language subject to provide other than English that must be taught at least two hours a week, from a list which the State Government will provide.
 * These subjects should be taught at least one hour per week, during the six years of primary education:
 * History (level 1)
 * Geography (level 1)
 * Science (level 1)
 * Computing (level 1)
 * Primary schools may also provide more languages than the two mandatory subjects to pupils. The specific additional languages a pupil is taught however will be selected by the pupil themselves from the list of additional languages the school provides beyond the two mandatory language subjects.
 * Primary schools are free to choose to provide more classes of any of these subjects, or to provide other level 1 subjects considered valuable, in order to provide a minimum of twenty-two hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Primary schools may provide more classes beyond the twenty-two hour minimum but none beyond the maximum of thirty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * There shall be no doctrinal classes in primary schools.
 * In a course called 'Religions of the world', children may be taught about religions. If the school wishes to teach this subject, all major religions should be brought to attention, as well as a non-religious attitude.
 * Primary schools and their teachers may not try to convince children of a certain religious or political point of view, nor can they make any pupil exercise a religious act, unless the pupil and/or the parents agree with taking doctrinal classes.
 * These rules apply for the arrangement of the timetable:
 * A break of at least 10 minutes is compulsory between every two hours; more often is allowed.
 * There shall be no classes on Sunday.
 * There shall be no classes between 7 PM and 7 AM.
 * There must be a lunch break every day, of at least an hour, between noon and 2 PM.
 * Private education, by a qualified teacher, can be provided. In this case, the same rules apply.
 * Every child residing in Lovia has to receive six years of primary education, beginning in the schoolyear during which the child will reach the age of 6 years.
 * Only if a qualified psychologist and the pupil's teacher find it appropriate for the pupil to skip a schoolyear and continue education with older pupils, and if the parents agree on this, the pupil may skip a schoolyear.
 * Every pupil has to receive primary education until the schoolyear during which the pupil will reach the age of 12, except in the case mentioned above.
 * In case a primary school does not provide the kind of education described in this article, the Minister of Education or the Royal Educational Aims Council can decide to shut down the school until the service provided does qualify. In the meantime, the Ministry of Education must provide education to the pupils of that school, by allowing them instant pro-tempore access to another school.
 * The Royal Educational Aims Council is a council under the Ministry of Education, consisting of three educational specialists who decide on the secondary education curriculum, and who can close a school (of any level) if it does not qualify with the requirements.
 * The following three persons are members of the council: the Minister of Education, the Prime Minister, and the Minister of Labour as the pupils' and students' welfare watchdog.
 * The Rector of Blackburn University is added to the council as its fourth member only when the council is looking into a matter directly concerned with the higher educational system.
 * States are allowed to create legislation concerning special needs and religious education, and education in another language (special education).
 * The same rules apply to special education as to regular institutions.
 * Regular education must always remain available to pupils.
 * All settlements with more than 5,000 inhabitants must have at least one regular primary school.
 * A state must always have at least one regular primary school.
 * All primary schools within Lovia are funded by a School Voucher system.
 * A School Voucher system operates via a system of grants from the Ministry of Education to a parent for each child they have at the age of primary education to pay for their child's tuition within Lovia.
 * Parents are granted an amount towards each child's education, this grant is not given to the parents instead the Ministry of Education must create documents that shall be used to register where their child is currently receiving tuition so that the grant may be given directly to their child's school.
 * The current grant per child is L$11,000.
 * These documents must be simple, easy to understand and must not be misleading, there must also be a way to trace who filled in the documents.
 * To obtain the grant, at least one parent must be a Lovian citizen.
 * Parents wealthy enough to make tuition provisions for their child without state assistance should do so.
 * Parents earning over L$100,000 collectively will only be entitled to half of the grant.
 * Parents earning over L$250,000 collectively will not be entitled to any of the grant.
 * Primary schools may not charge a tuition that is higher than the grant.
 * Primary schools must register certain details in a primary school register.
 * A primary school must register:
 * Their name.
 * The address of the school.
 * The number of pupils they are currently teaching a primary education to.
 * The number of teachers they are currently employing to teach primary education.
 * The tuition fee the school is charging per child in primary education.
 * The date of registration.
 * These registers are managed on a state by state basis by the relevant state government.
 * Further details may be requested by the state government.
 * The details must be renewed every half-year since the date of registration.
 * If they are not renewed then the school shall be given a weeks grace period to fill in the details along with a notification from the state government, if it fails to renew details after the grace period then it is no longer considered able to provide education to students and must be shut down until it renews the details. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide education to the students of that school.
 * Only primary schools that are registered in the primary school register may be considered primary schools by law.


 * Article 7 - Secondary Education Act
 * Secondary education is the educating of adolescents in a school or privately, by qualified teachers, in order to provide them with the apt knowledge and skills to lead a life in a modern society and in order to be able to continue studying in university or take on an apprenticeship.
 * After having completed the schoolyear of their 16th birthday a child may choose to not continue ordinary school and instead pursue an apprenticeship, should they secure an apprenticeship then they may continue their education under their employer as an apprentice, if they at any point lose their apprenticeship they must at the soonest possible date rejoin a school.
 * Secondary education is provided in high schools or secondary schools, unless the adolescent is taught privately.
 * Secondary schools can be operated privately, that is by an individual or an organization, or publicly, that is by a neighborhood, hamlet, town, city, state or by the federal state.
 * Secondary schools have to appoint teachers that are qualified to teach the subjects they are asked to teach.
 * All secondary school teachers must have obtained a single Lovian Certificate of Education Level 4 or above or a Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education Level 4 or above.
 * Secondary schools can turn down pupils only in special cases, these being the inability to provide education to a pupil with a particular problem, the inability to properly provide education for a pupil due to a lack of resources or if a pupil has proven to be unable to behave according to previous schools '  regulations. In no other cases, pupils shall be denied access without consultation with the Ministry of Education.
 * Secondary schools provide two tiers of education, one to a child from the age of 12 until 16 and another to a child of the ages of 17 and 18 should the child choose to continue in school:
 * Secondary schools provide a general education to a child up until the age of 16. All subjects taught must be Lovian Certificates of Education and may not be Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education.
 * These subjects should be taught at least four hours per week, during the first four years of secondary education:
 * Mathematics (level 2)
 * These subjects should be taught at least two hours per week, during the first four years of secondary education:
 * English (level 2)
 * Literature (level 2)
 * Art (level 2)
 * Physical Education (level 2)
 * Social Education (level 2)
 * Technology (level 2)
 * Science (level 2)
 * The school must also choose a level 2 language subject to provide other than English that must be taught at least two hours a week, from a list which the State Government will provide.
 * These subjects should be taught at least one hour per week, during the first four years of secondary education:
 * History (level 2)
 * Geography (level 2)
 * Computing (level 2)
 * Secondary schools may also provide more languages than the two mandatory subjects to pupils between the ages of 12 and 16. The specific additional languages a pupil is taught however will be selected by the pupil themselves from the list of additional languages the school provides beyond the two mandatory language subjects.
 * Secondary schools are free to choose to provide more classes of any of these subjects, or to provide other level 2 subjects considered valuable, in order to provide a minimum of thirty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Secondary schools may provide more classes beyond the thirty hour minimum but none beyond the maximum of forty hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * Secondary schools provide an advanced education to a child of the age of 17 and 18. All subjects taught must be Lovian Certificates of Education and may not be Supplementary Lovian Certificate of Education.
 * These subjects should be taught at least five hours per week, during the last two years of secondary education:
 * English (level 3)
 * Mathematics (level 3)
 * The school must also choose a level 3 language subject to provide other than English that must be taught at least five hours a week, from a list which the State Government will provide.
 * Secondary schools must provide a wide selection of level 3 subjects for pupils to choose from to study. Pupils may choose to study a minimum of three extra subjects to study to bring their total time within school to 30 hours of class, every week of the schoolyear. Pupils may choose to study two more subjects beyond the thirty hour minimum, bringing their total time within school to 40 hours of class, every week of the schoolyear.
 * Each additional subject a pupil chooses to study must be taught for five hours each week.
 * Doctrinal classes may be provided in secondary schools by the school itself, if wished.
 * There shall be no more than one hour of doctrinal class per week.
 * The content of doctrinal classes, in which the teacher teaches a particular religious or political world view, can be chosen by the school and teacher.
 * There shall be no doctrinal classes about extremist views; that is: no far-right, far-left, extremist religious, violent or extreme nationalist views can be taught. If needed, the Royal Educational Aims Council and the Minister of Education can dismiss a doctrinal course.
 * A student is allowed not to follow a doctrinal course provided by a secondary school, if he or she does not want to take this course. In order to skip these classes, the student has to notify the school direction and stay on school property during the courses.
 * A course called 'Religions of the world', or any course similar to it, is not considered a doctrinal course.
 * No tests and exams shall be taken for these courses.
 * These rules apply for the arrangement of the timetable:
 * A break of at least 10 minutes is compulsory between every two hours; more often is allowed.
 * There shall be no classes on Sunday.
 * There shall be no classes between 7 PM and 7 AM.
 * There must be a lunch break every day, of at least an hour, between noon and 2 PM.
 * Private education, by a qualified teacher, can be provided. In this case, the same rules apply.
 * Every child residing in Lovia has to receive at least four years of secondary education, beginning in the schoolyear after which the adolescent has finished his primary education successfully. Additionally should a child not be employed as an apprentice, they must continue to receive education until they have completed the educational year in which they are 18.
 * Only if a qualified psychologist and the student's teacher find it appropriate for the student to skip a schoolyear and continue education with older students, and if the parents agree on this, the student may skip a schoolyear.
 * Secondary schools that do not provide the kind of education described in this article, the Minister of Education or the Royal Educational Aims Council can decide to shut down the school until the service provided do qualify. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide education to the students of that school.
 * States are allowed to create legislation concerning special needs and religious education, and education in another language (special education).
 * The same rules apply to special education as to regular institutions.
 * Regular education must always remain available to pupils.
 * All settlements with more than 10,000 inhabitants must have at least one regular secondary school.
 * A state must always have at least one regular secondary school.
 * All secondary schools within Lovia are funded by a School Voucher system.
 * A School Voucher system operates via a system of grants from the Ministry of Education to a parent for each child they have at the age of secondary education to pay for their child's tuition within Lovia.
 * Parents are granted an amount towards each child's education, this grant is not given to the parents instead the Ministry of Education must create documents that shall be used to register where their child is currently receiving tuition so that the grant may be given directly to their child's school.
 * The current grant per child is L$15,000.
 * These documents must be simple, easy to understand and must not be misleading, there must also be a way to trace who filled in the documents.
 * To obtain the grant, at least one parent must be a Lovian citizen.
 * Parents wealthy enough to make tuition provisions for their child without state assistance should do so.
 * Parents earning over L$100,000 collectively will only be entitled to half of the grant.
 * Parents earning over L$250,000 collectively will not be entitled to any of the grant.
 * Secondary schools may not charge a tuition that is higher than the grant.
 * Secondary schools must register certain details in a secondary school register.
 * A secondary school must register:
 * Their name.
 * The address of the school.
 * The number of pupils they are currently teaching a secondary education to.
 * The number of teachers they are currently employing to teach secondary education.
 * The tuition fee the school is charging per child in secondary education.
 * The date of registration.
 * These registers are managed on a state by state basis by the relevant state government.
 * Further details may be requested by the state government.
 * The details must be renewed every half-year since the date of registration.
 * If they are not renewed then the school shall be given a weeks grace period to fill in the details along with a notification from the state government, if it fails to renew details after the grace period then it is no longer considered able to provide education to students and must be shut down until it renews the details. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide education to the students of that school.
 * Only secondary schools that are registered in the secondary school register may be considered secondary schools by law.


 * Article 12 - Educational Boards Act
 * An educational board is a registered organisation that creates curriculum's for schools and is responsible for the testing, examination and marking of the students learning their curriculum's and then the distribution of the results. They are also granted the power to award Lovian Certificates of Education (LCE) and Supplimentary Lovian Certificates of Education (SLCE) to students.
 * Educational boards may award LCE's and SLCE's to students with an assigned grade attached to the certificate.
 * A Lovian Certificate of Education is a full course in a subject, ensuring that the student learning the curriculum related to the LCE understands the full knowledge of the subject over the full time of the educational level it is at.
 * Grades assigned to LCE's are related to the percentage achieved in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * Pass grades are as follows:
 * A*, which is awarded should a student get 95% or above in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * A, which is awarded should a student get 90% or above and below 95% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * B, which is awarded should a student get 80% or above and below 90% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * C, which is awarded should a student get 70% or above and below 80% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * D, which is awarded should a student get 60% or above and below 70% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * E, which is awarded should a student get 50% or above and below 60% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * Fail grades are as follows:
 * F, which is awarded should a student get 40% or above and below 50% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * U, which is awarded should a student get below 40% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * When a student fails they receive a letter with their fail grade and their percentage achieved in various exams and tests in order to help them understand and improve for the future rather than an LCE.
 * A Supplimentary Lovian Certificate of Education is a short course in a subject, ensuring that the student learning the curriculum related to the SLCE understands the basic and general knowledge of the subject but does so over a quarter of the time of the full course.
 * Grades assigned to SLCE's are related to the percentage achieved.
 * Pass grades are as follows:
 * A*, which is awarded should a student get 97.5% or above in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * A, which is awarded should a student get 95% or above and below 97.5% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * B, which is awarded should a student get 90% or above and below 95% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * C, which is awarded should a student get 85% or above and below 90% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * D, which is awarded should a student get 80% or above and below 85% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * E, which is awarded should a student get 75% or above and below 80% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * Fail grades are as follows:
 * F, which is awarded should a student get 70% or above and below 85% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * U, which is awarded should a student get below 70% in the combined tests, examinations or coursework of the subject.
 * When a student fails they receive a letter with their fail grade and their percentage achieved in various exams and tests in order to help them understand and improve for the future rather than an SLCE.
 * Subjects will be provided at various levels by Educational Boards. Subjects can either be defined by law or by certain governmental institutions.
 * Level 1 subjects are aimed at giving a wide and basic education, in cases where the subject is applicable to needing to teach using resources that might concern the state, nation and world, examples and resources concerning all three of these should be used. These are aimed to be taught in primary school by a person with at least a level 2 qualification to children aged 6-12, over the course of 6 years.
 * Level 2 subjects are aimed at giving a general and advanced education, in cases where the subject is applicable to needing to teach using resources that might concern the state, nation and world, examples and resources concerning only two or all three should be used. These are aimed to be taught in secondary school by a person with at least a level 4 qualification to adolescents aged 12-16, over the course of 4 years.
 * Level 3 subjects are aimed at giving a focused and advanced education, in cases where the subject is applicable to needing to teach using resources that might concern the state, nation and world, examples and resources concerning only one, two or all three may be used. These are aimed to be taught in secondary school by a person with at least a level 4 qualification to adolescents aged 16-18, over the course of 2 years.
 * Level 4 subjects are aimed at giving a highly focused and advanced education, the aim of this education should be to prepare the student for a career in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 5 qualification to adults aged 18-21, over the course of 3 years.
 * Level 5 subjects are aimed at building on a persons focused and advanced education, the aim of this education should be to advance the students knowledge further in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 6 qualification to adults aged 21 and over.
 * Level 6 subjects are aimed at further building on a persons focused and advanced education, the aim of this education should be to advance the students knowledge further in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 7 qualification to adults aged 21 and over.
 * Level 7 subjects are aimed at building on a persons focused and advanced education at an experimental level, the aim of this education should be to advance the students knowledge further in the subject they are taking. These are aimed to be taught in university by a person with at least a level 7 qualification to adults aged 21 and over.
 * Subjects that educational boards may provide at specific levels are any of those defined in law and those recognised by state governments on a state by state basis with the advice of the Ministry of Education.
 * Additionally the Ministry of Education may recognise subjects nationally with advice from Congress.
 * Educational boards must provide tests, examinations or coursework or a combination of those for students to complete as part of a subject to act as proof that they understand the full knowledge of the subject.
 * Educational boards may not refuse to provide a tutor, school or university access to a subject unless it does not have the proper resources to administrate the subject.
 * Educational boards may charge no more than a certain amount of Lovian Dollars per student per subject and must charge the same rate for all subjects it provides on the same level.
 * Educational boards may charge up to L$50 for level 1 subjects.
 * Educational boards may charge up to L$60 for level 2 subjects.
 * Educational boards may charge up to L$125 for level 3 subjects.
 * Educational boards may charge up to L$750 for level 4-7 subjects.
 * Educational boards must register certain details in an educational board register.
 * An educational board must register:
 * Their name.
 * The address of the educational board.
 * The number of courses they are currently offering.
 * The number of schools using the subjects they are offering.
 * The fee the educational board is charging per student per subject at each level.
 * The date of registration.
 * These registers are managed on a state by state basis by the relevant state government.
 * Further details may be requested by the state government.
 * The details must be renewed every half-year since the date of registration.
 * If they are not renewed then the educational board shall be given a weeks grace period to fill in the details along with a notification from the state government, if it fails to renew details after the grace period then it is no longer considered able to provide courses and correct administration of said courses it may be shut down until it renews the details. In the meanwhile the Ministry of Education must provide support to the schools using courses from the educational board that has been shut down.
 * Only Educational boards that are registered in the educational board register may be considered educational boards by law.

Pro

 * 14 votes. --O u WTB 03:16, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:12, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes Wabba The I (talk) 14:15, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * But I have some questions and facts. I think three hours arts and crafts in the primary education is too much. Two is enough. Wabba The I (talk) 14:15, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * It includes music as well. I'd say it's very important. Research has shown that arts and crafts is very good for brain development at an early age :) --O u WTB 14:20, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1 vote Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 15:49, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes. Overall, this seems okay. 77topaz (talk) 02:04, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4 votes - tl;dr Seems pretty good to me. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:33, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 votes — <font color=#2E6FFD>Christopher Costello (<font color=#2E6FFD>Pikapi • <font color=#2E6FFD>Chat  • <font color=#2E6FFD>What's up ) 21:19, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

Contra

 * 8 votes - too much parental choice, vouchers (ok in general but i've come out against the too high amount of parental choice it gives), religious education, boards need more info on what they do, etc. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 21:20, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * there's plenty of information on what boards do, their role isn't complex. They create the course for a subject, supply that to schools and then provide the testing for the subject, verify the results of the tests and supply that to students, simple as. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 07:15, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, that makes a lot more sense now. Perhaps too much legalese? Also, are there Ministry of Education-ran boards? —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:46, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Probably. There's no restriction against it, you can just set one up and go ahead that way. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 21:39, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

Abstain

 * - Remove the unfinished apprenticeships act and we'll get that passed later - Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 08:19, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Additionally I need to finish off the educational boards act, I can do that early today. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 08:47, September 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * Wanna vote pro now? :o --O u WTB 13:21, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. :) Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:11, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Good :P --O u WTB 14:12, September 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * - I would rather the voucher system be removed and replaced through a mix of tax and government funding. No person should have to pay upfront for their education, unless it is for private schooling. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:08, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Horton, you do not seem to understand the voucher system. It is basically exactly what you say. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:10, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed :) --O u WTB 14:12, September 16, 2013 (UTC)

Also it's not immoral to charge immigrants who want to come to Lovia for schooling, it's so easy to get Lovian citizenship that the argument you state is redundant. On your thoughts on exam grades, what you suggest is a false economy, as under your proposal an A grade from one year is worth a different amount to another year, and students who do well may be pushed down grades under your system just because other students did well too, there is no continuity or stability in the system you suggest. Additionally defining the grade boundaries is not nonsensical, we're recognising the validity of the gradings as a government and the grade boundaries are not silly especially as the one you reference is for a supplementary course which requires that it be ensured that someone has actually learned and understood what they've learned more than a standard course as it is shorter and in slightly less detail because of that. Concerning flexibility, there is plenty of fexibility, educational boards decide everything on how things are tested however we simply give a standard by which the worth of a LCE may be judged, an A (90%) means that a student has an almost perfect comprehension of the subject whereas a C (70%) shows a comprehension of a majority of the subject. This stability and continuity and lack of random flux is useful for both employers and universities. And I do not think we should have one board, that would limit user creativity and cause problems by centralising power far to much to a single individual who may simply leave the whole thing inactive and undone, which has happened under so many centralised systems before. And supplement in this means to supplement a deficiency as the LSCE is supposed to be used to supply urgent areas of need rather than to be used as a basic education in a course. And I don't quite understand what you mean on the long hours or apprenticeships, if you decided to stay in an academic education you should be prepared to put the effort in to learn and I don't know quite what you mean about apprenticeships, they aren't there for people who cannot handle academic education, they are there to supply a practical way into the workforce while also receiving the basic education. Hoffmann Kunarian TALK 13:20, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * (5 votes) In general I appreciate the attempt to improve the detail of the law, but I have some reservations which prevent me voting pro. I'm rather uneasy about the voucher system, but I can live with it. However, I don't agree with parents having to pay for their children's education if their incomes are over a certain amount. $50000 dollars is practically nothing - it's about £14000 per parent which is a very low income in Britain, let alone Lovia, and if the parents have multiple children they won't be able to afford to eat. It's also immoral to charge immigrants for schooling. These people are likely to be poorer than average and if they pay taxes then they deserve to receive government money. The Educational Boards Act also concerns me. It's too close to the British system (i.e. screwed up, particularly the two fail grades) for my liking, and it's unnecessary for the government to specify grade boundaries (they're also pretty silly: 97.5% for the top grade?) in the law (!), and such inflexibility is a real pain for exam boards that have to produce a paper of identical difficulty year after year. A better system, if anything, would be to specify that 5% of students receive the top grade, 10% the next, etc. I personally think that one educational board would be enough for such a small country as Lovia, or the schools could set their own exams and have them moderated by an external body to ensure fairness (I believe something similar to the latter occurs in Germany). There are also some spelling and grammatical errors which I'll look at this evening, particularly 'supplimentary' - I actually have an issue with the word as it implies extension to the core material, which is the opposite of the intended meaning. Finally, I object to the long class hours for Level 3 students. At this stage in their education independent education should be heavily emphasised, and if students aren't able to cope with that they should have chosen the apprenticeship option. --Semyon 11:53, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Semyon, you are wrong on the income but I understand your concerns there, L$50,000 is actually roughly equal to £28,000 so asking parents who would be earning (in pounds here) £56,000 collectively, which I'm sure you know, even collectively that's a lot of money each and that's only to half the grant, not to take it away.
 * Kunarian, I think you might not have read what I wrote very carefully. It strikes me that much of what you've written is intended to advance your own proposal, instead of and sometimes at the expense of pursuing the best legal solution. None of your defence alleviates my concerns, and some of the points you've misunderstood outright, though maybe something I wrote was unclear too. I didn't post in order to attack the law, but to point out a number of flaws that need to be corrected before Congress passes the bill. Of course, if you think a point-by-point rebuttal is still necessary, then I can provide one. :) --Semyon 14:07, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is needed, I think this may simply be a misunderstanding. Additionally I always believe that I must argue my side first so that we may root out things that are not real issues and then anything that is left we can deal with. If my responses did not alleviate your concerns, maybe we should move this discussion as not to block up the voting area and try again, maybe more clearly outlining where you find flaws and then we can see whether I can alleviate them and then if not then how can we address those (whether or not this actually passes). I think to be honest we need to see if people feel that this is worth passing, I certainly feel it is, then if it passes and people still feel there are flaws to address, then we can address them. If it fails to pass then we shall reform it there and attempt to pass it once more. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:16, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

I still don't think your grant idea is good enough. Education in Lovia should be tax funded, not by grants to parents. And with regards to higher-income families, they should not be forced to pay up front unless it is for private education. That they shouldn't pay more taxes isn't wrong, but both richer and less-rich people should have the same access to "free" public education without barriers. HORTON11 : •  14:23, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * That is what the grant in this case is, it is basically a tax funded ticket to education for the child. If you really feel higher earners should be given the grant then I am fine with that but pass this bill now and we can address concerns in further amendments that I will pro actively work for, and will work with you and semyon to do so. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:29, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well there shouldn't be a ticket then. People should be able to enrol in schools without one. Taxes should be used to directly fun the education system, not to go through. I also agree with Semyon on immigrant education, This is an inalienable right and they should have open access without having to worry about paying a lump sum. That doesn't mean that they'd study free, as all families in Lovia should be contributing via taxres to this. And one more thing, if we're working to pass a comprehensive education act, should we not do the same for healthcare and havve a publica tax-funded system? These two would go well hand-in-hand. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 14:36, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * You do not seem to understand the benefits of having a flexible funding system like this rather than a simple but flawed purely centralised government lump sum system. We can deal with the issue of immigrant education but that must be dealt with after a debate and consideration of options I feel. On healthcare we need to look at the issue but we've ended up devolving that power largely down to the states. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 14:39, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * The government won't give a lump sum. The system you're proposing is largely OK, but it does not need vouchers, coupons and added steps in the bureaucracy. Just a simple and direct form like you pay you taxes and x% goes toward education, which the ministry then hands down to states and schools. And also, if health has been devolved, why can't education be as well? HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:01, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * There is less bureaucracy in this system than any practical system you propose of direct government funding. And funding by a percentage of tax raised is a terrible idea! Education can be devolved, if we repeal the current legislation, otherwise it cannot. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 15:14, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Nah, the system proposed has its flaws and will create more bureaucracy issues as it is not a simple direct system. Funding by a percentage of tax raised is not a terrible idea! It's one of the better methods. Well presently education is highly devolved (states and schools able to set up curriculums) and this law would actually do the opposite. And if there is federal legislation on the matter, it seems to have no effect on decentralized efforts. While we should coordinate activities to set up a network of public schools across Lovia, states should be able to set up curriculums and take charge of the specifics to better suit their needs. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 15:25, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

I detailed my objections on a separate page, as Kunarian suggested. See here. :) --Semyon 15:20, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

Devolving education should be a low priority. I agree with Horton, it's much easier to do it directly and have public schools than have grants. And as I said, the grant system gives too much parental choice when it's the student's education. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:58, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Time in some ways despite my devolutionary tendencies on your first sentence only. And no, it's much easier on us to have a flexible system like the voucher system. Additionally Time you need to read the DHR and read the bit about parents and children and education. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 21:57, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I haven't read it, but I think I know what it says based on your position. Even so, I disagree. Parents should not have as much control over their children. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 02:40, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
@Kunarian: Just a small reminder, you've written pounds instead of dollars, don't worry it's the sort of thing I would do :P Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 15:47, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for notifying, updated to Lovian dollars now :) --O u WTB 17:12, September 16, 2013 (UTC)

Note to provoters: the current proposal is a breach of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. I'd like you to carefully consider some of my points about this bill, and if you agree with me, change your vote until these issues are fixed. --Semyon 15:22, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Corrected, he is referring to another part of law which I must now look at. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:15, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry everyone, I misread some numbers, as Kunarian pointed out. The law does still contradict the part of the UNDHR which states primary education must be free, though. --Semyon 16:26, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I support the bill as long as it ensures that every child in Lovia gets an equal, high quality education Frijoles333 / Marcel Cebara (talk) 16:28, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Semyon is right, although I don't think we signed the agreement, it'd be best to keep in line with it. We'll have to move this back to the first chamber. I must say though it is annoying that this was not discussed for the several weeks in which this proposal was being drafted. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 16:38, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd support that, or even better a complete rethink before proposing it. We should get as much ideas from Lovians possible before 1st chambering it. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 16:40, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that Kunarian. I'm aware that I'm less active in the Chambers than I should be. In my defence, I wasn't aware of that clause in the DHR. --Semyon 16:43, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

022. Repeal education act
Let's try this. Repealing the act will give way to the states to fill in education as they want. Congress can still excercise its right to repeal any state laws that are "undesired". We gotta face it, on a national level we're not coming out of this...

50+%

Pro

 * 14 votes. --O u WTB 06:10, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7 votes - however I think it would be better to quickly (before others vote) include a mandate for states to legislate for their own educational systems before a certain date, let's say some time in March so that even the less active states have time to do it and to make up for distraction by federal elections. Hoffmann LogoCNP2wt.png Kunarian TALK 07:20, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Contra

 * 8 votes - Keep it centralized. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 10:52, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 1. the law has not prevented states from having full control/say over the education (so see no need to repeal) and 2. We should keep a basic framework of education basics as a guideline for states to follow. HORTON11 : Email_icon.jpg • follow_me.PNG 13:23, September 20, 2013 (UTC)