Forum:Speakers' Corner

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Speakers' Corner regulations
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 * 1) All Lovians, regardless of their status or function, may, at any time, speak publicly at Speakers’ Corner.
 * 2) Speakers’ Corner may not be used to spread feelings of hatred against somebody or something. No bad shall be spoken of anybody without reasonable cause and only through decent language.
 * 3) Speakers’ Corner is a public space where all laws of the Kingdom of Lovia apply.
 * 4) Speakers’ Corner has the right to remove speakers from the park when the speaker is considered to be violating either the laws of the Kingdom of Lovia or the Speakers’ Corner regulations.
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Official Walden statement
It's been a turbulent week for Walden and Lovia.

Hannis, one of our long-time members and now a christian-conservative, wrote that Walden is in distress. And sure we are. Though the claims against our members have no legal basis, what happened is serious. I, as the party's chairwoman, have not been around last week. I acknowledge my responsibility in this crisis. I apologize to my dear Waldeners. I will try to regain your trust and support.

Walden is not dead. We have the best or one but best Congressial record. Since the 2010 Federals, we have a leading force in Congress. And at all times, we've been working hard to fulfill our goals - with success.

We will continue to do so. Walden must take a day or two to examine its faults (cause there have been faults), to correct them and to move on. Walden must be fresh again. Fresh and independent.

One of the things we learned from Bucu's revelations is that Lovian politics are still quite messy. People contacting people secretively to reach political and personal goals, is not something Walden supports. Another thing we learned is the importance and power of the media in such cases. Reading through the Quotidienne, we find many opinions, remarks and personal convictions. Steering our country in a way it should not go.

That's why Walden is picking up the pieces again. We're working on our image and our program, and within a month, Walden will be Lovia's everlasting flower again. We are happy these faults have been shown, we are eager to fix them, and we will be better off than if they had not been revealed.

If you have further questions concerning Walden's official position, just contact me Martha Van Ghent 13:42, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's the spirit! Walden has been the first party with an authentic story and was behind numerous great proposals. I'm confident Walden can remain strong without having to re-invent itself. 16:00, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Walden, I love thee!
 * and me too, I owe an apology for my absence. I'm having a terribly troublesome time at home, which is why i wasn't around. you can't imagine how "Lovia" becomes of secondary importance in your life at tough times.. 17:07, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

I think we're stronger in a sense, Hannis wouldn't have voted for Walden things anyway and We will get all four of our members elected anyway. Walden will be in power 2011. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 20:37, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

My bid for congress (Villanova)
Hello Lovia,
 * I will be running for re-election in 2011. Through all the controversey that in my case is behind us, thorugh me supporting the middle class, I will continue to fight for you. Here in the SQ where i've annouced alot of bids for political positions and capitalistic protests I promise to vote for you. I'm sorry to the people beacuase that's who i'm fighting for. The reason you elcected me in June this year is beacuse I love this country and you belived in me to do the best for you. I hope to contiue to fight for a green, better Lovia. Thank You and vote Walden in January! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 21:20, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Walden is now stronger then before. The rotten apples are out, what remains is four users with much potential. Pierius Magnus 21:47, December 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well put, thnx for soming it up, but you forgot the part where walden comes in and saves the day !Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 21:49, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

They came right in time. Had this crisis not happened you would still have to deal with Pierlot's antics. :) Pierius Magnus 21:55, December 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * True. At lest now the remaining members should be stronger and united. Horton11 22:21, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Totally. check the latest convo at the WEC to see that all of us can get elected now. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 22:29, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

The Natural Choice
2011: A fresh start, a fresh Walden!



Due to some certain events, Walden has lost some members and has had to change. But never fear, this is what we are about: Change! This new Walden has great potential. In the words of a fellow countryman, Ygo August Donia, "Walden is now stronger then before". And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the truth! Though we are only four, we will come out stronger, we shall stride higher and we WILL OVERCOME all of our troubles!

As you are aware, elections are soon coming up (if not, well surprise). Many parties are competing, but there is only ONE choice, a natural choice! And that choice is Walden, the Greenest, greatest and grandest of them. When the time comes, you will be asked to vote. When the time comes, we hope YOU vote WALDEN!!!!!!!!

signed, Horton11 00:04, December 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * One word: voluntarism. Though I do think Walden can move forward.  15:38, December 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Good, Justin!! Martha Van Ghent 07:44, December 4, 2010 (UTC)

Speech for Walden
Hello fellow Lovians, I want to stand here today saying that this January a vote for CCPL means that somone will be diprived of a simple right and a vote for rascism in which some of there ads included ﻿Geert Wilders a member of the anti-islamic, rasicist, Dutch Nationalist party: the Party for Freedom. And with near-Capitalist views are a threat to middle class families everywear. Next is the Liberal Union which are Capitalists but are socialy liberal but are very unactive, a vote for them means a slow congress that the people don't want. If you vote, vote Walden or CPL.nm we will fight for a active, better congress which will have laws that help the people and Lovia. We have worked to propose, Gay Marraige, A Progessive tax system, and Universal Health care along with a 14.00$ minmum wage. Remeber This January vote Walden!!! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 18:22, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, vote Walden. And if you don't, it doesn't matter: they'll just stage a coup! Pierius Magnus 18:34, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Way to change the subject ! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 18:42, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Poor argument indeed. Btw: Pierlot left the party. The Walden leaders have no history of vandalism or so. UNLIKE PIERIUS HIMSELF (cough cough). 18:47, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's about as stupid as you comparing our party with the PVV. Wilders is an atheist and, considered by many, to be a racist. I for one doubt he is a genuine racist better call him: "someone who generalises ethnic groups", which isn't as severe. Our party is nothing like his: we are not in any way racists or bigots, and we are not atheists. The fact that OWTB once jokingly used Geertje's image in a poster does not make us a Lovian PVV-fraction, that's a ridiculous thing to say. Pierius Magnus 18:50, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Dimitri, you call that a poor argument? It is. So is calling the CCPL and its members racists and bigots and comparing us to the PVV. And I do not have a history of vandalism (not here, at least) - as in, emptying pages, deleting other peoples contributions (the way Pierlot did). That's just a load of bullocks, Your Highness, and you know it. Pierius Magnus 18:54, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Talking about "changing the subject"... bunch of no good hypocrit! Pierius Magnus 18:55, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

In any case you know it's true, tho I think politking is not be this year on the account of that everyone active will be in and everyone not (Freeman, Evans, Galahad) making room for new members! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 20:26, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * "In any case you know it's true"? What's that supposed to mean, Marcus? Pierius Magnus 21:36, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Astonishing. Cristian Latin 11:25, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

Oos Wes Ilava (CCPL)

 * What about non-Limburgish people? (wink) Percival E. Galahad 12:49, December 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, it's more that the new party MCP will probably diminish the number of Limburgish voters, which are together with the more conservative Lovians my most important group of voters. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:52, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

Here's Geert again!!! Will he be permentally moving to lovia?! Maybe Al Gore will move here? Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 16:11, December 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it's about the guy on the right. :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:23, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

Hope he's nice ! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 21:25, December 13, 2010 (UTC)



The Green Revolution
150 years ago marked the peak of the first wave of progress: The Industrial Revolution. Now, Walden wants to bring a second wave of progress to Lovia: The Green Revolution. You might be thinking "didn't the Industrial Revolution and its 'progress' bring lots of pollution and misery to the workers". This may be true, but this revolution is all green: to endorse eco-sustainability; to encourage "green" growth; and to promote Lovia as a sustainable country, to our people and to the world!

People of Lovia, when the time comes, you will be asked to do your duty. When you vote, remember one thing- VOTE WALDEN!!

Brought to you by Justin Abrahams and the Walden Party. Horton11 05:13, December 14, 2010 (UTC)

Good one!!! I love it!! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 23:06, December 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not to be raining on your parade, but just about every party there is/could be in favor of eco-friendliness. Plus, Lovia is already a very ecologically-minded nation. Just saying. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 00:01, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * True, the CPL is always in favor of some eco-power too. Green Revolution sounds nice, but how to implement it? Economic interventionism anyone? 06:35, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry to say so - I've always liked Walden as a party (not its politics or views :P) - but recently a trend is coming that the party is becoming a one-issue party centered around the environment and gay rights. What happened with the old Walden? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:56, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm concerned, Lovia has always taken great care of its natural habitat and of its gays. What "rights" do they lack? Our constitution seems to be very "gender\sexuality neutral" to me. Barking up the wrong tree, that's how I would describe Walden's policy. It has always been prone to doing so. Pierius Magnus 08:08, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * @OWTB: I think it's still there, in Martha and Andy. Justin is clearly taking the gay-and-green route, it seems. 09:59, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, and Martha and Andy are unfortunately not really active.. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:08, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * i'm like really really really busy these days.. Hope you understand. 19:03, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * For some people apparently not ! But anyway, in a poster you can't tell everything. Hit one point and get on. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 21:43, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * I hope walden does not make mistakes in only putting it's green image to the front: 'one can't govern a country on green power' JON   THE DUDE   JOHNSON  14:06, December 18, 2010 (UTC)

Speech from Lotto
Dear people, I've heard Yuri does not want to be prime minister again. We need someone who is refreshing, and is a major figure for Lovia, even if he was only MMOTC. I am hopefully, that one. I am known as a vandalist, but i'll try to grow. I've also seen that most CPL.NM figures are inactive. That is dissappointing. With people like me we can get the communist power back on track. Before it's to late and Lovia has becomen a Christian nation, were atheists and gays cant life in a good atmosphere. A nation were women cant work and become slaves of their husbands. That is a horror scenario. That is what Operation Hammer will prevent. This operation will slay lovia with it's hammer, and make Lovia a dream place, were it is good to life. Also the following is important:States will have too build fire departments and hospitals, But not megalomanous like Clymene, building 4 hospitals in a state which has less inhabitants than the smallest fusion municipality in Belgium? That is wrong. We need to force Clymene to build only one, that is for sure. Also, fire departments? Nobody has heard of that, apparently (except in Oceana maybe). Maybe we need to make that federal, just like the police. Maybe some Noble city Neighborhoods need to be demolished, 15? Maybe 9 less. Maybe we could have departments share buildings, that is efficient. (BTW stolen from the netherlands. Why not merge some departments? Finance, IAT, T&L, EE and transport could be merged. Same goes fore Justice and Foreign, Doche and welfare could remain separate. Then we have Food, i suggest adding a Food Inspection to keep our food and drinks safe. That could be part of Welfare. Police should be moved to Justice, that is more logical. NPs and NMS should be merged, that is better because then we need less people. Justice secretaries would have to appoint 2 judges in stead of 1 to keep it democratic. Let we now end Pierlot McCrooke 15:58, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * So you'll be our next PM? Damn, this is what I'd call a true revelation! And what an epic speech you wrote. Pierius Magnus 16:11, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I dont care. Becoming PM is not my aspiration. It would be fun thoughPierlot McCrooke 16:23, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * So, if not you, who do you think should be our next PM? Pierius Magnus 16:24, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not know yet Pierlot McCrooke 16:25, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've always wanted to vote for a PM who does it just because it would be fun. :P Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 16:26, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know, a dumb answer from me. I think lovia needs aa good PM. Not nesscary me. I as MOC would provide the Lovians a good country. Same goes for me as Pm. That is important. You could do it too. But I think a strong man is needed, like Medvedev was Pierlot McCrooke 16:33, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Lovia needs a strong leader? A strong leader to take us by the hand and guide us to "better days"? Sounds like IGP all over again. Pierius Magnus 18:12, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * No. He should be of course not a fascist militant dictator. He should be a peaceful man which does everything democratic Pierlot McCrooke 18:28, December 23, 2010 (UTC)

SECOND AND THIRD SPEECH COMING SOON Second speech will be about religion Pierlot McCrooke 19:05, December 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * @Perius your right very IGP-ish. @CPL.nm - Think before you act! Remeber this was a person trying to stage a coup! Also I am truly turned off and hope that Oos becomes PM and that we might have a coalition.


 * CCPL/Walden - 8 Seats/Prime Minister
 * CPL.nm - 3 Seats
 * LAP - 2 Seats
 * MCP - 1 Seat
 * Independent - 1 Seat
 * + King = 15 Seats
 * With the Christian/Green Coalition having more than 50% of the seats! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 22:06, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I like this idea of a Christian\Green Coalition, Marcus. The CCPL will be bigger then the commies - they only run three candidates. Out of nine members! Crazy times, crazy times! I expected much more from my red comrades. In my day, this would have never happened. Red is dead? Makes me sad, in a way. Pierius Magnus 22:56, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Who knows, Magnus? Maybe someday Lovian textbooks will credit you as the forefather of Lovian communism. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 23:01, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * The forefather of Lovian communism is the man behind the LCP - the first communist party of Lovia to produce a MOTC. Again, Pierius Magnus 23:11, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Egotrot indeed. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 23:12, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I never asked to be PM over and over again. If you guys think a Walden-CCPL coalition can work then pray forge it. The Communist Party can realize much less than it would want to, maybe the opposition is a more natural position for such a radical party? Only up till now we have been an ideal partner for the other progressive forces in Congress. 08:43, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Who says you'll be the PM again? Not that I would mind, but there is still a chance of Ilava or even McCrooke (of all people!) running, and winning. Can the CPL.nm generate enough support from non-members? I doubt it. Pierius Magnus 08:48, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I doubt Ilava or Pierlot have a broader support base than me, but you never know. I wouldn't mind being a pain-in-the-ass-opposition. 08:49, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pierlot is a fine candidate for Congress. In my opinion, he is incapable of leading other people. Ilava then is a magnificent MOTC - see TNCT report - but he lacks initiative and has never shown the capacity of influencing the center and left. Unlike you, Medve. You've led an entire Congress through various reforms. That's the big difference. 08:53, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * If McCrooke wins you don't have to be a member of the opposition, as he is (for the time being) on your side, Yuri. And I'm not at all saying you'll lose the elections I'm just saying: victory isn't a given fact this time. There is also Walden - Van Ghent has proven to be capable of generating a lot of votes. Pierius Magnus 08:55, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed she has and there's still quite some power in Walden. Still, they haven't put forward a candidate and as I perceive it, Walden's pretty egalitarian - they rule together. My bet is they'll support a common coalition candidate, probably from another party. 08:57, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Then there is Villanova, who has very high ambitions. Van Ghent, then again, is more of a realist and is seeking out possible coalition partners for the future, contacting all the major parties. I suppose Walden would be in favour of Yuri as a PM, I suppose (or any other CPL.nm'r, for that matter). Pierius Magnus 09:00, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I hope that the PM is widely supported, no matter who it is. If the CPL.nm is not part of the governing coalition than we will at least have enough time to prepare a hell of a campaign for the next year. 09:03, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

CCPL
With the elections coming up, undoubtedly you may have a few ideas as to who you will vote for. Here's a few reasons to think CCPL in 2011. No cheeky mottos, no false promises. What the CCPL says it'll do, it'll do, and unlike others, the CCPL proves their promises are real. In the upcoming elections, look for the following candidates, and cast your vote! Thanks for reading, and the CCPL looks forward to working for you next year, and for many years to come. Edward Hannis 18:36, December 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * We'll respect you. The CCPL knows that you aren't going to fall for a cute catchphrase and nice-sounding motto. The reasons to vote for us are solid and blatant. The people is who puts the CCPL in power, and the CCPL will serve you.
 * We'll be there for you. The members of the CCPL are among the most active in the nation, and other parties know it. CCPL has been active and editing every single day for multiple months now.
 * We have the means of serving you. The CCPL is the single largest party in Lovia right now. If there's any party out there that can get things done fast and well, it's the CCPL.
 * We have proven ourselves. Even the rivals of the CCPL respect us. Prime Minister Yuri Medvedev said, "I have always considered their MOTC to be among the best." Edward Hannis, Ygo August Donia, and Oos Wes Ilava have all proven themselves, and all have experience in political environment; they have all been MOTC.
 * We'll inform you. Members of the CCPL have always been informing the nation. In a three-way collaboration between Ilava, Magnus, and Latin, all CCPL, made the most successful local newspaper, the Hurbanova Novine. The most-read and arguably the most important newspaper in the history of Lovia, the famous La Quotidienne was founded by a to-be member of the CCPL, and is currently maintained by Edward Hannis, CCPL as well. Hannis has been highly respected as a journalist, being described as providing "Good writing" by the king. Andy McCandless described Hannis as "Lovia's best journalist of the moment". The CCPL will tell you the truth, and has always done so.
 * We'll stay there for you. The CCPL is currently the most stable party in the nation. Unlike others, the CCPL is not fighting inactivity, is not facing internal division, and is not looking for coalitions; the CCPL is stable and self-sufficient. Though other parties may claim otherwise, the CCPL will serve you better, faster, and longer than any other party.
 * Oos Wes Ilava
 * Edward Hannis
 * Ygo August Donia
 * Cristian Latin


 * The Liberal Arts Party is new to the political game. We are looking forward to a fine cooperation with your party, if the people elect us. You have some nice elements in your program, and some parts match ours. As independent thinkers, however, we believe it fair to question some of your claims in this election propaganda.
 * Your member Donia is a former fascist. How do you want the people of Lovia to trust this man in Congress?
 * In what ways has the CCPL proven itself? Having been in Congress and in the government for a long time, what are the chief achievements of your members?
 * Your newspapers both have, though being fine newspapers, the reputation of being politically colored and biased. How does this rhyme with "informing the people of Lovia"? Is it not rather a party propaganda tool, for example in scandalizing Walden and your opponents?
 * You claim to be the most stable party in the country. Our records show the party was founded last year as a one-man party, then abolished when your leader moved to the Liberal Democrats, then refounded as CCPL.
 * Though your party seems a united front, your constituency could fear "internal division" underneath. Your party consists of a formerly fervent antitheist, a currently very fervent theist and anti-feminist, and one former fascist and communist. The Liberal Arts Party is all for diversity - but how do you rhyme this with your program?
 * Serve us faster. Why? And how could you back this claim?
 * The Liberal Arts Party is new to the business and still has to earn its marks. We believe it's not time for us to make confident promises like you do, because we're not in the position to do so. The CCPL believes it is - and we just want to people to know whether that's the right thing to do. Honesty and transparency is what Lovia needs and wants. Can you give it? Percival E. Galahad 10:38, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd avoid the word propaganda. It has connotations. I'd describe it as persuasion. More neutral, less war-oriented. And sure, I'll back myself up.
 * Donia has clearly turned onto a new leaf. His past actions are no longer representative of who he is. Donia is now a fully active member of the nation, and has demonstrated that he is trustworthy. We are capable of forgiving, are we not? And let's not forget the basic and highly noble cause of his move towards a less-than-respectable party: the establishment of a republic. Democracy is what he wanted. I have reasons to believe that since day 1 even the king himself wanted or expected this nation to become democratic.
 * The members of the CCPL have proven that they are to be good Congressman due to their activity; CCPL has consistently voted and been active in both chambers of Congress. That's what makes the system work; activity and reactivity, discussion and voting.
 * I hardly think that LQ is biased, and if it is, this would be inevitable. The scandalizing of Walden was important, and could hardly be said to be unjustified. Keep in mind that I was still a loyal member of Walden when I wrote that. If anything, it proves that these newspapers will show the failures of the party in a more effective manner.
 * The predecessor to the CCPL, and the means of its establishment, are not only largely non-correlated to the current state of the CCPL, but also remarkably inconclusive in terms of what could be made of it. The establishment of a party is seldom a quiet and stable thing, unless started with a clean plate. The LAP was made following the disintegration of the LU due to a long span of inactivity. The CPL.nm rose from the dust after a period of instability in LD. The list goes on. And what does it matter how the party was established? It was made, and there are no missing pieces left to haunt the party in the future. It's like the creation of the United States; a hell to create, but once made, serene.
 * The members of the CCPL do not have underlying hatred for each other. I do admit to being anti-theist but that's not the say that should cause problems. For lack of a better expression, "hate the sin, not the sinner." I do believe that religion has done much bad to this world, but that's not to say I don't believe theists can be just as good as atheists. And as I've said before, we do owe a lot to religion, and the book I wrote failed to address the fundamental fact that religion is likely the very reason society was ever established. There is no conflict between members of the CCPL; we coexist and cooperate, and the party has proven to be open to others. The party's article describes this.
 * By faster, we mean that we will pass bills in less time. A larger amount of people in Congress, and especially a very active party, would mean that things would go very fast through the First Chamber, then quickly advance to the Second Chamber.
 * I hope you're willing to accept that the CCPL may be a good party. I like the LAP, and it would be a great thing if you could share such a feeling vice-versa. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 19:51, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * for last point. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 20:23, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mr. Galahad: I am neither fascist nor an anti-feminist. I never was a fascist. I am a Christian Democrat, a defender of the freedom of speech and a supporter of a symbolic monarchy. I am, and have always been, someone who respects democracy. Do not attack our party by attacking it's members with blatant lies and false accusations. Pierius Magnus 22:25, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not to be the devil's advocate, I have no doubt that you're an honest man nowadays, but still; weren't you working with Honecker for awhile? Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 22:29, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have been in contact with Mr. Honecker once. It was on another wikia - I was, at the time being, banned from wikination. On Lovia, I was never in any way associated with him nor the IGP. I have never been a member of the IGP nor ever supported it in any way. The conversation I had with this gentlemen a full year ago, is of no importance. Only one former IGP-member (and leader) is still active; McCrooke. He may even become our PM. People are very, very forgiving. Their forgiveness, though, is selective. Pierius Magnus 22:39, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, come to think of it, it's funny how you've been insulted more than McCrooke has, or so it seems. It's like McCrooke is so incredibly silly his case is closer to a joke than anything else. Forgiveness in this nation can be selective, I'll give you that. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 22:56, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * More or less, But is seems like Magnus and Peirlot have had there rivalry going on for some time, a great thing to watch i'd buy a ticket to that show, It's on round 20 already sooner or later somones gonna loose. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden
 * Chapeau, Hannis! You did a great job ! Looks very fine! I am confident that CCPL will obtain tremendous results in January! Bucu 22:17, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Haha, and don't forget that our own Oos founded TNCT, so actually all three major newspapers (Novine, LQ, TNCT) have Christian Conservative roots :P Cristian Latin 12:34, December 28, 2010 (UTC)

CPL.nm Campaign Launch
CPL.nm is stronger than ever, parties from all ideologies are asking to start a coalition, which means they are aware of our great politicians. Yuri Medvedev, Jon Johnson, Pierlot McCrooke, Olaf Engelund, Alyssa C. Red, Ferenc Szóhad, Philip Bradly-Lashawn need your vote! JON  THE DUDE   JOHNSON  12:46, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Hammer will slay Lovia! It will make Lovia better! We wont do megalomanous Pierlot McCrooke 12:48, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Great guys, I'm glad to be on your team! As Martha is promoting the idea of a coalition government I think we make a good chance at scoring. (just keep pages readable too ) 14:12, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sadly I don't so I guess that's one/fourth of walden. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 17:27, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

Well those are some nice posters! Are you going to put forth an official PM candidate? Pierius Magnus 22:19, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm actually quite interested to know who Walden is going to put forth for PM. It would be an important decision for the party to make, and a great representation of who they think is their most worthy member. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 22:21, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

I'd say Yuri is one their most expierenced users - second, maybe, only to McCrooke who has been a part of Lovia since 2007 - for nearly four years. Yuri has more expierence as a statesman, as a politician and as a PM though. If they pick Medvedev they "play it safe" - if they pick McCrooke they take a chance - assuming the people of Lovia want a "fresh face" and "change", as McCrooke claims. Pierius Magnus 22:29, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think McCrooke wants to change things for the heck of it. The solution to a nonexistent problem... I've said that sentence too many times. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 22:31, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what he's thinking: I can't get inside his head, he's way to unpredictable. Maybe he thinks he has been a member of the site for so long he deserves his finest hour, his fifteen minutes of fame. And then, probably go down in a blaze of glory. He's a very theatrical personality! Pierius Magnus 22:33, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's hope that if his life is a Greek play, his anagnorisis isn't too far away... (Fancy word, I know. I love using it.) Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 22:36, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

I doubt it. Although, like a chameleon, he changes colour frequently. Pierius Magnus 22:42, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe his true colors are ever-changing, or on the contrary he is colorblind, incapable of realizing how he swings hues and shades at a whim. I've seldom seen the color of wise McCrooke, I'll give you that. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 22:59, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe the fact that he joined the commies is the main reason behind their current demise. Pierius Magnus 23:01, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Possibly, but as you reflected upon Walden and warned CPL.nm, don't let Pierlot into your party. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 23:03, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * We now know where it gets you. Pierius Magnus 23:05, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yup. Speaking of which, are we going to try and get a PM candidate through? I personally favor letting Medvedev or eventually Walden (Have you read their plan to see if they can get a PM? Talk about vote-changing.) taking that role, and instead we try to keep a good hold in Congress. I'm also unsure if we should accept a coalition with another party. I'd rather stick with cooperate rather than coalition. The latter seems to be a bit too bonding, and largely secretive in nature (IDK if you know, but WLP+LD was a secretly-created coalition). I'd prefer a simple, transparent system. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 23:10, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think we should, too, consider putting forth candidate. Our party is as big as Walden (even bigger then they are, considering we lost a member who'll still fully support us as an independent). And we are even bigger then CPL.nm, in terms of running members. We have a fair chance at producing a PM from among our own ranks. I say Oos is our best and most expierenced possible candidate - that ought to make up for his lost governorship! Pierius Magnus 23:17, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Oos has the characteristics I'd want to see in a PM candidate: experience, activity, and willingness to work with others. The same cannot be said of McCrooke (uncooperative), and not especially of van Ghent/McCandless (inactive), so he would only rival Yuri at the moment, and from an objective standpoint, I'm unsure who would be better. Yuri has experience, but it's important to keep a changing of power. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 23:21, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm all in favour of Ilava. He has what it takes: activity, expierence and he'll truly bring some change to the nation. He may be a Christian but he is a tolerant and thoughtful person - much like Yuri. Like any man, he is not without his flaws but he a much better choice for PM then McCrooke or McCandless. I'd say we should give it a try, see where it gets us. Pierius Magnus 23:26, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * If Oos is up for it, then I'm all in favor. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 23:37, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * First of all, the CPL.nm isn't on the road to downfall at all. I always said that even if I have to keep it up as a one-man party I'd do it. Second, I hope enough serious candidates rise because I can't be PM forever. 08:54, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd say, we should choose a PM that is indepedent from a god. Someone like Yuri. The christian party is too conservative to rule this nation, and Ilava cant represent everyone, like Yuri can Pierlot McCrooke 09:32, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nobody can represent everybody. That's a very hard lie. Yuri can't possibly represent any Christian of this nation (except for maybe a Christian commie if there is one..) The only people that might be represent for most of us are, I'm sorry to say so, only Lars, Bart, Ben, Arthur and Percy (which all are practically inactive). --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:41, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Percy isn't - if by by Percy, you mean Galahad. Pierius Magnus 09:43, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Oos: You're missing the gist here. Centrist don't represent the hardcore commies or the extremist whateverists. It's not about "representing" them all, it's about being capable to set the majority of them in motion. To get things done by getting people to agree on a common goal. And whether you like Yuri's program or not, he has proven to be pretty good at that. (And so have I, I believe, but I'm not a candidate ) 09:45, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, "represent" is something else as "motivating". And yes, I believe Yuri has that quality and that's the reason that he received one of my three votes during the last elections. Of course when it comes to the states it was just pure vriendjespolitiek, but that has been said before :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:48, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree there was something wrong during the state elections and I believe it's structural. We need to change our election procedure and perhaps the powers and working of the states to fix it. 09:51, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * A lot to do I see :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:52, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems that the problems concerning the States will never end :P Maybe we should abolish them, Ilava, like McCrooke said. McCrooke for PM! Bucu 10:01, December 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * If they abolish the states, I'll personally abolish this entire wiki :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:05, December 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * . I'll call Boussaboun to give me some uranium if necessary? :P Bucu 10:07, December 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ow, in that case I'll ask Frans de Jong whether he still has some of those nuclear war heads they found in Brabant :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 10:09, December 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hahha . Bucu 10:10, December 28, 2010 (UTC)

CCPL - Keypoints


CCPL is the party that will...
 * Make States really work. CCPL's priority is to slightly reform the States. Most of the States remain ungoverned as many Governors become absent once they are chosen. No huge reform is wanted, but changing the election procedure and determinating the tasks of the local rulers are our keypoints for 2011.
 * Invest in education. Following generations should have the best opportunities. Our children are our future. Improving the system, bringing it to an exceptional level, is a must for next year.
 * Keep protecting the environment. Lovia can already be regarded as a leader in the world. We must remain an example to other nations and keep on spending on protection of our natural environment. Oceana is the leading state with its green areas, on initiative of CCPL leader Oos Wes Ilava.
 * Introduce Christian values in society like tolerance, peace and love for one's fellow man or woman.
 * Change Lovian politics. More CCPL Congressmen will mean a new stable era for our National Congress, with more activity, cooperation and efficiency.

Cristian Latin (CCPL) wishes every Lovian wisdom when choosing our Parliament in January. Compare all party programs and candidates. Vote for what you think will be best for Lovia. Good luck to all fellow participants, independents or party members.

Hereby, I will explicitly ask all potential Congressmen not to start speculating on pre-election coalitions and to remain open to transparent cooperation until the official outcome has been made public. Cristian Latin, CCPL 10:42, December 28, 2010 (UTC)

Quoting McCandless on... Marcus Villanova
Awesome Picture!! Can't wait for the others!! I hope we do good in the elections. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 15:20, December 28, 2010 (UTC)

and... Justin Abrahams!
Walden is gonna kick some ass! Our team - Justin Marcus Martha and me - is a superteam with all the characteristics of an active Congress faction! Progressive as ever, Walden cares about your personal situation, our common good, the environment and accessible government! 15:24, December 28, 2010 (UTC)

Great posters Andy! Horton11 15:52, December 28, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, Awesome posters! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 15:54, December 28, 2010 (UTC)

Rent is too Damn High Party supports!!!
We at the Rent is too MF High Party be supporting The Red Bears from russia and we also be supporting the widerness Hippies. I hope they done get elected and lower that damn high rent, so them kids get presents for da holidays and won't have to enroll in the miltary! Plus we don't have a Millitary! I mean c'mon, When I was in Vietnam I was infected with agent oregane...I mean that shit was horrible but it taught me that the RENT WAS TOO DAMN HIGH... Anyway VOTE The Socialist Bears and The Hippies. From - Jimmy McMillian Founder of the American RITDHP 16:11, December 28, 2010 (UTC)

Last official words as PM (in this legislature)
''Dear fellow Lovians, campaigning season is on and in the midst of all the campaigning hurricanes I would like say a few words of my own too. I enjoyed being PM of this small yet giant nation and believe we have progressed a great deal. Thank you to all citizens who engaged in politics, from party militants to MOTC. Without you all the successes of the incumbent government couldn't have been accomplished.''

''This said, I hereby officially announce that I will be running as PM candidate once again. It will be my goal to safeguard Congress from a too strong 'presidentified' premmy, as it has always been. The party I may gladly represent in the 2010 Federal Elections, the CPL.nm, will further focus on social legislation and a fair tax system. I do however hope to count on a support base that exceeds party boundaries. Other parties may see this as an official invitation to support me as common candidate.''

Because I couldn't think of a non-lame sentence: thanks for listening and please consider voting! 15:25, December 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Go Yuri! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 15:27, December 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I hope the Walden Election Council will say yeay to a coalition. That voting is still on, not? 15:29, December 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * IDK, but i hope they are, I hope for a LAP+W+CLP.nm Coalition. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 15:52, December 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * That makes two of us.  15:57, December 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well said, Yuri. I personally endorse you too. Although I have to spread my three votes among four Waldeners, I will also consider voting for you as our common PM candidate. Martha Van Ghent 16:04, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

Applause for Yuri for having been a trustworthy and fine Prime Minister for the last eleven months  20:34, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah true! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 20:59, December 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yuri, you are the best PM this nation has to offer. There is no other politician I can think of who could ever do a better job in representing as many people as possible. Based on my political stance, my vote would be for Oos, with whom I agree on much more issues. Needless to say, I would mind having you as our PM for another year. It is a bit sad though, that so many people cry for change, and at the same time, are unable to bring it. To all folks with a big mouth, I say: bring it! Pierius Magnus 22:28, December 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Though Lovia may rock and topple in the rough seas, and it may be petrified in a lull of windless air, Yuri has always been a gentle breeze in the right direction. To put it poetically. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 01:11, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you guys for the positive comment, whichever candidate you may support in the upcoming elections. 08:16, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * The commies have your back, Yuri, as always. As for the Waldeners and Conservatives: we all vote for our own candidates but this doesn't mean we don't wish you well! Pierius Magnus 08:18, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

Walk it!


''Our message? The future can be bright if we are willing to take the road ahead. We of the CPL.nm walk that road to change, but it is a long road filled with obstacles.'' ''If we can walk it together, the burden will be lightened. I ask you to walk that road with us. Walk for progress.'' - 14:39, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Know 'em To brunette is the obstacle than :p I would of chosen the same poster if I had time JON   THE DUDE   JOHNSON  14:55, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Damn you guys sure know how to make a good poster! :) Pierius Magnus 15:22, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah very nice. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 15:40, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Makes me want to maybe pay the outlandish price for Photoshop. Still, there's no way I'm paying ... (checking price) ... $600 on Adobe's website!? At least $140 elsewhere!? Is the thing made out of gold or something? I'm seriously wondering how you ever found an excuse to buy such a thing. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 16:22, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

Idk, i also thought they might of had a free version or somthing...but no. Everything looks good but not worth it. But if it can make a good map then maybe... Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 16:25, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * We don't; We illegally download (commies you see :p) JON   THE DUDE   JOHNSON  16:26, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

Ha! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 16:28, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Should've thought of that. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 17:15, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * It is a fabulous piece of (digital) technology. I worked like 30' on this one, imagine what results can be achieved if you give a pro like two hours! But you guys are right: software worth paying that amount of money should at least be able to tell who will be the next US president. 08:27, December 31, 2010 (UTC)

Liberal Arts Party announcements
The Liberal Arts Party is a stand-alone liberal party with two candidates for Congress, as well as an independent on our ballots. Our number one priority is education. What we want?
 * Quality - Top-notch education, taken care of by the government who should aim high and regularly check whether its goals are being achieved. We need uniform education types and degrees. Especially higher education is in need of uniformization.
 * Accessibility - Princeton and Yale are really amazing universities. But they are not accessible for the majority of the people. LAP wants to give Lovians - all Lovians - equal chances in education. Low costs is one way to do that. Campuses spread across the nation is another. We want both.

That's what we will actively push for. What we will support in Congress, by voting and providing feedback, are liberal proposals that wish to promote the arts, education, and cultural initiatives. LAP will be a partner in the various state reforms and the legal re-activitation of the state governments. We are generally labeled "liberal", and we will take in such a stance on most topics. Our members are, nevertheless, solidary with the working Lovian. Solidarity and egalitarianism will encourage our economy and will make us more critical, intelligent and democracy-loving people.

I hereby announce my candidacy for Prime Minister of Lovia. The Liberal Arts Party is the perfect centrist alternative. Who else than the independent yet compromising centrists from the Liberal Arts Party will be capable of forming and leading a mixed government and Congress? As a Prime Minister, I will put efficiency and compromise first. I will not pursue my own agenda as a Prime Minister, but will put effort in getting Congress and my government to work better, faster and more transparent. Pursuing my educational agenda will be my priority as Member of the Congress, and that of my elected or non-elected colleagues.

Our party does however realize that we are but a small player in this gargantuan garden of political play. Still, we are confident that a compromise candidate, who is willing to take up the Prime Ministership, voluntarily and with great enthusiasm, should be able to gather votes from both Left and Right.

We hope LAP can count on your support. LAP will be the perfect and willing party to cooperate with in Congress, for both conservatives and progressives. Best of luck to all! Percival E. Galahad 08:58, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Good luck with your candidacy. I do recognize you as valuable alternative to myself.  09:04, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well thanks! If you have a vote to spare ;) Percival E. Galahad 09:08, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Good luck, Sir Galahad. Who know what'll happen? We might get a new PM after these elections - currently I am running ahead, but I'm pretty sure Yuri will catch up with me as soon as the other commies return. Pierius Magnus 09:12, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * It is of major importance to the democracy, I believe, that there are more than two (a Rightist and a Leftist) candidates. Percival E. Galahad 09:14, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well I currently have seven points and our CCPL leader Ilava has six. He is to be considered a serious candidate. Pierius Magnus 09:20, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * I do not know who to support, I have always been in liberal parties but Yuri did a fine job. Then there is the candidate of real change from the CCPL. I am truly clueless. Harold Freeman 09:27, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * You should do as your heart feels. It sounds lame, but it is true: politics is about feeling in touch. 09:28, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * There are so many good candidates to choose from... Semyon 09:43, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Choose a Walden candidate! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 15:34, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Brilliantly spoken, Marcus.  Edward Hannis  [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 18:11, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Semyon, you said you would still support the Conservatives, despite leaving our party. This was a lie. You do not support us, as is now very clear to me. Pierius Magnus 18:37, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Pierius.. We have four candidates and he has three votes ;) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:53, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes... and two of those were wasted on people outside of the CCPL. :) Pierius Magnus 18:56, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah. That ain't good at all è. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:59, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * @ hannis - I don't beat around the bush . I like Percival and hope he gets re-elected but I like Yuri as PM better. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 19:06, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yuri is a good PM, but perhaps we should also give other people a chance to prove that they are good as PM aswell. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 19:08, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, Lovia is waiting for an outspoken CCPL candidate to announce his candidacy. Your brilliant members have criticized the other big parties for not doing so. It's time CCPL show it's morally superior  19:13, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't try to fool me :P I'm outspoken that I'm not running. Mäöres gives me enough headaches :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 19:14, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could have a Marcus/michael PM Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 19:17, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hm... yeah  19:18, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Withdrawal
I withdraw from the election. My candidacy was too hasty and I need more time to get in touch with the People. I wish to continue my full support for Percival E. Galahad, our candidate for Congress and Prime Minister, as well as for Arthur Jefferson, our Non-Inscrit. Hillbilly Boy 09:41, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * I did not see this coming. I am sorry to hear this, but I wish you all the best and maybe we'll see you again in the Mid-terms!! Cristian Latin 18:50, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nor did I... But as he said, it is perhaps a good idea to discover our nation more thorougly and to let the people discover him without haste. Percival E. Galahad 19:04, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

Me too...
Dear Lovians, i am sorry to annouce i'll be dropping back from the elections! Sorry Walden but in hopes I want that Justin, Martha, and Andy get elected to congress and serve there duties well. I will admit congress was hard but I loved my collegues and the time I spent in the chamber. Next I will run for Govenor of Clymene again, where I really feel at home. Thanks to all and I hope to see you in the next state elections and mid-terms! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 20:21, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Your departure saddens the nation, Marcus. With your withdrawal we lose a great politician. Pierius Magnus 20:26, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

Move to Clymene, then you'll also have a great politican! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 20:39, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Forget it. I'm still in. I thought and said..."I love lovia too much, i doubted myself for a second too, and that can't happen!" Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 20:47, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * That's the spirit! Check my user talk page ;) Martha Van Ghent 07:59, January 8, 2011 (UTC)

I'm still in it! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 17:46, January 8, 2011 (UTC)

UNS propaganda
People of Lovia, do not fall for the crooks that run this nation! Our people can only overcome the many obstacles that threaten us if we look beyond our divides and unite. Economic crisis, migration waves, rising criminality,... modernity has failed to solve these problems because they are enshrined in modernity itself. There is no voice of reason, there is just us the people. I say let us live according to our noble nature. Why support a statist democracy that oppresses its people? Support the UNS and abstain from voting! Marc Thomassen 14:06, January 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * *says in robot vote* Yes i shall do what you say oh great one! Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 17:47, January 8, 2011 (UTC)

Why CCPL is your best choice!
Or not. Martha Van Ghent 14:40, January 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Funny thing, though quite offensive. You got the statistics on your side, Martha!  14:49, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Offensive? It's the damn truth . If CCPL goes for PM and government, they better get to know the words "initiative" and "working your ass off". Martha Van Ghent 15:13, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I know how to do it, but if you ain't kneedbaar I can't help it. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:44, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

Considering the fact Mrs. Red makes 5 edits a year and rarley ever makes a disscussion the first chamber I wouldn't be talking. At least the CCPL furthers the disscussion and brings makes sure that congress is active. Alot of Walden is unactive, CPL.nm makes most bills which also takes alot of time, LAP...not worth the text. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 17:08, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Marcus is correct, but it is a bid sad that he is screaming to walden being inactive, since he's just gone away one day JON   THE DUDE   JOHNSON  17:10, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Which I had already pointed out while I was in Walden... Either than that I'm okay. Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 17:24, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * As much as you may have a point, I'd quote Wikipedia: Conservatism (Latin: conservare, "to preserve") is a political and social philosophy that promotes ... at the most, minimal and gradual change in society. Btw, Van Ghent, if you want to offend, you gotta try harder. I've got a heart of steel.  Edward Hannis  [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 17:28, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * And me Balls of Titanium... Marcus Villanova Music is Life.Lean Forward.Walden 17:31, January 16, 2011 (UTC)