Forum:Wikination

Forum:Wikination is the community forum for this wiki where users discuss the way the site works and the way it should work, as well as non-Lovian community events and policies. The forum does not have authority to alter the site regulations or decide on proposed deletes, moves and blocks; it is a forum for the entire community to poll and discuss, and finally to pass the community's findings on to the site council. The forum is moderated by the site council members and the admins.

Forum opening
I hereby officially open the Community Forum! 06:01, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Congratulations :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:04, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * horay!!!Marcus Villanova 19:28, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * It is really a nice initiative. Makes things a lot more transparant. Love it! Dr. Magnus 09:52, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I indeed hope it does  18:37, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * (late reactie) :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:39, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

Site council creation
The site council will soon be created. 06:01, October 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * I hope to be apart of it! Marcus Villanova 19:28, October 1, 2010 (UTC)

Discussion topic: uncontrolled growth?
A number of users, of which User:Horton11 is the most prominent, have been writing articles at an amazing pace. The site administration has been unable to keep up. Of all the articles these users have created, only a few have been controled. They're often not finished or lacking in style and language. Mostly, they're left "unwikified". The most significant problem, though, is that their content is not adapted to Lovia. As you know, it is site regulation that all articles MUST CONCERN LOVIA. The spy articles were a good example of non-Lovian content: Lovia does even have a "secret service" they claim to have worked for. (The spy articles have been marked for deletion.)

Should, and could, the community do something about this? Should we perhaps stop article creation for a while until we cleaned up and finished all these new articles? Opinions please.

@BastardRoyale: Opinions, not speeches. 06:01, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, we should at least have a "wikification" template, so we know which pages still need to be fixed. Trash should be deleted. Horton11 should realize that his edits aren't really OK and if he doesn't realize that he's on the right wiki here. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:06, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know. The thing is we need support from the community. Also, describing in concreto what's wrong with his edits - and those of his "friends" - isn't always as easy.
 * Let's make it: Template:Wikify. 15:29, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, you got my support :) I think structure and data coherence (gegevensovereenkomst?) is probably the most important for the wiki contents. For the attractiveness we need spelling and lay-out fixed, but those aren't my best points, so I can only help a bit with that :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:50, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I totally agree. If I would give you rollback rights, would you be likely to use them to revert some rubbish? 15:52, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Which rubbish? --O u WTBsjrief-mich 15:53, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Vandalism, wrong spelling "corrections", etc. 16:00, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah ok, that's OK :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 16:10, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, then that'll be the first thing I'll propose to the site council :) 16:37, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Good jónk :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:33, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * yep. Marcus Villanova 19:28, October 1, 2010 (UTC)

"Systematic sockpuppeting"
The administrators of Wikination have always been suspicious about sockpuppets, because they can be very useful (and therefore manipulative) on this wiki. We know some of our (valued) users have had sockpuppets in the past. We also know some still do, and still use them.

Now, there's one instant of "systematic" abuse that we are aware of. One of the users has abused several accounts (more than 7 and probably even more of which we are not aware), using different PCs to avoid IP similarity. Now, I contacted the Central Wikia a while ago about this problem. They told me we - that is the site administrators - have the full right to block users and to bust sockpuppet networks without "proof" (i.e. IPs), but with strong clues and potential danger to the website.

I have tried several times to put it (the evidence) all together, but that has proven a difficult task. It is scattered across wikis, going as far as Wikipedia, the Dutch Wikistad and numerous Wikias I have even never visited. It is substantial and convincing.

As I said, Wikia authorized the administrators to act in good faith and bust them. Nevertheless, I would like to hear some opinions from you. Blocking all the sockpuppets, and temporarily suspending the sockpuppet master's editing rights, may have far-reaching consequences. It is, however, for the good of the wiki. Users who abuse sockpuppets to control votes and to antagonize political movements, do not contribute to the wiki. They create a dangerous illusion that can fall apart at any time. 07:19, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * He has multiple Ip adresses. He also did have sockpuppets llike Pharaoh (at llamada).
 * Hints:
 * Bombastic writing style
 * Always wants to be in the positive spotlight
 * mythologically nonsense
 * I know who you mean. He can be abbreviated as PM Pierlot McCrooke 07:56, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd say block them if they don't work together with other users and aren't willing to change their sockpuppet habits. Provocative users are not useful in my opinion. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 07:58, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * The thing is that sockpuppets can always be useful to the site. Some sockpuppets actually do great work, I believe. But it is against site rules. Also, most sockpuppets seem to be here for other purposes: election fraud, political spectacle, etc. 08:09, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pff.. Difficult.. I think election fraud isn't something we'd like to see. And political spectacle has led to blocking users in the past. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 08:12, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * It is indeed a difficult matter. It is hard to prove, but it's harder to ignore the leads. 08:15, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Block seems best option. It would be a good signal to other potential sockpuppeteers. Martha Van Ghent 13:14, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, if it was, we probably wouldn't have any sockpuppets around anymore... Dimi has blocked tens of sockpuppets and also their masters in the past. But I don't believe it really works repulsively. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 06:41, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * First of all, let's make a list of (suspected) sock puppets. Am I right that you guys are referring to Drabo and Pierius Magnus? On Llamadawiki we did an IP-check and saw that they don't share an IP. Both IPs were, however, in the same province in the Netherlands, and we can therefore conclude that he possibly uses two computers. I have three at home, and probably most of you guys have also an extra one, so... SjorskingmaWikistad 07:12, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's right. In one e-mail, Pierius revealed to me that he used another computer to use User:William Johnson (more about that later): "de William Johnson account heb ik aangemaakt op de pc van een kameraad van me, zodat het IP zou afwijken van het mijne." (16 januari 2010) 07:33, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

List

 * 1) Drabo13
 * 2) Pierius Magnus
 * 3) Pharao (Llamada only)
 * 4) AdolfsManholt (Harvian Islands only)

The Pierius Case
I was indeed referring to Pierius/Drabo and his sockpuppets. This is a list of users of which I am fairly certain that they're linked to Pierius:


 * 1) User:Pierius Magnus - the "real guy"
 * 2) User:86.89.146.118 - his IP
 * 3) User:Drabo13 - a sockpuppet he created to put his own love for the apartheid regime in (check Wikipedia), and to antagonize his "own communist movement"
 * 4) User:Dani Yusef Ali-Baba - Pierius said to me in an e-mail: "de dani yusef account was van een vriend van me, ik heb de account al in november 2009 overgenomen maar heb dit niet doorgegeven met het plan om "gebruik" te maken van de dubbele accounts. ik dacht dat ik ermee weg zou komen vanwege de twee verschillende ip-adressen." (rough translation: "that account belonged to a frind of mine, until I took it over in November 2009"
 * 5) User:William Johnson - Pierius confessed to me that this was a sockpuppet of his; also, William Johnson "himself" said on Wikination to be the same person as "Dani Yusef", so that makes sense.
 * 6) User:Discutie
 * 7) User:ArminBlanche - Wikia confirmed sockpuppetry
 * 8) User:BastardRoyale - When ArminBlanche failed in being a good sockie, Pierius reincarnated that figure in the now wildly popular "BastardRoyale". In style, he is exactly Pierius. Bombastic speeches and all. He shows the typical traits of a bad Pierius sockie: joining a political movement against his own (Drabo), admiring the concept of royalty, being scandal-loving, mixing informal styles with bombastic populism, etc. As we all see, BastardRoyale just took over the status of User:Pierius Magnus as Pierius' main account.

Personally, I am very, very strongly inclined to think that Dietrich Honecker was a puppet of his too. On the other hand, there's way less evidence to back this up, so I'm not including him in the list. Other people from the IGP past are very likely also linked to either Dietrich or Pierius (or both, if I'm right).

Evidence that link together the users mentioned above?
 * Wikipedia: past of relentless sockpuppetry
 * Wikipedia: interest for the Apartheid regime (~Drabo)
 * Motifs:
 * monarchy and aristocracy ("Baron")
 * communism (Pierius, Bastard) versus extreme-rightism or conservativism (Drabo, William Johnson)
 * bombastic writing style (all sockies)
 * the denial of being/having a sockpuppet: he does it every time and goes quite far in doing it
 * ambiguous relationship with Pierlot
 * knowledge of Dutch, or Dutch-influenced writing in English
 * the ability to switch sides constantly in a debate
 * He has confessed to at least two sockies.
 * Wikia has confirmed at least one other sockie.
 * etc.

Please add more details, sockpuppets, evidence, etc. underneath. 07:33, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * BTW: Only sockpuppets on Wikination requiring blocking. You may give us the names of the other ones, but we first of all need those which he USED HERE. 07:33, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, when I saw the wikipedia account page a few months ago, I had a sort of mental breakthrough. All pieces fell together, and I suddenly realized that Magnus was the sock puppeteer. SjorskingmaWikistad 07:41, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Brenda Young (crappy logo making, fascism), Meliander Chlionides (Bombastic) Pharao (Confessed sockie), AdolfsManholt (suspected sockie of Drabo, and therefore Magnus) Unlawful (same story) Nieuwe Start (confessed sockie) SjorskingmaWikistad 07:43, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Same here. Cmon, what are the odds!? Which Wikipedia user has a substantial interest in (and support of) the South African apartheid regime? Knowing this, it all ties together. I suppose it's a bit like this:
 * Pierius has one account and does just fine.
 * Pierius needs another one for a political purpose, or just wants to make one for fun. He uses some of his not so well known characteristics and enlargens them within the "personality" of his new sockie.
 * This process goes on for a while; he gets more sockies as the time goes by. Some of them are busted though, and that's when he creates new ones. The transition between ArminBlanche and Bastard is the textbook example of this process.
 * In the end, there are so many different users, all sort of linked to Pierius, but most with specific traits that Pierius doesn't seem to have. The thing is to think deeper: those traits are Pierius', but he suppresses them in Pierius, and over-represents them in his sockies.
 * 07:48, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * (May I edit here?) I already thought magnus was using different computers. I dont think magnus ha created Dietrich or Brenda Pierlot McCrooke 07:47, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes you may. 07:48, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Soclkies: Pierlot McCrooke 07:49, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indiaantje
 * Batulla
 * Kutnegertjesaidslijers (name may be not fully correct)
 * JezusOnzeRedder (according to wikistaff those accounts werre linked to Bastard)
 * Some Pierlot is evil 666 accounts
 * On wikipedia he spamds people that they have to translate Pier Gerlofs Donia's article. Pierius user name \ is latin name for this figure. This spam was a bi9t like that Drabo trial-spam Pierlot McCrooke 08:51, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * You just keep trying, don't you guys? I can assure you you got it all wrong, I have nothing to hide and nothing to do with these people. And how could you even think for one minute I could be Honecker? It's ridiculous. If you suspect electoral fraud the savest thing to do is just prevent all users you suspect of having fraudulous intentions from voting or participating until after the elections. Dr. Magnus 09:14, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you have a problem Magnus. You deny the whole time, but you know yourself you maintain dozens of sock puppets. SjorskingmaWikistad 09:19, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * It is you who has a problem. You see ghosts, you hallucinate, see things that aren't there. Haven't you guys been taking your pills lately, or are you perhaps on drugs? Just take a chillpill and relax dude. Dr. Magnus 09:25, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you better confess. SjorskingmaWikistad 09:28, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Look at you, what are you, Miss Marple? The Pink Panther, trying to solve the mysterious case of Dr. Magnus? Its really pathetic, you should know. Dr. Magnus 09:30, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pathetic is your denial, Magnus. And by the way: there's little mystery left to us. The only ones who don't seem to know what you've been up to, are you and your sockpups. 09:35, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, I'm kind of shocked and sad to read and find out about all of this, since I get/got along quite well with him on Wikistad (he might 've gotten a bit carried away with the whole second civil war business, but who didn't?). Concerning User:Mellisánder_Chilonides though, I'm pretty sure he's not just another Magnus' sockpuppet; his style too might be considered 'bombastic' (as Dimi and Sjors write), but in my humble opinion it ánd his interests are still very different from that of Magnus. K_gitaar.png Echo cho 09:37, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've also had moments during which I really appreciated Magnus as a person. Really. It's sad that we have to do this now.
 * Concerning Chilonides: I think you might be right. I don't know her (him?) enough to have an opinion about her. 09:41, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Melisander is very Magnusesque. I have seen her (his) talk from talkpage~s Pierlot McCrooke 09:44, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sure my writing reminds others of someone else as well, but that doesn't necessarily make me a sockpuppet. K_gitaar.png Echo cho 09:58, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Magnus style in cobination with being fan of mthological things an d tribes. is a hint Pierlot McCrooke 10:00, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was unaware that Magnus had expressed himself as being a fan of mythology and tribal life. K_gitaar.png Echo cho 10:17, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pharaoh at Llamada is a clear example. He is magnus and has the same type of intresse as Melisander Pierlot McCrooke 10:22, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hold up, Magnus has confessed (to Sjors?) that he is actually User:Pharaoh on Llamada? 10:36, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * No. it became known that he was magnus after a chekcuser Pierlot McCrooke 10:41, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because Sjors wrote "Pharao (Confessed sockie)" on this forum. If Magnus is in fact proven to be Pharaoh, I have underestimated him terribly (because those two users look little alike in my eyes) and then he could almost be just about anybody. K_gitaar.png Echo cho 10:52, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * There was a checkuser on Llamada. Magnus is active there also. And Pharaoh was proven to be magnus Pierlot McCrooke 10:54, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's prove to back that up. Anyway, we should focus on his users in Lovia here. I suggest Llamada and other wikis do the same over there. We will lock up those who he has abused over here. 10:55, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * You seem to think Llamada is a amateur wiki, but we have a pretty good maintenance as well. We have made a dossier over there for the Magnus case a few months ago. It is in the staff area of the site, which cannot be viewed by normal users. SjorskingmaWikistad 11:10, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not at all! I very well know you have some great new technologies and a well developed site level - which we hardly have over here. (That's why we needed a site council) 11:21, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

http://www.llamadawiki.nl/wiki/Overleg_gebruiker:Sjorskingma#Tutang. That is the place where it was said. Pierlot McCrooke 11:02, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I hate to admit it, but Pierlot is right: the IP (86.89.146.118) which is clearly linked to Pierius on this wiki and Wikistad is indeed shared by Pharaoh on Llamada(proof, which would mean Magnus and Pharaoh are indeed the same person. Scary. K_gitaar.png Echo cho 11:19, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well well. 11:21, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

It really makes me feel so special you liked me as a person! To bad we can't be friend anymore.
 * The worst thing is that you say I am the same person as Honecker & Drabo. I am, by all accounts, not a nazi or a racist nor will I ever be one. It saddens me my brother compare my to those figures. Dr. Magnus 09:50, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Me too. Big disappointment. 10:55, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh come on, your just acting all paranoid. Your not helping anyone with this ridiculous nonsense. Dr. Magnus 14:33, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Magnus on wikipediA: Pierlot McCrooke 15:03, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pierlot, I know your brain is the size of that of a squirrel but I thought you understood this was about me on this wikia, not on others. Dr. Magnus 15:07, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I know I can confirm that Magnus IS NOT Drabo13. Unless there is more prove than when I was working at the case magnus. (Yes Magnus, You've got your own case on llamada ;P). So, If I'm wrong, please tell me (I hope so) Apoo banaan 17:55, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Dimitri, please check your mail. I and apoo would like to help you with this case because we have also a case about Magnus on Llamada (like apoo said above). Kind regards, TahR78 18:01, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

I can confirm some things that aren't true. I'm NOT defending magnus. I'm telling what the evidence is saying: Wikia Staff confrims this because they did a checkuser. Pierlot, you know that these accounts aren't socks of Magnus, so please stop telling that.
 * Magnus is NOT BastardRoyale
 * Magnus is NOT Onderdaan (sock of BastardRoyale)
 * Magnus is NOT Verteller (sock of BastardRoyale)
 * Magnus is NOT JezusOnzeRedder (sock of BastardRoyale)
 * Magnus IS Indiaantje
 * Magnus IS Nieuwe Start

When I've started with the case magnus I've had about 40 possible suckpuppets. Most of them where suspected because of the same behaviour. A lot of these suckpuppets where not guilty.

The only way that BastardRoyale (and his socks) IS magnus is that he used/created the suckpuppets in an other house where he NEVER logged in with other accounts, because in serveral checkuser reports magnus just have had 1 IP-adress.

Summarized: There is NO technical evidence that BastardRoyale is magnus. (Even the browser information/operating systems/IP-range doesn't match). I'm very happy that finaly a big "case" is started to for once and ever sort out what suckpuppets are magnus'. Apoo banaan 14:12, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I spoke Magnus yesterday, and I got an E-Mail from him. He said he once told a schoolmate about Wikination, a schoolmate with racist ideas. The statement that Magnus likes the Apartheid is not true, he told me one of his South African innocent relatives was killed by blacks, and therefore he was against violence in RSA. SjorskingmaWikistad 14:18, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

I thought we agreed that this was confidential, highly personal information, Sjors. Dr. Magnus 17:36, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ït could be however possible Magnus ahd created BastardRpoyale at a different computer and used different browser for it Pierlot McCrooke 17:48, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Its true Pierlot, we are both on a different computer. You know why? Because we are two different people. You just keep trying, won't you? Little devil! Dr. Magnus 17:58, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * No Pierlot It ISN'T possible. When you are surfing on the internet at every click you make your browser request some information about your operating system. Information like: What service-pack update you you have, what version of flash that you have, what version of javascript you have, what your screen width and height is. And neither of them are linking Magnus to BR. The only way that Magnus IS Br is that Magnus left his house, drove a few kilometers and used an other computer there (and that évery time he eddited as BR..) quite unlikely isn't it? There is NO evidence, so you have to delete BR from your list. And there are many many many sockpuppets left, trust me. Apoo banaan 05:59, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * it is possible he did that. It could be that he created bastard at the neighbors computer. Bastard is too similar to magnus to be not magnus or to be not related to magnus Pierlot McCrooke 06:03, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * And every time he wants to edit he walks to the neighbours?... Apoo banaan 06:06, October 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * This has seem to gotten WAY outta hand. Putting everything aside here's what we know and we can stop talking about


 * The sockpops he created (WJ, Ani-Yusf, Blanche, Discute) He has been punished for
 * There is little but reasonalble proof he is Drabo
 * It was totally wrong for sjors to do that agreed but it made a valid point about Perius being Drabo. Tho I still knida doubt it.
 * Little but Reasonalble proof BR is Perius but In the last few days BR has not made a edit so...
 * This is all I know. Marcus Villanova 20:14, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Same story for Drabo13 here: The only way that Magnus IS Drabo13 is that Magnus left his house, drove a few kilometers more then that he drove for BR (they didn't matched eihter) and used an other computer there (and that évery time he eddited as Drabo13..) quite unlikely isn't it, again?
 * Once again, I'm NOT defending Magnus (it looks like it a bit..). I just say what the evidence is saying. I want as much as you do to know which persons are Magnus'. Blocking isn't in my mind (unless he vandalised with them, i dont know) but I want to know the motives.. Apoo banaan 06:01, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not all together thát unlikely. IPs do funny things you know. My IP sometimes puts me in Belgian Luxembourg or West Flanders - that's twice hundreds of kilometers away from where I live! If Magnus used two different computers on the same street (per manier van spreken), and one of them had the same thing my computer does, it's very plausible! Martha Van Ghent 07:38, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Lol at this VuniMonkiv
 * Let's say that Magnus is Drabo13... Then there has to be a lot more to this case. I can not imagine that he's using sockpuppets so seriously just for Wikination (a game..). Apoo banaan 13:32, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, Apoo. It's just a game. The fact that the discussion is sooo long indicates that either people take it to seriously, or, most likely, there is much debate concerning my guilt because proof is utterly lacking. If it was so extremely obvious I did all this, there would have been zero discussion; you would all unanimously agree on kicking me off and be done with it. Shall we call it a tie? There is no shame in admitting you've made a mistake, Dimitri. I made many mistakes, so I would know! Dr. Magnus 14:47, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay. This is dumb insane agreed. We're making a big deal and wasting time on an issues mainly that really should be handeled by Admins. Magnus here there can't really be a tie here but more or less a plea bargin. Even if you did nothing wrong just take a two month block. Marcus Villanova 20:36, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Haha, lol, and be a political prisoner? Or shall I sue the state? Dr. Magnus 20:40, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Dimi - Can you post the link where Drabo is on at wikipedia? Just curious trying to make my own decsion.
 * @Perius - Also the facts they have are very bad the owns that make it look evidendent are these:
 * All sockies hate pierlot automatically without reason
 * all have same writing
 * It is very wierd to have like four people join a fasicist party at the same time right that deal with...more or less...apartied, and that it's lead member is from the RSA
 * @dimi - what does it mean to be "As we all see, BastardRoyale just took over the status of User:Pierius Magnus as Pierius' main account"
 * All are great in Dutch
 * BR hasn't made an edit in the last few days...which means that's kinda true.
 * From - Marcus Villanova 20:47, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Well, this shit scares people away, thats one reason why certain people may not be active. Then again, Drabo never really was very active. Not all suspected sockies hate Pierlot, and neither do I. I never really saw him in discussion with BR, and Drabo seems to hate everybody no matter what because he is a-social. I do not know if they are all great in Dutch, if some of them are then it has to be a coinsidence. And I dount Drabo really is from South-Africa because Apoo said his IP adress came from the Netherlands. So... Dr. Magnus 20:52, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * LMAO, Drabo is definitely NOT form south africa... XD Apoo banaan 14:38, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

He is an insult to all South-Africans. Dr. Magnus 14:43, October 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Whoever drabo is he's an insult to the earth ! Marcus Villanova 23:39, October 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know magnus for a long time. I am sure he has multiple accaunts. But i have never seen him mis using this. Also i never heard Magnus talked about supporting the apartheid regime. Neither have i ever heard him talking in a positieve way about national-socialism, anitisemitism or racism. I did hear he was anti pvv wich is a dutch anti-islam/immigrant party. Futher i have not seen any proof he has a big similarity with Drabo.  Jillids 18:28, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Those are some sharp insights, Jillids. And you are completely right, of course. That is why I am confident in a good outcome. After all, we are all perfectly sound, normal, reasonable people here. Dr. Magnus 18:35, October 7, 2010 (UTC)

Train Village
We sould consider deleting it, That would be better for the wiki i think. Train vllage is not needed on this wiki. Pierlot McCrooke 15:48, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * It has been a part of our nation since 2007. Why would you want to delete something so dear to you? Dr. Magnus 15:54, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Becuase it is no longer needed and it causes conflicts Pierlot McCrooke 15:55, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * So thats why you want it to be gone? You created it, you care for it, right? So of it causes problems, solve those problems. If you have a son and he causes conflicts, would you abandon him? Or would you try to solve those problems. Think about it. Dr. Magnus 16:41, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, also I think the conflict recenly was started by you pierlot anyway so your point doesn't really make sense. Marcus Villanova 20:30, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

Immediate action
This wiki needs immediate action to stop the enormous article growth. The wiki can no longer handle it. If I spend one hour on maintenance each day, I would not be able to keep up with the new articles for years.

To Horton & Co - Stop creating new articles PLEASE.

To the others - Don't f***ing encourage them; and please help fixing those awful stubs. Select articles for deletion if they're not in order.

17:35, October 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not in the council...but it's getting way out of hand! Marcus Villanova 18:31, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay then. Marcus: talk to Horton. We need him too to stop over-editing. 20:25, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Even I've talked to him, even mailed him, I bet it'll be okay. Dr. Magnus 20:57, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll concentrate on Oceana stubs. It would be useful if we had a stub categorisation system so each of us could work on stubs of his interest. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 04:43, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. Consider yourself fully authorized to design and implement such a system. Categories could be: politics, history and heritage, culture, economy and business, etc. 09:07, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 12:51, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've just created a little example at Oceana Museum. Is it ok this way? :) --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:03, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Pierlot's advice!
This is jsut silly:If I spend one hour on maintenance each day, I would not be able to keep up with the new articles for years. Then you shouldnt be able to be admin Pierlot McCrooke 14:17, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay Pierlot your our new admin! Now start to fix all these crappy articles! Marcus Villanova 14:21, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Iam going to wikify the page lovia in pictures. But Dimitri cant be admin anymore if the wiki does have 10,000+ articles. (or dimitri should have assistance from 10 VERY ACTIVE WIKI ADDICTED admins) Pierlot McCrooke 14:25, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, but the thing is we can stop it by telling people that created the pages make them better. Marcus Villanova 14:28, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * We can do that, but what if everyone mass-creates articles. and they are good in quality? Pierlot McCrooke 14:30, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would like that but it is really not the case. Marcus Villanova 14:32, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * What a silly argument. I can't handle it, and you know why? Because I am hardly allowed to maintain a strict and efficient policy. If I could do that, and ban articles that shouldn't be here in the first place, things would go a lot smoother. 15:19, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Marcus Villanova 15:24, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * for me too. Admins should be able to delete crappy articles (after marking them for deletion of course). If someone disagrees he/she should complain with the Site Council. Let the Council be a protective mechanism in stead of having it to ratify every move of the admins, prolonging the clean-up process. 09:47, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd say that if the editor of the page is known to be fixing up his trash articles, he should be informed before deleting the page. Then you don't have typical delete-restore actions. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 09:54, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, that is what the marked-for-deletion-period could be used for. I just don't want administrative actions being postponed because we are waiting for the Council's approval. 10:07, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * How about a stop from creating articles for about a week? We could just forbid anyone from writing any articles for one week. In this week we should all work on getting rid of the nonsense and the bad articles. There must be a button that prevents new pages from being created and if there is none then just delete every new page during this week (or as long as it takes to fix things). Dr. Magnus 11:15, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * We just all need to do a little effort when writing a new article. Always ask yourself 'is this a valuable article?' Try to finish it within a reasonable period of time and make sure the quality is sufficiently high. We don't need a stop on articles, we just need good articles. 11:50, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * They are being created in such a high rate we need a stop. Not a long stop, just a week or so. Dr. Magnus 11:54, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * . That's demotivating people. Just create less, people should do it from themselves. If someone creates a very good, long article he will be blocked? Very bad idea... What we need is a stub creation stop. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 13:35, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * I did mean stubs, in fact, should have beem more specific. Dr. Magnus 13:38, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Should I delete my stubs then? Hillbilly Boy 13:43, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * No :) 15:34, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

Census: another take
It would like to introduce another take on the concept of censuses in Lovia. Since the Libertas days (OWTB, Yuri, Martha and others will still know that), we've been counting users to know how many people lived in a neighborhood. On Wikination then, we introduced a multiplication model. So if there were 5 actual users with a house in some town, we multiplied 5 by another number, and we would get a nice figure somewhere in the hundreds or thousands. That's been nice for a while.

On the other hand, there's fairly little use in that, isn't it? If I move out of two NC neighborhoods, there are suddenly several hundreds Noble Citiers less. Weird.

What I propose, is another take on getting a figure. I propose that we use fictional figures, based on what seems logical. Let's say that the Secretary of Whatever calculated the number of inhabitants by city, town and hamlet every six months. We could get our population to increase at a normal, yet steady pace - which would make Lovia a bit more realistic (face it: million-dollar companies in a nation with only 20,000 inhabitants!).

Since this is largely a site matter, I would like to discuss this with the site community. If we approve on this, it's up to Congress to write a bill settling the fictional side of this deal: including a cause about who should regulate the census, and so.

15:34, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * . If I read "tussen de regeltjes door" I see that you plan to increase the number of inhabitants rapidly. This can't be done, because the entire history of Lovia has already been written down on a few thousand inhabitants. Also, I like the concept of a small state where everybody knows eachother. I'm sorry, but I don't think this is a good idea. Though there is a change needed in the current census system. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 17:53, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * A thing we could do to make the system look more realistic is taking the old figures of 2009 as a standard and then add up the number of sold homes, f.e. for Hurb: 2649+(27×50)=2649+1000+350=3649+350=3999. This makes it grow less. Of course we could also take the figures of now with the old system and then count up 10 for each sold home or so. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:03, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's okay to read between the lines, but it seems as though we speak different tongues. Here's why:
 * I am not going to do anything. I am not in the government, and I will not be appointed to do the censuses.
 * I don't intend to raise our population rapidly. What I intended by proposing this, is that we have our demography under control. That we can slightly raise the population if we write about "an immigration wave from here or there" or slightly drop it when Bucu claims Oceanans were running off massively :p (joke).
 * Calculating sucks. Look at the most recent elections: all of a sudden, all communists live in Seven - the least densely populated state. Are we really willing to indicate that "all of a sudden, Seven's population grew massively due to communist propaganda"?
 * It would make sense, on the other hand, if we (and that could be a democratic process) could add concrete, credible figures to our demography. It would give us a chance to make graphs about religion, language, family income, etc. I believe that would be a great gift to articles like Religion or Language in Lovia. 18:16, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I actually see the wisdom in gradually expanding our population. Since our history isn't very clear it would not prove to be very difficult to change it a little bit. After all those million dollar companies, epic novels and the endless list of historical figures and celebrities would be insane otherwise. If we do not expand our population now, soon over 10% of the population will have his or her own article. It's ridiculous. Multiplying the number by five makes sense; let's say a few thousend settlers moved to Lovia in the late 19th century and many more in the years following. Then naturally we would have much more inhabitants right now, because the fertility rate in those days was much higher then it is today. For the sake of reality, expanding our population seems to me like a good idea and by far the wisest thing to do. Dr. Magnus 18:17, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Correction: I did not propose to expand our population. What I wish, is to have a way of coming up with credible figures of our population, and thus being able to control our population growth. We could make it grow slightly, as it normally would, of course. But no rapid expansion: I don't want 35,000 thousand Lovians by next year and 100,000 by 2012. 18:19, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

I'm okay as long as the numbers stay somewhat like they're now, so 4.000 Oceana people, 25.000 Lovians in total and so on. --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:26, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, I didn't intend anything else . Let's say our maximum yearly growth ratio would be about 8 or 10%? 18:34, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * And the maximum decrease ratio? :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:35, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Depends on what Bucu writes in The Quotidienne ;) 18:37, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok :P As long as they take in mind that Catholics and Protestants have the highest birth rates in the Netherlands (so, also in Lovia :P) I think we're doing great :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:38, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Haha . Be careful 'cuz I expect the Communists to start a baby boom program soon :p 18:39, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, left people in America (so, also in Lovia :P) usually support things like this :P --O u WTBsjrief-mich 18:41, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

Clarification

 * "Article 11 (the Secondary Education Act) preserves the right for schools to provide doctrinal classes for no more than one hour per week in high schools. Article 11.3.3.2.1 states that no extremist views may be taught."

I would like some clarification into the matter. What exactly would you understand by what you call doctrinal classes, and is this article purely written against such classes in the religious sense but also is against atheist doctrinal classes? Also I would like to know your definition of extremism and what you would call “extremist views” that may not be taught. Got this from Religion in Lovia. Dr. Magnus 18:24, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Doctrinal classes would be defined as classes devoted to one system of beliefs. In high school (a Catholic high school, that is), I was taught "godsdienst." Originally, as you know, that course was all about the Bible, Jesus and Roman Catholicism. Thát would be a doctrinal class. What we actually were taught, was a mix of psychology, sociology and Bible shit. That would be a partially doctrinal class, I guess. You understand my point? I'm sorry for being unclear here.
 * If an atheist teacher tells their children they must believe Dawkins and burn their family Bibles, then yes, those classes are forbidden.
 * The REAC is the body that decides whether a class is extremist or not. You'll probably find a great definition on Wikipedia. 18:33, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Obviously, for the sake of being neutral, children at schools will be taught both the theories of creationism aswell as the evolution theory. They will be taught about the origins and beliefs of christians, muslims, humanists and atheists alike. What is right and what is wrong is left in the middle. This would be on an average, open school. I suppose there are also schools that offer religious education, as there are in any nation. Those schools should be free to offer religiously influenced education, as they are in the Netherlands. In fact, in the Netherlands Christian schools may forbid female and homosexual teachers if they choose not to allow them. Parents have the choice to send their kids to whatever school they like. Now that is what I call freedom of speech. Dr. Magnus 18:42, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course they will be taught all theories; but what a MIND-BOGGLING IDEA to "leave in the middle" what's right and wrong !?!? So you want us to teach them that cell phones were invented in the previous century (one theory) and ALSO that they were invented by The Giant Spaghetti Dimitri-Liking Monster (not so true theory)? WTF. Then we could better move back into our caves........ 19:28, November 3, 2010 (UTC)